Challenge: Invade the Star Wars galaxy

[Praeothmin]

@Praeothmin

With thanks to Mr. O this should be the quote he's pulling thousands of acclamators for Geneosis

"Jedi, move!" Mace cried, and the survivors rushed to the nearest gunships, scrambling aboard. Mace climbed in right beside Yoda, and their ship lifted away immediately, cannons blaring, shattering and scattering battle droids as it soared up out of the arena.
Mace could hardly believe the incredible sight unfolding before him, as thousands of Republic ships rushed down on the assembled fleet of the Trade Federation, dropping tens of thousands of clone troopers to the surface of the planet. Behind him, Yoda continued to orchestrate the battle.
"More battalions to the left," he instructed his signaler, who relayed it out to the field commanders. "Encircle them, we must, then divide."

So there is a strong implication part of those thousands, depositing tens of thousands of clone troopers, are gunships. In addition this is part of the battle scene we see as everyone is rescued from the arena.

I know, the quote was posted before, but we don't see that many soldiers in the movie, is what I'm saying.
Even in TCW, when they get back to Geonosis, we still don't see that many soldiers...
And again, the novel is wrong about the fight scenes, so why wouldn't it be about the number of ships and troops as well?

[Mr. Oragahn]

In addition, we see the ground battle on Geonosis, we never see the space battle in the films, and therefore there is no contradiction. Nor does TCW have authority over the film-novels.

As pointed out in my post, "thousands" doesn't refer to the Acclamators.
Do you have another source that attributes that number of Acclamators for the invasion of Geonosis?
If not, then you can't claim thousands Acclamators.

Besides, even a summary of all sources at wookieepedia only supports the arrival of 55 Acclamators for the invasion that took place in the movie.
There even were less ships in the second attack, in "Landing at Point Rain".

So, really, I think we can safely put to rest that claim of thousands of warships sent at Geonosis.

The ROTS:ICS, which you cannot, contrary to popular opinion, dismiss on a whim without pretext, states that there are thousands of ships at the battle of Coruscant. This is actually not-unsupported in the movies, in which we see many dozens, potentially hundreds of ships in just a small percentage of Coruscant's surface area, at a time when the battle was already winding down.

The Saxton-related ICSes are best taken with a star-sized grain of salt. Still, let's accept that figure, no matter the fact we know Saxton consistently pushes for dramatically inflationary numbers at any occasion.

Meanwhile, it fifteen ships respond to a high level security threat incursion. You claim that this is "contradicted" by DS9 (and proceed to assume that the latter overrides it, for no reason at all), but it isn't. The relatively large battles you see in DS9 is after the Federation has been at war for years, and usually takes weeks to assemble and has reinforcements from allies. The Neutral Zone incursion is an example of how pathetically Starfleet responds to quick and sudden movements, compared to how thousands of capital ships rushed to defend Coruscant on a whim.

The war with Dominion, as I understand, pretty much dropped on the Federation in a very short timeframe.

On the other hand, the Republic forces had been built for more than a decade and more were coming as a logical consequence of that.
That force was ready to be launched as a war would be declared across the entire Republic and neighbouring systems.

As for the defense of Coruscant, it happened at the end of the war.
Also, the thousands of ships had been built in secret at Kuat Drive Yards, mannged by clones grew from Spaarti cylinders at Centax 2. Coruscant is at the north of the Core Worlds, Kuat the extreme east (map).
Republic/Imperial ships are of course larger than Federation ships.
I took a look at Order 66 by KT, and we learn that 10,000 clone commandos were sent to Geonosis. Half survived.
Later we read this:

He knew her a lot better than she realized. "I'm not going to sit on my backside in Kyrimorut while you're on the front line," she said. "I still have my uses." Stang, she'd forgotten all about her datapad. She took it out of her pocket. "Here. I found another black hole in the procurement budget. New contracts for Rothana Heavy Engineering."

Ordo took the datapad and looked as if he was calculating, lips moving slightly. "I make that an order for five hundred larties."

"Exactly." The LAAT/i gunship was the workhorse of the Grand Army, and replacements were always needed; five hundred was a drop in the ocean for RHE, whose yards could churn them out like cheap family speeders. "Now look at the delivery date."

Ordo raised his eyebrows. "That's nearly a year away. Are they knitting them by hand or something?"

"It gets better. I tied up that order authorization with the delivery date and the corresponding budget estimate for the next financial year, and not only do they not match, but the expenditure's coded under domestic security. I thought the decimal point was an error, but no-it's off by-well, see for yourself. That much can buy a few thousand Acclamators."

Besany waited for Ordo to react. She'd brought him a prize at great risk: she realized that she was waiting for a pat on the head.

"Either Palpatine's ordered some gold-plated custom larties to show us clone boys how much he cares, or he's building a huge new fleet." Ordo scratched his chin thoughtfully. "Lots of big ships. Shab, I need a shave."

"He's got to have somewhere to put his new clone army," Besany said.

"But KDY and Rothana can lay a keel and launch a warship inside five months, and they can handle hundreds, thousands if they drop all other contracts. Where's the other hardware they're building in the meantime?"

"Unless they're replacing ships a rivet at a time, I couldn't find any other big orders due for completion before that time period."

"So Palpatine's stocking up with clones and ships, but not for deployment anytime soon. What's so important about a years time? Why that timing?"
Besany knew enough about the fighting--the stuff that HNE rarely covered now-to realize that every day was an all out, final effort for units of the Grand Army somewhere. But throwing much bigger resources at a war suggested finality. "You think the war might be coming to an end?"

"It's only just started. Maybe he's finally taking notice of our warnings that the Seps just don't have anything like the number of battle droids they claim to have. But I still don't understand the delay. Either way, Kal'buir will find this information useful."

Ordo sent the data by comlink to Skirata there and then. The numbers in this war didn't add up; it was a sore point with the Nulls, and especially with Skirata. They kept finding evidence that the Separatist droid armies weren't the much-vaunted quadrillions but hundreds of millions, yet it didn't seem to change the tactics dictated by Palpatine. Those were still bad enough odds for such a small clone army. But it explained why the Separatists hadn't overrun Coruscant.

It's very interesting, especially the conditions of high production rates from KDY and the actual figure, when you think of what it would take to make the bigger ISDs.
We may even be able to bracket a proper order of magnitude regarding the cost of a single Acclamator (even if Palpatine was also and largely building Venators at that point).

Now, those few thousand large warships, it certainly is an impressive quantity, but once spread over the whole Republic territory and its tens of thousands of systems, doesn't make for a high density at all.
It's also not so impressive when you consider the insane size of KDY, in comparison to the size of the shipyards usually seen in Trek.

As for the droids:

We've invented a Separatist threat that's bigger than the reality. The claim of quadrillions, quintillions, and even septillions of Separatist battle droids is so ludicrous that we'd rush to debunk it if someone didn't have a vested interest in making us believe it. Nothing adds up-literally.

Do you know how big a quadrillion is? Let's use the Galactic Standard notation-a thousand million million. A quintillion? A million quadrillions. A septillion? A billion quadrillions. Any coalition capable of producing even quadrillions of any machine could roll over the Republic in a few days. And the amount of materials and energy needed to produce and move even a quadrillion droids is immense-it would drain star systems. Either our government is composed of innumerate idiots, or it's inflating the threat way beyond the average citizen's math skills so that it can justify the war and where it's heading. - Hirib Bassot, current affairs pundit, speaking on HNE shortly before being found dead at home from alleged abuse of contaminated glitterstim

It's understandable why. Systems are built according to what is presently being used.
It doesn't matter if there are that many civilian droids, because you can't add military droids on top all that is needed for the huge swarm of civilian droids and hope everything to go well.
The sheer consumption of fuel alone would be problematic.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

You mean, like what 1 ship's personel did for the Warp 10 shuttle in VOY?
Riiight...
Problem is, if one ship can do it, the entire scientific division, or at least the propulsion division, could most likely do it as well...

You mean an experimental shuttle attempted a warp speed that produced so many negative side effects, an entire episode is spent on this?

You mean the experimental technology that was subsequently abandoned by the Federation and never used again, despite the absence of any treaty forbidding it?

Oh, right, and because there are so little troops on the ground, it is logical to assume that there are thousands upon thousands more troops waiting in the thousands of ships in orbit...

EDIT: upon reading the quote, it does imply (although not state) that the "thousands" figure refers to LAATs. Since an acclamator can field 80 LAATs each, one would be left with several dozen Acclamators instead.

My mistake. This instead reduces my argument to the ability of Wars to mobilize dozens of giant ships to an outer rim planet within hours after 1000 years of peace, whereas the Federation during a Cold War could only mobilize 15 ships to a heavily contested territory.

I can, however, dismiss it on the grounds that it is not supported by the movies...

Must I mention to you the same thing again (notice the hypocrisy?) for the 100000000014124324234 time that canon evidence does not have to be "supported" by the movie, just not contradicted? That they can stand on their own?

You should change your sentence to "it is contradicted by the movies" and then proceed to provide examples.

Of course, you'd fail to understand the definition of "contradiction", thinking that "we don't see it in the movies" = contradiction.

And again, as it seems you have missed (or ignored) my arguments, RotS is the only onscreen example of large SW fleets...

Appeal to Ignorance fallacy. A single example is enough, and the absence of proof =/= contradiction, which is the criteria needed to throw out lower canon evidence.

Not to mention that it isn't the entire onscreen example of large fleets. In TPM, the Trade Federation, which, as the name implies, is not a military power just about yet to the slightest degree, can on a whim mobilize thousands* of giant battleships to blockade a planet. And yet they are still terrified of intervention by the Galactic Republic, which at this time does not even possess a navy yet, merely a police force.

*Do the math. Circumference of planet = 22,000 kilometers. If you presume a 10 kilometer gap between each battleship(^) and two rows around the planet (why they only block 2 dimensionally, we do not know), you have about 4400 battleships.

^the larger you make this gap, the greater you will have to concede SW targeting capabilities, as you would have to presume that said battleships could reliably overlap each other and take out any escaping starships (including small, single manned ones) within an X meter radius.

1...
1 example, when compared to the many for ST seen in DS9, even though you like to dismiss them...

I have addressed this a gazillion and one times prior to your repetition:

No, the most ships we see on screen are hundreds. After several years they mobilized a decent fleet of thousands of ships that would equate to tiny frigates in SW terms.

Are you making the implicit claim that the AotC Republic fleet was more prepared than the Federation starfleet as of Worf 359? Why? The Republic fleet had 10 years to prepare, yes. Starfleet had more, and the Republic fleet had no generals yet, no command structure and had never actually been used in real combat. Both had to scramble to an unexpected location on a whim, except that one scrambled thousands to a distant outer rim planet in hours wheras the other barely managed to get 40 ships in defense of the capital.

Starfleet was still already partially mobilized. The Republic fleet was not.

Of course, they were mobilized for war. And even then, it takes weeks for reinforcements of a few hundred to arrive at a critical battle or juncture.

Pay attention to the last one, which was addressed to you.

Prove it...
DS9 happens AFTER TNG, and so it show us the Federation as it looks like in war time, or in response to war...
DS9 is the more recent series, and so events which happen in it supercede events that happen before it...

Yes, the Federation in wartime can mobilize hundreds of ships to expected confrontations. The Republic, as shown in ROTS, mobilized thousands during wartime to a surprise engagement.

Federation = hundreds in wartime to prepared confrontations, a dozen or so in a state of heightened alert (Romulan-Federation Cold War) to surprise attacks
Republic = thousands in wartime to surprise attacks, dozens within hours in turmoil but still peaceful period to surprise engagements

Proof?
Evidence?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aARI_GEx ... h_response

Also contains some inviting showings pathetic infantry combat and bronze age tactics used in space combat.

Are we again back at TNG, events which unfolded in the Federation's past?

So what? Did the Federation's logistical capabilities increase tenfold between TNG and DS9?

In that case, I say the SW Galaxy can only be debated using the events which happen in TCW, because I choose to freeze the timeframe there...

On the contrary, your attempt to parody my argument actually parodies yourself. You are denying TNG evidence because it is not from DS9. Your parody claim involves denying all non-TCW evidence because it is not from TCW. You see, I never denied DS9 evidence, indeed, I use it myself as well. I am just using both DS9 and TNG evidence, which you refuse. The parody is about you.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

As pointed out in my post, "thousands" doesn't refer to the Acclamators.
Do you have another source that attributes that number of Acclamators for the invasion of Geonosis?
If not, then you can't claim thousands Acclamators.

Besides, even a summary of all sources at wookieepedia only supports the arrival of 55 Acclamators for the invasion that took place in the movie.
There even were less ships in the second attack, in "Landing at Point Rain".

So, really, I think we can safely put to rest that claim of thousands of warships sent at Geonosis.

You're right, as I just stated. I had not seen the quote in quite a while, since I read the novel. But 55 Acclamators responding on a whim to an outer rim planet's affairs within hours is still superior to 15 ships responding to a high level security threat in a highly contested area. It's even more than the ships that battled the civilization threatening borg cube at Worf 359.

And don't go over me by claiming that the Republic navy was being "prepared" whereas the Federation navy was not. Starfleet possessed several advantages over the GAR:

1. It was tested, crewed and not a secret navy that nobody knew about until recently. The ships were already patrolling the galaxy or doing something useful.

2. The Neutral Zone was a far more accessible target than Geonosis, whose presence of CIS armies was only recently discovered by Kenobi.

3. Yoda alone, who had no military experience whatsoever, had to personally travel to Kamino, rally the fleet and get over to Geonosis. Starfleet command already presumably had control over starfleet and could mobilize them on a whim.

4. The Kaminions did not know of the crisis of Geonosis. Chances are that all of the clones were eating, sleeping, training, etc.

5. Contrary to what you may think, the Federation was in the middle of an essential cold war with the Romulan Empire. They were at peace in the same way that 1970 America was "at peace".

The Saxton-related ICSes are best taken with a star-sized grain of salt. Still, let's accept that figure, no matter the fact we know Saxton consistently pushes for dramatically inflationary numbers at any occasion.

Since when do you have the right to even try to dismiss canon statement just because you disagree with the author, Mr. O? If you want an example of "ignoring and refusing evidence", here is a textbook example of it.

"consistently pushes for dramatically inflationary numbers at any occasion."

And Karen Traviss does not try to do the exact opposite just as often? Except that she does not have a PhD in astrophysics and thinks that weight/square centimeter is a proper measurement for tensile strength?

Obviously you have no problem with somebody who does not understand the difference between three dimensional and two dimensional measurements. But claiming that a galactic civilization can field thousands of starships is total wank.

The war with Dominion, as I understand, pretty much dropped on the Federation in a very short timeframe.

At the start, of course, and this works both ways.

On the other hand, the Republic forces had been built for more than a decade and more were coming as a logical consequence of that.

And starfleet was not around for more than a decade?

That force was ready to be launched as a war would be declared across the entire Republic and neighbouring systems.

No, actually, a large portion of the Galactic Senate did not wish to go to war. There was no indication that the CIS wanted war either. The Kaminoians were clearly out of touch with the outside world, and therefore could not have anticipated that their troops would have to immediately go to all out war.

As for the defense of Coruscant, it happened at the end of the war.

And at the end of the war, at most one thousand ships (of frigate size from a SW perspective) were mobilized to fight a prepared battle, Mr. O. Compare this to the thousands which, on a whim, defended against a surprise strike against Coruscant.

Also, the thousands of ships had been built in secret at Kuat Drive Yards, mannged by clones grew from Spaarti cylinders at Centax 2. Coruscant is at the north of the Core Worlds, Kuat the extreme east (map).
Republic/Imperial ships are of course larger than Federation ships.
I took a look at Order 66 by KT, and we learn that 10,000 clone commandos were sent to Geonosis. Half survived.
Later we read this:

I'll do a variation of your speech.

The Traviss related works are best taken with a star-sized grain of salt. Still, let's accept that figure, no matter the fact we know Traviss consistently pushes for dramatically deflated numbers at any occasion and thinks that you calculate tensile strength using kilos/square centimeter.

Fortunately for us, all of her attempted retcons are through fallible third person commentaries.

"Exactly." The LAAT/i gunship was the workhorse of the Grand Army, and replacements were always needed; five hundred was a drop in the ocean for RHE, whose yards could churn them out like cheap family speeders. "Now look at the delivery date."

=pro Wars. 500 hundred a drop in the ocean for RHE?

"It gets better. I tied up that order authorization with the delivery date and the corresponding budget estimate for the next financial year, and not only do they not match, but the expenditure's coded under domestic security. I thought the decimal point was an error, but no-it's off by-well, see for yourself. That much can buy a few thousand Acclamators."

A margin of error of a decimal point can purchase a few thousand Acclamators.

Three thousand Acclamators (confirmed by Traviss to be entirely clone manned) = 48 million clones. And this is the amount of troopers from a decimal "error".

It also equals almost 300,000 LAAT gunships.

"But KDY and Rothana can lay a keel and launch a warship inside five months, and they can handle hundreds, thousands if they drop all other contracts. Where's the other hardware they're building in the meantime?"

A single planet skirting the outer rim can produce a warship in 5 months, yet the entire Federation takes around a year to replace the 38 tiny ships lost at Worf 359?

"It's only just started. Maybe he's finally taking notice of our warnings that the Seps just don't have anything like the number of battle droids they claim to have. But I still don't understand the delay. Either way, Kal'buir will find this information useful."

Too bad for Traviss that the claim of "quintillions" of battle droids comes from both the Revenge of the Sith: The Visual Dictionary and ROTS ICS, both of which are out of universe sources from the perspective of an omniscient narrator.

Ordo sent the data by comlink to Skirata there and then. The numbers in this war didn't add up; it was a sore point with the Nulls, and especially with Skirata. They kept finding evidence that the Separatist droid armies weren't the much-vaunted quadrillions but hundreds of millions, yet it didn't seem to change the tactics dictated by Palpatine. Those were still bad enough odds for such a small clone army. But it explained why the Separatists hadn't overrun Coruscant.

Your phrase proves that the clone army, which maintained an omniscient presence on Coruscant and, by your own quote, consisted of at least 40 million per decimal change in the fiscal budget, is "small" by SW standards.

It's very interesting, especially the conditions of high production rates from KDY and the actual figure, when you think of what it would take to make the bigger ISDs.
We may even be able to bracket a proper order of magnitude regarding the cost of a single Acclamator (even if Palpatine was also and largely building Venators at that point).

Now, those few thousand large warships, it certainly is an impressive quantity, but once spread over the whole Republic territory and its tens of thousands of systems, doesn't make for a high density at all.
It's also not so impressive when you consider the insane size of KDY, in comparison to the size of the shipyards usually seen in Trek.

Not only are the "thousands" of large warships not at all the entire Republic navy, as they fought millions of CIS warships (Complete Cross Sections) and possessed millions of clone divisions (Star Wars: Complete Locations).

And high density is irrelevant when your hyperlanes allow you to rally thousands to Coruscant to a surprise attack, and dozens to an outer rim planet within hours.

Do you know how big a quadrillion is? Let's use the Galactic Standard notation-a thousand million million. A quintillion? A million quadrillions. A septillion? A billion quadrillions.

Irrelevant.

Any coalition capable of producing even quadrillions of any machine could roll over the Republic in a few days.

Irrelevant conjecture.

And the amount of materials and energy needed to produce and move even a quadrillion droids is immense-it would drain star systems.

The character stating this is a total idiot. The Earth alone masses 5.9742 × 10^24 kilograms. If each droid weighed 70 kilograms, one could produce 10 sextillion battle droids.

And there are countless hundreds of billions of uninhabited planets that can be mined.

Conclusion: Traviss is a total moron.

Either our government is composed of innumerate idiots, or it's inflating the threat way beyond the average citizen's math skills so that it can justify the war and where it's heading.

Funny that I can easily mathematically calculate a quadrillion and calculations that come from it. Must I repeat that Traviss is a moron?

You see, disagree with Saxton all you want, but he holds a PhD in astrophysics and does not violate basic principles of science (kilos/square centimeter? WTF?) nor basic principles of mathematics.

- Hirib Bassot, current affairs pundit, speaking on HNE shortly before being found dead at home from alleged abuse of contaminated glitterstim

Good riddance to the bastard, who was obviously a CIS agent or a total moron.

It's understandable why. Systems are built according to what is presently being used.
It doesn't matter if there are that many civilian droids, because you can't add military droids on top all that is needed for the huge swarm of civilian droids and hope everything to go well.
The sheer consumption of fuel alone would be problematic.

Do you have any idea how ridiculously insignificant a quintillion battle droids is to a galaxy? How ridiculously insignificant a million sextillion battle droids is to the galaxy?

[Mr. Oragahn]

But 55 Acclamators responding on a whim to an outer rim planet's affairs within hours is still superior to 15 ships responding to a high level security threat in a highly contested area. It's even more than the ships that battled the civilization threatening borg cube at Worf 359.

The war was phony, staged. The building of ships and creation of clones had been going on for ages, while Sidious and Dooku knew that the confederation ships were parked at Geonosis for quite some time as well.
Hardly a whim, hardly a surprise either, save for the Jedi, but they were totally out of the loop regarding the preparation. They were like admirals suddenly dropped at the head of fleets, not the politicians and corporatists who orchestrated the whole business.

And don't go over me by claiming that the Republic navy was being "prepared" whereas the Federation navy was not. Starfleet possessed several advantages over the GAR:

1. It was tested, crewed and not a secret navy that nobody knew about until recently. The ships were already patrolling the galaxy or doing something useful.

2. The Neutral Zone was a far more accessible target than Geonosis, whose presence of CIS armies was only recently discovered by Kenobi.

3. Yoda alone, who had no military experience whatsoever, had to personally travel to Kamino, rally the fleet and get over to Geonosis. Starfleet command already presumably had control over starfleet and could mobilize them on a whim.

4. The Kaminions did not know of the crisis of Geonosis. Chances are that all of the clones were eating, sleeping, training, etc.

5. Contrary to what you may think, the Federation was in the middle of an essential cold war with the Romulan Empire. They were at peace in the same way that 1970 America was "at peace".

1. Although they certainly had a better empirical background, the UFP had not gone through such a war, and the fresh fish they needed to populate all those new ships with -which they had started building recently- hardly had any real experience either.

2. I don't know anything about the neutral zone. However, the Jedi's knowledge doesn't matter. It so doesn't matter that they accepted taking the reigns over a fleet and entire legions that pop'd out of nowhere as far as they were concerned. For all intents and purposes, it's almost like if they jumped into a war with no prior knowledge of what to do, while the people they sided with knew what they were doing.

3. Rally what? The fleet of 55 ships obviously was already there. If Kenobi hadn't found Geonosis, the info would have been leaked sooner or later anyway, because such was the plan.

4. Irrelevant, unless you explain why this matters.

5. Cold War is not active war. Was the production of US and Soviet ships, fighters, vehicles, ammunition and other weapons as intensive as in the middle of WWII for example?

The Saxton-related ICSes are best taken with a star-sized grain of salt. Still, let's accept that figure, no matter the fact we know Saxton consistently pushes for dramatically inflationary numbers at any occasion.

Since when do you have the right to even try to dismiss canon statement just because you disagree with the author, Mr. O? If you want an example of "ignoring and refusing evidence", here is a textbook example of it.

I'm taking any information from any source which Saxton approached in a way or another with extreme caution. That is all. Like it or not, I don't care. I made my case clear here.

"consistently pushes for dramatically inflationary numbers at any occasion."

And Karen Traviss does not try to do the exact opposite just as often?

I don't know, but it seems that after four seasons of TCWS, Lucas seems to think his universe is quite small.
Few clone squads, small engagements, etc. Even Christophsis didn't feature any impressive deployment of forces. Same for Umbara and probably just as much for the second attack on Geonosis.

Except that she does not have a PhD in astrophysics and thinks that weight/square centimeter is a proper measurement for tensile strength?

That appeal to authority doesn't move me.
Saxton's PhD didn't save him from making impressive mistakes and massively cherry picking his evidence. Don't be fooled by his white blouse.

Obviously you have no problem with somebody who does not understand the difference between three dimensional and two dimensional measurements.

?

But claiming that a galactic civilization can field thousands of starships is total wank.

Strawman.

The war with Dominion, as I understand, pretty much dropped on the Federation in a very short timeframe.

At the start, of course, and this works both ways.

That's a concession from you then, because you certainly argued that it wasn't the case for the Federation.

On the other hand, the Republic forces had been built for more than a decade and more were coming as a logical consequence of that.

And starfleet was not around for more than a decade?

Relevance?
The Republic has been around for a thousand generations. See, you lose, even at stupid games.

That force was ready to be launched as a war would be declared across the entire Republic and neighbouring systems.

No, actually, a large portion of the Galactic Senate did not wish to go to war.

The senate was out of the loop as well. They had no say on the building of ships and growing of clones.
Try again.

There was no indication that the CIS wanted war either.

Aside from the massive warships and the large droid factories producing churning out countless battle droids of course.
I gotta wonder if you even watched AOTC, really.

The Kaminoians were clearly out of touch with the outside world, and therefore could not have anticipated that their troops would have to immediately go to all out war.

Kaminoans aren't important. They had a contract, they produced clones. Period. When, where and how their clones would be used wasn't much of their problem, besides growing and training them in time.

As for the defense of Coruscant, it happened at the end of the war.

And at the end of the war, at most one thousand ships (of frigate size from a SW perspective) were mobilized to fight a prepared battle, Mr. O. Compare this to the thousands which, on a whim, defended against a surprise strike against Coruscant.

See the evidence I provided. Both fleets were prepared. The CIS prepared its fleet, and Palpatine piled up clones and warships, hidden in the budget of domestic security (like, you know, for defense of nearby grounds, like Coruscant *wink wink*).
No lack of preparedness on either side.

Also, the thousands of ships had been built in secret at Kuat Drive Yards, mannged by clones grew from Spaarti cylinders at Centax 2. Coruscant is at the north of the Core Worlds, Kuat the extreme east (map).
Republic/Imperial ships are of course larger than Federation ships.
I took a look at Order 66 by KT, and we learn that 10,000 clone commandos were sent to Geonosis. Half survived.
Later we read this:

I'll do a variation of your speech.

The Traviss related works are best taken with a star-sized grain of salt. Still, let's accept that figure, no matter the fact we know Traviss consistently pushes for dramatically deflated numbers at any occasion and thinks that you calculate tensile strength using kilos/square centimeter.

Fortunately for us, all of her attempted retcons are through fallible third person commentaries.

See, I actually accepted the number of ships supposedly coming from the ICS.
I'll now see, with following quotes, if you actually did the same regarding the fact coming from Traviss' book.

"Exactly." The LAAT/i gunship was the workhorse of the Grand Army, and replacements were always needed; five hundred was a drop in the ocean for RHE, whose yards could churn them out like cheap family speeders. "Now look at the delivery date."

=pro Wars. 500 hundred a drop in the ocean for RHE?

I wasn't trying to lowball anything there.

"It gets better. I tied up that order authorization with the delivery date and the corresponding budget estimate for the next financial year, and not only do they not match, but the expenditure's coded under domestic security. I thought the decimal point was an error, but no-it's off by-well, see for yourself. That much can buy a few thousand Acclamators."

A margin of error of a decimal point can purchase a few thousand Acclamators.

It could be a mistake by one digit or literally three digits, considering that such marks are placed every three orders of magnitude.
What is shows is that, from the usual budget, the error in question would for the construction of a few thousand Acclamators.
Unfortunately we don't know much beyond that.
It could be like having a budget of some billions, and then finding that you actually run with a budget of some trillions. I can let you imagine how many standardized military super carriers the US could build that way.
Of course that amount of money has to be taken from somewhere. It doesn't pop out of nowhere. Which means that there's like a whole line of usual budgets which got the axe.

Three thousand Acclamators (confirmed by Traviss to be entirely clone manned) = 48 million clones. And this is the amount of troopers from a decimal "error".

It also equals almost 300,000 LAAT gunships.

There's no basis to calculate that many clones. For one, Acclamators-I crews are 700 individuals per ship (The Official Star Wars Fact File). Nothing is said about the amount of clones who'd be used there. Considering that the ships would be used for a space battle, there's no reason to include numbers for troop deployment.
We don't know if Besany was thinking about the class-I or class-II Acclamator. The later variant was far less empty and lost 80% of its space it could dedicate to troops (Starships of the Galaxy, 2007).
In general, the first type was the most produced. Besany couldn't know that Palpatine planned to use them in a large space battle. Actually, she couldn't even know that Palpatine was building Venators. Which means we go from few thousand Acclamators, likely type-I (the usual model), to the equivalent in Venators. Obviously, less, since Venators are bigger and closer to warships, in comparison to the type-I Acclamators, and would contain more hardware inside than the relatively very empty Acclamators.

Also, considering this:

"Very soon, Palpatine will unleash a huge clone army, the one he's been building on Centax Two."
"We worked that out," Besany said.
"He's not preparing to use it against the Separatists."
Now that was a fascinating twist. "What makes you say that?" asked Ordo.
"Because I have been to Centax Two, and I have seen deployment plans, to ensure that Qiilura wasn't on the list."
A shapeshifter was the most feared spy of all. Gurlanins could assume any shape, stow away on any ship, and infiltrate anywhere. They communicated telepathically with one another. They might not have had a civilization with weapons and technology, but they were very bad enemies to make.
"Want to expand on that?"
"Soldier, you can't even see what's in front of you, can you?"
Ordo wasn't used to being told he wasn't smart enough to understand. He wasn't so much offended as shocked. "So what troop strengths are we talking about? What targets?"
"Enough to occupy thousands of worlds."
"Separatist worlds?" Ordo was thinking hard. If Palpatine wasn't planning a massive assault on the Seps, which worlds would he be targeting? Ordo decided to look for some economic angle when the Gurlanin left. "I know this war has been engineered carefully for some other ends, and many wars are, but what does he want out of it? Which worlds?"
"Lots of worlds. That's all you need to know. I think I know what your plans are, more or less, and so I advise you to put them into effect sooner rather than later. Agent Wennen will be the next Treasury employee who vanishes into RDS cells, and then it's only a matter of time before Palpatine hunts you all down. Go now."

Even going by your numbers, we get 48 M deemed enough to occupy thousands of worlds.

"But KDY and Rothana can lay a keel and launch a warship inside five months, and they can handle hundreds, thousands if they drop all other contracts. Where's the other hardware they're building in the meantime?"

A single planet skirting the outer rim can produce a warship in 5 months, yet the entire Federation takes around a year to replace the 38 tiny ships lost at Worf 359?

Rothana does the LAATs mainly. KDY does the large ships. Kuat is not your average "single planet" you know. It's not even skirting the outer rim. Did you miss the piece when I went to the length of remembering you, a few hours before your last post, that Kuat as in the Core Worlds?

"It's only just started. Maybe he's finally taking notice of our warnings that the Seps just don't have anything like the number of battle droids they claim to have. But I still don't understand the delay. Either way, Kal'buir will find this information useful."

Too bad for Traviss that the claim of "quintillions" of battle droids comes from both the Revenge of the Sith: The Visual Dictionary and ROTS ICS, both of which are out of universe sources from the perspective of an omniscient narrator.

Traviss has provided a good enough rationalization, and there's nothing in TCWS that goes against that. In fact, the numbers seen in the movie and the show agree with that. Like the clones outnumbered 200 to 1, or the importance of saving 60,000 wounded clones from a medical station in a strategical area in the outer rim.
Well, I don't want to restart the whole clone count debate anyway, we have enough threads and posts about that here. I just provided the line for the sake of completism.

Ordo sent the data by comlink to Skirata there and then. The numbers in this war didn't add up; it was a sore point with the Nulls, and especially with Skirata. They kept finding evidence that the Separatist droid armies weren't the much-vaunted quadrillions but hundreds of millions, yet it didn't seem to change the tactics dictated by Palpatine. Those were still bad enough odds for such a small clone army. But it explained why the Separatists hadn't overrun Coruscant.

Your phrase proves that the clone army, which maintained an omniscient presence on Coruscant and, by your own quote, consisted of at least 40 million per decimal change in the fiscal budget, is "small" by SW standards.

Small and yet that's all there was.
See how it actually hurts you.

It's very interesting, especially the conditions of high production rates from KDY and the actual figure, when you think of what it would take to make the bigger ISDs.
We may even be able to bracket a proper order of magnitude regarding the cost of a single Acclamator (even if Palpatine was also and largely building Venators at that point).

Now, those few thousand large warships, it certainly is an impressive quantity, but once spread over the whole Republic territory and its tens of thousands of systems, doesn't make for a high density at all.
It's also not so impressive when you consider the insane size of KDY, in comparison to the size of the shipyards usually seen in Trek.

Not only are the "thousands" of large warships not at all the entire Republic navy, as they fought millions of CIS warships (Complete Cross Sections) and possessed millions of clone divisions (Star Wars: Complete Locations).

Mostly small ships in comparison to Republic warships, and easily dispatched if they were to be brought up against Federation ships.

And high density is irrelevant when your hyperlanes allow you to rally thousands to Coruscant to a surprise attack, and dozens to an outer rim planet within hours.

True.

Any coalition capable of producing even quadrillions of any machine could roll over the Republic in a few days.

Irrelevant conjecture.

You think?
For example, you think that an army capable of deploying thousands of soldiers wouldn't be steamrolled by an army capable of deploying 10^9 more troops?
Are you daft or something?

And the amount of materials and energy needed to produce and move even a quadrillion droids is immense-it would drain star systems.

The character stating this is a total idiot. The Earth alone masses 5.9742 × 10^24 kilograms. If each droid weighed 70 kilograms, one could produce 10 sextillion battle droids.

And there are countless hundreds of billions of uninhabited planets that can be mined.

Conclusion: Traviss is a total moron.

Conclusion: you don't get it. There's like an entire galaxy that could be mined, but obviously it isn't.
The statement is contextual: it cannot be done with the actual industry and economy of the galaxy. You can't arbitrarily pull the resources, fuel and organization needed to build, move and maintain quadrillions of droids out of nowhere at the present state of affairs.
Think (again): it's finding enough resources to build a population equaling or even surpassing the highest figure we have for the total galactic population. Now, you need to maintain and move those units, and even arm them and organize them.
I don't even know why the f*** I'm wasting my time pointing this out, really.

Your logic is so immature, it's akin to saying that there's no way the US can't build, arm, move and maintain millions of war frigates since there's plenty of raw materials on Earth for that...
Jesus.

You see, disagree with Saxton all you want, but he holds a PhD in astrophysics and does not violate basic principles of science (kilos/square centimeter? WTF?) nor basic principles of mathematics.

Kilos per square centimeter is merely a finer equivalent of tonne per square meter. All at a smaller scale. See? No big deal.

- Hirib Bassot, current affairs pundit, speaking on HNE shortly before being found dead at home from alleged abuse of contaminated glitterstim

Good riddance to the bastard, who was obviously a CIS agent or a total moron.

Well that was quite an irrelevant comment to make. But I guess you needed to vent that rage; the one of defeat.

It's understandable why. Systems are built according to what is presently being used.
It doesn't matter if there are that many civilian droids, because you can't add military droids on top all that is needed for the huge swarm of civilian droids and hope everything to go well.
The sheer consumption of fuel alone would be problematic.

Do you have any idea how ridiculously insignificant a quintillion battle droids is to a galaxy? How ridiculously insignificant a million sextillion battle droids is to the galaxy?

Ring me a bell when you'll understand a thing or two about economy and industrial margins.
In the meantime, bye.

[SpacePaladin]

Too bad for Traviss that the claim of "quintillions" of battle droids comes from both the Revenge of the Sith: The Visual Dictionary and ROTS ICS, both of which are out of universe sources from the perspective of an omniscient narrator.

Hi, long time lurker, first time poster. Normally I like to watch, but this is something that has always bugged me since I found out about it and figured here would be a good place to share...

Didn't the whole clone=unit concept come from the Attack Of The Clones movie novelization? Which is higher canon than both those put together and came out in 2002? Seriously, read the following passages:

The callousness of it all struck Obi-Wan profoundly. Units. Final Product. These were living beings they were talking about.

Here we have the book defining units outside the context of a military unit.

"Yes Master," Obi-Wan said. "Prime Minister Lama Su has informed me that the first battalion of clone troopers are ready for delivery. He also wanted to remind you that if we require more--and they've got another million well on the way to completion--it will take more time to grow them."

"A million clone warriors?" Mace Windu asked in disbelief.

Here we have the book defining that million more well on the way as a million clone warriors.

Now I fully agree the numbers are stupid, but they were always stupid.

[mojo]

Too bad for Traviss that the claim of "quintillions" of battle droids comes from both the Revenge of the Sith: The Visual Dictionary and ROTS ICS, both of which are out of universe sources from the perspective of an omniscient narrator.

Hi, long time lurker, first time poster. Normally I like to watch, but this is something that has always bugged me since I found out about it and figured here would be a good place to share...

Didn't the whole clone=unit concept come from the Attack Of The Clones movie novelization? Which is higher canon than both those put together and came out in 2002? Seriously, read the following passages:

The callousness of it all struck Obi-Wan profoundly. Units. Final Product. These were living beings they were talking about.

Here we have the book defining units outside the context of a military unit.

"Yes Master," Obi-Wan said. "Prime Minister Lama Su has informed me that the first battalion of clone troopers are ready for delivery. He also wanted to remind you that if we require more--and they've got another million well on the way to completion--it will take more time to grow them."

"A million clone warriors?" Mace Windu asked in disbelief.

Here we have the book defining that million more well on the way as a million clone warriors.

Now I fully agree the numbers are stupid, but they were always stupid.

holy shit. that's an impressive find. kudos!

[Mike DiCenso]

Too bad for Traviss that the claim of "quintillions" of battle droids comes from both the Revenge of the Sith: The Visual Dictionary and ROTS ICS, both of which are out of universe sources from the perspective of an omniscient narrator.

Hi, long time lurker, first time poster. Normally I like to watch, but this is something that has always bugged me since I found out about it and figured here would be a good place to share...

Didn't the whole clone=unit concept come from the Attack Of The Clones movie novelization? Which is higher canon than both those put together and came out in 2002? Seriously, read the following passages:

The callousness of it all struck Obi-Wan profoundly. Units. Final Product. These were living beings they were talking about.

Here we have the book defining units outside the context of a military unit.

"Yes Master," Obi-Wan said. "Prime Minister Lama Su has informed me that the first battalion of clone troopers are ready for delivery. He also wanted to remind you that if we require more--and they've got another million well on the way to completion--it will take more time to grow them."

"A million clone warriors?" Mace Windu asked in disbelief.

Here we have the book defining that million more well on the way as a million clone warriors.

Now I fully agree the numbers are stupid, but they were always stupid.

Hello, welcome to the forum. That fits in well with the 5 million clone trooper numbers given in TCW episode "Heroes on Both Sides". A number which would bankrupt the Republic.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

Too bad for Traviss that the claim of "quintillions" of battle droids comes from both the Revenge of the Sith: The Visual Dictionary and ROTS ICS, both of which are out of universe sources from the perspective of an omniscient narrator.

Hi, long time lurker, first time poster. Normally I like to watch, but this is something that has always bugged me since I found out about it and figured here would be a good place to share...

Didn't the whole clone=unit concept come from the Attack Of The Clones movie novelization? Which is higher canon than both those put together and came out in 2002? Seriously, read the following passages:

The callousness of it all struck Obi-Wan profoundly. Units. Final Product. These were living beings they were talking about.

Here we have the book defining units outside the context of a military unit.

"Yes Master," Obi-Wan said. "Prime Minister Lama Su has informed me that the first battalion of clone troopers are ready for delivery. He also wanted to remind you that if we require more--and they've got another million well on the way to completion--it will take more time to grow them."

"A million clone warriors?" Mace Windu asked in disbelief.

Here we have the book defining that million more well on the way as a million clone warriors.

Now I fully agree the numbers are stupid, but they were always stupid.

holy shit. that's an impressive find. kudos!

Oh bugger. I said I wouldn't let myself dragged into that, so I'll try to make it short.
First of all, hi SpacePaladin!
Secondly, I don't find this text so decisive.
You need another piece from the novelization that clearly shows that million units and million clones are the same thing. I know that because at SBC the nitpicking about the indignation regarding the use of "unit" for living beings went nowhere.

So add this and you'll see:

"Please..." Lama Su indicated the chair once more. When Obi-Wan finally sat down, the Kaminoan continued. "And now to business. You will be delighted to hear we are on schedule. Two hundred thousand units are ready, with another million well on the way."

Now I can't tell if this fits with movie dialogue or not. I can't check right now.
It links "units" with "million", and with the other piece of text presented by SP, we got the link "million" with "clones" very clearly.

[SpacePaladin]

holy shit. that's an impressive find. kudos!

One: hi all who greeted me.

Two: I amused how this bit of information which has been around for about nine and a half years in a full-fledged movie novelization is considered a "find".

[Praeothmin]

You mean an experimental shuttle attempted a warp speed that produced so many negative side effects, an entire episode is spent on this?

You mean the experimental technology that was subsequently abandoned by the Federation and never used again, despite the absence of any treaty forbidding it?

I mean the technology that was develloped by a lone spaceship, far from home and any decent research facilities, which lacked much, much ressources, but still managed to devellop an infinite speed shuttle...

Was the product flawed?
Yes, it was, we saw it on the show...
Was the premise flawed?
No, they did achieve Warp 10...
So with some more research, it should be possible to devellop it ever more, and work out the kinks...
Oh, and except for Genesis, which could have happened only a few months after Voyager came back home, for all we know, how much ST have we seen?
Not much...
So could we hear of any progression with the Warp 10 research?

EDIT: upon reading the quote, it does imply (although not state) that the "thousands" figure refers to LAATs. Since an acclamator can field 80 LAATs each, one would be left with several dozen Acclamators instead.

Which is pretty much in line with the movie...

My mistake. This instead reduces my argument to the ability of Wars to mobilize dozens of giant ships to an outer rim planet within hours after 1000 years of peace, whereas the Federation during a Cold War could only mobilize 15 ships to a heavily contested territory.

And you once more get stuck in TNG mode...
Ok, then:
No, they can't, because in TCW we are shown they can't have fleets of more than 6-8 ships at a time for any engagements, even important ones, which is less than the 15 ships in TNG, and the war is happeneing over all of 12 worlds, which means that the republic has between 72 to 96 ships total...

Must I mention to you the same thing again (notice the hypocrisy?) for the 100000000014124324234 time that canon evidence does not have to be "supported" by the movie, just not contradicted? That they can stand on their own?

Must I point out, again, how the novels cannot support the movies, or stand on their own, if what they say isn't shown in the movies?
Again, I come back to the Lightsabre fight between Dooku, Obi-Wan and Anakin in AotC:
The novel says Dooku never moved, that only his hands moved in the fight, but the movie shows us he did move when fighting...
Must we conclude, then, that there were two fights that ocurred separately, but at the same time?

When you mention a war with thousands of ships, but your main source of information shows only dozens, how are you not contradicting it?
Why did the movie not show us this incredible fleet of thousands of ships?

Oh, and who decided:

that canon evidence does not have to be "supported" by the movie, just not contradicted?

And how stupid must one be not to realize that when a novel describing a scene in a movie decribes it differently then what is shown, it is in fact contradicting it?
Unless, of course, you are saying that the novels and the movies are two separate entities, and do not exist in the same reality?
Because if not, then anything shown differently, or not implied by the movie, contradicts the novel's description...

Appeal to Ignorance fallacy. A single example is enough, and the absence of proof =/= contradiction, which is the criteria needed to throw out lower canon evidence.

Nope, appeal to intelligence in fact...
What RotS show us is that there was a large fleet around Coruscant, period...
It does nothing to support, or infirm, numbers of ships anywhere else in the SW Galaxy...

Not to mention that it isn't the entire onscreen example of large fleets. In TPM, the Trade Federation, which, as the name implies, is not a military power just about yet to the slightest degree, can on a whim mobilize thousands* of giant battleships to blockade a planet. And yet they are still terrified of intervention by the Galactic Republic, which at this time does not even possess a navy yet, merely a police force.

Oh, I'm sorry, did we not watch the same movie?
The one where the surrounding fleet looked like this?
Yeah, there does seem to be thousands upon thousands of ships, just like in the blockade of Cardassia...

After several years they mobilized a decent fleet of thousands of ships that would equate to tiny frigates in SW terms.

But with Capital ship Firepower, and most of these ships can kick the butt of most SW vessels...

Starfleet was still already partially mobilized. The Republic fleet was not.

The Republic fleet already had fully trained soldiers, and ships, while Starfleet first thought it had more time, and had to train their soldiers...

Yes, the Federation in wartime can mobilize hundreds of ships to expected confrontations.

Per fleet...
While the only fleet of several hundred ships we've seen in SW was the defense of Corsucant...
And we're not really sure it was several hundred, and not just several dozens...

Also contains some inviting showings pathetic infantry combat and bronze age tactics used in space combat.

Can't see it from work, but a quick question:
Is it also a fan made video, like the last one you showed those many months ago?
Plus, should I mention the Napoleonic combat tactics in SW, the abysmal aim of their troops, the horrible maneuverability of their ships, or their weak, non-protective armor that clearly shows they woudln't be worse going to war wearing red pajamas...

So what? Did the Federation's logistical capabilities increase tenfold between TNG and DS9?

The show indicates there was one, apparently...

You are denying TNG evidence because it is not from DS9. Your parody claim involves denying all non-TCW evidence because it is not from TCW. You see, I never denied DS9 evidence, indeed, I use it myself as well. I am just using both DS9 and TNG evidence, which you refuse. The parody is about you.

Are you that dense, or do you do this on purpose?
I use all the movies, all of TCW, and all of the EU, and give priority to the higher canon examples, and average them out...
And all those numbers average to small fleet numbers, except for RotS Coruscant fleet...

You use TNG as a benchmark when DS9 shows us your TNG numbers no longer apply, that the original, limited capabilities of the TNG Federation no longer apply in the DS9 reality...

That's the difference...

[Picard]

holy shit. that's an impressive find. kudos!

One: hi all who greeted me.

Two: I amused how this bit of information which has been around for about nine and a half years in a full-fledged movie novelization is considered a "find".

It is a find beacouse it is almost forgotten. Warsies ignore it, as they do with majority of canon, and bring only carefully-cherrypicked EU to table. And such small piece of dialogue is easily forgotten if you didn't watch movies for a long time. So it's easy to loose a track of such things.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

The war was phony, staged. The building of ships and creation of clones had been going on for ages, while Sidious and Dooku knew that the confederation ships were parked at Geonosis for quite some time as well.

So if the war was "phony, staged", how is it indicitive of the standard numerical values and levels of the Star Wars galaxy? How would this be relevant to the imperial starfleet, whose war with the Rebel alliance was certainly not "staged"?

Hardly a whim, hardly a surprise either, save for the Jedi, but they were totally out of the loop regarding the preparation. They were like admirals suddenly dropped at the head of fleets, not the politicians and corporatists who orchestrated the whole business.

Exactly my point. Your justification for the Republic's greater readiness compared to the Federation is that the former was far better prepared for war, which obviously is not true. The Kaminoians and the contractors hired to build Acclamators had absolutely no clue that they would be used at the time and place that they would be. Most likely weren't even certain that a war would occur at all.

And don't go over me by claiming that the Republic navy was being "prepared" whereas the Federation navy was not. Starfleet possessed several advantages over the GAR:

1. It was tested, crewed and not a secret navy that nobody knew about until recently. The ships were already patrolling the galaxy or doing something useful.

2. The Neutral Zone was a far more accessible target than Geonosis, whose presence of CIS armies was only recently discovered by Kenobi.

3. Yoda alone, who had no military experience whatsoever, had to personally travel to Kamino, rally the fleet and get over to Geonosis. Starfleet command already presumably had control over starfleet and could mobilize them on a whim.

4. The Kaminions did not know of the crisis of Geonosis. Chances are that all of the clones were eating, sleeping, training, etc.

5. Contrary to what you may think, the Federation was in the middle of an essential cold war with the Romulan Empire. They were at peace in the same way that 1970 America was "at peace".

1. Although they certainly had a better empirical background, the UFP had not gone through such a war, and the fresh fish they needed to populate all those new ships with -which they had started building recently- hardly had any real experience either.

2. I don't know anything about the neutral zone. However, the Jedi's knowledge doesn't matter. It so doesn't matter that they accepted taking the reigns over a fleet and entire legions that pop'd out of nowhere as far as they were concerned. For all intents and purposes, it's almost like if they jumped into a war with no prior knowledge of what to do, while the people they sided with knew what they were doing.

3. Rally what? The fleet of 55 ships obviously was already there. If Kenobi hadn't found Geonosis, the info would have been leaked sooner or later anyway, because such was the plan.

4. Irrelevant, unless you explain why this matters.

5. Cold War is not active war. Was the production of US and Soviet ships, fighters, vehicles, ammunition and other weapons as intensive as in the middle of WWII for example?
[/quote]

1. So you're admitting that starfleet's preparation and readiness is crap, even right after a Cold War with a dangerous foe. Thank you? Do you think that the clones were ready for war either? When none of them had ever seen the rest of the galaxy before, none had ever served in real combat before, and were suddenly called up on a whim to battle a foe they'd never encountered before?

2. Nice attempt at diverting the subject. We can discuss the questionable intelligence of the Jedi Order in another debate. For now, the fact is that the Republic fleet responded to within hours to a random incident in the Outer Rim with more ships than the Federation could in a hotly contested territory. They sent more ships a farther, more obscure distance in less time.

3. The Acclamators existed, by whoever said that they were "prepared"? They were likely docked at a port. Which leads us to our next point...

4. ...that the clones were likely in the middle of training excercises, eating and sleeping. Within hours they had to scramble to their ships and run off to a random point in the galaxy.

5. Except that the Republic during Geonosis wasn't WW2 America, it was America the day before Pearl Harbor. Readied, but not as readied as Cold War America (nor WW2 America). Remember that the war had yet to actually begin.

I'm taking any information from any source which Saxton approached in a way or another with extreme caution. That is all. Like it or not, I don't care. I made my case clear here.

You should approach all sources with extreme caution, not just the ones that you do not like.

I don't know, but it seems that after four seasons of TCWS, Lucas seems to think his universe is quite small.
Few clone squads, small engagements, etc. Even Christophsis didn't feature any impressive deployment of forces. Same for Umbara and probably just as much for the second attack on Geonosis.

Right. That's why George Lucas imagined up a 320-900 kilometer in diameter Death Star being built in under a year. That's why his depiction of Coruscant involves an entire planet's surface being covered by 2 kilometer tall skyscrapers and billions of airspeeders. That's why he licensed Saxton's works.

That appeal to authority doesn't move me.
Saxton's PhD didn't save him from making impressive mistakes and massively cherry picking his evidence. Don't be fooled by his white blouse.

"making impresive mistakes"? Tell me where Saxton makes a mistake equivalent to equating the tensile strength of durasteel to rubber using a non-existant measurement.

Strawman.

So you're denying that you feel that Saxton's depiction of thousands of Acclamators is wank? Then why do you accuse it of being inflated? How is a galactic civilization that can make Death Stars being overinflated by making a few thousand warships? If you could only speculate rationally, you'd presume that a galactic civilization could produce at least millions of Acclamators.

Why do you see no problem with thousands of soldiers taking over entire planets? You clearly feel that it's alright to dismiss C canon sources if they don't make sense, so why do you not concede that 4 million soldiers fighting a galactic war is phony and stupid beyond belief?

That's a concession from you then, because you certainly argued that it wasn't the case for the Federation.

On the contrary, the examples in which I gave to Trek were late in the war, when they had already been given plenty of time to mobilize for war. This is similar to the Battle of Coruscant, which happened late in the war. The two main differences are:

1. The Republic mobilized thousands of ships, far more than any Federation fleet ever assembled for a battle.
2. They did this in response to a surprise attack from a tactical standpoint.

Relevance?
The Republic has been around for a thousand generations. See, you lose, even at stupid games.

A better analogy would be that the Republic navy had been around for a thou-...oops, I forgot. For around a few thousand days, wasn't it? In secret?

The senate was out of the loop as well. They had no say on the building of ships and growing of clones.
Try again.

Which is more evidence against your assertion that the Republic army at Geonosis was a well prepared army just waiting to launch to Geonosis at any given moment. Quite frankly Yoda acted illegally, assaulting Geonosis within hours without knowledge from the Senate and without knowing that Palpatine knew.

Aside from the massive warships and the large droid factories producing churning out countless battle droids of course.
I gotta wonder if you even watched AOTC, really.

I did, and I quite remember the fact that Kenobi was fucking surprised when he discovered the massive droid armies on Geonosis.

Kaminoans aren't important. They had a contract, they produced clones. Period. When, where and how their clones would be used wasn't much of their problem, besides growing and training them in time.

And presumably, they contracted others to produce Acclamators. And presumably, those contractors may not have even known what they were for.

See the evidence I provided. Both fleets were prepared. The CIS prepared its fleet, and Palpatine piled up clones and warships, hidden in the budget of domestic security (like, you know, for defense of nearby grounds, like Coruscant *wink wink*).
No lack of preparedness on either side.

I was speaking on tactical grounds, Mr. O. Or are you claiming that a nation at war cannot possibly be taken off guard? The Battle of Coruscant was a surprise attack, the Republic was caught off guard and still mobilized thousands of warships. Meanwhile, the Federation has to spend weeks to prepare to gather a few hundred warships.

See, I actually accepted the number of ships supposedly coming from the ICS.
I'll now see, with following quotes, if you actually did the same regarding the fact coming from Traviss' book.

So am I! Traviss's book doesn't state that the droid army numbers are hoaxes, it states that certain characters thought that the droid army numbers are hoaxes. There is a very crucial difference in fallibility.

I wasn't trying to lowball anything there.

Then why underline it?

[It could be a mistake by one digit or literally three digits, considering that such marks are placed every three orders of magnitude.

What the hell are you talking about? The phrase "decimal point" was quite clearly singular.

What is shows is that, from the usual budget, the error in question would for the construction of a few thousand Acclamators.
Unfortunately we don't know much beyond that.
It could be like having a budget of some billions, and then finding that you actually run with a budget of some trillions. I can let you imagine how many standardized military super carriers the US could build that way.
Of course that amount of money has to be taken from somewhere. It doesn't pop out of nowhere. Which means that there's like a whole line of usual budgets which got the axe.

Let's presume that the "decimal error" was in the tenths digits, even though budgets measure to far more significant digits.

A one decimal error would be 1/100th of the fiscal budget (which is likely smaller than the actual annual "GDP", especially if Palpatine is hiding funds). Meaning that the total Republic budget could in theory produce millions of Acclamators. If you presume that the decimal error is from the hundreths place, we could gather figures of tens of millions or more.

There's no basis to calculate that many clones. For one, Acclamators-I crews are 700 individuals per ship (The Official Star Wars Fact File). Nothing is said about the amount of clones who'd be used there. Considering that the ships would be used for a space battle, there's no reason to include numbers for troop deployment.
We don't know if Besany was thinking about the class-I or class-II Acclamator. The later variant was far less empty and lost 80% of its space it could dedicate to troops (Starships of the Galaxy, 2007).
In general, the first type was the most produced. Besany couldn't know that Palpatine planned to use them in a large space battle. Actually, she couldn't even know that Palpatine was building Venators. Which means we go from few thousand Acclamators, likely type-I (the usual model), to the equivalent in Venators. Obviously, less, since Venators are bigger and closer to warships, in comparison to the type-I Acclamators, and would contain more hardware inside than the relatively very empty Acclamators.

They have a crew of 700 clones per ship. Each ship contains 16,000 clones for deployment. Since Acclamators are transport ships, albeit ones that can second as battle-ships, it would be wasteful to not be able to hold at least near 16,000 clones per ship.

Even going by your numbers, we get 48 M deemed enough to occupy thousands of worlds.

Presuming that this quote is in the same context as your other quote, and presuming that the text is not figurative (which I garuntee that you would use should this quote have supported Wars or have been one from Trek), this doesn't mean much, given that an Acclamator being above the occupied planet is a very good way to deter resistance, even if your ground forces are heavily outnumbered.

Rothana does the LAATs mainly. KDY does the large ships. Kuat is not your average "single planet" you know. It's not even skirting the outer rim. Did you miss the piece when I went to the length of remembering you, a few hours before your last post, that Kuat as in the Core Worlds?

It is in the core worlds, but it is near the Outer Rim. But no matter, the fact is that Kuat alone matches a decent percentage of Starfleet's entire industrial might. Acclamators are at least five times the average size of the Federation ships at Worf 359, and a single planet, however important, churns one out once every 5 months, whereas the entire Federation takes a year to churn out 38 ones smaller by at least a margin of 5. So Kuat matches at least 5.4% of the entire Federation's military industrial input?

Traviss has provided a good enough rationalization,

Feel free to show me where she rationalizes the logic of fighting a galactic war with 4 million clone troopers.

and there's nothing in TCWS that goes against that.

There is in something called math and other C canon sources. For example, the idea that there is an omniscient presence of clone troopers on Coruscant. If by "omniscient" the text means "a one to one hundred ratio", there would have to be several hundred billion clones policing the capital alone.

In fact, the numbers seen in the movie and the show agree with that. Like the clones outnumbered 200 to 1,

I find it hilarious that you can postulate non-existent hyperbole out of "molten slag", but fail to recognize the figurative speech here.

[quote[or the importance of saving 60,000 wounded clones from a medical station in a strategical area in the outer rim.

I was not aware that saving 60,000 lives wasn't important regardless of the practical costs.

Well, I don't want to restart the whole clone count debate anyway, we have enough threads and posts about that here. I just provided the line for the sake of completism.

Let me ask you this question:

If you had, hypothetically, only the movies and film-novels to base your judgment, what would your estimation as to the size of the Grand Army of the Republic be? Do you think that, if you could only deduce it logically, 4 million would be around your ballpark estimate?

Furthermore, even if the 4 million clone army figure is canon (despite being ridiculous), it merely establishes that the Republic army is not made up of mainly clones:

The New Essential Chronology

"Conscription, however, was a necessary reality. Countless beings of every species became draftees into the Grand Army of the Republic."

The Essential Atlas and Dark Empire tell us that there are 100 quadrillion sapient beings in the Galactic Republic. If the conscription accounted for 1% of the populace (ridiculously low compared to peacetime volunteer rates), the Republic would have an army of 1 quadrillion soldiers backing them up.

Now I'm not claiming that the Republic could provide for enough supplies and ships for 1 quadrillion soldiers; although the former is not beyond possibility, but even if only 1% of said 1% of that figure were drafted, you would have 10 trillion sapient soldiers at your command.

Small and yet that's all there was.
See how it actually hurts you.

Not at all, given that this implies that actual SW militaries that aren't fighting proxy wars like you claim that the clones were are much larger.

Mostly small ships in comparison to Republic warships,

But still decently sized compared to Federation ships.

and easily dispatched if they were to be brought up against Federation ships.

In case if this was not made clear to you, I was attempting to avoid the issue of firepower. But even if you use Darkstar's weapon yields, Star Wars would still win through sheer rate of numbers and a faster transportation and communications system.

True.

You think?
For example, you think that an army capable of deploying thousands of soldiers wouldn't be steamrolled by an army capable of deploying 10^9 more troops?
Are you daft or something?

Circular reasoning. If the droid army does really have quintillions or quadrillions of battle droids, then the Grand Army of the Republic is clearly larger than a few million clone troopers.

Quadrillions of battle droids makes more sense than millions of battle droids, and is supported by equal, if not higher, canon. You continue to support a theory (1oo million battle droids) that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever solely for the purpose of stacking the odds against Wars as much as humanely possible.

Why not accept Saxton's rationalization that there are more than one "Grand Army"? Does this not make more sense than a galactic war being fought with less troops than the United States raised during World War 2?

Conclusion: you don't get it. There's like an entire galaxy that could be mined, but obviously it isn't.

Since you claim that Traviss successfully "rationalized" an OOU omniscient narrator, please feel free to explain why this could happen within the bounds of all common sense.

The statement is contextual: it cannot be done with the actual industry and economy of the galaxy. You can't arbitrarily pull the resources, fuel and organization needed to build, move and maintain quadrillions of droids out of nowhere at the present state of affairs.

The ICS2 states that billions of planets are mined by individual mining corporations. There is neither canon evidence to bluntly contradict this nor any illogic behind the statement.

Think (again): it's finding enough resources to build a population equaling or even surpassing the highest figure we have for the total galactic population. Now, you need to maintain and move those units, and even arm them and organize them.

I don't even know why the f*** I'm wasting my time pointing this out, really.

I don't know why the fuck you're trying to support a third person fallible narrator over several omniscient OOU narrators. I don't know why you think that a hundred million battle droids facing 100 quadrillion citizens is plausible to the slightest degree if even 0.001% of those citizens join the military.

Your logic is so immature, it's akin to saying that there's no way the US can't build, arm, move and maintain millions of patrol boats since there's plenty of raw materials on the continental crust available to the United States and accessible by a pre type 1 civilization's mining technologies for that...
Jesus.

Fixed for you. Your analogy fails for several reasons:

1. There is canon proof of both the droid army's figures and billions of planets being mined.

2. The United States has to contend with the fact that a large portion of its land is either inhabited, filled with wildlife or unsafe to mine. Since there are hundreds of billions of uninhabited planets, the first point fails because the empty:inhabited ratio in a galaxy is incalculably larger than on a portion of a continent. The second is irrelevant for the same reason. The third is irrelevant because there are droids to do the hard labor, corporations who don't give a shit and are far too removed from the capital to be stopped, and much better safety gear and technology.

3. When the US runs out of materials and land, what then? They're screwed, that's what, and/or will have to increase their dependency on foreign powers tenfold. The Republic has absolutely no such inhibitions, because a galaxy does not run out of resources in any conceivable amount of time.

4. The accessible resources available to us still would hardly be able to build millions of frigates without severely draining them to dangerous levels. The same cannot be said for the accessible resources in hundreds of billions of worlds.

Kilos per square centimeter is merely a finer equivalent of tonne per square meter. All at a smaller scale. See? No big deal.

Kilos is a unit of mass, not force/weight. It seems like you and Traviss have an equally primitive understanding of basic SI units.

Well that was quite an irrelevant comment to make. But I guess you needed to vent that rage; the one of defeat.

No, actually, it wasn't. It stated, implicitly, that your sources all stem from in universe characters whom can easily be discredited, whereas mine [in addition to making far more sense] stem from multiple OOU guides. Traviss's novel doesn't canonically state that X is true, it states that character Y said that X is true.

To do an analogy for you, four million clone troopers fighting a war over 100 quadrillion people is the statistical equivalent of one soldier (less, actually, but you get the point) fighting World War 2.

Additionally, even if we were to establish the 4 million figure as canon (despite the fact that LFL clearly stated that no definite number would ever be presented, leaving us with merely logical speculation, which clearly does not favor a 4 million man army), the quote I had provided earlier simply establishes that the 4 million clones were an elite sector of many trillions of civilian soldiers.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Apologies for the double post.

@Space Paladin: good find. But Obi Wan himself had never experienced galactic war in his lifetime; not even Yoda had, as the last galactic war was 1000 years ago, ending at the Battle of Ruusaan. (I highly recommend the Darth Bane novels, etc.) He is therefore a highly fallible source.

I mean the technology that was develloped by a lone spaceship, far from home and any decent research facilities, which lacked much, much ressources, but still managed to devellop an infinite speed shuttle...

Was the product flawed?
Yes, it was, we saw it on the show...
Was the premise flawed?
No, they did achieve Warp 10...
So with some more research, it should be possible to devellop it ever more, and work out the kinks...
Oh, and except for Genesis, which could have happened only a few months after Voyager came back home, for all we know, how much ST have we seen?
Not much...
So could we hear of any progression with the Warp 10 research?

Except that we don't, even though there is no reason for them not to. Why would they suddenly cancel warp 10 technology if it were feasible and practical?

Which is pretty much in line with the movie...


And you once more get stuck in TNG mode...
Ok, then:
No, they can't, because in TCW we are shown they can't have fleets of more than 6-8 ships at a time for any engagements, even important ones, which is less than the 15 ships in TNG, and the war is happeneing over all of 12 worlds, which means that the republic has between 72 to 96 ships total...

Bolded conjecture.

Must I point out, again, how the novels cannot support the movies, or stand on their own, if what they say isn't shown in the movies?
Again, I come back to the Lightsabre fight between Dooku, Obi-Wan and Anakin in AotC:
The novel says Dooku never moved, that only his hands moved in the fight, but the movie shows us he did move when fighting...
Must we conclude, then, that there were two fights that ocurred separately, but at the same time?

That's a different type of "not being shown". Let me explain to you.

Type 1 would be your example. For example, the novel states that Anakin killed Obi Wan before the climax, yet the movie shows that Obi Wan is very much alive at the end.

Type 2 would be if the novel stated that Anakin and Padme talked to each other while on their journey to Naboo, yet the movie didn't show the voyage.

Similarly, if you deny that type 2 exists and that all examples of X not being shown in both counts as Type 1, I thereby deny that any of TCW material ever existed, because none of it is shown in the movies. Indeed, Ahsoka Tano is never mentioned in G canon, is she? So that must mean that she does not exist, because it isn't supported by the movies!

When you mention a war with thousands of ships, but your main source of information shows only dozens, how are you not contradicting it?
Why did the movie not show us this incredible fleet of thousands of ships?

So because the Return of the Sith opening scene, showing around one percent of Coruscant's orbital surface area, at a time when the battle was only minutes away from ending, shows a few dozen ships in the limited camera angle that followed the protagonists, not the fleet outside, you conclude that this contradicts that the entire space battle consisted of only those few dozen ships?

Oh, and who decided:

that canon evidence does not have to be "supported" by the movie, just not contradicted?

Leland Chee, the person in charge of canon policy for SW?

Your theory that all canon has to be confirmed by the films means that all of TCW is out because none of it happens in the films. All of the EU is out because none of it is the exact same story as the films. What's the purpose of having an Expanded Universe if it cannot mention things the movie doesn't have time to explain?

And how stupid must one be

Cut it.

not to realize that when a novel describing a scene in a movie decribes it differently then what is shown, it is in fact contradicting it?
Unless, of course, you are saying that the novels and the movies are two separate entities, and do not exist in the same reality?
Because if not, then anything shown differently, or not implied by the movie, contradicts the novel's description...

But that's the problem with your reasoning. You presume that the movie's showing of the Battle of Coruscant contradicts the book's showing, when the movie only shows a small portion and timeframe of it, and therefore does not contradict anything.

It would contradict the novels if the novels stated that Grevious had his hand burned off, yet in the movies we see that he clearly has his hand intact. But this doesn't happen.

Nope, appeal to intelligence in fact...
What RotS show us is that there was a large fleet around Coruscant, period...
It does nothing to support, or infirm, numbers of ships anywhere else in the SW Galaxy...

And it does nothing to confirm the existence of Ahsoka Tano either. What's your point?

Oh, I'm sorry, did we not watch the same movie?
The one where the surrounding fleet looked like this?
Yeah, there does seem to be thousands upon thousands of ships, just like in the blockade of Cardassia...

So because you saw a portion of the planet's circumference you presume to know the size of the entire blockade around the entire planet?

But with Capital ship Firepower, and most of these ships can kick the butt of most SW vessels...

I don't want to get into this, and neither do you. We are discussing industrial capabilities and logistics.

The Republic fleet already had fully trained soldiers, and ships, while Starfleet first thought it had more time, and had to train their soldiers...

The first works both ways, since the Kaminoians had no idea that they were about to be thrusted into all out war.

The second would imply that Starfleet recruits are not trained in peacetime, and yet it still works both ways.

Per fleet...
While the only fleet of several hundred ships we've seen in SW was the defense of Corsucant...
And we're not really sure it was several hundred, and not just several dozens...

It was several thousand, this is a canon fact. "Not shown" is not criteria for dismissal; contradicted is.

Can't see it from work, but a quick question:
Is it also a fan made video,

...all youtube videos are. But it uses real footage.

like the last one you showed those many months ago?
Plus, should I mention the Napoleonic combat tactics in SW,

At least they have, at worst, combined arms Napoleonic tactics. The Federation does the same, only without any sense of combined armed forces.

the abysmal aim of their troops,

Stormtroopers' aim sucks, albeit it's still better than redshirts'. However, clone troopers were able to pick off battle droids without inhibitions even after hundreds of millions of pounds of dust blew into their faces.

the horrible maneuverability of their ships,

You mean like the video I had just shown you, in which a space age navy lines up in VERTICAL WALL FORMATIONS and charges through the other battle line?

At least the Geonosis ground battle used updated Napoleonic tactics. The Federation regularly uses tactics that would be considered questionable during the bronze age.

or their weak, non-protective armor

You mean the one that allows clone troopers to still target droids kilometers away in a giant dust storm caused by the collapse of a billion ton giant spaceship into a ground full of dust?

that clearly shows they woudln't be worse going to war wearing red pajamas...

See above. See the canon instances of stormtrooper armor being "virtually immune to slugthrowers [firearms]". Let me watch as you try to show a "contradiction" by comparing this to scout troopers being knocked out by giant rocks, because apparently good armor is expected to stop momentum.

The show indicates there was one, apparently...

No, there wasn't. It's just that being able to assemble hundreds to a prepared engagement is different than sending thousands to a surprise attack.

Are you that dense, or do you do this on purpose?
I use all the movies, all of TCW, and all of the EU, and give priority to the higher canon examples, and average them out...
And all those numbers average to small fleet numbers, except for RotS Coruscant fleet...

No, you don't. You state that only evidence confirmed by the movies are admissible, in which case there is no point at all for even considering anything else. Why?

Simple logic. It's like drawing a venn diagram between the movies and the EU and stating that only evidence either in the overlap or in the movies is true. Try drawing this. Then try taking away the EU bubble completely. You'll notice that nothing changes, because if X source has to be confirmed by Y source first, and Y source is always true, why bother with X source at all?

You use TNG as a benchmark when DS9 shows us your TNG numbers no longer apply, that the original, limited capabilities of the TNG Federation no longer apply in the DS9 reality...

That's the difference...

Then TCW are clearly invalid, since the OT shows the Empire assembling together a Death Star.

Indeed, the post EU literature clearly isn't contradicted by TCW, because obviously their logistics simply improved.

[sonofccn]

If you had, hypothetically, only the movies and film-novels to base your judgment, what would your estimation as to the size of the Grand Army of the Republic be? Do you think that, if you could only deduce it logically, 4 million would be around your ballpark estimate?

Only the movies and their novelizations? 1.2 two million clonetroopers since that is how many they had on hand at the start with years needed to raise a clone to adulthood.

Also SWST please cease with your appeals of authority to Saxton. He at best has no greater standing than Traviss in terms of canon and arguably less since she continued writing books after Saxton. By your logic her work is what Lucas "supported" since he allowed his company to employ her writing tomes which helped fill his coffers.