SWST wrote:Wait...
So your entire calculation is based on the assumption that no more than five minutes of a timeskip occurred between scenes just because you say so?
No. As I said previously:
It doesn't work that way. Halfway across the galaxy has not quantified values, it be anything since we don't know the size of the galaxy at G-level. Conversely Padme gives us a very specific distance, less than a parsec, and we have a rough timeline. Here starting at 1:26:24 they zip into the sky and at 1:31:32 they arrive in system for a bare bones, absolute minimum of five minutes and this involves Palpy using forces powers to teleport thousands of senators into the senate who in turn are bowled over by thirty seconds of Jar-Jar gibberish.
from
here again to you five minutes is the absolute minimum and assumes Palpy rounded up everyone for an emergency session and Jar-Jar gave a crowd pleasing speech in five minutes.
Do you realize that assumptions of a lack of scene cuts could give Wars acceleration figures as high as ten thousand Gs? After all, the capital ship that Obi Wan's starfighter parks in goes from ground to far past orbit in what appears to be seconds.
Do I realize certain sects of Warsies try to claim every cut between scenes of action is a literal transition of time without skips to try and argue that the ships gracefully posing for the camera are actually super fast? Yes. But that doesn't have anything to do with my argument, going with the absolute highest number for FTL for the G-canon example as possible, so I fail to see any merit.
In other words, potential scene cuts = ambiguity, unless if you can establish reasonable upper limits on the possible length of said cuts.
So you are arguing more time elapsed which slows down the figure?
If that were true, then it would have taken Darth Maul months or years to reach Tatooine from Coruscant, which was "halfway across the galaxy" by your same event. Reality: he reached Tatooine in under half a day.
No. It simply means the Galaxy is small enough to cross in a day at 100,000c. Again going by the highest canon.
No, the OP merely gives you the industrial backing of the entire Federation, not the ability to magically implement experimental technology across the entire starfleet in an arbitrary set of time, on a whim.
The technology is given, it is not experimental as per the OP. However if you disagree with my interpetation feel free to speak with it to Breetia.
The Voyager being able to do so does not imply an ability to mass install it.
Voyager built one on their own. Let me stress that again. They built it without Starfleet support. In a matter of days. The only handicap was that Voyager couldn't perfect the technology on their own but by OP that has been taken care of.
First: it appears as though Trinoya was wrong. Based on the above, the torpedos were still equipped with their standard yield, and they merely added in triliphium.
Okay? Its the trilithium resin which caused the fifty years of scorched earth which is all I care about. Oh and its trilithium. Copy and past it if you can't spell.
Second: even if we assume that triliphium available to the USS defiant can by extension be made available to the entire starfleet, they cannot penetrate planetary shields, and are thus useless
Here TNG Starship Mine.
KELSEY: It's not us I'm worried about, it's that storage unit. I want the trilithium resin in there and secured before the sweep gets here. I don't want to take any chances.
From a galaxy class starship. So we can drop Defiant being some special case. And as for shields on the few worlds which have planatary shields that might become an issue.
Starcharting would take centuries; the Federation has charted 11% or so of their galaxy by The Next Generation.
And like thirteen percent in the next year as Mike informed you.
Of course, it can be argued that they eventually charted even more
No. Not argued. It is FACT that they did as you are aware.
but it still remains a fact that, after three centuries, they have not completely charted out the Milky Way. How would they chart out the entire Star Wars galaxy in your lifetime?
because the time to do it is decreasing at a rapid rate? Because slipstream is a leap forward in propulsion technology? And of course you ignored everything else just to try and focus on star charting.
And each ship is going to magically know where Wars's planets are
Again I have stated magic is not involved nor have you actually replied to my statement on how I plan to obtain maps of the planets.
get past all orbital defenses
Which amounts to little and is unlikely to be able to intercept a ship which just drops out of slipstream launches a missile and jumps back to FTL. Not to mention diverting your forces to guard all of your worlds is what I want you to do.
and a planetary shield now?
Few planets it appears have a planetary shield. And it is debateable if it could be raised in time or not to prevent the attack regardless.
Nope. Hoth had a theater shield in ESB.
Hoth was an important rebel base and a theater shield is a far cry from a planatary shield.
Planetary shields were common across all important planets already; Coruscant, Kamino, even Naboo after AotC.
Coruscant does not have a planatary shield as of ROTS. Kamino does not have a plantary shield as of Arc Troopers season 3 of the Clone Wars. Naboo I don't have data on however per ROTS novel:
page 178" wrote:""Utapau," Grievous said slowly, as though explaining to a child, "is a hostile planet under military occupation. It was never intended to be more than a stopgap, while the defenses of the base on Mustafar were completed. Now that they are, Mustafar is the most secure planet in the galaxy. The stronghold prepared for you can withstand the entire Republic Navy."
"It should," Gunray muttered. "Construction nearly bankrupted the Trade Federation! [...]
"The base is secure. It can stand against a thousand Jedi. Ten thousand.
Is a very fortified place and there is naught mention or implication of a planatary shield in either the movie or the novel. So I highly doubt Naboo realy has plantary shields. I also doubt my forces will run into them in any signifigant number.
But please, feel free to provide evidence that planetary shields are momentously expensive.
The fact your suggesting building heavily specilied systems, mulitple per planet, to combat a piece of stock issued torpedo with industrail waste strapped to it. The fact that your suggesting a massive undertaking of retrofitting a million worlds on the fly.
Raise in time? Since when does it take any significant amount of time to raise a shield? Where are you getting this from?
You have to detect the ship, determin it is a threat and raise shields. My ship just has to drop out and fire. If I fail I'm out a torpedo. If you fail you out a planet. I can live with those odds.
avoided extensively discussing firepower for a reason, you know.
Actually you brought it up. Imply six ships have more firepower than the entire navy.
But if you want to get into the debate again, the imperial fleet circumnavigates Endor in less than a minute in RotJ, requiring engine powers on ICS levels anyway.
Or they hyperjump. We don't see the scene in question through I'm not sure where your getting the time table from. We simply know the fleet ending up in position to trap the rebel fleet between the Death Star.
Additionally, the Executor withstood three ISD's exiting hyperspace at C-fractional speeds
Where? I don't remember many ISDs ramming the Executor in ROTJ or TESB, but I do remember that asteriod owning one of those vaunted ISDs and it wasn't doing fractions of high c.
ships are relativistic upon exiting hyperspace; can be observed in movies
And this is baded off of?
confirmed in Star by Star
Quote please?
The Executor alone is equivalent to 100
Not judging by ROTJ where it got KO'ed by the Rebel fleet, noticably less than a hundred ships, I'd rather take a couple dozen ISDs if I had the choice.
theater shield is thousands of times smaller than a planetary shield
Which would only make the planetary shield weaker if you keep the same number of power sources. If there are additional, which I believe is the case since War Planetary shields are essentially theather shields linked togather, than speaking of size is immaterial.
and can withstand said firepower indefinitely
It could withstand any bombardment from six ships, one admittedly very big, that is a far cry that those ships could pound on it for all of time without fail.
Why not? They build a Death Star twice the size of the original (RotS novel) in secret, in the outer rim, in 2 years (or 6 months, depending on the source). So in six months, they can build a Death Star half the size of the original, in secret, in the outer rim anyhow.
One being secret and on the outer rim means nothing. It has zero bearing to how much of the Empire was focused on building the white elephants. Two has anyone demostrated building fully fuctional pint sized deathstars? Three That is still six months.
...and why would the timescale be weeks or months in the first place? Once I get planetary shields up, I can turtle all I want.
Because those shields don't seem to exist in abudence, or in the upper canon at all, because they typically are kept powered down not generating twenty-four seven and on worlds like Coruscant you kinda have to import stuff just to feed your people.
Focusing to the max"? They were being built in the outer rim, in secret. Obviously, the officers were "focusing to the max". But they were building it in the most unfavorable of circumstances.
Here the DSII was quite well supplied. It was not some neglected backwater site but the personal project of the Emperor by which he was going to crush all remaining dissident to his rule.
I'm not following your reasoning here. Yes, it took them two decades to build the first Death Star; but they were building the second war, which was larger, far more rapidly.
Just pointing out G-canon 20 years to complete DSI.
Any engineer will tell you that the very first prototype is the most difficult to construct. There is no contradiction here, and there is nothing to indicate that they will still have to take 20 years to build a Death Star I, when they built the second one ten times faster.
Didn't say there was a contridiction, merely underlining these are major investments of time.
Correction: months. Just make it even smaller than the first, and actually build it publicly, in your industrial center. Doing the math, they can easily accomplish this in under half a year.
No years. Building it at Coruscant or at Endor changes nothing and making it public makes it easier for me to blow it up.
"Found"? Do you have any idea how massive space is?
Yes I do. However the Death Star II was found by the rebels in ROTJ and in the Death Star novel the DSI is assaulted by a rebel ship. So yes it is possible for the death star to be discovered before it is finished and destroyed.
Triliphium torpedos are mounted on vulnerable ships, and cannot penetrate planetary shields.
No more vulnerable than the ships you'd use to defend said planet and Plenetary shields are for all intents and purposes nonexistent.
Quite frankly, standard photon torpedos would be just as deadly to an unprotected planet anyway;
Actually no. Two torpedoes rendered an entire planet inhospitable to human life by radiation. I'd be hard pressed to have similar results using strageticly positioned warheads across the globe to generate a nuclear winter style effect.
I could use Sisko's very plan to disprove the notion that the Defiant can wipe out life on a planet through conventional firepower.
No actually. Sisko didn't want to render the planet inhospitable to Cardassions whom are immune to that radiation, merely remove the terrorists faction which had colonized it.
Meanwhile, the Death Star cannot be defeated by any conceivable fleet
Actually its armor and shielding is quite atrocious with snubfighters able to penertrate its shields and damage its outer hull,shaking crewmembers inside, it is quite defeatable by a Federation style fleet. The only way it can really win is to bypass fighting and take out the planet and jump away, through can the DS fire and immeditely make the jump to lightspeed?
it cannot be stopped by any conceivable planetary shield
Well such shieldsd as exist in C-canon Wars.
it mass scatters planets beyond recovery, instead of simply rendering them "uninhabitable".
Which is good for a terror weapon. As a weapon of war its pretty much just flash.
Too bad that I don't have to chase down your ships; I just counter-invade your planets.
My planets in the Unknown Region or my planets in the Federation proper? One of those will be hard to hit, the other nearly impossible in any considerate time or with useful strenght.
1. I addressed this in my post. Did you miss it?
No you didn't. No where have you addressed the DSI only taking up the resources for a score of Sector Groups, about 480 Star Destroyers and tens of thousands of lesser ships plus the ground forces. A drop in the bucket, even assuming you could maintain that annually it doesn't amount to anywhere near what you talk about.
2. How the hell could you argue that the Death Stars don't translate into starships by any measure? The same industry that was used to construct the Death Star can be used to build starships; you cannot handwave such a massive industrial feat just because you say-so.
Sigh once again
ISB page 11 wrote:The Death Star Project is an example of a priority sector into which the EMpire poured resources enough to have formed perhaps a score of Sector Groups
I can also point to the ISB fleet numbers, tens of thousands of Star Destroyers not millions, the Clone wars with maybe a dozen ships per side in a fleet battle, ROTJ with thirty ISDs and one SSD. Every shred of evidence suggests ships do no collorate with the DS.
3. To elaborate, the Death Star does not translate by a one to one correlation to starships, but unless if the ratio is a million to one, the point is merely splitting hairs. Oooohh, I can't get a billion frigates; I can only build one hundred million. My point is destroyed!
It is more along the lines of building a hundred frigates or one DS. Apparently Economies of scale really love Death Stars.
Sure I do. By your own admission, the timescale is weeks to months here. With shields, I can turtle inside my planets.
You are talking months to years on a good day, not the entire game is coming apart because worlds are being turned to radioactive wastelands and you have refugees pouring through the woodwork. And as for shields you have to construct them first which is another hurdle and division of resources you have to go through.
Incorrect. Look up the WEG calculations. Millions of heavy destroyers; tens of millions of smaller ships, and this is just the initial sector fleets.
That was a fan calcuation as I informed you. The WEG ISB lists 24 Star Destroyers and 1600 other combat ships per Sector Group and that there are thousands of Sector Groups. And that is the Entire naval force of the Empire as described in the ISB which is the only canon source I know of which deals with the Imperial Navy on such matters.
Mind you, even your own estimations (based on nothing whatsoever) are massively larger than Starfleet at its height.
Well actually our numbers for Starfleet are after a grueling war with the Dominion but overall yes. And its based on the ISB sourcebook a C-canon source.
Sure; but he's going to get there eventually [read: a dozen hours, or a day, based on Obi Wan's journey to the remote Kamino.]
Unless Kamino is located in some competely uncharted space in another uncharted galaxy the two events have nothing in common.
Anything particular I"m looking for? Luke appears to be a fairly regular Jedi in those quotes. He can control weak minded guards, deflect blaster bolts with his light saber etc. Nothing that I saw in a quick skim to say he could simply land on Earth without issue and kill an offical.
Of course, but with you dead, Starfleet will revert back to standard competence levels; and thus, they will die horribly.
Since Starfleet is not incompetent that is not a problem. They are high moral but that isn't an issue as per OP Starfleet chose me to run all Sherman Grant across the Galactic Alliance, my replacement will carry out those orders.
1. You have not explained how your plan will handle the installment of planetary shields.
I have explained I'll handle them by virtue of them not existing in aprecitable numbers. That to undertake the effort to build them over a multitude of planets is more likely to drain away precious resources then accomplish anything productive.
2. You have not explained how your plan will withstand a counter-invasion by either the Death Star
Such a device won't exist for any aprectiable amount of time.
or a mass invasion; the latter of which can employ massed BDZ's; even figurative interpretations meaning that I can do the exact same thing that your torpedos can, but with more ships, and against fewer planets.
Well for starters Hyperdrives is useless without charted hyperlanes so an invasion of the Federation proper is almost impossible. Second my entire plan is to infflict such destruction, so fast and across such a breadth you will be hard pressed to marshal and deploy such formations for any duty. But obviously as Subcommander Tyler highlighted the plan does hinge on the Imperial Starfleets being tied down on defense.
3. You have not explained how the Federation will deal with the Alliance's massively larger industrial base;
Your kidding. By evading it and stretching it thin across its own territory perhaps?
handwaving the Death Star for no reason will get you nowhere (and it's only the most cited example of industrial might, hardly the only),
I didn't handwave I presented clear evidence, multple times across the times we've debated, on why the Death Stars don't work with the rest of the fleet. And if you have other examples you are free to provide them.
and such a disparity will get exponentially more difficult to handle.
One there is no evidence the Star Wars industry can grow exponentially, nor that the Federation industry couldn't grow proportionally to match. Second there are indications the Empire was pushing its industry as much as it could, with the DS project sucking down resources, and it wasn't building ginormouse battlefleets. Third the war is likely to be over long before any of this industrial ramp up could hope to go into effect.
4. Depending on which year this Galactic Alliance is, I could be cruel and mention Centerpoint Station, which was cracked by scientists by LotF. I just could.
Centerpoint Station is an interesting nut to crack no two ways about it. Depending on the era you could certainly bring it into play and I would certainly try and take it out again. Impartially it likely would be your best hope of inflicting damage to the Federation, assuming it can be transfered into the Milky Way galaxy, but at best all you could achieve is MAD.