ST-v-SW.net update and a question

[AnonymousRedShirtEnsign]

G2k updated his two of the pages on his site.

Star Wars Weapons Range
http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWwarsrange.html

and the Base Delta Zero page
http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWbd0.html

In the SW weapon range page he points out...

One curiosity is why missiles are not more heavily favored in Star Wars.

I would say they primarily use TLs for the same reason the US Navy will use railguns when they can. Money. Missiles cost a lot more than canon rounds or energy weapons.

Any thoughts on the issue, or the rather generous ISD weapons range he has.

[Jedi Master Spock]

I'll point out that the difference between the 5500 km theoretical range against other similar vessels based on angular resolution and a ~1000 km practical range can be explained with bolt speed/firing delays and vessel movement.

As far as the focus of the beam, or its ability to remain coherent, the fact that orbital bombardment would been possible in TESB if the shield had not been up indicates that ISDs are capable of attacking stationary targets from a long ways off.

[AnonymousRedShirtEnsign]

My problem comes from the ISDs not shooting the Falcon when it is in its dive and they are significantly closer than 75 km. Also Darkstar treats the ISD profile like a 1.6 km * 1.6 km square, like the TIE fighter's 6*6m dimensions. There is also the fact that the Imperial fleet at Endor is well within visual range of the Rebels and it states as being in position to attack, so when we see the Falcon pull up from the DS2 and come about (with presumably most of the fleet behind her) and faces the ISDs (which are still maneuvering into position) they are only about 200 km away. As for the planetary bombardment, it need not be a precise thing, and it is against a stationary target, and the atmosphere only extends out ~100 km (assuming an Earth like atmosphere, which may be generous given Hoth's climate). So I maintain that ~1000 km ISD v ISD weapon range is generous.

[Jedi Master Spock]

The base may be a stationary target that a sustained barrage of near-misses would take care of, but it's also clear the ion cannon was able to fire on the ISDs with no small amount of accuracy. It is not at all strange to suggest the ISDs were on the order of ~5500 km from the surface of Hoth.

[Mike DiCenso]

AnonymousRedShirtEnsign wrote:

My problem comes from the ISDs not shooting the Falcon when it is in its dive and they are significantly closer than 75 km. Also Darkstar treats the ISD profile like a 1.6 km * 1.6 km square, like the TIE fighter's 6*6m dimensions.

There's any number of explanations, including the fact that the three ISDs in that scene were all in the midst of trying to avoid colliding with each other.

Compare this later on to the Falcon/Avenger chase, where we see the ISD fire on the Falcon while diving "down" away from it at one point.

AnonymousRedShirtEnsign wrote:
There is also the fact that the Imperial fleet at Endor is well within visual range of the Rebels and it states as being in position to attack, so when we see the Falcon pull up from the DS2 and come about (with presumably most of the fleet behind her) and faces the ISDs (which are still maneuvering into position) they are only about 200 km away. As for the planetary bombardment, it need not be a precise thing, and it is against a stationary target, and the atmosphere only extends out ~100 km (assuming an Earth like atmosphere, which may be generous given Hoth's climate). So I maintain that ~1000 km ISD v ISD weapon range is generous.

I might argue in return that "attack position" is not necessarily the same as "attack range". That might simply be the optimum point for where the Imperial's fleet could begin attacking the Rebel fleet. You can also argue the finer points, such the ability of the Imperial ships to hit the furthest Rebel fleet capital ship and fighter, or if they could hit accurately at that range, ect.

Also, given the Hoth planet curvature, several thousand km range for TLs isn't too hard to argue for, either, especially if they are not worried as much about super-precise targetting, only getting "close enough".
-Mike

[2046]

My problem comes from the ISDs not shooting the Falcon when it is in its dive and they are significantly closer than 75 km.

Do you mean that you think I was too generous or that I was using an example I ought not have due to contradictions/problems with the evidence?

I figured I was doing the former, more or less. Given that the novelization mentions them being almost in range as they "loomed ahead", some time after the initial visual contact with two bright objects, I figured they certainly had to be closer at that time. If I'd waited until right around the dive, then a Star Destroyer would've had an effective firing range against the Falcon measured in the single-digit kilometers.

Before the prequels that might've been believable, and maybe that's where some early EU authors got their ideas. But those TPM shots from the battleship would've blown that idea out of the water.

(Incidentally, I have yet to complete the Star Wars Scaling Project (where issues like the true size of the Falcon will be dealt with), but if we used a 20m figure for the Falcon's width then that example and the TPM shots from the battleship at 90km would be more consistent with one another, though they're not too terrible at all right now.)

Also Darkstar treats the ISD profile like a 1.6 km * 1.6 km square, like the TIE fighter's 6*6m dimensions.

Well, I figured I ought to be consistent. I'd heard a recent complaint that I ought to have been using the ball of the TIE cockpit as the target instead, or even the two little orange glows of the engines, but I forgot to so much as mention it when working on the page. I'm senile.

But really, I rather doubt Han was hanging out waiting to snipe the TIE with a one-shot-one-kill kind of move. He seemed in a hurry to destroy it.

There is also the fact that the Imperial fleet at Endor is well within visual range of the Rebels and it states as being in position to attack, so when we see the Falcon pull up from the DS2 and come about (with presumably most of the fleet behind her) and faces the ISDs (which are still maneuvering into position) they are only about 200 km away.

Well, the "we're in attack position now" thing could go either way, inasmuch as if we wanted to know if that was merely the rally point from which to launch the attack or a point at which they could begin firing. In any case we can't know for sure, since the whole point was to sit there and have a beer while the DS2 started pinging Rebel ships.

As for the planetary bombardment, it need not be a precise thing, and it is against a stationary target, and the atmosphere only extends out ~100 km (assuming an Earth like atmosphere, which may be generous given Hoth's climate). So I maintain that ~1000 km ISD v ISD weapon range is generous.

Ideally, I'd want my starfaring warship to be able to strike targets from geostationary orbit . . . 35000km or so . . . but an ISD would probably have trouble hitting a specific American state at that range.

I rather doubt that two ISD-type vessels would try to duke it out at 1000km . . . hence my much lower effective range estimate. At 1000km they'd barely be able to hit one another, but I'd imagine they could shoot that far and, eventually, get the guns to the right angle if they were both sitting stationary.

Planetary bombardment is a lot easier, even in the case of precision bombardment (where "precise" in this case equals "hitting some part of a desired city"). Given some setup time and an appropriate weapon we could probably do that now. Hell, we can shoot a little reflector thing Apollo astronauts left on the moon with a ground-based laser, so it really ought not be a problem, even for the seemingly-pitiful targeting of the Empire.

[AnonymousRedShirtEnsign]

The example is not contradictory, so I meant you were being overly generous. It's not that I think a TL will dissipate at 1000 kms, or that an ISD is incapable of hitting a stationary Borg Cube at that range (though it may take a little while). I just think that the effective range of SW cap ships is significantly less. For a good hit percentage against other SW ships I'd say around 50 km. Against Trek ships the lack of fast tracking turrets will definately present a problem for the Imperial fleet.

[watchdog]

I dont know if it is any use but I remember the SW visual dictionary claimed that instabilities in the weapon made targeting difficult, of course these same books claimed that clone trooper armor was white because they werent afraid of anything and wanted their enemies to see them coming.

[GStone]

I can see inherent targeting problems, since, if we assumed the gas is charged with electricity, the electrons are gonna move from side to side, like a bolt of lightning. They probably 'bottle' it to keep the zig zagging down to a minimum, so that's why we see the 'spear' shaped energy bolts. It'd also make sense of the speed of the bolts, especially for vessel weapons. SDN has a thread where someone suggests that turbolaser blasts are shells covered with energy (I haven't read the whole thing, so I don't know if that idea has been rejected by them), but it would be an interesting idea. But, we don't see any physical material, like shrapnel, when a blast hits shields or hulls. In ep 3, we see 'shell' get ejected out of the batteries along the side of an Acclimator. Besides, we've also got the ep 3 novel saying it's a plasma, so bullet turbolasers are out anyway.

Anyway, my point is that the speed they are fired is most likely because the energy bolts are just energy and arn't a solid or semi-solid, so any accelerator rings/tubes/whatever, which are to fire the plasma, can give the particles/waves energy hat has the unintended consequence of 'flying it apart'.

[Praeothmin]

At 1000km they'd barely be able to hit one another, but I'd imagine they could shoot that far and, eventually, get the guns to the right angle if they were both sitting stationary.

Considering they pobably had a 60% hit ratio against the Tantive IV in ANH, which, judgind by the ISD's size wasn't even 10 km away, I'd say their max effective range for (slow, linearly) moving objects is a lot less.

[Who is like God arbour]

As far as the focus of the beam, or its ability to remain coherent, the fact that orbital bombardment would been possible in TESB if the shield had not been up indicates that ISDs are capable of attacking stationary targets from a long ways off.

I don’t believe that the weapons-range of Star Wars ships is high enough to bombard a planet from orbit.

In Star Wars Episode 2: Attack of the Clones, there is a huge battle on Geonosis. It was shown, that the Republic Ships have been landed, before the clone troopers have attacked the droids.
And as Count Dooku has absconded, he flew by on several Trade Federation ships, which have lift off from Geonosis. But there are no Republic Ships to intercept and destroy these ships or Count Dooku.
I think, that shows, that both sides are unable to bombard the planet from orbit.

If one side would be able to do this, it would be very important to maintain the sovereignty over the space. But there was no single Republic Ship to be seen. Insofar, the movie overrules the novel.
Even if you would not be willing to bombard the planet yourself, you would have to prevent that the other side would fire out of orbit on your ground forces. And some of the shown Trade Federation ships could already have fired on the planet.

And in this situation, I see no reason, to not fire out of orbit on the adversarial ground forces, especially when they were still apart and one could fire without to risk to kill the own ground forces.
And even later, the Trade Federation would surely have no qualms to destroy their own droids, especially when they are lost anyway.
And the Republic could have attacked the landed Trade Federation ships on ground before they have lift off the planet and get dangerous. They could have had prevented, that the whole leadership circle of the separatists could have absconded with these ships. They could have maybe ended the war with it before it really has begun, if they could have captureed or killed the leadership circle.

I really see no reason, why, if an orbital bombardment would be possible, all Republic ships have been landed and no ships were in orbit to intercept and destroy enemy ships and to prevent a bombardment from these.
It would be unbelievably stupid. Unless they aren’t able to bombard a planet out of an orbit.

One could object, that in Star Wars Episode 5: The Empire strikes back, Vader and Veers have spoken of a bombardment, what was impossible due to the shield, the rebels have erected. But they haven’t said that this would be an orbital bombardment from the star destroyers. In this movie, the TIE-bomber was shown the first and last time. I think that these TIE-bombers should have bombarded the rebel base. I can’t find another explanation for its existence. In a battle in space, where it is impossible to drop a bomb due to the lack of gravitation, there would be no use for a bomber. And as a matter of fact, in no Star Wars battle ever was a bomber shown in use.

And if a capitol ship would be able to bombard a planet from orbit, there would be no need for a tiny bomber too. What could it do, what a huge capitol ship with strong shields couldn’t do? I think, it was planed, that the TIE-bomber should have bombarded the rebel base from a low altitude, but that the shield has prevented it. Not because the shield was erected so high, that the bombers couldn't get low enough.

Maybe you have arguments, which I haven’t considered yet.

[watchdog]

I finally found the full quote from the visual dictionary;

Blaster Weaponry

Common blaster weapons use high-energy gas as ammunition, activated by a power cell and converted into plasma. The plasma is released from a magnetic bottle effect to fire through collimating components as a coherent energy bolt. Inherent instabilities limit the ability to precisely aim a blaster bolt, but knowing one's weapon well can strengthen marksmanship. Plasma energy is dissipated as the bolt travels, limiting range as the energy becomes incoherent. Longer range is developed by longer blast tubes, which align the plasma energy carrier waves more closely through additional galven circuitry, lens crystals, or other collimating devices.

[GStone]

Because of these aiming problems and the heavy use of shields that don't stop solid matter, rail guns (even energized ones) coul be a good suppliment to turbolasers. A lot of junk is wasted to drift in space. Mybe mini-refineries break a lot of it down and it gets chopped into pieces and funneled to the rail guns.

[AnonymousRedShirtEnsign]

It's not that SW shields can't stop solid objects, think the corridor shields in RotS, it's just that they don't do it consistently. I do agree that rail guns or coil guns would make an excellent addition any SW ship's arsenal, and would greatly increase their combat range. Should it be assumed that the Empire's targeting capabilities are at least on par with our own? This would imply that there is something else preventing long range engagements, given that SW ships don't seem to maneuver much in combat. As watchdog pointed out the Visual Dictionary says that TLs are unstabble, and that they both disrupt accuracy and dicipate over distance. The most common rebuttle I've seen is to claim that there is so much interference due to jamming that space-time itself is distorted and that is why SW space combat seems rather pathetic.

[GStone]

That's what I mean. They rely more on ones that stop turbolasers more than not.

That's a lame rebuttal. The fighters couldn't maneuver worth shit, if that was true. Maybe the longer range engagements are limited because of power generation.