To what extent is continuity jettisoned in Enterprise?

[Kazeite]

In the very first Enterprise episode, Ambassador Soval has said, that the Klingons would send a whole fleet to Earth besause the incident with Klaang.

And in "Judgement" Archer wasn't sentenced to death precisely because of "his actions assisting the Klingon people."

What you have is a supposition from Vulcan point of view.

What I have is a direct statement from Klingon point of view. Prior to "Judgement" they saw prior Archer actions as assistance, not as an act of war.

I think, that he could have wanted this only because he knows, that the "peace" between Earth and the Klingons is very fragile.

Perhaps, but it's irrelevant - I'm not saying that Klingons and Earth became best buddies in ENT. But without any additional acts of aggresion (like, Malik's attacks) the Klingons would've no reason to attack Earth.

[Cock_Knocker]

I can't justify anything in Enterprise, since continuity is completely jettisoned, (with regards to TOS)

I have read such sentiments again and again.

But I haven't noticed an unsually strong violence of continuity in comparison to other Star Trek serieses.

To what extent is continuity jettisoned in Enterprise?

What exactly conflict with the earlier shooted serieses, which are set in a later timeline?

I'll repost my last response from the thread the OP is taken from:

I'm talking about completely ignoring everything TOS said about starfleet ships from 100 years ago, including them being crude, atomic powered, and having no visual ship-to-ship communication ("Balance of Terror"). Enterprise completely ignores this, and gives us a ship that looks more advanced than the E-D in TNG.

Even in Kirk's time, viewers were sticking out of consoles on goosenecks, and data was printed on regular paper when regurgitated from the computer.

[Cock_Knocker]

From "Balance Of Terror":

Referring to the map on your screens, you will note beyond our vessel a line of Earth outpost stations. Constructed on asteroids, they monitor the Neutral Zone established by treaty
after the Earth-Romulan conflict a century ago.

As you may recall, this conflict was fought, by standards today, with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels
which allowed no quarter, no captives, nor was there even ship-to-ship visual communication. Therefore, no human, Romulan, or ally
has ever seen the other. Earth believes the Romulans to be warlike,
cruel, treacherous, and only the Romulans know what they think of Earth.

The treaty, set by sub-space radio, established this Neutral Zone,
entry into which by either side would constitute an act of war. The treaty has been unbroken since that time.

[GStone]

I can't justify anything in Enterprise, since continuity is completely jettisoned, (with regards to TOS)

I have read such sentiments again and again.

But I haven't noticed an unsually strong violence of continuity in comparison to other Star Trek serieses.

To what extent is continuity jettisoned in Enterprise?

What exactly conflict with the earlier shooted serieses, which are set in a later timeline?

I'll repost my last response from the thread the OP is taken from:

I'm talking about completely ignoring everything TOS said about starfleet ships from 100 years ago, including them being crude, atomic powered, and having no visual ship-to-ship communication ("Balance of Terror"). Enterprise completely ignores this, and gives us a ship that looks more advanced than the E-D in TNG.

Even in Kirk's time, viewers were sticking out of consoles on goosenecks, and data was printed on regular paper when regurgitated from the computer.

We should all keep in mind the effect of FC. During a pre-flight check, Riker is telling Cochran that there are people on the moon. He could have said something else innocuous to him. There are also all those Enterprise crew people talking to those helping Cochran who may have heard one of them say something about the Enterprise. The changes could have even been effected because of Geordie. You've got Barclay talking to Geordie about substitutions and Cochran could have asked about some things. Geordie may have even let things slip, just as he did about the statue because he was star struck. Even Barclay may have said something, if Cochran prodded him a little.

There was a lot of damage that needed to be compensated for, so something could have come from the time they were doing that. Cochran may have had inspirations from working with the E-E crew and jotted things down that he and others figured out how to do.

[Who is like God arbour]

I think, that he could have wanted this only because he knows, that the "peace" between Earth and the Klingons is very fragile.

Perhaps, but it's irrelevant - I'm not saying that Klingons and Earth became best buddies in ENT. But without any additional acts of aggresion (like, Malik's attacks) the Klingons would've no reason to attack Earth.

I think, it is not irrelevant. If the First Contact was made accordingly by TNG First Contact protocols, they would have established a better diplomatic contact.

With a better diplomatic contact, the reason, why it came to the war at last, wouldn't have been sufficient.

The war could have been avoided. I think, that is, what Picard has meant.

I'll repost my last response from the thread the OP is taken from:

I'm talking about completely ignoring everything TOS said about starfleet ships from 100 years ago, including them being crude, atomic powered, and having no visual ship-to-ship communication ("Balance of Terror"). Enterprise completely ignores this, and gives us a ship that looks more advanced than the E-D in TNG.

Even in Kirk's time, viewers were sticking out of consoles on goosenecks, and data was printed on regular paper when regurgitated from the computer.

No: Refreshing, actually. I can't justify anything in Enterprise, since continuity is completely jettisoned, (with regards to TOS) but these shot of Vulcan matching TAS is a huge nod to fans.

Referring to the map on your screens, you will note beyond our vessel a line of Earth outpost stations. Constructed on asteroids, they monitor the Neutral Zone established by treaty
after the Earth-Romulan conflict a century ago.

As you may recall, this conflict was fought, by standards today, with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels
which allowed no quarter, no captives, nor was there even ship-to-ship visual communication. Therefore, no human, Romulan, or ally
has ever seen the other. Earth believes the Romulans to be warlike,
cruel, treacherous, and only the Romulans know what they think of Earth.

The treaty, set by sub-space radio, established this Neutral Zone,
entry into which by either side would constitute an act of war. The treaty has been unbroken since that time.

and

Invisibility is theoretically possible, Captain--
selectively bending light.
But the power cost is enormous.
They may have solved that.
Continuing to challenge. Still no response.
Discontinue.
Contact remaining outposts.
Have them signal us
any sightings or sensor readings in their area.
Blip has changed its heading.
And in a leisurely maneuver.
They may not be aware of us.
Their invisibility screen may work both ways.
With that kind of power consumption,
they may not be able to see us.

OK, there is no other exegesis.

I concede, that this is a discontinuity between Enterprise and TOS.

I have never doubted, that there is discontinuity. It is in the whole Star Trek, even within individually serieses.

But is in Enterprise discontinuity so bad, that it is justified to say, that it jettisoned continuity completely?




Besides, GStone has a good argument:

We should all keep in mind the effect of FC. During a pre-flight check, Riker is telling Cochran that there are people on the moon. He could have said something else innocuous to him. There are also all those Enterprise crew people talking to those helping Cochran who may have heard one of them say something about the Enterprise. The changes could have even been effected because of Geordie. You've got Barclay talking to Geordie about substitutions and Cochran could have asked about some things. Geordie may have even let things slip, just as he did about the statue because he was star struck. Even Barclay may have said something, if Cochran prodded him a little.

There was a lot of damage that needed to be compensated for, so something could have come from the time they were doing that. Cochran may have had inspirations from working with the E-E crew and jotted things down that he and others figured out how to do.

[Cock_Knocker]

Besides, GStone has a good argument:

Cochran may have had inspirations from working with the E-E crew and jotted things down that he and others figured out how too.

Sorry, but I don't buy it. Tech has to come from somewhere; has to be invented, tried, improved upon. You can't discuss jets in front of the Wright brothers, then expect F-16's to be developed nearly a century before they actually were. You can't let cell phones slip in front of Edison or Bell then expect to see people talking to each other on bricks in the 20's.

Besides, if we follow Gstone's theory, wouldn't 24th century tech be radically advanced by the time Picard and co. return to it at the end of FC?

[GStone]

Of course the tech has to come from somewhere. Cochran invented the tech for Earth that's used as an underlying principle in many 24th century tech. Communications with video and audio over FTL speeds and distances. They've got it. It's called warp. A warp field surrounding the sensor/video/audio energy. What's a viewscreen? A big honkin' computer screen. What's a warp core? A matter-antimatter reaction system. What else is needed? Conduits- it probably isn't as strong as the stuff used by the E-E, but it isn't necesasry to have something like that. Fields to help guide- we've gt that today with particle accelerators.

Besides, the Akiraprise wasn't made till like a century after FC. Much of what would have been the influence would have been in basic application ideas, not so much schematics. The warp core of the Akiraprise looks nothing like any core of the 24th century.

Plus, sparking ideas for applications isn't necessarily gonna accelerate a technology's advancement. It's less about schematic design and more about combine this with that. Not that big a change. They weren't given any new devices anyway. The E-E crew had to MacGuyver replacements with what they had. The underlying principles' ideas haven't changed that much.

They might have made something almost as efficient as what's on the E-E, but it would have been so much more massive than what could have fit into the Pheonix. So, it's much less powerful because you are using less items, especially when you are not using pieces from the 24th century, but from post WW3 Earth and ones only found at that campsite.

Take computer evolution. There is a limit to how small you can make things. Take what's known now of electronics building and give it to the 1960s. Now, try to make what we have with what they got. It'd be damn hard, I'll tell you. Even if they had a very exacting detailed schematics of our modern tech, it'd still take them a long time to make devices that would even shorten computer evolution by a couple decades.

So, yes, some time is shaved off, but it isn't by much because of the surrounding tehcnology base of the rest of the civilization. Plus, add in the fact we're dealing with a post WW3 place where much of the Earth population and many of its resources are destroyed and you're gonna have a much longer time on your hands. Add in other races that are more advanced that don't wanna be as willing to share their ideas and some might be and you're still gonna be stuck for a while.

[Nonamer]

OK, there is no other exegesis.

I concede, that this is a discontinuity between Enterprise and TOS.

I have never doubted, that there is discontinuity. It is in the whole Star Trek, even within individually serieses.

But is in Enterprise discontinuity so bad, that it is justified to say, that it jettisoned continuity completely?

Balance of Terror is one of the most important episodes in TOS and the cloak device is one of the most crucial plot devices in it. Through dirt at critical historical events doesn't bode well for the whole series.

[Kazeite]

I think, it is not irrelevant. If the First Contact was made accordingly by TNG First Contact protocols, they would have established a better diplomatic contact.

With a better diplomatic contact, the reason, why it came to the war at last, wouldn't have been sufficient.

So you mantain that if UFP had better understanding of the Klingons, it could've avoided the war? But it's not how it happened in ENT - the hostilities started with NX-01 crew knowingly breaking Klingon law in order to spring Archer from Rura Penthe. It wasn't any sort of misunderstanding.

[Who is like God arbour]

Besides, GStone has a good argument:

Cochran may have had inspirations from working with the E-E crew and jotted things down that he and others figured out how too.

Sorry, but I don't buy it. Tech has to come from somewhere; has to be invented, tried, improved upon. You can't discuss jets in front of the Wright brothers, then expect F-16's to be developed nearly a century before they actually were. You can't let cell phones slip in front of Edison or Bell then expect to see people talking to each other on bricks in the 20's.

I think, that are bad examples.

The functional principle of a jet engine has nothing to do with that of an air screw engine and the functional principle of a wireless cell phone has nothing to do with that of a telephone from Bell.

But the whole warp engine is based on Chochranes concept. There is not a new concept. It is only improved. And you could discuss such an improvement and expext, that Chochrane could be able to understand you. (That's why a good Starfleet Officer should not discuss such improvements in front of Chochrane).

And the technological progress accelerates more and more and it is easier to research, if the outcome is known.

Besides, if we follow Gstone's theory, wouldn't 24th century tech be radically advanced by the time Picard and co. return to it at the end of FC?

Not necessarily.

Through the intervention in the timeline, there could be a faster technological progress in the beginnig. But the more the change in timeline advances in time, the more it decrease and approaches the condition of the original timeline.

Later technological progress of the UFP could depend on circumstances, which has only little to do with Chochrane.

(I hope, my english mumbo-jumbo is somewhat understandable. Fell free to correct me.)

[Who is like God arbour]

Balance of Terror is one of the most important episodes in TOS and the cloak device is one of the most crucial plot devices in it. Through dirt at critical historical events doesn't bode well for the whole series.

Sure, it is a good episode.

But why is it "one of the most important episodes in TOS"?

There are no far-ranging incidents, without which the rest of Star Trek would be ununderstandable.

You could have never seen this episode and your understanding of Star Trek wouldn't have chanced drastically.

[GStone]

Also technology could be one way and changed because it is thought to be better another way during the times of that era and then, there's the 'retro look' that's combined with something modern.

Sometimes, some people feel like doing their aesthetics different before switching back and changing the original a little.

[Who is like God arbour]

So you mantain that if UFP had better understanding of the Klingons, it could've avoided the war? But it's not how it happened in ENT - the hostilities started with NX-01 crew knowingly breaking Klingon law in order to spring Archer from Rura Penthe. It wasn't any sort of misunderstanding.

If they (Starfleet - not the UFP) would have had a better understanding of the Klingons, they could have had established better diplomatic contacts.

Maybe then, there would be no reason for the NX-01 crew to "knowingly breaking Klingon law in order to spring Archer from Rura Penthe".

Maybe the Klingons would understand, that the acts of the crew of one ship is not attributable to the whole mankind.



Hey, I try only to find an explanation.

Sure, it is easier to throw the whole Enterprise series away because there are some inconsistencies. But then, you have to throw away TNG, DS9, Vovager and even some parts of TOS itself too.

I think, one should try to find an explanation at first.

And only if that is not possible, one can debate, which event supersede another event.

For example, who says, that TOS is higher ranking than Enterprise?
A newer statement supersede usually an older statement.

Only canon policy could say, that TOS from Roddenberry itself is higher ranking than Enterprise. But the canon policy of Paramount is worth a debate for itself.

[Mike DiCenso]

In which epidode?

Do you have a quote?

I want to see, that there is no other exegesis. "Theoretical" could refer to the operating mode and not to its existence.

Balance of Terror. You may wish to examine this portion of the transcript:

Invisibility is theoretically possible, Captain--
selectively bending light.
But the power cost is enormous.
They may have solved that.
Continuing to challenge. Still no response.
Discontinue.
Contact remaining outposts.
Have them signal us
any sightings or sensor readings in their area.
Blip has changed its heading.
And in a leisurely maneuver.
They may not be aware of us.
Their invisibility screen may work both ways.
With that kind of power consumption,
they may not be able to see us.

This indicates very strongly that no cloak had been deployed prior to this - not, in any case, anywhere the Federation could see.

Just a point of order here; the Romulan cloaks of "Minefield" were quite nicely retconned in the 4th season into being holographic in nature. So what Spock is saying in BoT, is correct, from that certain perspective. The remaining issue is the Suliban cloaks. But those particular cloaks are part of the Temporal Cold War, and may have either disappeared as a result of the events in "Stormfront, Part II", or knowledge of their existance suppressed by the nascent Section 31.
-Mike

[GStone]

I've yet to see the episode with the 31st century quantum beacon, but based on the description at memory-alpha, the suliban cloaks weren't space-time warping cloaks. They were material property altering cloaks, possibly to allow various forms of energy to pass through them.

I can't be certain if they just guessed where to point the beacon or not till I see the episode and I'm hoping it's not one of those that I've missed, as they've been showing them on scifi.

Property altering cloaks makes me think of the romulan and Federation phase cloaks. Both needed the device that made the field to maintain it, but I would wager that they worked on different principles. I get the feeling that the romulan/federation ones may have been based more on transporter-like effects. The suliban one makes me feel that they were messing in another section of physics that didn't use the transporter physics section. They just don't feel like they were using the same underlying ideas, based on what I've read on memory-alpha, though the entry for the quantum beacon may have talked about the process of creating the beacon and not how it operated to penetrate the cloak.