Picard wrote:
Continuity Canon does not exist. It is just merchandizing trick, disproved by Lucas, who, unlike Rodenberry (who is dead), still holds ALL rights to Star Wars AND rights to say what is canon and what not.
If Continuity Canon does not exist, why is it still up on the official Star Wars website? Stop dismissing evidence that you find inconvenient.
Entire day gives around 1-gigaton shields.
Based on your highly conservative calculations - where, by the way, did you find the footage of asteroid collisions? Did you use a dvd?
You also neglect the difference physical impacts and energy based weapons.
??? The asteroids were crossing the hull of the Falcon in a fraction of a second; they were moving at supersonic speeds.
You too.
Official =/= canon.
Would you care to search up the definition of official?
Key words being „mostly“ and „slow moving“.
No, you are making the false claim that the asteroids in the field were slow moving, when they were moving with at
least supersonic speeds.
Point was that field played no role in Vader's decision to call Bounty Hunters onboard his ship.
So then, in that case, if there were no asteroid field, why did the fleet not simply send tie fighters to chase after the Falcon?
You want to say that Borg do not need fuel to power their ships,
How much fuel would be needed for, say, ten borg cubes to jump to Earth? What would the vast fuel storages on each cube be used for otherwise? Are they just sitting around doing nothing?
or maintenance for drones?
Borg drones require minimal maintenance.
Or how about fact that in both cases cube was stopped by almost divine intervention? One cube was enough to assimilate Earth under normal circumstances. Why to redirect ships from other, maybe even more important tasks, to assimilate single planet in middle of hostile teritorry?
Because after "divine intervention" happens two times in a row, the third time you should bring in more to stop another convenient plot device from occurring. This is basic logic.
Lets just say that you fire one bullet at enemy, and bullet misfires. Would you immediately drop gun and take RPG instead? Or maybe, with your logic, a nuclear warhead?
Stupid analogy. A better analogy is that if you sent a single abrams tank to quell a rebellion, and the rebels trick the tank crew into driving into a deep ditch and capture it, is your solution to dismiss it as a fluke and to send the very same force a second time.
Which was only stopped by literally guerilla-type tactics. Or does the fact that US troops cannot counter Talibans suddenly mean they are incompetent?
US troops
can and have countered insurgent forces, and if X number of troops prove insufficient for the job,
they send in more. What is so hard about this to understand?
Nice of you to finally start thinking logically.
Forgot Endgame? Do Borg even exist by then? Number of things could have happened – even if they are not destroyed in Endgame, what prevents Federation from repeating same tactics in, say, 26th century? Or even later 24th or 25th century? So stop asking questions there is no definite answer to.
After their second incursion attempt failed, the borg logically would have simply diverted a fleet of one hundred cubes to storm Earth.
Megaton shot fired at entrance of mine will collapse entrance.
Because surely a space age society lacks the capability of repopening the entrance, or having multiple entrances.
And who mentioned megaton airburst?.
Your link to your blog site? Not to mention that megaton airbursts cannot destroy military structures or even durable civilian structures. Do you honestly think that an airburst will destroy all "natural resources", a term of which is explicitly mentioned separately from the industry needed to run it such as mines (meaning that both the mines AND the deposits are destroyed)? A megaton airburst would not be guaranteed to kill somebody in a basement!
Plus, you forget that Base Delta Zero is not canon, and we are not in BDZ thread.
If you did not wish to discuss BDZ, you should not have included discussions from it in your opening post. You are conveniently attempting to drop out of the debate halfway through the thread.
Deep planetary shelter might as well be few hundred meters underground.
Are you honestly reading what you type, Picard? Do you think that a "deep planetary shelter" is only a few hundred meters underground, which is less than 0.0001% of the depth of the upper mantle? You also fail to realize that megaton airbursts would fail to affect a shelter a few hundred meters underground, and the e24 joule calculation is estimating 1 meter of the surface being melted!
Which means that discussion about BDZ is meaningless.
Which surely explains why you felt so inclined to include it in your blog, in your opening post and in the base delta zero thread.
Maybe beacouse he is civilian and doesn't know what exactly Imperials can do? Or you think that you would not be afraid from hearing bombs go off right above your head, even in relatively safe shelter like underground tunnels?
The survivor was an Alliance agent. He is by no means and ordinary civilian.
„Natural resources“ by your wanktastic definition, where every speck of dirt is strategically important natural resource.
Again, goalpost shifting. You stated that base delta zero's do not destroy natural resources in direct violation to your quote. If you really meant my definition of natural resources, you should have specified so. Otherwise, you look like you're backtracking to cover your tracks.
Mine is source of natural resource. Or you forgot meaning of „figurative alk“? Or fact that we are arguing about non-canon now?
natural resources AND industry. If the author included mines and harvesting agents for such natural resources as natural resources, why include industry in the statement too?
Beacouse you insisted on it. I said you that Base Delta Zero is non canon. And besides, I saw what you were doing in your discussion with Darkstar. – you were trying to refute canon with non-canon examples. Speaking of consistency...
Nowhere did I try and refute canon with non canon. Once again, you are making BS up out of your mind.
As I said, Base Delta Zero is not canon. But firepower Saxonities derive from it is contradicted by examples from canon.
The canon films support Saxtonite calculations within one or two orders of magnitude! The Death Star DET theory just happens to support Saxtonite calculations within a small margin of error, as does the Death Star's circumnavigation of Yavin.
Mass lightening, maybe?
See? I provide canon evidence supporting my claims, and your only rebuttal is to say that "maybe" it's some made up technobabble that is never mentioned in Star Wars, but that you pull out of your butt because you cannot just admit that my calculations for the circumnavigation of Yavin are based on solid interpretation of the scene.
That same ISD was destroyed by colissions with asteroids later, as novelization specifies. And besides, if it had teraton-range HTL's, waste heat would destroy it.
An unshielded ISD was hit, yes. What's your point?
RotS novelization. Durasteel melts in lava – we see it in movie too, but only novelization specifies that TF base is made out of (dura)steel.
Do we know what grade durasteel it was? Or what temperature the lava was?
STFU. You are last person on board who should be teaching anyone on „dishonest fallacies“, seeing as you are full of them – first lying so as to get EU into debate, then...
Stop it with the stupid ad hominems. You make a
texbook example of the burden of proof fallacy. You literally ask me to prove that something is "not" true.
No, WE KNOW FROM CANON THAT ISD CANNOT REMOVE ATMOSPHERE BY DET. Therefore, chain reaction / NDF is needed. Or you will argue that non-canon overrules canon?
No, this is stupid circular reasoning. You continue to use your own conclusion as evidence for your premise, which you in turn use as evidence for your conclusion.
You think that an ISD cannot remove an atmosphere by DET, when the Death Star can scatter a planet and overcome GBE (you know, the defined, scientifically accurate DET "theory", which is really the laws of thermodynamics?) and circumnavigate gas giants in minutes?
And where do we ever see evidence in your precious canon where an ISD cannot remove an atmopshere by DET? Do we ever see an upper limit to the firepower of turbolasers? No, so then what's your point?
WE ARE NOT ON BASE DELTA ZERO THREAD ANYMORE, MR. BULLSHITTER. YOU LIED IN ORDER TO GET YOUR BELOVED EU WANK IN DISCUSSION, AND I IGNORED IT. Seriously, next time I will simply ignore ANY EU examples you bring up if you continue to ignore canon.
"ignore canon"? Whenever I ask you to support your bullshit claim that base delta zero is in contradiction of canon, you bring up the same arguments:
1. The asteroid collision scene, because you think that the durability of the bridge tower of an unshielded ISD is relevant to the firepower of heavy turbolasers.
2. That TCW episode involving asteroids, yet you still fail to quantify the size and density of the asteroid field, or at least to give reasonable estimates, footage, screenshots, etc.
3. Vaporizing a small town, yet your calculations are totally minimalist; you assume everything that would lower the energy needed (US size town, random calculation darkstar pulled, figurative vaporization, heavy turbolasers, wooden structures)
EU has to be in line with canon, not the opposite.
And this is supposed to qualify as
proof instead of a restatement of the obvious how?
Base partially survived.
The base did, but the atmosphere, a completely quantifiable target, did not.
What about Star Trek having planetary shields?
You mean planetary shields that are rarely, if ever, shown?
And even if Earth does have a planetary shield, it does not explain away the issue. The breens did damage Earth, but slightly, meaning that; and I have already explained this:
1. There was bleed through damage
or
2. The shield eventually fell
Both are faulty:
1. In this case, why would only San Fransico be affected? Why would 99.99% of the blast be conveniently diverted, and why would the breen forces not take advantage of this bleed through to saturate the entire planet surface?
Or what about Klingon Bird of Prey destroying all life on planet via chain reaction in „The Chase“, down to mollecules?
And star destroyers can destroy all life using raw energy:
"Cloaked Star Destroyer!" Han snapped back, twisting the helm yoke viciously, the whole plan suddenly coming clear. "That battle back there over Bothawui- all those ships beating each other into rubble- with a Star Destroyer waiting hidden here, ready to finish them all off and maybe burn Bothawui in the bargain. No survivors, no witnesses, only a battle everyone in the New Republic would blame everyone else for." VOTF p.617
"The preliminary [target] list has been filed," Oissan said, sounding a bit flustered. "We were expecting to have more time to complete it."
"Well, you didn't, did you?" Nalgol bit out, thoroughly disgusted. First the strike team, now Oissan. "Get back to work. We still have an hour or two before the battle out there winds down to where we'll be entering it." VOTF p.651
It is matter of going against CANON. You do not accept canon evidence, so I tried to find EU evidence that is in line with canon.
But you just claim that Dankayo is NOT in line with canon!, even though you brought it up to (quoting you) "be in line with canon"). So:
You make the foolish strawman that I do not accept canon (when among my main arguments remains the circumnavigation of Yavin, which is G canon, and your response to CANON is to use a NON CANON, not even mentioned in any C canon, made up mass lightning which is literally N canon).
You therefore decide to find EU quotes that are
in line with canon
Your choice? Among this is dankayo.
Yet then you dismiss dankayo as in contradiction with canon.
What?
Ah, yes. And still other parts of EU show turbolasers in sub-kiloton to kiloton range. And besides, he WAS alive – I had impression that Wanktonian BDZ would take care of even such shelters?
Red herring. Your megaton airbust theory would be completely ineffective against military structures, mines, heavy civilian structures, deep basements, fisheries or deep planetary shelters.
People underground who, somehow, survive.
Sometimes, under fortified shelters, yes. But by your airburst idea, a significant number of people on the surface would survive if they were inside a concrete building!
Yes, beacouse strong airburst will achieve same effect.
That's not what a contradiction means. Go search up the definition.
Towns, not cities.
No, you stated that megaton level nukes are city killers.
As above.
Besides:
That is part of Hiroshima after
kiloton range explosion. If that is NOT „removed from the face of the planet“, I don't know what is.
There were still structure left standing after the detonation.
You have proof? To me it looks like your knowledge of Star Wars is limited to hearsay from SDN-ers and few EU books.
Once again, your understanding of Burden of Proof fails.
Quote was intended for people on Earth; therefore, it is in reference to Earth town.
So if TM refers to the Enterprise as, for example, the finest ship in the fleet, are you going to assume that it is in reference to the US navy?
Or when Luke is described as perhaps the most skilled swordsman ever, the author is referring to real life?
Show me ONE example where the author EVER mentions real life.
Beacouse Tatooine is only „small town“ that we know from canon.
So because it's the only one we see, all other small towns must be like that? Even though a freaking desert town is obviously going to try and minimize size for reasons that hopefully you can understand?
Latter. I don't have time nor will to pass throught entire posts every time I log in.
So then go back and respond to the context!
Which is about one gigaton per day. And if ISD's did have teraton-range shields, then even 10 gigatons per day would be unimportant.
Irrelevant, as a gigaton per day is a low end lower limit, and is far in excess of anything that the Enterprise can handle. Or was it being harmed by a large chemical explosion a fluke?
And movies are canon, unlike EU, so...
Why don't you stop your foolish goalpost shifting?
Given that „durasteel“ is supposed to be wanktastically strong, yet very avaliable, and fact that TIE's certainly look like being made from metal, yes.
Durasteel on capital ships is very strong; how is this relevant to the titanium alloy hull used on tie fighters?
Beacouse you have shown willingness to ignore canon in favor of EU.
PROVE IT.
Plus, we don't know why atmosphere drifted away –
The basic laws of physics do.
it could be technobabble,
You, of course, can provide evidence for this other than your desperation to dismiss all solid evidence as a unknown technobabble you do not quantify or explain?
since we know that Imperials sent transports to perform „mop-up“ operations and „search throught Dankayo's evenly cratered surface“, meaning that surface was not melted, as Saxtonian BDZ demands. So, you fail. But I really have no wish to debate you around material which is not canon either way.
Nowhere is it stated that the ground is not melted.
Scavengers Hunt, p.3 wrote: "... to rendezvous at Dankayo and reduce the tiny base to molten slag. Even before the last of its atmosphere drifted away, before the dense clouds of atomized topsoil could begin to settle, Imperial transports Elusive and Timely, as well as a complement of TIE fighters, moved in to perform "mop-up" operations and a thorough search of Dankayo's now evenly-cratered surface."
Why do you bold the part about reducing a tiny base to slag, but neglect the part about the atmosphere drifting away?
Coruscant and the Core Worlds wrote:"firestorm decimated all vegetation and animals and most of the sentient Caamasi", leading to ecological and climatological collapse: a lack of plant-life to convert oxygen or provide food killed off surviving animals, and "Immense clouds of soot and smoke" rendered the atmosphere toxic to most sentients, requiring "a breathing mask for any sustained activity". The lack of vegetation led to widespread erosion and dust-storms, and "even the oceans have become polluted from run-off".
The quote is self contradicting; how could blasts that merely create firestorms create immense clouds of soot and smoke that significantly affect the atmosphere and poison it?
Not to mention that infantry can carry out local Base Delta Zero.
And your point is what?
Galaxy Guide 9: Fragments from the Rim wrote:"The First Sun is a repulsorlift infantry regiment designed primarily to run search-and-destroy missions, which he troops of the unit jocularly refer to as SLAMs (Search, Locate, Annihilate mission). Indeed, the regiment often undertakes missions with the same objective as the "Base Delta Zero" command: the elimination of all assets of production, including factories, land, mines, fisheries, droids, and sapient beings (particularly any witnesses that may have seen atrocities being commited)."
Once again, what's your point?
You ignore canon in favour of EU. You ignore parts of EU that do not fit you and twist them so as to conform to your image – I almost fell for it.
1. Show me a single canon example that contradicts base delta zero
2. Show me a single example of me ignoring it.
And as for how you twist facts – you really thing that destroying civilized world somehow requires melting of entire surface of planet. Why adjective „civilized“ if ISD can melt surface of any random ball of rocks and dirt?
Because it is significantly more difficult to melt durasteel structures than it is to melt rock? Is this difficult to comprehend?
And I answered it.
No you did not. These one sentence, short evasion response do not make a good argument.
Canon = 1.5 megaton HTL
Therefore = no atmosphere removal via DET
Show me where darkstar got his imaginary equation that he pulls out of nowhere from.
Bullshit. It is about turbolasers and damn BDZ you bring up despite we left BDZ thread ages ago. I NEVER CLAIMED EVERY ISD HAS SUPERLASER.
Prove that ANY isd's other than ssd's have superlasers, or you're just making up stupid shit to counteract the mounting evidence conveniently supporting Saxtonite calculations within a few orders of magnitude.
There is no contradiction. Just because darkstar says so, does not make it true.
And what about good ol' telescopes, or sending spies before invasion?
Is this the best excuse you've got? That you can use telescopes to locate things underground? Or send in spies to locate every single underground structure, hoping that not one happens to get caught?
And, why destroying underwater refineries or anything else underwater requires oceans to be removed?
Because they are spread out across the entire ocean, and many are underwater?
Due to your BS, and my lack of time to deal with it.
No, due to your own quote being proven to not support your made up airburst version of bdz.
Huh...? So, Tatooine and Naboo are not civilized worlds?
What's this supposed to mean?
And what is difference? Neutronium / neutronium alloy hull is used to „prove“ that ISD's are wanktastically strong, despite the fact that we see in canon it is not so.
This is a stupid strawman; I did not mention neutronium hulls, you did. You also got cause and effect wrong; nowhere do Saxton, Wong me or other pro Wars debaters use neutronium alloy hulls as proof of hull durability; Saxton and other Eu writers included it as an explanation for the super strong hulls, not the other way around.
Except that in Star Trek, we have numerous examples of 100 000+ km combat. In Star Wars, ISD was missing a corvette barely few kilometers ahead, and we have NO examples of ligh-minute ranges ICS claims at all.
Yet all those 100,000 km ranges obviously do not factor in your rationalization of jamming, so what's your point?
I'm glad you understand at least that.
So then the 100,000 km ranges
are irrelevant, unless if there is a situation in which the Star Wars side's jammers are disabled.
6 000 kilometers is still less than 200 000 km shown in Star Trek canon.
And such ranges are only relevant, by your own admission, when jamming is off.
Do you know ANYTHING about jamming? Or how sensors work?
Ah, the classic tactic of making a rhetorical "do you know how these work?" in response to an assertion. Sure, why don't you explain to me how they work, and how this is relevant?
For whatever reason I already gave.
And all those reasons also apply to Star Wars, so your 200,000 Km ranges are useless and irrelevant!
When challenged by 1 kiloton proton torpedoes, yes. But saying that TFBB shields are invincible to everything is logical fallacy.
Too bad that the script says so, and you adhere to the script over visuals for some reason. Nute Gunray spoke in absolutes, and was not aware of what weapons the Naboo could have.
In context of attack. That is, no weapon carried by fighters can penetrate TFBB's shields.
That's not what the script says.
No, that is with YOUR idea of literaly event. YOU are one who inisists on using literary descriptions, despite the fact that they defy logic.
That's my point! If we see a borg cube pass right next to the Enterprise and Picard, for example, says that the cube is about 10,000 KM away, the literary description makes no sense.
It was disaster beacouse fleet in vicinity of Earth was massacred, without doing any damage at all to cube. With that, one sector was probably left defenseless for time being. BUT, it was NOT disaster in number of ships destroyed. Even if we take entire year to replace 39 destroyed ships, that is more than 3 000 ships, if we take average lifespan of 80 years – despite fact that newer ships probably have longer lifespan than Mirandas. SO low end of low end gives 3 000 capital ships in Starfleet. High end – assuming 100 year lifespan and „less than a year“ as being 6 months – gives 7 800 capital ships in the fleet. So with peacetime production Starfleet is able to build minimum of 40 ships a year.
None of these come close to matching Star Wars ship numbers.
You craptastic politician. Forgot that Star Trek has something called... urm... „planetary shields“? Hello?
I already responded to this several times, liar. You can dismiss this as you forgetting context, until you make stupid flames like calling me a craptastic politician, when the fault is really on YOU.
It is psychological warfare, soldier.
Psychological warfare only gets you so far. Just like how running into battle naked with stripes and spiked bats is not a good idea.
Unusually dense stone of ancient temple. Itr does NOT state that all stones on that friggin' moon are super-dense.
Nowhere did I state that. In fact, this idea point is a nitpick of yours.
Read Darkstar's page on that matter. If it was antimatter, then superlaser would simply DRILL throught planet, and create supervolcano (maybe even without „super“ prefix). Or would simply convert entire planet into energy. It would NOT leave debris. Besides, entire hyperspace thing is technobabble; is it so hard to imagine it can be used as a weapon?
Then:
1. Explain what the technobabble is, what it does, and roughly how
2. Explain how this technobabble explains all of the VFX effects used to discount the DET theory any better than the DET theory does
3. Make sure that this technobabble theory take less than e32 joules and is not in violation with the fundamental laws of physics.
As I have already explained, the ROTS opening scene is a surprise, act fast invasion fleet; of course they're going to have to move in close to land troops.
And that one came into being beacouse you were insistant that close range battles with Borg somehow mean that Star Trek is incapable of long-range combat. Plus, I think that someone here already showed you long-range engagement with Voyager and small fleet.
Oh, Star Trek may be capable of long range combat, but by your own admission it's only when jamming is not an issue. Star Wars ships do have jamming, so your examples of BVR ST combat are irrelevant.
Lucky shot, maybe. But you can't rely on lucky shots.
Lucky as in a decent few ships hit per ten seconds? Sure.
I saw what you wrote. Torpedoes use same fuel for propulsion and for explosion.
Citation needed.
Probably.
So then how are they relevant?
Except that you have to prove that these jamming devices will work with Star Trek sensors. For all we know, Star Wars combat sensors are EM based.
And for all we know, phaser NDF effects might be totally ineffective against SW shields. Stop making these unreasonable claims.
Read what I wrote. They did not know that particular subsystem will destroy cube – Data himself said that system appears to be non-vital – but they DID know that Borg cube DOES have subsystems which can be destroyed, which is point you were trying to refute.
Prove it.
Which regenerates. Plus, why such pattern of penetration? If they were focusing on penetrating the hull, then why not to do it one side of cube by one side?
What pattern of penetration? Federation combat tactics seem to preclude firepower concentration, given that age of sail like formations are still used.
Except that they obviously knew.
Prove it.
Disproven with movie itself.
So you disproved one of the prerequisites?
Sensors are never irrelevant; also, ever heard of short-range sensors? And are you trying to say that weapons are somehow tactically irrelevant? Or that power relays are tactically irrelevant?
Short-range sensors? Why weren't they jammed too? Weapons systems were relevant, of course, but were not successfully destroyed.
So, if phaser rifle can change frequencies, why not mount similar device on torpedoes? And then launch them at slower speed to conserve energy for phasers and shields?
You claimed that torpedos cannot do such a thing. Gosh, maybe the debate is getting too complex for you.
READ AGAIN. If enemy is jamming your sensors, you also want to jam his. So, more ships in smaller area = more intensive jamming. Plus we know from Voyager that ships can lend energy to one another.
Why do the ships need to be concentrated into a smaller area to increase jamming? Do you even understand what jamming is? Are you under the impression that jamming has some sort of density, and that 5 ships a kilometer away from each other produce more jamming than 5 ships spread out?
Photon torpedoes can manouver, but disruptors and tractor beams are line-of-sight weaponry. So shut up if you don't understand what I am talking about. Or are you saying that turbolaser bolts can manouver?
Space is 3-d.
Yup.
So why would one need to park one's ship within a few kilometers of another to exchange energy that propogates at C?
And they suddenly have subspace sensors and means to jam them? Last time I checked, Star Wars technology was mostly EM-based. Including sensors.
If all ST sensors are subspace, then are they blocked by things as simple as a ion storm?
You do realize that a laser designator cannot be jammed, right? That marking a target with a laser or similar equivalent marker is not something you jam?
Proof? It used one weapon on Defiant. And Star Trek ships tend to fire one weapon while another recharges/reloads. Borg probably aren't any different.
Do you ever see more than one Federation ship being hit at a time?
Read what i posted, think about it and THEN reply. I never said that one doesn't need sensors at close range.
It is not needed at such short ranges. Plus, do you know how small these subsystems are o make such statements? And what about Imperials failing to hit Millenium Falcon? Or about Lakota not missing defiant single time despite being old bucket?
Star Wars can jam subspace sensors? Doubtful.
See above.
My point is that Imperials don't have ability to engage at ranges that Star Wars non-canon gives them.
You still don't understand what a stationary target is, do you?
Which are all non-canon.
Yet you have no problem with allowing them when you have the impression that they help your cause.
And can Star Wars jamming tech jam Star Trek sensors? We never heard of subspace in Star Wars, nor did we hear of hyperspace jamming and hyperspace sensors, in case that hyperspace is also subspace.
See above.
Beacouse firing at longer range requires more energy?
...why?
If you want to fire few hundred kilogram torpedo at long range, with speed that allows you to hit enemy in any reasonable time; e.g., so as not to expend any of reactants on board torpedo on manouvering and acceleration, you have to expend several gigatons of energy per torpedo. Mass lightening could drop it to several hundred megatons per torpedo at most.
Not if the target is moving in a predictable path, as I have pointed out.
Flares? Maybe some plasma or antimatter-based trick?
Which shows that you have been watching too much Star Trek. Some "antimatter based trick"? What?
And if said missiles are not shielded, cube simply shoots them down. Or changes course.
Oh, the cube could do that...no, it doesn't bother to try in the battles, not to mention that although a modern missile could hit it, it would do no harm and the borg would not bother to avoid it.
Since we are not talking about him going to bathroom, but rather about starships shooting at each other... besides, we know that he is human, and humans go to bathroom. So... thought I fail to see relevance in your post.
Better analogy; we never see Han Solo cry, iirc, so does that mean that he has never cried?
And it matters how? Age of sail ship can take more cannonballs than modern cruiser can take guided missiles. That makes modern cruiser inferior how?
Again, you forget context.
Federation fleet still lost good deal of ships. Plus you forget that there are things such as damage control, structural fields and shields.
None of which have been shown to justify charging straight through an enemy formation.
Yet we see weapons mounted at both CIS and Republic fleets that are clearly intended for age-of-sail type combat.
The flax cannons were, because they could shoot down projectiles as they approached the hull. The Battle of Endor clearly shows that typical Star Wars combat is not fought like age of sail.
Slow. Sloooow. Ever watched TESB? I think never.
Justify how the Death Star circumnavigated Yavin then. Or this:
"Some were frightening, some less so, but none were as indicative of power held in check as the four silvery starships which burst
into view above the observer. Keeping a tight formation, they exploded through humid air to vanish in seconds into the morning cloud cover far above. Sound-shadows rattled the trees moments later, in a forlorn attempt to catch up to the engines which had produced them."
Contradicted by movie, by the way. They did not form two „pincers“, and could have as well jumped into place. Or maybe were there from beginning.
The imperial fleet was already combined into one flying wedge by the time we see them in the movies, so there is no contradiction.
In Wounded Cardassian transport uses high-powered subspace field to hide contents of its cargo bays.
And this can be extrapolated to jamming targeting system how?
If 50% is „vast numbers“...
For such suicidal tactics, sure.
Or micro-torpedoes.
What? Did you respond to the right post?
I just watched scene, and he only told Galaxy and cruiser wings to „drop to half impulse“. We don't know what happened between that and fighters engaging. Plus, racing a slalom throught enemy fleet at full impulse is sure way to get yourself killed. Or you think they were kamikazes of sorts?
Eh, let's drop that part given that Star Wars occasionally has this problem, but Sisko did say full impulse/half impulse of the sort, and yet the fighters clearly were using less than 0.000001% of what they can supposedly do.
They are. Torpedoes are in low gigatons, and phasers seem to be around ½ to 1/5th of torpedo yield. So yes, phasers are pretty much in hundreds of megatons.
If torpeodos were low gigatons, why is the showing of quantum torpedos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHTtOMWRysg
Not gigaton level at all?
Have we seen these ships fire against ANYTHING quantifiable?
The interiors of a ship with combustible air?
Proof?
If the phasers were kiloton level, one blast would have cleared the entire ship.
They wouldn't be trying to board ship with it if it couldn't match Voyager's acceleration.
So then why did they not crank up acceleration? Would the Voyager not have more thrust to escape?
And lowering yield in process? You really have way for „logic“...
Red herring; that's out of context.
Jem'Hadar aren't above killing themselves to prove the point, so they would have either intercepted and shot down or rammed fleet, ship-by-ship. Plus, Star Trek ships have sensors with ranges measured in light hours - Silicon Avatar as example.
How does one intercept and ram right into a ship moving at 0.8 C, when they failed to do so when the ships are moving at 0.0000001C?
IT WAS intercepted, and chased. And had not Klingons saved the day, she would probably have been destroyed.
It was chased, not intercepted, at supersonic speeds.
We saw Riker's assesment ON SCREEN. Meanwhile, all you are trying to do with BDZ is to push non-canon and replace canon with it.
Total red herring and goalpost shift. Your rationalization (note how you have to try and wave away your quote?) is that the person in the shelter was a civilian and miscalculated the power of turbolasers by 1000 orders of magnitude, even though the person was a military trained agent.
Very funny. We left thread beacouse we were derailing it. So, no, it is not about BDZ.
Right, we were derailing a thread and decided to continue it here. This includes BDZ.
Small town – US small town, as it is intended to US audience
vaporization – as commonly used. Meaning this:
Provide an example of Star Wars authors ever breaking the 4th wall.
Oh please. Explain why you are using Hiroshima, mostly built out of wood structures, as a benchmark for a Star Wars small town?
They use fusion for power production. ML is only logical explanation.
More circular reasoning!
Fusion power scales as the fourth power of the B (magnetic) field and the cube of the size. Meaning that you are bullshitting.
Of course, citation is needed.
Except that Federation ships have shown acceleration of 362 962 963 km/h^2. Calculate how much energy is required for that without mass lightening. That is 100 823 045.3 m/s^2.
F = ma, so for Intrepid class F = 7.0576 x 10e16 N. J = N x m, so to accelerate by that every 50.4 thousand kilometers (timeframe of 1 second), you need 3.557 x 10e24 W; that is 3.56 x 10e12 TW, or 3.6 billion petawatts. Which is ~38 % of power production given to Imperial Star Destroyer by ICS. And there are some people here who do not agree with me on mass lightening. BTW, if we take DS9 technical manual and decide to cherry pick like you do – taking just mass of ship (4 500 000 metric tons) and using calculated acceleration – we get F = 4.537 x 10e17 N, giving us power production of 2.287 x 10e25 W. For comparation, non-canon CCS lists ISD's peak power output as 9.28 x 10e24 W. Whoops. What usage of non-canon information as well as bit of cherry picking can do.
And exactly where did you get estimates for the mass of the Intrepid?
And I just watched it. They did not circumnavigate planet completely – Rebel display was quite off when compared to one on Death Star.
No it was not. You will provide evidence or admit that the Rebels would not use a display console that is completely inaccurate (notice how you are violating your own literary method?).
Semantics. We know that they obviously were going faster than that earlier; they probably decelerated beforehand to avoid zipping past the Death Star.
I don't remember any. Plus, I was under impression that was about Nemesis.
Ah, Nemesis. Nemesis, which shows a kiloton level ram damaging a ship.
How is atomic bomb dangerous beacouse it is different than TNT? It does thing that are NOT NORMAL.
F'ing up communications has nothing to do with physical damage to the hull or shields.
I quoted PART OF POST THAT IS RELEVANT. YOU ASKED ME THIS:
What do warp impacts have to do with sublight speeds?
So I ANSWERED IT.
That was a portion of what I asked.
Within minutes.
Yes, which implies acceleration closely agreeing with the circumnavigation of Yavin.
It might have been half an hour, or hours. And Death Star display shows that there was no circumnavigation.
The script states that the Death Star will be in firing range in 30 minutes at the start of the battle.
Backup hyperdrive, maybe? Beacouse, you know, there is reason why „slower than light“ engines are called that way.
Backup hyperdrives of which Han could have simply just used right away? Obviously he was using sublight engines.
And notice how you are conveniently using what you consider to be non canon as evidence?
Small blip? And any proof it was in seconds? It might have been minutes.
As the Falcon dramatically exits the Death Star, it goes to a small blip with no scene cut in seconds.
1) Within MINUTES. It is small ship.
2) Circumnavigate, no. We see on Death Star's displays they did not have to circumnavigate half of planet, but rather small portion of it. Besides, they could have jumped.
3) backup hyperdrive. Or you think that 8 years to Alpha Centauri in .5c capable ship is reasonable?
4) there is cut between scenes. How you know it was within seconds?
1. Your acceleration figures would have meant that it took the Falcon weeks to approach the Death STar.
2. Notice how you provide no evidence of this, and also violate your own literary method, given that the Rebel display console was obviously meant to forbode and track the dramatic movement of the Death Star?
3. Or what about just over a year at 0.99C to a star system just a light year away?
4. There was no cut. The 'cut' started the Falcon exiting the Death Star; we see it exit in real time.
No, but I DO accept pure logic.
Nu uh, pure logic does not prove that the Falcon had a backup hyperdrive.
What above? That they can't go past ships in wormhole or what?
This...does not relate to my post. At all. Again.
Shields, anyone?
Red herring, yet again. Remember context.
Collisions? Jem'Hadar are crazy enough to slam into enemy ship if situation requires it. And warp core explosion + possibly loaded photon torpedoes = more than shields of similarly-sized or even larger ship can take.
They would have about a fraction of a blink of an eye to do so if the Federation used its 0.8 C engines, right?
Look 5-6 past posts.
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You mean the exact same thing that you claim you don't want to do?
