"Those fighters" were not very large nor very great in number. The "armed merchantmen" of the Trade Federation were seen outmatched substantially by the much smaller Republic assault ships and attack cruisers in ROTS and AOTC - presumably this is why the CIS moved to mostly using other ships.No not only for civilian ships. Those fighters employed by Naboo were not civilian ships. And those Trade Federation "armed merchantmen" seemed to do just fine in ROTS battle.Jedi Master Spock wrote:For civilian ships. We're not talking about building armed merchantmen and freighters, which necessarily make up the majority of ships manufactured; we're talking about dedicated warships.
There's a huge difference.
No hard evidence is needed for such a policy; the possibility would be feared even with policies explicitly against assassination.Kane Starkiller wrote:I didn't want to go into this in greater detail before since I thought the entire line of reasoning is ridiculous but you leave me no choice.
First I want evidence that the goverment of the Galactic Republic condoned assasination of it's own citizens and that this was a publicly known policy hence your claim that it was assasination that Neimodians feared.
Jedi have left body counts behind in the past. In fact, the Jedi led the army of the Republic.Kane Starkiller wrote:Secondly I want evidence that Jedi would be willing to perform such actions especially in light of Anakin's and Mace's first thought's were to capture and not kill even such dangerous Sith lords as Dooku and Sidious.
I never said it was their only means of control. The Trade Federation's best interests are not served by slagging the capital in any case; they are a commercial entity.Kane Starkiller wrote:Furthermore explain how is a goverment, whose only method of control are assasins, supposed to maintain control when Trade Federation can simply use their battleships to turn the senate hall into a molten metal lake in response to assasinations of it's leaders. More than that any private corporation could simply hire their own assasins to try and kill the senators.
Besides which, the Senate could always deny involvement, leaving the Trade Federation in a poor political situation.
A "million ISDs" are not even present in the EU. Besides, the cost per warship doesn't drop very much with the production run; the design phase isn't that pricey.Kane Starkiller wrote:8 Cyclone class ships wheigh some 3000 tons while 12 aircraft carriers wheigh over million tons. One is not as mass produced as the other.
Except of course you are again assuming that smaller ships were not mass produced thus you call them "small projects". Million ISDs are not a "small project".
Such as TNG, etc. As far as asking where the weapons and shields were when Kirk and Kim stole ships, you might consider reviewing the details of the scenario, like Scotty hacking Spacedock's computers, or how quickly Starfleet is willing to fire on its own ships.Kane Starkiller wrote:What many other examples and materials? And how does the fact that something the size of a Romulan Warbird has weapons mean that Starbase 74 has weapons? Where were those weapons and shields when Kirk and Kim stole ships?
Thee trouble is that you are again assuming that Starbase 74 and Deep Space 9 are similar. They are not. Starbase 74 is 1000 times bigger than DS9 as I already mentioned. Don't try to pretend that such difference in size means nothing. You are using DS9, a starbase the Federation specifically armed later because of it's location and strategic importance, as evidence that 1000 times larger starbases, whose only observed function so far was as drydock, have the same capabilities.
By the way "common sense" is worthless. "Common sense" was used to claim that Earth is flat. "Common sense" told people that when no forces are applied to an object it will stop moving because no one could've guessed that friction is also a force. "Common sense" was the reason no one thought that time itself will change when you approach the speed of lignt. It took extraordinary people to use their own "UNcommon sense" to make scientific breakthroughs. So I'm going to have to ask you to come up with evidence and keep your "common sense" to yourself.
As I've said before, the proceedings of the Dominion War make no sense with unarmed and unshielded stations.
You speak poorly and inaccurately of common sense. Common sense is the foundation of scientific enterprise, from defining frictional forces to affirming general relativity. Don't bad-mouth it; it represents the most reasonable conclusion from the evidence. In this case, that Federation bases have shields and weapons.
I already have. Several times.Kane Starkiller wrote:I'm simply asking you to describe a mechanism through which the "corrupt bureaucracy" can hide the fact that half of their military rescources are dissapearing.
I believe Mike DiCenso has already noted one such quote in question:Kane Starkiller wrote:By all means provide a source for your claim that cruisers patrol Tatooine only occasionally.
"It looks like an Imperial cruiser. Our passengers must be hotter than I thought."
Recall that the very presence of an Imperial cruiser around Tatooine set all Han's alarms off.
Han had already established that they really were in Alderaan's system, just unable to locate Alderaan.Kane Starkiller wrote:What does "general neighborhood of Alderaan" mean? A system is much larger than a planet and it's "neighborhood". In fact Solar system, for example, is some 15 trillion times bigger than volume of space that is defined by Moon's orbit. Not to mentioned that Alderaan was just blown up so obviously no ships would be present there.
They went down the list. Could it be from the pursuing ships? No, TIEs can't go into hyperspace. Native to the system? No, there are no Imperial bases anywhere near Alderaan. Hm, maybe it was with a convoy and got lost... it was a mystery to them until the Death Star showed up.
Not once did the possibility that this might be a fighter belonging to a ship on a regular patrol of Alderaan arise.
Either the Death Star was in a geostationary orbit (possible if Endor met the right criterion, or poorly displayed - this is one of the reasons for criticizing the 5,000 km orbit you claimed) or held up by giant repulsors - which would be cancelling the effects of Endor's gravity. The fact that the Death Star's orbit isn't decaying means that all objects in and around the Death Star don't "feel" Endor's gravity, whether through lift effects or being in a geostationary orbit.Kane Starkiller wrote:Well I have to admitt you got me there. I completley forgot about the centripetal force there but the reason for that is that I got completley exasperated with this entire line of reasoning.
The thing is I was completley concentrated on the specific DS2 case and in that case the Death Star couldn't have possibly be in free fall. First of all we know that it was protected by a shield projected from a fixed position on the surface. So if it did have a natural orbit with no usage of it's own engines it had to be in geosynchronous orbit. However geosynchronous orbit for an Earth sized planet is about 35,000km or nearly three planetary diameters which was clearly not the distance between the Death Star and Endor therefore the Death Star was not in free fall therefore it's own microgravity would've been nullified by the gravity of Endor.
Actually, we have an easier time building things in gravity. It holds things in place.Kane Starkiller wrote:However I want to further discuss your claim that Death Star's "microgravity environment" will somehow make construction easier than freefall.
First of all this supposedly useful microgravity would only "kick in" noticeably after a large portion of the Death Star was completed. In the first stages when the Death Star is still as big as an ISD-10ISDs-100ISDs-SSD-10SSDs etc. there would still be no more gravity than in usual smaller ships.
And finally what exactly is the usefulness of the microgravity? You said something to the effect of equipement not drifting away. Are you envisioning hordes of carless workers dropping their tools every which way with microgravity bringing the tools back? A simple toolbelt will prevent that. Besides I expect the Death Star to be assembled from larger pieces put together by tractor beams and gravitic equipment as described in ANH novelization. Free fall does not exert any acceleration and therefore the equipement won't go anywhere if only the workers show some care which is not exactly an unresonable assumption for a galactic civilization.
And finally free fall means that there won't be any stress on the unfinished structure and that can only be a good thing. Microgravity caused by the Death Star will exert enormous pressure on it's load bearing structure and this can only make construction much harder not easier.
Do you think we could construct those flimsy space station on Earth gravity? Do you think that "gravity helping workers not to loose their equipement" would make things easier?
At the levels of gravity we're talking about for a reasonable density of Death Star, it's not going to put "enormous pressure" on the load-bearing structure.
No, it's a very far digression.Kane Starkiller wrote:That page from what I can tell actually suggests lower orbit than 5000km which only further proves my point. And as you said the size and density of Endor won't significantly change from an Earth sized planet.
But honestly do we have to go on further into this "microgravity will somehow make Death Star's construction much easier than that of an ISD in free fall" discussion?
Everything we know today?Kane Starkiller wrote:I'm sorry but when you state that buliding large structures is easier in gravity than in free fall despite everything we know today it strikes me as if you really are not at all interested in any kind of resoned discussion.
What do you know about building? It's actually not that hard on Earth, in gravity, but it's devilishly tricky in free fall.
Not even the Jedi Council knew:Kane Starkiller wrote:I would like some evidence that senate was unaware of the creation of the clone army.
Yoda: Blind we are, if creation of this clone army we could not see.
The senators learned soon after the Council did, and promptly wanted to use the clone army.
Given it represented the sole legitimate Army of the Republic, it had better.Kane Starkiller wrote:I would also like some evidence that clone army ordered from Kamino represented a noticeable fraction of Galactic military production hence your assumption that you can use it as evidence of Emperor hiding something like half of military production for Death Star.
Only in very limited circumstances can you track freighters. "Can't nobody track another ship accurately at supralight speeds," says Solo shortly before shaking the Imps off his tail. (p94, Star Wars) In the novelization, Solo explained why the Imperial ships lost them - they can't track a ship during FTL transit.Kane Starkiller wrote:You are trying to provide real world analogy for a situation that was never seen in the real world. Namely that Empire can hide the project that takes up something like half (or more) of their military production. It doesn't matter how many systems the Empire has, we are talking about percentages. And 50% of million systems will be just as noticeable as 50% of hundred systems.
The only way you can is through tracking devices. So in order to know where a freighter really goes, you need either:
- Agents at all destinations communicating with one another.
- Pilots, navigators, and/or captains suborned on the freighters.
- Tracking devices installed on all Imperial freighters.
Not necessarily. It's very easy to attribute to assorted causes - inefficiency, bad product batches, piracy, etc - 50% loss of products. Especially when the original total isn't known.Kane Starkiller wrote:I don't know what kind of drooling idiots you think populate the Galactic Empire to think that they would buy the Rebellion stealing fifty percent of Imperial military equipment. "Um...we won't be able to build another aircraft carrier since Mafia stole 20% of our military production...yeah that's it". And such lies won't leave the Rebels frustrated, it will leave them happy since they will know the Empire is up to something.