Me vs StarWarsStarTrek

[Picard]

I have noticed lately that my discussion with SWST has derailed more than one thread lately, due to me being hasty, as well as his dishonesty. So, I decided to create this thread to (hopefully) avoid further derailings.

Red herring. The star destroyer that was destroyed by the asteroid was not shielded. The other star destroyers were shielded, and an entire day's worth of hails of asteroids did nothing to them.

Entire day...? We don't know how long ISD's were in that field, so stop pulling "facts" out of your/Wong's ass... or EU, it's the same thing, as neither of them is canon. Plus, according to Wong, ISD's have solid neutronium hulls.

EU Star Wars authors are typically more logical than Star Trek writers. TCW authors though...they're up there with Star Trek writers.

Mining solid neutronium from surface of small moon is logical...? Please, that is worse than anything I ever saw in Star Trek.

THE BASE DELTA ZERO IS ONLY MENTIONED IN EU SOURCES. IF YOU DO NOT CONSIDER IT TO BE CANON, WHY ARE YOU PARTICIPATING IN THIS THREAD!!?!?!?

Beacouse I noticed that you ignore both CANON and EU evidence in order to promote your BS. That is why. You can't shoot down canon evidence by using EU, and you constantly cherry-pick, and not only in this, but in other threads too. Canon contradicts EU in that aspect, yet you choose to ignore it in all threads you participate in.

A "small town" of which darkstar assumed to be made entirely out of wood (instead of, you know, metal) and to be no larger than a modern small town. Did I mention that he added on an arbitrary definition of "figurative vaporization" that he pulled out of his ass?

No, he did not. You did not read his page. And I don't know why you assume that vaporization is suddenly used in scientific sense when Star Wars constantly uses expressions in common sense, or why you think he assumed that town was wood-built?

The officers were under orders to take Han and Leia alive. Any more misdirection attempts?

Yes, they did. But if Falcon had that wanktastic hull you claim for Star Wars, it would have survived complete destruction of asteroid, unless shot was aimed directly at it.
As for misdirection attempts, you are right, I should slow down debate with you, looks I'm taking some of your characteristics now.

Even before the last of its atmosphere drifted away,

I assumed it was base's atmosphere. But what about this:
" key areas of the base remained intact"

It is from Wookiepedia's article about Dankayo.

Because apparently, you're an elitist who does not consider rural areas to be civilized, or underground bunkers, or a tourist attraction headquarters inside a large mountain.

And why you think that surface has to be turned into lava in order to destroy villages too? Plus most of provisions that keep villages above medieval age technology level comes from factories.

Of course, a single ISD cannot BDZ a planet fast enough to prevent survivors from escaping or fighting back; one ISD cannot blockade an entire planet.

Nor can it destroy it to Saxton's level. I know that several sources specifically mention survivors. And not in deep planetary shelters.

As Saxton has pointed out (and as you guys ridicule...because...because it's too powerful!!!) "natural resources" include mineral deposits deep inside the mantel of the Earth, but nice try.

And we have no evidence of these being mined; and it is ridiculed beacouse it is contrary to canon and 99% of EU, in addition to being utterly dishonest.

And explain why you assume that airbursts are going to destroy, for example, an oil deposit located underground? Or a deposit of metals under a mountain?

They don't need to. Destroying industry and collapsing shafts should be enough.

What's this; unsupported claims?

Just watch your own posts, how many times you have been proven wrong, and yet returned with same lies.

"Have you ever seen what a Star Destroyer can do to the surface of an unshielded planet? Stones run like water and sand turns to glass."

Do you understand the use of the singular "a" and "destroyer" with no s at the end?

So go revise your BDZ calculations with the fact that a single star destroyer can do it in a matter of hours.

Yes, I do understand what that means. And I understand that it runs contrary to majority of EU, as seen in EU sources contrary to ICS thread.

Right, so an unshielded ISD getting destroyed is a sign of shield strength.

One of arguments for teraton-range guns is neutronium hull. Which does not exist. And proximity bursts of these supposedly-teraton guns should have cleaned way throught field pretty darn fast.

Contradiction of what? You still have yet to provide any solid contradictions of Base Delta Zero: an unshielded ISD's durability is not related.

As above.

The vast majority would be the quotes that I cited. So far you have cited zero quotes that describe base delta zero as anything less than turning the surface of a planet into slag.

Beacouse I don't have any EU books nor I am interested in reading them. Only one I have read so far is Thrawn Trilogy's "Rise of Dark Force"... only EU book I ever read... where slow-moving 600-meters heavy cruiser ramming ISD is enough to destroy both ships... so much for Neutronium hulls. In addition, light saber was able to cut right throught Dreadnought's hull.

You, of course, will prove this.

Watch movie. When they are listening to fleet's communications, messages were full of static even before proper engagement started.

So if the Enterprise's photon torpedos yielded low gigaton level (which you use your circular "Federation hull strength is awesome!" claim), then why was the Breen attack on Earth only damaging to a section of the San Fransisco bay area? Given the rather high RoF of photon torpedos, even ten seconds of open time to fire at Earth would have started a dangerous nuclear winter...if photon torpedos were gigaton level.

Ever heard of term "planetary shields"? Beacose from same series we know that Defiant class vessel can turn planet into "smoking cinder." Gigatons are low end for achieving that in rapid order (which was needed, beacouse Sisko would have stopped bombardment sooner or later despite Garak's attempted meddlings).

This quote is too vague to prove anything. You're making the stupid connection in logic that "abstract problem in mass-energy conversion" means "converting the moon's mass into energy" (which would not explain why Han Solo and the crew encountered an asteroid field as they approached where Alderaan once was).

And where would Luke Skywalker at this point even know that the superlaser was a chain reaction weapon, if it was one? Did he view the "shattered remnants of Alderaan" (why Alderaan would have shattered remnants if it were converted into energy is something you have not explained) and deduce using his farmboy education that the Death Star used a matter-energy chain reaction?

No, it is not. It is quite straight-forward. And no, that conversion does not need to be complete.

Excuse me? Why were they even closing within such ranges in the first place? Were they interested in taking photos of the cube?

No, beacouse they wanted to limit it's area of fire, and be more precise when targeting subsystems... even when you ignore possibility of jamming. Also, in Scorpion Part I Voyager was shaken by passage of 15 cubes, possibly by subspace fields. We already know that subspace fields can affect sensors, and are you biased enough to think that Borg are stubid enough not to realize it?

If Federation targeting technology cannot accurately target subsystems at any more than a few km/s^2, said targeting technology is comparatively crap.

It is not needed at such short ranges. Plus, do you know how small these subsystems are o make such statements? And what about Imperials failing to hit Millenium Falcon? Or about Lakota not missing defiant single time despite being old bucket?

What the...these are photon torpeodos. They are going to explode, and you are going to lose them. Photon torpedos are expendable munitions that thrust on their own power.

Not to mention that, if photon torpedos really were gigaton level like you claim, accelerating at even 50 km/s^2 would be comparatively insignificant.

Photon torpedoes are launched by torpedo launcher. Do you know how much energy is required to accelerate 3.5-ton torpedo to large velocity? Or how to turn that torpedo once launched? And later slow it down to avoid malfunctions as well as allow better precision needed to hit comparatively small subsystems? If we take start speed as being 50 000 km/s (and speed in Wounded was yet larger) then it means ONE GIGATON OF ENERGY USED JUST TO FIRE ONE TORPEDO. Plus each gigaton of energy used to increase it's speed by another 50 000 km/s - and torpedo has maximum yield of 5 gigatons. And most newer ships (Sovereign, Akira) were using 3- or 5- torpedo bursts. You might not like my explanation, so whine all you wan't, but it does not ignore canon evidence - unlike you do.

There are numerous orbit scenes that show Star Trek ships not moving faster than escape velocity when it surely would have suited them to have done so.

Relative to camera, mostly. Or relative to one another. And show me one such example.

Read the title of this thread. If you are not willing to accept BDZ operation examples as existing because they do not fit with your interpretation of canon, why are you in this thread?

Beacouse I simply forgot name of damn thread while trying to cope with your dishonesty.

If you are going to argue BDZ, you have to accept it as a canon fact that it at least exists,

I can accept it exists in Star Wars non canon, and I can argue about it and about connected things in this thread, but I will not accept it as canon. Beacouse it is not canon.

and by extension, that the EU is canon/official/etc for at least just this thread.

It cannot be canon for one thread, beacouse there is no such thing as "thread canon". It can only be that thread is about non-canon - and for oversight, I apologize.

Are you letting ST technobabble take a hold of you? How is Yavin's gravity well supposed to accelerate an object the size of a small moon by 64 km/s^2?

Gravity works both ways. Plus, Death Star is 120 km in diameter, but is mostly hollow and does not have mass even nearly comparable to small moon of its size.

No it's not. The Rebel Fleet never had to circumnavigate Endor, and the Death Star was more or less still during the Battle of Endor (until it blew up). Your reading comprehension skills need to improve. Both Yavin and Endor have impressive speed feats, yet that feat that I was referring to was Yavin, where both fleets circumnavigated Yavin within minutes.

I did not know that bunch of fighters constitute "fleet". It's "squadron" or "wing", but not "fleet". Improve terminology. And mobile space station with its fighters certainly does not constitute "fleet". By that logic, lone aircraft carrier, or destroyer with 2 helicopters is fleet. Yet I have heard about US 2nd or 7th fleets, but never about US Fleet USS Nimitz.

Your hypocrisy is astounding. You accuse me of misusing speed/acceleration terms, yet in your own link you mention "maximum speed"...in space? The only maximum speed in space is the speed of light.

You have again not read what rides at fucking link. You just gave it glance, saw words "maximum speed" and dozed off. What it is reffering to is maximum speed achievable within certain timeframe.

Let me help you:

As for acceleration, refit Enterprise in ST:TMP went from Eart to Jupiter in 1.8 hours.

Minimum distance between Earth and Jupiter is 588 million kilometers, according to this page. That gives us average speed of 326 666 667 kilometers per hour. Maximum speed should be (at Jupiter) 653 333 333 kilometers per hour. That gives us acceleration of exactly 362 962 963 km/h^2, or 100 823 045.3 m/s^2.

As for first sentence in link, it is not my fault if writers f*** up. I merely stated what was stated in damn episode. Now, it might be issue of acceleration, but writers, to best of my knowledge, gave no other data other than speed of storm in second one, and direct statement that maximum impulse speed is 0.8 c. Now, it might just be maximum speed at which navigational deflector can perform it's job, or where structural integrity/warp field can allow ship to turn at acceptable rate.

Actually, there is a de-facto maximum speed (in fact, only one possible, other than fear of debris and C); fuel reserves. A maximum speed of 0.8 C means that the ship cannot go any faster. There is no braking mechanism in space, so this must be because:

1. Space debris gets too dangerous at those velocities.
2. The ship does not have enough fuel to accelerate further.

Let's look at the possibilities:

1. The probability of hitting a large asteroid in space is ridiculously small, so the only debris that a ship would likely hit are small particles of dust, which are pretty dangerous at relativistic relative speeds. If the Enterprise would get hit with a total of, for example, 70 kilograms of debris in medium distance trips, that is approximately 2e18 joules of energy, or about a gigaton.

2. Measures out to about e25 joules, which is actually pretty darn impressive, although this is the entire fuel reserve of the Voyager.

Really? What about flying throught outer fringes of solar system, etc? Or run into asteroid storm, debris from blown-up star or something else? Althought your second guess might be worth looking over, since we know that impulse engines do not run on same power as rest of ship (probably on fusion generators). Additionally, there might be limit to navigational deflector, which is probably best explanation.

But these figures are highly contradictory, since there are numerous examples in which ST ships clearly do not move any faster than a few km/s.

They simply move at velocity required at that moment.

[Picard]

Accelerating torpedo via warp would probably require torpedo to have warp field initiator and use its own energy source - thereby reducing yield. But combination of two is certainly possible, as is mass lightening.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Entire day...? We don't know how long ISD's were in that field, so stop pulling "facts" out of your/Wong's ass... or EU, it's the same thing, as neither of them is canon. Plus, according to Wong, ISD's have solid neutronium hulls.

The various bounty hunters had to pack up their things and rendevous at the fleet from various parts of the galaxy. Decreasing the speed of hyperdrive increases the amount of time in which the ISD’s remained in the asteroid fleet.

Mining solid neutronium from surface of small moon is logical...? Please, that is worse than anything I ever saw in Star Trek.

Not all elements in the Star Wars EU are rational, but they pale in the number of stupid plot holes in Star Trek. Or is there a reason as to why the borg only ever send one cube at a time to get destroyed?

Beacouse I noticed that you ignore both CANON and EU evidence in order to promote your BS. That is why. You can't shoot down canon evidence by using EU, and you constantly cherry-pick, and not only in this, but in other threads too. Canon contradicts EU in that aspect, yet you choose to ignore it in all threads you participate in.

Cherry pick? Surely you have no idea what cherry pick actually means. The majority of sources that mention or imply Base Delta Zero support Saxton figures. It’s not cherry picking when you have a half dozen unrelated sources all supporting your theory.

No, he did not. You did not read his page. And I don't know why you assume that vaporization is suddenly used in scientific sense when Star Wars constantly uses expressions in common sense, or why you think he assumed that town was wood-built?

The problem is not that darkstar assumed figurative vaporization, it’s that he attempted to quantify an upper limit to figurative vaporization. How did darkstar determine what level of destruction counts as “figurative vaporization” and what level of destruction counts as…uh, “destruction?”

Yes, they did. But if Falcon had that wanktastic hull you claim for Star Wars, it would have survived complete destruction of asteroid, unless shot was aimed directly at it.
As for misdirection attempts, you are right, I should slow down debate with you, looks I'm taking some of your characteristics now.

You, of course, will prove this. You will also quit trying to place the blame for misdirection attempts on me.

Quote:
Even before the last of its atmosphere drifted away,


I assumed it was base's atmosphere. But what about this:
" key areas of the base remained intact"

Your assumption is stupid, Picard. How could only the atmosphere around the base drift away? Why would the thermal energy of the turbolasers not dissipate into the rest of the atmosphere? Why wouldn’t the rest of the atmosphere outside of the section of which the turbolaser’s energy was magically contained within dissipate into the empty space?

The fact that, despite the planet’s atmosphere being blown away (it’s ridiculous for only the atmosphere around the base to be blown off as the thermal energy is magically contained and none of the other atmosphere dissipates like it should), elements of the Rebel base was still intact, is an example of the amazing durability of Star Wars structures.

It is from Wookiepedia's article about Dankayo.



And why you think that surface has to be turned into lava in order to destroy villages too? Plus most of provisions that keep villages above medieval age technology level comes from factories.

That’s not what the quote stated, Picard. Even the figurative meaning of slag is “screw over the land”. Destroying the major industries and factories is not going to turn the rural areas of the planet to slag, neither figuratively nor literally.

Nor can it destroy it to Saxton's level. I know that several sources specifically mention survivors. And not in deep planetary shelters.

How do you know it was not in deep planetary shelters? We know from the Dankayo BDZ that a star destroyer can rip the atmosphere off from a planet; no person that’s not in a specifically designed bunker is going to survive that.

And we have no evidence of these being mined; and it is ridiculed beacouse it is contrary to canon and 99% of EU, in addition to being utterly dishonest.

Since when would it have to be mined? Fossil fuels and metal deposits count as natural resources. If you want to think about it, hydrogen deep inside a planet counts as natural resources, as would lava banks.

They don't need to. Destroying industry and collapsing shafts should be enough.

For your imaginary definition of BDZ. Actual quotes show that BDZ is not to send civilization back into the stone age; it literally turns the civilized world to slag and sometimes even rips the atmosphere off of a planet. This is a far cry from what you are claiming, which is essentially a hypothetical nuclear winter.

Just watch your own posts, how many times you have been proven wrong, and yet returned with same lies.

Is this the best reasoning and evidence you can provide for your accusation? To tell me to look over my posts to see your claim? Am I supposed to find evidence for your accusation?

Yes, I do understand what that means. And I understand that it runs contrary to majority of EU, as seen in EU sources contrary to ICS thread.

Red herring. We are not discussing how Base Delta Zero is supported by the rest of the EU, we are discussing what BDZ is and to what magnitude the bombardment associate with it is.

I have provided a half dozen quotes supporting Base Delta Zero, and your only response is to claim that they are contradicted by the EU. A half dozen sources, Picard, all from separate authors.

One of arguments for teraton-range guns is neutronium hull. Which does not exist. And proximity bursts of these supposedly-teraton guns should have cleaned way throught field pretty darn fast.

Kinetic resistance =/= thermal resistance, the latter of which is relevant to resisting turbolasers.

As above.

What’s also interesting is the fact that Federation ships have been visibly penetrated by slow moving projectiles far slower and massing far less than the asteroid that destroyed the ISD’s bridge tower.

Beacouse I don't have any EU books nor I am interested in reading them. Only one I have read so far is Thrawn Trilogy's "Rise of Dark Force"... only EU book I ever read... where slow-moving 600-meters heavy cruiser ramming ISD is enough to destroy both ships... so much for Neutronium hulls. In addition, light saber was able to cut right throught Dreadnought's hull.

How do you know that the heavy cruiser was slow-moving, when A New Hope shows that even the Death Star can accelerate at 64 km/s.

Watch movie. When they are listening to fleet's communications, messages were full of static even before proper engagement started.

Obviously there would be static, but nothing that would imply an inability to hit a 10 km by 10 km by 10 km cube from more than 10 kilometers away.

Ever heard of term "planetary shields"? Beacose from same series we know that Defiant class vessel can turn planet into "smoking cinder." Gigatons are low end for achieving that in rapid order (which was needed, beacouse Sisko would have stopped bombardment sooner or later despite Garak's attempted meddlings).

So if these planetary shields around Earth that were never mentioned (but can be reasonably postulated to exist) were put up as the Breen forces attacked, there would have to be two possibilities to explain why Earth was even damaged at all, which it was:

1. The shield was eventually penetrated
2. There was bleed through damage, much like Star Trek shields.

Let’s see:

1. If the Breen forces did penetrate the shield, then why was only San Fransico midly affected there they really did possess gigaton level photon torpeodos? Even ten seconds of a wide open Earth would be enough to instigate a nuclear winter with supposedly gigaton level torpedos at the RoF that Star Trek ships can perform. Even a single photon torpedo would be a few orders of magnitude more destructive than the damage done in the attack if the torpedos were gigaton level.
2. So 99.99999% of the torpedos’ energy was blocked by the shields, and only 0.00001% happened to get through? The Federation better be extremely lucky that their shields were not 0.0001% less powerful/efficient, or Earth would have been screwed.

No, it is not. It is quite straight-forward. And no, that conversion does not need to be complete.

Explain where in “abstract problem in mass-energy conversion” is it stated that the superlaser is a chain reaction weapon; it isn’t.

No, beacouse they wanted to limit it's area of fire,

Picard, you have just stated one of the most stupid handwaves I have seen on this board. So you’re actually stating that the 10 km ranges were not due to VFX error, or crap ranges, but a conscious choice by the Starfleet officers? That they could have engaged at 100,000 km, but chose to engage at 10 km? And their reason is to “limit its field of fire”??

You’ve got to be kidding me. What is this “limit its field of fire” that you speak of? How is closing within 10 km of a ship that can supposedly attack from 100,000 km away so that you can “limit its field of fire” halfway intelligent? Do you suppose that modern admirals close their aircraft carriers within 100 meters of the enemy fleet to “limit its field of fire”? What bullshit pseudotactics is that?

And your hypocrisy is shown when you blast TCW, stating that star destroyers have a range of a few kilometers. But surely, by your own logic, this was to “limit its field of fire”, right?

and be more precise when targeting subsystems... even when you ignore possibility of jamming. Also, in Scorpion Part I Voyager was shaken by passage of 15 cubes, possibly by subspace fields. We already know that subspace fields can affect sensors, and are you biased enough to think that Borg are stubid enough not to realize it?

I request evidence suggesting that subspace fields can hinder sensors to the point of which it cannot target a 1000 km^3 ship from beyond 10 kilometers away, and why the Enterprise was able to mark specific coordinates on the cube’s structure if they were being jammed/interfered with.

Even with passive sensors, if ST ships really did have ranges in the 100,000 km+, the fleet should have been able to hit the borg cube with effectively 100% accuracy. In fact, even without sensors, some basic eyeballing should have been enough to hit the borg cube from a decent distance away.

It is not needed at such short ranges.

But it is needed at long ranges, which the Federation fleet should have been engaging in if they had any sort of competence.

Plus, do you know how small these subsystems are o make such statements?

The borg cube did not appear to have any subsystems the fleet could target, other than the weak spot that Picard informed them of. The fleet seemed to simply be firing at the hull.

And what about Imperials failing to hit Millenium Falcon?

The Falcon was dodging and juking, and had jamming equipment. The borg cube was so big and moving along a predicable course; with technology not that far beyond our own, we could hit it with missiles from across the star system.

Or about Lakota not missing defiant single time despite being old bucket?

They got lucky? How about the colliding dominion and Federation fleets missing each other when they literally passed right by one another? Or Janeway not trying to shoot down the slow moving object moving towards the Voyager?

Photon torpedoes are launched by torpedo launcher. Do you know how much energy is required to accelerate 3.5-ton torpedo to large velocity? Or how to turn that torpedo once launched? And later slow it down to avoid malfunctions as well as allow better precision needed to hit comparatively small subsystems? If we take start speed as being 50 000 km/s (and speed in Wounded was yet larger) then it means ONE GIGATON OF ENERGY USED JUST TO FIRE ONE TORPEDO. Plus each gigaton of energy used to increase it's speed by another 50 000 km/s - and torpedo has maximum yield of 5 gigatons. And most newer ships (Sovereign, Akira) were using 3- or 5- torpedo bursts. You might not like my explanation, so whine all you wan't, but it does not ignore canon evidence - unlike you do.

But the photon torpedos probably accelerate under their own fuel reserves; otherwise, how could they be expected to adjust their trajectory to hit a mobile target? And the borg cube battle shows photon torpepedos moving no faster than a few kilometers per second.

Relative to camera, mostly. Or relative to one another. And show me one such example.

Why didn’t Sisko and the Federation fleet shoot past the dominion fleet at relativistic speeds?

Beacouse I simply forgot name of damn thread while trying to cope with your dishonesty.

Stupid excuse, Picard. I have given you several quotes blatantly backing up Base Delta Zero, and your response is to dismiss them as contradicting the rest of the EU, despite the fact that I have a half dozen quotes from various authors supporting it.

I can accept it exists in Star Wars non canon, and I can argue about it and about connected things in this thread, but I will not accept it as canon. Beacouse it is not canon.

Whatever you want to call it, there are simply too many quotes supporting a high end BDZ to dismiss. Are you claiming that the atmosphere of Dankayo was blown off by a wizard?

It cannot be canon for one thread, beacouse there is no such thing as "thread canon". It can only be that thread is about non-canon - and for oversight, I apologize.

Base Delta Zero is a part of the Star Wars continuity. It is C canon, which is recognized by Lucasarts as below G and T canon, but still canon.

Gravity works both ways. Plus, Death Star is 120 km in diameter, but is mostly hollow and does not have mass even nearly comparable to small moon of its size.

Show me calculations, because Yavin could not possibly have accelerated the Death Star at 64 km/s^2, nor is there any evidence that it did. The Death Star accelerated under its own power, e29 joules per second.

As for the density of the Death Star, I was assuming densities of a GSC, which is also mostly hollow.

I did not know that bunch of fighters constitute "fleet". It's "squadron" or "wing", but not "fleet". Improve terminology. And mobile space station with its fighters certainly does not constitute "fleet". By that logic, lone aircraft carrier, or destroyer with 2 helicopters is fleet. Yet I have heard about US 2nd or 7th fleets, but never about US Fleet USS Nimitz.

What a spectacular nitpick, Picard. Since you are done with explaining to me terminology such as fleet and squadrons, would you like to address the subject at hand?

You have again not read what rides at fucking link. You just gave it glance, saw words "maximum speed" and dozed off. What it is reffering to is maximum speed achievable within certain timeframe.

What timeframe? Why did you not specify this arbitrary timeframe that you suddenly clarify?

Let me help you:

MyWebsite wrote:
As for acceleration, refit Enterprise in ST:TMP went from Eart to Jupiter in 1.8 hours.

Minimum distance between Earth and Jupiter is 588 million kilometers, according to this page. That gives us average speed of 326 666 667 kilometers per hour. Maximum speed should be (at Jupiter) 653 333 333 kilometers per hour. That gives us acceleration of exactly 362 962 963 km/h^2, or 100 823 045.3 m/s^2.

Then explain why whenever ships “prepare for ramming speed”, they mean to accelerate at a few kilometers/s^2 instead of at several hundred thousand kilometers/s^2.

As for first sentence in link, it is not my fault if writers f*** up. I merely stated what was stated in damn episode. Now, it might be issue of acceleration, but writers, to best of my knowledge, gave no other data other than speed of storm in second one, and direct statement that maximum impulse speed is 0.8 c. Now, it might just be maximum speed at which navigational deflector can perform it's job, or where structural integrity/warp field can allow ship to turn at acceptable rate.

Really? What about flying throught outer fringes of solar system, etc?

So the Enterprise, which you claim can tank gigaton level torpedos, is afraid of flying through the “outer fringes of the solar system”? Is Galactus waiting on the fringes and is hungry for Federation starships?

Or run into asteroid storm, debris from blown-up star or something else?

The chances of these happening are about the chances of you shooting a sniper rifle with your eyes closed and it happening to hit an apple a kilometer away, and should not be a problem with the Federation or Star Wars’s sensors, or even modern sensors at that.

Althought your second guess might be worth looking over, since we know that impulse engines do not run on same power as rest of ship (probably on fusion generators). Additionally, there might be limit to navigational deflector, which is probably best explanation.

And if the navigational deflectors are not sufficient to block incoming debris at such speeds, why could they not use the standard shields? Are even those unable to stop the gigaton level impacts that you claim the Enterprise can tank?

They simply move at velocity required at that moment.

So when Sisko and his crew are racing towards the wormhole as fast as they can, only a few km/s^2 are deemed necessary?

[Picard]

Breetai, if you want to comment, then please make damn commentary thread yourself.

BTW, who are admins on forum? Now it would be better to slice irrelevant posts out of thread and make them into commentary thread.

The various bounty hunters had to pack up their things and rendevous at the fleet from various parts of the galaxy. Decreasing the speed of hyperdrive increases the amount of time in which the ISD’s remained in the asteroid fleet.

http://picard578.hostoi.com/startrek-vs ... asers.html

Most of these asteroids are actually relatively small. If we take 15 meters as average, and iron composition, that is 14 000 t per asteroid. We see that ISD isn't being constantly bombarded – most of larger asteroids are destroyed, and rest are few meters in diameter at best (3 meters – 112 t). Ek = 0.5 x m x v^2 . As most asteroids are floating at relatively small speeds, velocity is same as velocity as destroyer, around 400 meters per second in chase scene. Velocity was probably even lower during normal operations. Given distance between asteroids, it would mean around 1 larger and 20-30 smaller asteroid impacts every 5 to 10 seconds. Energy is 1.12 x 10e12 J for large and 8.96 x 10e9 J for small asteroids – totalling 1.3 x 10e11 to 1.4e12 J. That is 7.8 x 10e11 to 1.68 x 10e13 J per minute, or 0.031 to 0.335 kilotons per minute. Even if they stayed in field for entire day, that is only 44.64 to 482.4 megatons total capacity for ISD's shields. Well within ISD's capacity, as seen in link below:

http://picard578.hostoi.com/startrek-vs ... ields.html

Plus, how do you know how far bounty hunters were? There were not many of them, and Vader might have as well already planned that before the attack, given his Force powers („seeing“ history) and we simply see them first time it seems that Falcon will disappear.

Not all elements in the Star Wars EU are rational, but they pale in the number of stupid plot holes in Star Trek. Or is there a reason as to why the borg only ever send one cube at a time to get destroyed?

Borg send exactly as many ships as they deem enough for the job. In both cases, that „single cube“ would have fulfilled its goal, if it were not for „special circumstances“ – capture of Locotus in first instance, and fact that Picard knew cube's weakness in second instance. Does the fact that they don't prepare for something they can't foresee make them incopentent? No.

Cherry pick? Surely you have no idea what cherry pick actually means. The majority of sources that mention or imply Base Delta Zero support Saxton figures. It’s not cherry picking when you have a half dozen unrelated sources all supporting your theory.

First, Expanded Universe is not canon. Now, that was thread about EU, so I (again) apologize. But that does not mean I will allow it here. I will answer it now, still.

Second, you gave no proof that majority of sources support Saxton's figures.

These are quites I have:

Base Delta Zero is the Imperial code order to destroy all population centres and resources, including industry, natural resources and cities.

Destroying „all population centres and resources“ means denying them to opponent. Saying that melting crust is required to do it is logical fallacy – destroying sources of certain resources (forests, mine shafts, fisheries, fishing boats, farms, corp fields, etc) is enough to deny them to the enemy.

"System bombard contains an average of 100 ships divided between three bombard squadrons and a light squadron. If an admiral feels that force superiority has done less than a thorough job of removing hostile craft from the system, a system bombard squadron will be augmented with ships from the light squadron."

So, there are „bombard squadrons“ and „light squadron“. It is clear that lone ISD cannot perform Base Delta Zero – entire squadron of ships is needed.

"... to rendezvous at Dankayo and reduce the tiny base to molten slag. Even before the last of its atmosphere drifted away, before the dense clouds of atomized topsoil could begin to settle, Imperial transports Elusive and Timely, as well as a complement of TIE fighters, moved in to perform "mop-up" operations and a thorough search of Dankayo's now evenly-cratered surface."
-- Scavenger Hunt, p.3

Small base at Dankayo was melted by 3 ISD's and base's atmosphere drifted away. Which means that 3 ISD's were shelling base, not entire planet/moon.

"The Imperial Star Destroyer has enough firepower to reduce a civilized world to slag."
-- Imperial Sourcebook

If one ISD can reduce any random world to slag, adding „civilized“ would be unnecessary. Therefore, BDZ is equivalent of GO24 – destroying cities, villages, factories, mines, etc.

"Sir, what about bombardment? Is there a stage for that?"
"Blasting a planet from orbit is easy -- you don't need me to tell you how to do that. Limited orbital strikes would occur during the invasion stage. Just hope you are never given a Base Delta Zero order, lieutenant. Ah, yes, another question?"
"Sir, what's the Base Delta Zero order?"
"Base Delta Zero is the Imperial code order to destroy all population centres and resources, including industry, natural resources and cities. All other Imperial codes are subject to change, as you well know, but this code is always the same to prevent any confusion when the order is given. Base Delta Zero is rarely issued. ...."
-- "A World to Conquer"

So, Base Delta Zero destroys population centres, industry and resources. Again, melting surface is unnecessary – direct hit from megaton-class weapon will destroy any factory, shipyard, mineshaft, or any other single structure we know of, and several hits are enough to depopulate large cities. Again, melting surface is unnecessary.

So, if you can provide several dozen quotes supporing your theory, go ahead. Even one will do fine, just to verify you are not lying, or intentionally misinterpreting evidence. But if you can't, stop lying.

The problem is not that darkstar assumed figurative vaporization, it’s that he attempted to quantify an upper limit to figurative vaporization. How did darkstar determine what level of destruction counts as “figurative vaporization” and what level of destruction counts as…uh, “destruction?”

He assumes what is most often used in context. „Vaporizing a town“ in common speech means producing effects that are similar to every building in town being vaporized. So, turned in dust (or ash) and carried away seems rather fine, thank you.

You, of course, will prove this. You will also quit trying to place the blame for misdirection attempts on me.

I did not blame you for my mistakes, I blame you for merely what you are constantly doing. Refer to above for details (base Delta Zero etc.).

Your assumption is stupid, Picard. How could only the atmosphere around the base drift away?

Prove that base is on planet, and not small moon. Beacouse if it is small moon, quote makes sense – it specifically refers to atmosphere inside the base. So, dome is breached – atmosphere in base drifts away.

Why would the thermal energy of the turbolasers not dissipate into the rest of the atmosphere? Why wouldn’t the rest of the atmosphere outside of the section of which the turbolaser’s energy was magically contained within dissipate into the empty space?

Providing that there is atmosphere outside base in first place.

The fact that, despite the planet’s atmosphere being blown away (it’s ridiculous for only the atmosphere around the base to be blown off as the thermal energy is magically contained and none of the other atmosphere dissipates like it should), elements of the Rebel base was still intact, is an example of the amazing durability of Star Wars structures.

No, it does not. First, EU is not canon, and so is superceded by canon. Second, base seems to be on airless moon.

That’s not what the quote stated, Picard. Even the figurative meaning of slag is “screw over the land”. Destroying the major industries and factories is not going to turn the rural areas of the planet to slag, neither figuratively nor literally.

Nor it does anywhere say it is about to turn them into slag.

How do you know it was not in deep planetary shelters? We know from the Dankayo BDZ that a star destroyer can rip the atmosphere off from a planet; no person that’s not in a specifically designed bunker is going to survive that.

They were in the base.

Since when would it have to be mined? Fossil fuels and metal deposits count as natural resources. If you want to think about it, hydrogen deep inside a planet counts as natural resources, as would lava banks.

And from where metal comes? From mines.

For your imaginary definition of BDZ. Actual quotes show that BDZ is not to send civilization back into the stone age; it literally turns the civilized world to slag and sometimes even rips the atmosphere off of a planet. This is a far cry from what you are claiming, which is essentially a hypothetical nuclear winter.

No, you have your imaginery (and in the end, irrelevant) definition if BDZ. I provided quotes. In this post.

Is this the best reasoning and evidence you can provide for your accusation? To tell me to look over my posts to see your claim? Am I supposed to find evidence for your accusation?

Beacouse it is obvious. And searching for all of your lies, analyzing them and bringing to you would take months.

Red herring. We are not discussing how Base Delta Zero is supported by the rest of the EU, we are discussing what BDZ is and to what magnitude the bombardment associate with it is.

I have provided a half dozen quotes supporting Base Delta Zero, and your only response is to claim that they are contradicted by the EU. A half dozen sources, Picard, all from separate authors.

Half dozen misinterpreted quotes from half dozen non-canon sources... quotes I don't remember seeing.

Kinetic resistance =/= thermal resistance, the latter of which is relevant to resisting turbolasers.

Except neutronium is supposed to be both kinetically and thermally super-resistant.

How do you know that the heavy cruiser was slow-moving, when A New Hope shows that even the Death Star can accelerate at 64 km/s.

As far as I remember (I read it over 5 years ago), it was specifically stated to be such.

Obviously there would be static, but nothing that would imply an inability to hit a 10 km by 10 km by 10 km cube from more than 10 kilometers away.

Except that it is 3 x 3 x 3 km cube, and there are few dozen sources where ships display range in tens to hundreds of thousands kilometers against much smaller targets.

Some of them are:
TNG
„The Wounded“
„A Matter of Honor“
„Skin of Evil“

DS9
„The Search“

TOS
„Changeling“
„Ultimate Computer“

And it is incomplete list.

2. There was bleed through damage, much like Star Trek shields.

As it is Star Trek shield, it means that it does have bleedthrought damage.

2. So 99.99999% of the torpedos’ energy was blocked by the shields, and only 0.00001% happened to get through? The Federation better be extremely lucky that their shields were not 0.0001% less powerful/efficient, or Earth would have been screwed.

Even after passing shield, energy has to pass few thousands kilometers to Earth (minimum for sufficient protection). Plus shields do have subspace field, and possibly some other measures to reduce damage from bleedthrought.

Explain where in “abstract problem in mass-energy conversion” is it stated that the superlaser is a chain reaction weapon; it isn’t.

It implies that turbolaser directly converts mass to energy throught some technobabble.

So you’re actually stating that the 10 km ranges were not due to VFX error, or crap ranges, but a conscious choice by the Starfleet officers?

Yes.

How is closing within 10 km of a ship that can supposedly attack from 100,000 km away so that you can “limit its field of fire” halfway intelligent?

Torpedoes can manouver. Not fast, but they can. It also limits Borg's ability to analyze weapons coming right at it and adapt before weapons fire even reaches it.

And your hypocrisy is shown when you blast TCW, stating that star destroyers have a range of a few kilometers.

http://picard578.hostoi.com/startrek-vs ... asers.html

http://picard578.hostoi.com/startrek-vs ... ctive.html

Where do I state that turbolasers have range of few kilometers? Few hundred kilometers is only thing I can remember.

I request evidence suggesting that subspace fields can hinder sensors

„Wounded“

to the point of which it cannot target a 1000 km^3 ship from beyond 10 kilometers away, and why the Enterprise was able to mark specific coordinates on the cube’s structure if they were being jammed/interfered with.

No, to the point they can't target it's subsystems.

Even with passive sensors, if ST ships really did have ranges in the 100,000 km+, the fleet should have been able to hit the borg cube with effectively 100% accuracy. In fact, even without sensors, some basic eyeballing should have been enough to hit the borg cube from a decent distance away.

Not to hit subsystems. And you can't ignore things that are equally canon as other things you claim are right just beacouse you don't like them.

But it is needed at long ranges, which the Federation fleet should have been engaging in if they had any sort of competence.

Really? Elaborate, please. Give pros and cons of engaging Borg at long range.

Let me give you same for engaging them at short range

PROS
- allows for better precision against subsystems
- decreases reaction time
- does not allow Borg to scan frequency of torpedoes mid-flight and adapt
allows better concentration of forces – there is no evidence that Borg would not use something like Picard manouver to pick off ships one by one

CONS
- None – Borg can engage them at both long and short range

The borg cube did not appear to have any subsystems the fleet could target, other than the weak spot that Picard informed them of. The fleet seemed to simply be firing at the hull.

These subsystems are inside the hull. You obviously play space RTS games too much. How old are you?

The Falcon was dodging and juking, and had jamming equipment. The borg cube was so big and moving along a predicable course; with technology not that far beyond our own, we could hit it with missiles from across the star system.

More BS.

First, we never hear of Falcon having jamming equipmentr in canon.
Second, you really think we now could hit cube with missiles from across star system?

Let me set you straight:
1) Diameter of Neptune's orbit is 60 AU or 8 975 880 000 kilometers
2) Speed of light (and radio waves) is 300 000 km/s. Meaning that by time radio waves get back, information is over 8 hours old
3) even without that, fastest anti-ship missile I know is China's DF-21D kinetic penetrator missile, travelling at 12 250 km/h, with range of 1500 km. Allowing for 10 times the speed (since it is in space, with no air friction), it would still need 8 years to complete the trip
4) even without all that, it is fair bet that cube had jamming systems on-board, or could jam sensors, since we know that powerful subspace field can jam sensors of GCS (ref: „The Wounded“)

They got lucky?

Reaaaly lucky. They had 100% accuracy. Do you know what odds are of that?. 1:100 seems nice.

How about the colliding dominion and Federation fleets missing each other when they literally passed right by one another?

Only ship I remember Dominion fleet was missing was Defiant. Which was specifically designed to fight Borg.

Or Janeway not trying to shoot down the slow moving object moving towards the Voyager?

Episode.

But the photon torpedos probably accelerate under their own fuel reserves; otherwise, how could they be expected to adjust their trajectory to hit a mobile target?

Why sacrifice large amount of yield for initial launch? Course corrections are completely other thing, since you don't need that much energy as to launch it.

And the borg cube battle shows photon torpepedos moving no faster than a few kilometers per second.

As i said, not required at that moment. You are clinging to your interpretation of that battle like it invalidates everything else, despite movies being lower canon than TV series.

Why didn’t Sisko and the Federation fleet shoot past the dominion fleet at relativistic speeds?

Maybe bacouse they would be intercepted and shot down if they tried to? Add risk of relativistic collision to that, and fact that Jem'Hadar are known not to value their lives much...

Stupid excuse, Picard. I have given you several quotes blatantly backing up Base Delta Zero, and your response is to dismiss them as contradicting the rest of the EU, despite the fact that I have a half dozen quotes from various authors supporting it.

I have replied to them now. And it is not stupid excuse, it is simple reason. And show these quotes?

Whatever you want to call it, there are simply too many quotes supporting a high end BDZ to dismiss. Are you claiming that the atmosphere of Dankayo was blown off by a wizard?

No, it never existed. And canon overrules non-canon in any case.

Base Delta Zero is a part of the Star Wars continuity. It is C canon, which is recognized by Lucasarts as below G and T canon, but still canon.

And you and rest of warsies choose to try and put it above G-canon. And no, Lucas declared EU not to be canon.

Show me calculations, because Yavin could not possibly have accelerated the Death Star at 64 km/s^2, nor is there any evidence that it did. The Death Star accelerated under its own power, e29 joules per second.

As for the density of the Death Star, I was assuming densities of a GSC, which is also mostly hollow.

Galaxy class starship is NOT mostly hollow.

http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/bl ... heet-6.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2666/396 ... 9038ce.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2596/396 ... 87084f.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2651/396 ... 93a991.jpg

What a spectacular nitpick, Picard. Since you are done with explaining to me terminology such as fleet and squadrons, would you like to address the subject at hand?

Nitpick being? Your quote was wrong. Simple as that.

What timeframe? Why did you not specify this arbitrary timeframe that you suddenly clarify?

Read fucking page.

Then explain why whenever ships “prepare for ramming speed”, they mean to accelerate at a few kilometers/s^2 instead of at several hundred thousand kilometers/s^2.

Maybe beacouse intact ships with full power reserves will not choose to ram opponent? Main damage is done by M/AM explosion, since there probably is some mass lightening involved.

So the Enterprise, which you claim can tank gigaton level torpedos, is afraid of flying through the “outer fringes of the solar system”? Is Galactus waiting on the fringes and is hungry for Federation starships?

Flying at warp? It is more like teraton to petaton range.

The chances of these happening are about the chances of you shooting a sniper rifle with your eyes closed and it happening to hit an apple a kilometer away, and should not be a problem with the Federation or Star Wars’s sensors, or even modern sensors at that.

Coupled with previous...

And if the navigational deflectors are not sufficient to block incoming debris at such speeds, why could they not use the standard shields? Are even those unable to stop the gigaton level impacts that you claim the Enterprise can tank?

As above. Impacts of debris at warp are likely to be in teraton to petaton range.

So when Sisko and his crew are racing towards the wormhole as fast as they can, only a few km/s^2 are deemed necessary?

As fast as they can, yeah. Maybe you want to say they should have gone to full impulse and slam right into Dominion fleet? Or zip past them into Gamma Quadrant?

[StarWarsStarTrek]

http://picard578.hostoi.com/startrek-vs ... asers.html

Most of these asteroids are actually relatively small. If we take 15 meters as average, and iron composition, that is 14 000 t per asteroid. We see that ISD isn't being constantly bombarded – most of larger asteroids are destroyed, and rest are few meters in diameter at best (3 meters – 112 t). Ek = 0.5 x m x v^2 . As most asteroids are floating at relatively small speeds, velocity is same as velocity as destroyer, around 400 meters per second in chase scene. Velocity was probably even lower during normal operations. Given distance between asteroids, it would mean around 1 larger and 20-30 smaller asteroid impacts every 5 to 10 seconds. Energy is 1.12 x 10e12 J for large and 8.96 x 10e9 J for small asteroids – totalling 1.3 x 10e11 to 1.4e12 J. That is 7.8 x 10e11 to 1.68 x 10e13 J per minute, or 0.031 to 0.335 kilotons per minute. Even if they stayed in field for entire day, that is only 44.64 to 482.4 megatons total capacity for ISD's shields. Well within ISD's capacity, as seen in link below:

http://picard578.hostoi.com/startrek-vs ... ields.html

Plus, how do you know how far bounty hunters were? There were not many of them, and Vader might have as well already planned that before the attack, given his Force powers („seeing“ history) and we simply see them first time it seems that Falcon will disappear.

The problem with your asteroid calculations are that they are assuming that only the relatively slow moving and small asteroids that we see hit the star destroyer are what they are hit by. However, is it not likely that at least one other asteroid with the same KE as the one that destroyed the bridge tower hit the star destroyers? What about those patently giant asteroids the Falcon flew by?

All it takes is for one of the bounty hunters to be decently far away, have to finish some business first, or live in a place that lacks a decent hyperlane to the rendezvous fleet, and the fleet has to wait for him. They’re only as fast as the slowest person.

Borg send exactly as many ships as they deem enough for the job. In both cases, that „single cube“ would have fulfilled its goal, if it were not for „special circumstances“ – capture of Locotus in first instance, and fact that Picard knew cube's weakness in second instance. Does the fact that they don't prepare for something they can't foresee make them incopentent? No.

If the borg really do have hundreds of thousands or even millions of cubes as they claim, there would be no reason for them not to send two cubes, one being for backup. A competent borg would have sent more than is required to finish the job if it does not significantly strain them.

First, Expanded Universe is not canon. Now, that was thread about EU, so I (again) apologize. But that does not mean I will allow it here. I will answer it now, still.

Second, you gave no proof that majority of sources support Saxton's figures.

These are quites I have:

BDZ1 wrote:
Base Delta Zero is the Imperial code order to destroy all population centres and resources, including industry, natural resources and cities.

What part of natural resources being deep inside a planet’s mantle don’t you understand? Or population centers being spread out across the planet, many of whom may be underground?

Destroying „all population centres and resources“ means denying them to opponent. Saying that melting crust is required to do it is logical fallacy – destroying sources of certain resources (forests, mine shafts, fisheries, fishing boats, farms, corp fields, etc) is enough to deny them to the enemy.

No, destroying all resources means to destroy all resources, not to deny them to the enemy. Sufficient guerilla hit and run attacks could deny the enemy their resources; are you to claim that base delta zero is a guerilla raid?

So, there are „bombard squadrons“ and „light squadron“. It is clear that lone ISD cannot perform Base Delta Zero – entire squadron of ships is needed.

Except that the Technical Journal various other sources outright state that a single ISD can do it. The quote does not specify what class of ships those 100 are; likely, 100 ships of various sizes are needed to blockade the planet, jam communications and prevent the inhabitants from surviving or managing to destroy the ISD.

BDZ3 wrote:
"... to rendezvous at Dankayo and reduce the tiny base to molten slag. Even before the last of its atmosphere drifted away, before the dense clouds of atomized topsoil could begin to settle, Imperial transports Elusive and Timely, as well as a complement of TIE fighters, moved in to perform "mop-up" operations and a thorough search of Dankayo's now evenly-cratered surface."
-- Scavenger Hunt, p.3


Small base at Dankayo was melted by 3 ISD's and base's atmosphere drifted away. Which means that 3 ISD's were shelling base, not entire planet/moon.

How can only the base’s atmosphere drift away? Don’t be silly; the Wookieepedia page on Dankayo, which has cited sources, specifies that Dankayo is a colonized planet. The base is on Dankayo; Dankayo is not the base.

BDZ4 wrote:
"The Imperial Star Destroyer has enough firepower to reduce a civilized world to slag."
-- Imperial Sourcebook


If one ISD can reduce any random world to slag, adding „civilized“ would be unnecessary. Therefore, BDZ is equivalent of GO24 – destroying cities, villages, factories, mines, etc.

Nonsense; the civilized adjective could easily have been used to specify that an ISD can destroy fortified settlements and bunkers. Said cities, villages, factories, mines and such are going to be spread out across the planet; some will even be underground.

BDZ5 wrote:
"Sir, what about bombardment? Is there a stage for that?"
"Blasting a planet from orbit is easy -- you don't need me to tell you how to do that. Limited orbital strikes would occur during the invasion stage. Just hope you are never given a Base Delta Zero order, lieutenant. Ah, yes, another question?"
"Sir, what's the Base Delta Zero order?"
"Base Delta Zero is the Imperial code order to destroy all population centres and resources, including industry, natural resources and cities. All other Imperial codes are subject to change, as you well know, but this code is always the same to prevent any confusion when the order is given. Base Delta Zero is rarely issued. ...."
-- "A World to Conquer"


So, Base Delta Zero destroys population centres, industry and resources. Again, melting surface is unnecessary – direct hit from megaton-class weapon will destroy any factory, shipyard, mineshaft, or any other single structure we know of, and several hits are enough to depopulate large cities. Again, melting surface is unnecessary.

Again, resources can include mineral deposits many kilometers beneath the planet.

So, if you can provide several dozen quotes supporing your theory, go ahead. Even one will do fine, just to verify you are not lying, or intentionally misinterpreting evidence. But if you can't, stop lying.

I have already provided six, including:

"Have you ever seen what a Star Destroyer can do to the surface of an unshielded planet? Stones run like water and sand turns to glass."

He assumes what is most often used in context. „Vaporizing a town“ in common speech means producing effects that are similar to every building in town being vaporized. So, turned in dust (or ash) and carried away seems rather fine, thank you.

In that case, how does darkstar calculate the energy needed to vaporize durasteel structures? Why does he assume that the town is only made out of wood?

I did not blame you for my mistakes, I blame you for merely what you are constantly doing. Refer to above for details (base Delta Zero etc.).

And yet again, you ignore half of my post, failing to provide proof that the Falcon’s likely kiloton level shields are going to resist the giant asteroid large enough to have its own gravity being vaporized.

Prove that base is on planet, and not small moon. Beacouse if it is small moon, quote makes sense – it specifically refers to atmosphere inside the base. So, dome is breached – atmosphere in base drifts away.

Oh, please. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dankayo

Providing that there is atmosphere outside base in first place.

Dankayo is a colonized world. Of course it will have an atmosphere.

No, it does not. First, EU is not canon, and so is superceded by canon. Second, base seems to be on airless moon.

See above; Dankayo is an inhabited planet.

Nor it does anywhere say it is about to turn them into slag.

Would you like to lie some more?

"The Imperial Star Destroyer has enough firepower to reduce a civilized world to slag."

They were in the base.

And with your logical deduction you did not consider the possibility that a military base would be fortified?

And from where metal comes? From mines.

Many of which are underground. What part of this don’t you understand?

No, you have your imaginary (and in the end, irrelevant) definition if BDZ. I provided quotes. In this post.

And I did not? Please:

"Have you ever seen what a Star Destroyer can do to the surface of an unshielded planet? Stones run like water and sand turns to glass."

Beacouse it is obvious. And searching for all of your lies, analyzing them and bringing to you would take months.

As I expected, you back up your stupid accusation with the classic “it’s obvious!” copout, as if saying that it’s obvious has any credibility or logic backing it up. I could say that to support, or try and support, literally anything, and as with you, would not have to back up why it’s obvious.

Stupid guy: The world is flat!
Smart guy: Why?
Stupid guy: It’s obvious!

Half dozen misinterpreted quotes from half dozen non-canon sources... quotes I don't remember seeing.

Tell me how this quote is misinterpreted:

"Have you ever seen what a Star Destroyer can do to the surface of an unshielded planet? Stones run like water and sand turns to glass."

Except neutronium is supposed to be both kinetically and thermally super-resistant.

Star Wars hulls are neutronium alloys, not pure neutronium.

As far as I remember (I read it over 5 years ago), it was specifically stated to be such.

Sorry, but as far as you remember is not enough.

Except that it is 3 x 3 x 3 km cube, and there are few dozen sources where ships display range in tens to hundreds of thousands kilometers against much smaller targets.

And all of them are only told, not shown, and are in small scale engagements.

Some of them are:
TNG
„The Wounded“
„A Matter of Honor“
„Skin of Evil“

DS9
„The Search“

TOS
„Changeling“
„Ultimate Computer“

And it is incomplete list.

And all of these are dialogue only, and small scale skirmishes. Large scale battles are, for some reason, close ranged affairs.

As it is Star Trek shield, it means that it does have bleedthrought damage.


Even after passing shield, energy has to pass few thousands kilometers to Earth (minimum for sufficient protection). Plus shields do have subspace field, and possibly some other measures to reduce damage from bleedthrought.

The bleed through of a blast being prematurely detonated from orbit, as the shield probably would be, would not conveniently only affect San Fransisco.

It implies that turbolaser directly converts mass to energy throught some technobabble.

No it does not. Nowhere does it mention that such is the case, and if the quote was supposed to imply such a thing, the author would have made it more obvious than an extremely vague, undefined quote.

Yes.

Then I’m glad, Picard, that you are not the commander of our naval forces, or we would be screwed in any naval confrontation.

Picard: men, close your aircraft carrier within 100 meters of that destroyer with big guns! We need to limit its field of fire!

Torpedoes can manouver. Not fast, but they can. It also limits Borg's ability to analyze weapons coming right at it and adapt before weapons fire even reaches it.

That’s in contradiction with your claim that the photon torpedos were so slow because they did not need to travel fast; why would the Federation fleet move in close to prevent the borg from having as much time to analyze their weapons, only to dial down their weapon speeds to make it so that the borg still have the same amount of time to analyze it?

http://picard578.hostoi.com/startrek-vs ... asers.html

http://picard578.hostoi.com/startrek-vs ... ctive.html

Where do I state that turbolasers have range of few kilometers? Few hundred kilometers is only thing I can remember.

Oh, please. An ion cannon hits a star destroyer from several thousand kilometers away.

„Wounded“

Do you expect me to search through the entire episode to find your example?

No, to the point they can't target it's subsystems.

A defining attribute of borg ships are that they have no discernible subsystems or weaknesses!

Not to hit subsystems. And you can't ignore things that are equally canon as other things you claim are right just beacouse you don't like them.

And please define these imaginary subsystems that you have given the borg.

Really? Elaborate, please. Give pros and cons of engaging Borg at long range.

Let me give you same for engaging them at short range

PROS
- allows for better precision against subsystems
- decreases reaction time
- does not allow Borg to scan frequency of torpedoes mid-flight and adapt
allows better concentration of forces – there is no evidence that Borg would not use something like Picard manouver to pick off ships one by one

CONS
- None – Borg can engage them at both long and short range

So are you advocating that the United States navy change its doctrine to engage enemy fleets at point blank range? After all, it “limits its field of fire”, and there are no cons! But let’s examine your pros:

- allows for better precision against subsystems
Said subsystems are not mentioned on a borg cube; its hull had not even been penetrated by the time the Enterprise arrived.
- decreases reaction time
Except that by your own admission, the Federation dialed down its torpedo speeds so much that it would be proportional to a full speed photon torpedo from 100,000 or so kilometers away, so no benefit was derived here.
- does not allow Borg to scan frequency of torpedoes mid-flight and adapt
See above.
-allows better concentration of forces – there is no evidence that Borg would not use something like Picard manouver to pick off ships one by one
Bullshit. With several hundred thousand kilometer ranges, the Federation fleet could scatter to separate corners of space, “up”, “down” and overall around the cube, and fire at it from all directions instead of pointlessly zipping across the cube at slow speeds, as if they hope to dodge at such ranges; which they actually do, because the cube has crap accuracy.

These subsystems are inside the hull. You obviously play space RTS games too much. How old are you?

Really? Show me proof that the Federation knew of any critical spots of the cube before Picard came.

More BS.

First, we never hear of Falcon having jamming equipmentr in canon.
Second, you really think we now could hit cube with missiles from across star system?

In the film-novels jamming devices are mentioned, particularly in the Battle of Yavin, and the films supports this; when Vader is locking onto Luke’s X wing, it shows the X wing on his targeting system wildly fluctuating, even though Luke was flying in a straight path.

Let me set you straight:
1) Diameter of Neptune's orbit is 60 AU or 8 975 880 000 kilometers
2) Speed of light (and radio waves) is 300 000 km/s. Meaning that by time radio waves get back, information is over 8 hours old

I was specifying the condition that the cube was flying in a straight path, or still.

3) even without that, fastest anti-ship missile I know is China's DF-21D kinetic penetrator missile, travelling at 12 250 km/h, with range of 1500 km. Allowing for 10 times the speed (since it is in space, with no air friction), it would still need 8 years to complete the trip
) even without all that, it is fair bet that cube had jamming systems on-board, or could jam sensors, since we know that powerful subspace field can jam sensors of GCS (ref: „The Wounded“)

I also specified technology not that far above our own, which may include fusion engines, and decently more advanced targeting systems. With some not so complex math, one can hit a predictable target from extreme distances with missiles.

Reaaaly lucky. They had 100% accuracy. Do you know what odds are of that?. 1:100 seems nice.

Of course, how do you know this? Was it specifically mentioned?

Only ship I remember Dominion fleet was missing was Defiant. Which was specifically designed to fight Borg.

Then go watch it again, because if neither fleet missed, both fleets would have been completely wiped out. Charging at each other; literally going through each other, is reminiscent of age of sail tactics, and it’s ridiculous that space age militaries used this.

Then there’s the action of Sisko deploying fighters to harass the dominion fleet, and the dominion ships were missing the fighters moving right on top of them.[/b] And these fighters were not as fast as Star Wars starfighters. So much for ST accuracy, eh?

Episode.

Voyager: Deadlock.

Why sacrifice large amount of yield for initial launch? Course corrections are completely other thing, since you don't need that much energy as to launch it.

Because having a gigaton level torpedo means little if you cannot hit your target?

As i said, not required at that moment. You are clinging to your interpretation of that battle like it invalidates everything else, despite movies being lower canon than TV series.

The borg cube battle was in Best of Both Worlds, and your statement of it not being required is in direct contradiction of your rationalization of the close range that the Federation was trying to minimize chances of the borg cube analyzing the torpedos.

Maybe bacouse they would be intercepted and shot down if they tried to? Add risk of relativistic collision to that, and fact that Jem'Hadar are known not to value their lives much...

What a spectacular excuse. So this is how you feel that Sisko, a talented tactician, thought:

Sisko: If we try and fly through the fleet at 0.8 C, they will surely be able to shoot us down and destroy us! What shall we do…I know! Since flying at relativistic speeds is not going to be enough to dodge and blur past the dominion fleet, we will…fly at a few hundred meters per second! Yep, the dominion fleet won’t know what hit them; they’d be readying their sensors and targeting systems to hit a target of which they have 0.00013 seconds to hit, so they will be frozen in shock for the 30 seconds they have to hit us at a few kilometers per second!

I have replied to them now. And it is not stupid excuse, it is simple reason. And show these quotes?

Several. See above, and this one:


As instructed, I have remained behind until the last of our transports departed safely into hyperspace. Imperial Star Destroyers have so thoroughly blasted Dankayo that I fear for my safety, even in this deep-planet survival shelter.

Even in a deep planetary shelter, one’s safety is at risk.

No, it never existed. And canon overrules non-canon in any case.

Stop it with this stupid copout; you are in this thread, and thus you are debating BDZ, whether you find it canon or not. You are not going to dismiss all of its evidence as non existent.

And you and rest of warsies choose to try and put it above G-canon. And no, Lucas declared EU not to be canon.

Stupid strawman. Nowhere do I put base delta zero above G canon.

Galaxy class starship is NOT mostly hollow.

http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/bl ... heet-6.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2666/396 ... 9038ce.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2596/396 ... 87084f.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2651/396 ... 93a991.jpg

…all of those links show mostly non occupied space.

Nitpick being? Your quote was wrong. Simple as that.

What quote? I was referencing the films, not a novel. You accused me of dishonesty, yet in reality you clearly had your films messed up.

So please, go and answer the relevant topic at hand. How do you refute the Death Star’s circumnavigation of Yavin? What about both the speed and power output implications of this G canon event?

Read fucking page.

Would you like to make some more obvious evasion attempts?

Maybe beacouse intact ships with full power reserves will not choose to ram opponent? Main damage is done by M/AM explosion, since there probably is some mass lightening involved.

So how do these ships expect to hit a ship, probably in better condition than a ship desperate enough to ram, that can accelerate to 80% C in a decent amount of time? Could the ship that’s being targeted for a ram simply say screw you and accelerate to several hundred thousand kilometers in the opposite direction?

Flying at warp? It is more like teraton to petaton range.



Coupled with previous...


As above. Impacts of debris at warp are likely to be in teraton to petaton range.

Hey look, you completely forgot context! We were talking about the sublight speed of Star Trek ships, not warp (how you calculated the impact damage of a ship moving at FTL is beyond me). At sublight speeds, any debris that the Enterprise encounters would be trivial next to its supposedly gigaton level shielding, yet it cannot safely accelerate beyond 0.8 C.

The Falcon was able to accelerate to relativistic speeds to the point of traveling to a separate star system using sublight engines within a year or so.

As fast as they can, yeah. Maybe you want to say they should have gone to full impulse and slam right into Dominion fleet? Or zip past them into Gamma Quadrant?

Slaming into the fleet- space is big, Picard, and they could easily have gone around the fleet, or have calculated the fleets’ movements to go through it without collision, which their supposedly gigaton level shields cannot take.

Zipping past them into Gamma Quadrant – do you have any idea how big space is? Even at warp speed this would take too long to accidentally happen.

[Picard]

The problem with your asteroid calculations are that they are assuming that only the relatively slow moving and small asteroids that we see hit the star destroyer are what they are hit by.

We cannot assume that they were hit with something we couldn't see. What are you doing now is pure logical fallacy. „They might have been hit with floating elephants, therefore they were hit with floating elephants, althought we never saw any elephants floating in river at all“. I know you are obsessed with making Star Wars ships more powerful than they are in canon, but fallacies will achieve nothing.

However, is it not likely that at least one other asteroid with the same KE as the one that destroyed the bridge tower hit the star destroyers?

Possible, but unlikely – it would have most probably been destroyed before reaching it. But I took larger-than-average asteroid size as being average for exactly that reason.

What about those patently giant asteroids the Falcon flew by?

Falcon is only 15-30 meters in length. Even slightly larger-than-average asteroid would seem giant.

All it takes is for one of the bounty hunters to be decently far away, have to finish some business first, or live in a place that lacks a decent hyperlane to the rendezvous fleet, and the fleet has to wait for him. They’re only as fast as the slowest person.

We know nothing about bounty hunters. Vader might have as well called them to ship before they even attacked base (what with all his foresight) or they might have been in vicinity. After all, both Solo and Luke had bounty on them.

If the borg really do have hundreds of thousands or even millions of cubes as they claim, there would be no reason for them not to send two cubes, one being for backup. A competent borg would have sent more than is required to finish the job if it does not significantly strain them.

Would you send two divisions if only one will do the job? Plus, Borg don't have millions of cubes – I don't think there are even hundreds of thousands of cubes. But there are smaller vessels – spheres, probes, etc. – which might bring number to hunded thousand or so.

What part of natural resources being deep inside a planet’s mantle don’t you understand?

Part one is that these resources are most probably unused and unusable. And if you think they can use resources from mantle, then melting crust would do nothing – it would only create huge deposits of unclaimed resources (like glass). Therefore, your definition is wrong. Not the least that it is in contradiction with canon.

Or population centers being spread out across the planet, many of whom may be underground?

May be... being spread... you are bullshitting. Population has tendency to concentrate – in villages, towns, cities – and larger population is, you get more concentration points, but also larger concentration points. As for undergrounf settlements, we never see them in canon, and while I am anything but EU expert, I would guess that there are none in EU either.

No, destroying all resources means to destroy all resources, not to deny them to the enemy.

Even that wanktastic Base Delta Zero won't destroy natural resources. And military is used to doing something in most effective way – that is, achieving goal with least possible expenditure. And then you can't circumnavigate canon either.

Sufficient guerilla hit and run attacks could deny the enemy their resources;

They can't. All guerilla raids can do is to divert forces from other critical tasks to protecting resources. Plus we know that infantry can carry out local BDZ – if BDZ is happening as according to your definition, it would be flat-out suicide.

Except that the Technical Journal various other sources outright state that a single ISD can do it.

They are in contradiction with rest of EU as well as canon, meaning they can be ignored in favor of sources that don't contradict canon. Plus, even if one ISD can do it, you won't get teraton-range guns.

The quote does not specify what class of ships those 100 are; likely, 100 ships of various sizes are needed to blockade the planet, jam communications and prevent the inhabitants from surviving or managing to destroy the ISD.

Possible; but seeing how three ISD's failed to completely destroy base at Dankayo...

How can only the base’s atmosphere drift away? Don’t be silly; the Wookieepedia page on Dankayo, which has cited sources, specifies that Dankayo is a colonized planet. The base is on Dankayo; Dankayo is not the base.

Only base was targeted.

Nonsense; the civilized adjective could easily have been used to specify that an ISD can destroy fortified settlements and bunkers. Said cities, villages, factories, mines and such are going to be spread out across the planet; some will even be underground.

Plain and simple: no. „Civilized“ means that it has trade, production, cities, roads, farms, mines... destroying these means world will no longer be „civilized“ for quite some time. Otherwise, why would specify it is „civilized“ world? Why not simply say that BDZ can reduce surface of any random, spherical piece of rock, metal and silicates to slag?

Again, resources can include mineral deposits many kilometers beneath the planet.

Mineral deposits that are not used and are therefore irrelevant.

"Have you ever seen what a Star Destroyer can do to the surface of an unshielded planet? Stones run like water and sand turns to glass."

Which is in contradiction to canon AND Expanded Universe. Let me remind you:

" The skies of Coruscant blaze with war.
The artificial daylight spread by the capital's orbital mirrors is sliced by intersecting flames of ion drives and punctuated by starburst explosions; contrails of debris raining into the atmosphere become tangled ribbons of cloud. The nightside sky is an infinite lattice of shining hairlines that interlock planetoids and track erratic spirals of glowing gnats. Beings watching from rooftops of Coruscant's endless cityscape can find it beautiful.
From the inside, it's different. The gnats are drive-glows of starfighters. The shining hairlines are light-scatter from turbolaser bolts powerful enough to vaporize a small town. The planetoids are capital ships."

So, no. Stones cannot „run like water“ and sand cannot „turn to glass“.

In that case, how does darkstar calculate the energy needed to vaporize durasteel structures?

First, it is US small town writer is referring to. And even Mos Eisley does not use dursteel – which is about equal in mechanical performance and heat resistence to ordinary steel – but concrete in buildings.

Why does he assume that the town is only made out of wood?

He does not.

And yet again, you ignore half of my post, failing to provide proof that the Falcon’s likely kiloton level shields are going to resist the giant asteroid large enough to have its own gravity being vaporized.

1) If Falcon has kiloton-level shields, then why they were worried about asteroid field?
2) If ISD's shields and hull are so wanktastically strong, then why they were they too worried about entering asteroid field? Not to mention local glass jaw TIE's, which explode in collisions with small pieces of rock – if they were made out of wanktastic durastell, there would be no problem.
3) I have calculated amount of energy absorbed – less than gigaton – by ISD

Oh, please. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dankayo

So we have contradiction with canon.

Would you like to lie some more?

"The Imperial Star Destroyer has enough firepower to reduce a civilized world to slag."

Contradicted by actual canon. And you are „master of lies“ here – you warp thruth as it fits you, in order to push your own wanktastic definitions of non-canon events. Try again.

And with your logical deduction you did not consider the possibility that a military base would be fortified?

Fortified, yes. But there is nothing that requires teraton-range guns... aside from wanktastic atmosphere-removal effect, which could be result of technobabble similar to Death Star's Death Ray.

Many of which are underground. What part of this don’t you understand?

And do not require anywhere near teraton to collapse entrance and melt first few dozen meters.

"Have you ever seen what a Star Destroyer can do to the surface of an unshielded planet? Stones run like water and sand turns to glass."

It is contradicted by canon. Therefore, irrelevant. First you must prove that it is not contradicted by canon, then we can talk about power levels involved.

As I expected, you back up your stupid accusation with the classic “it’s obvious!” copout, as if saying that it’s obvious has any credibility or logic backing it up. I could say that to support, or try and support, literally anything, and as with you, would not have to back up why it’s obvious.

Which is just your modus operandi. You bring forth „proof“ from EU, while handily „forgetting“ fact that actual canon contradicts it.

Tell me how this quote is misinterpreted:

"Have you ever seen what a Star Destroyer can do to the surface of an unshielded planet? Stones run like water and sand turns to glass."

It is one wanktastic quote contradicted by rest of EU and by canon.

Star Wars hulls are neutronium alloys, not pure neutronium.

They are neither. Else that ISD would not have gotten destroyed by asteroid destroying its bridge.

And all of them are only told, not shown, and are in small scale engagements.

Beacouse of jamming. We know that they can engage at long range. We know that subspace fields can jam sensors. We know that ships generate subspace fields when shields are active ( http://picard578.hostoi.com/startrek-vs ... ields.html ). We know that ships are densely packed. Result? Huge, powerful subspace field preventing lock-on at long range.

Plus, told is more reliable than shown, beacouse it follows writer's intention more closely.

And all of these are dialogue only, and small scale skirmishes.

That invalidates them how? To remind you, you were using First Contact battle – small scale skirmish, beacouse only few dozen Starfleet ships were present at time – to „prove“ Starfleet can't engage anyone at long range.

Large scale battles are, for some reason, close ranged affairs.

For same reason I have already explained.

The bleed through of a blast being prematurely detonated from orbit, as the shield probably would be, would not conveniently only affect San Fransisco.

Unless it is bleedthrought of an energy weapon.

No it does not. Nowhere does it mention that such is the case, and if the quote was supposed to imply such a thing, the author would have made it more obvious than an extremely vague, undefined quote.

Quote is anything BUT extremely vague. You don't like it, so you scream that it is „extremely vague“. It is not – it exactly shows us how superlaser operates.

Then I’m glad, Picard, that you are not the commander of our naval forces, or we would be screwed in any naval confrontation.

Picard: men, close your aircraft carrier within 100 meters of that destroyer with big guns! We need to limit its field of fire!

Except that it happened in some WW2 battles – Japanese battleship was destroyed by cruisers which were relatively close.

That’s in contradiction with your claim that the photon torpedos were so slow because they did not need to travel fast;

It's not; that way, torpedoes preserve yields, and phasers mostly always move at same speed.

why would the Federation fleet move in close to prevent the borg from having as much time to analyze their weapons, only to dial down their weapon speeds to make it so that the borg still have the same amount of time to analyze it?

It was just a theory. But it allows for larger yields, and more power to shields and weapons.

Oh, please. An ion cannon hits a star destroyer from several thousand kilometers away.

As I have stated at these very pages. You do not even take a glance at evidence being presented to you; instead, you only assume what I am saying and draw conclusions from that.

Do you expect me to search through the entire episode to find your example?

Yes. Or for God's sake, click at links I give you once, and read them.

http://picard578.hostoi.com/startrek-vs ... edoes.html

http://picard578.hostoi.com/startrek-vs ... asers.html

A defining attribute of borg ships are that they have no discernible subsystems or weaknesses!

Which was proven false more than once. Extremely redundant decentralized systems, yes. No discernible subsystems or weaknesses, no – that was proven more than once, including very episode you quote.

And please define these imaginary subsystems that you have given the borg.

Standard – weapons, computer cores, sensors... Or you seriously think Borg use some kind of magic?

Said subsystems are not mentioned on a borg cube; its hull had not even been penetrated by the time the Enterprise arrived.

Fail.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJZbCNex ... re=related - 1:30

Data: „The coordinates you have indicated do not appear to be a vital system.“ (NOT: Borg cube does not have any subsystems).
Picard: „Trust me, Data.“
- Fleet fires at said coordinates. –
- borg cube explodes –

So, how fleet firing at some specific coordinates succeded in destroying a cube when it survived protracted battle beforehand?

Except that by your own admission, the Federation dialed down its torpedo speeds so much that it would be proportional to a full speed photon torpedo from 100,000 or so kilometers away, so no benefit was derived here.

Phasers, anyone?

Bullshit. With several hundred thousand kilometer ranges, the Federation fleet could scatter to separate corners of space, “up”, “down” and overall around the cube, and fire at it from all directions instead of pointlessly zipping across the cube at slow speeds, as if they hope to dodge at such ranges; which they actually do, because the cube has crap accuracy.

And cube could concentrate at just one ship at the time – nearest one. Besides, my subsystems point still stands – your lies notwithstanding.

Really? Show me proof that the Federation knew of any critical spots of the cube before Picard came.

Obviously not any „critical“ spots, but weapons, power relays and sensors are obvious targets. Only problem is that cube can regenerate, but they still succeded in damaging it to the pint that its outer power grid heavily fluctuates – obviously showing extensive damage.

In the film-novels jamming devices are mentioned, particularly in the Battle of Yavin, and the films supports this

In first novel, against fighters. But I don't remember any other.

when Vader is locking onto Luke’s X wing, it shows the X wing on his targeting system wildly fluctuating, even though Luke was flying in a straight path

Possible.

I was specifying the condition that the cube was flying in a straight path, or still.

It was. So what?

I also specified technology not that far above our own, which may include fusion engines, and decently more advanced targeting systems. With some not so complex math, one can hit a predictable target from extreme distances with missiles.

Extreme distances being?

Of course, how do you know this? Was it specifically mentioned?

No, we simply don't see them missing.

Then go watch it again, because if neither fleet missed, both fleets would have been completely wiped out.

Shields, anyone?

Charging at each other; literally going through each other, is reminiscent of age of sail tactics, and it’s ridiculous that space age militaries used this.

And Star Wars is better how? Federation fleet had to push throught Dominion fleet, and had no time to play games.

Then there’s the action of Sisko deploying fighters to harass the dominion fleet, and the dominion ships were missing the fighters moving right on top of them. And these fighters were not as fast as Star Wars starfighters. So much for ST accuracy, eh?

Again, jamming, which you did not disprove. And only Cardassian ships are shown firing. Plus, that does not disprove numerous examples of 10 000+ km ranges.

Voyager: Deadlock.

Weapons arrays were destroyed.

Because having a gigaton level torpedo means little if you cannot hit your target?

Beacouse they can use ship's warp core power to launch torpedo? And beacouse torpedoes can change course?

The borg cube battle was in Best of Both Worlds, and your statement of it not being required is in direct contradiction of your rationalization of the close range that the Federation was trying to minimize chances of the borg cube analyzing the torpedos.

Which is disproved now.

What a spectacular excuse. So this is how you feel that Sisko, a talented tactician, thought:

And you would do what?

SWST: „Let us fly throught enemy fleet at 0.8 c, and loose entire fleet due to collisons. Or let us try to go around them, allowing them to intercept us and attack first, while loosing precious time?

everal. See above, and this one:


As instructed, I have remained behind until the last of our transports departed safely into hyperspace. Imperial Star Destroyers have so thoroughly blasted Dankayo that I fear for my safety, even in this deep-planet survival shelter.

Even in a deep planetary shelter, one’s safety is at risk.

He feared for his safety; it is not stated wether he was actually jeopardized or not. Plus, it still doesn't remove point that you can't use EU to disprove canon.

Stop it with this stupid copout; you are in this thread, and thus you are debating BDZ, whether you find it canon or not. You are not going to dismiss all of its evidence as non existent.

IF YOU HAVE NOT FORGOTTEN, THIS IS NOT BASE DELTA ZERO THREAD. WE LEFT IT AGES AGO WITH OUR DISCUSSION.[/u]

Stupid strawman. Nowhere do I put base delta zero above G canon.

You do. Beacouse I have provided you with canon example that disproves non-canon Base Delta Zero („vaporize a small town“), yet you still cling to EU sources.

…all of those links show mostly non occupied space.

Non-occupied? So, you are saying that starship should be filled with garbage to roof in order to „occupy“ it?

How do you refute the Death Star’s circumnavigation of Yavin? What about both the speed and power output implications of this G canon event?

Death Star exited hyperspace and used Yavin's gravity to accelerate itself towards target. We know it can move in realspace, but it obviously isn't fast, and we don't know how.

Would you like to make some more obvious evasion attempts?

You are evading. You post bullshit, then you ask for proof, yet you do not read proof I give. FO.

So how do these ships expect to hit a ship, probably in better condition than a ship desperate enough to ram, that can accelerate to 80% C in a decent amount of time? Could the ship that’s being targeted for a ram simply say screw you and accelerate to several hundred thousand kilometers in the opposite direction?

And how long it takes to start accelerating? Plus only such example I know about is Nemesis fight – you really think that accelerating at few thousand G is clever when you are surronded by mass of particles?

(how you calculated the impact damage of a ship moving at FTL is beyond me)

I calculated impact damage that stone in realspace will do to such ship.

At sublight speeds, any debris that the Enterprise encounters would be trivial next to its supposedly gigaton level shielding, yet it cannot safely accelerate beyond 0.8 C.

Source?

The Falcon was able to accelerate to relativistic speeds to the point of traveling to a separate star system using sublight engines within a year or so.

Source?

space is big

Wormhole is not.

they could easily have gone around the fleet

And be intercepted.

or have calculated the fleets’ movements to go through it without collision, which their supposedly gigaton level shields cannot take.

Collision, and subsequent multi-gigaton explosion of ship they collided with... which is also shielded, meaning that shields of both ships would probably fail before hulls came into contact.

Zipping past them into Gamma Quadrant – do you have any idea how big space is? Even at warp speed this would take too long to accidentally happen.

I was talking about wormhole encounter.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

We cannot assume that they were hit with something we couldn't see. What are you doing now is pure logical fallacy. „They might have been hit with floating elephants, therefore they were hit with floating elephants, althought we never saw any elephants floating in river at all“. I know you are obsessed with making Star Wars ships more powerful than they are in canon, but fallacies will achieve nothing.

The novel RODV mentions multi megaton asteroids, and the movie only shows 0.001% of these asteroids impacting the hull, so there is no contradiction.

Possible, but unlikely – it would have most probably been destroyed before reaching it. But I took larger-than-average asteroid size as being average for exactly that reason.

Would you like me to calculate the energy needed to destroy said asteroid?

Falcon is only 15-30 meters in length. Even slightly larger-than-average asteroid would seem giant.

And they are. 15-30 meters is pretty darn large for a supersonic object.

We know nothing about bounty hunters. Vader might have as well called them to ship before they even attacked base (what with all his foresight) or they might have been in vicinity. After all, both Solo and Luke had bounty on them.

There is no evidence to support this; Vader only called the bounty hunters after they entered the asteroid field, because there would be little chance of them getting the Falcon in such a field.

Would you send two divisions if only one will do the job? Plus, Borg don't have millions of cubes – I don't think there are even hundreds of thousands of cubes. But there are smaller vessels – spheres, probes, etc. – which might bring number to hunded thousand or so.

Because one was projected to probably do the job, but two used competently would definitely do the job, and that makes the difference.

Part one is that these resources are most probably unused and unusable. And if you think they can use resources from mantle, then melting crust would do nothing – it would only create huge deposits of unclaimed resources (like glass). Therefore, your definition is wrong. Not the least that it is in contradiction with canon.

And here is another example of your self contradictions. If these resources were unusable, why do you say that melting the crust would "only create huge deposits of unclaimed resources (like glass)?" Other than glass, there is little else that melting the ground would get from supposedly unusable resources, resources some of which we are capable of mining today.

May be... being spread... you are bullshitting. Population has tendency to concentrate – in villages, towns, cities – and larger population is, you get more concentration points, but also larger concentration points. As for undergrounf settlements, we never see them in canon, and while I am anything but EU expert, I would guess that there are none in EU either.

There is a large underground in Coruscant, and said concentration points are going to be spread, in case if you have not read a world map in your life.

Even that wanktastic Base Delta Zero won't destroy natural resources.

Picard, are you this big of a hypocritical prancing ignoramus? Your own source stated that BDZ destroys natural resources.

And military is used to doing something in most effective way – that is, achieving goal with least possible expenditure. And then you can't circumnavigate canon either.

And as my quotes show, there may be deep planetary shelters that your version of BDZ would not reach.

They can't. All guerilla raids can do is to divert forces from other critical tasks to protecting resources. Plus we know that infantry can carry out local BDZ – if BDZ is happening as according to your definition, it would be flat-out suicide.

Actually, a well organized guerrilla operation can destroy supply lines, ambush transports, and overall deny resources to the enemy. For some reason, you think that this; denying resources to the enemy, matches "turning the civilized world to slag", and "destroying all natural resources".

They are in contradiction with rest of EU as well as canon, meaning they can be ignored in favor of sources that don't contradict canon. Plus, even if one ISD can do it, you won't get teraton-range guns.

This is blatant evasion. Every source I bring up that rightfully supports my position, no misrepresentation needed, is dismissed by you as "in contradiction with the rest of EU as well as canon", despite you failing to prove this.

But for some reason, your sources do not, even though they are in contradiction with MY sources, which is essentially every quote of a base delta zero ever. You are essentially dismissing all of my well thought out quotes because they "contradict canon" in your stupid circular reasoning fest while hypocritically cherry picking all of the conveniently LOW END ones because they "do not contradict canon".

YOU CANNOT COUNTER ANY OF MY QUOTES. THEY ARE ALL CORRECT. THEY OUTNUMBER YOUR QUOTES, AND NO MOVIE SOURCE EVER MENTIONS BASE DELTA ZERO.

Possible; but seeing how three ISD's failed to completely destroy base at Dankayo...

Your logical reasoning skills are not very good. The ISD's failed to completely destroy the base, but the base is not a quantifiable target! The atmosphere of Dankayo is, and it was destroyed!

So we know that the SAME BOMBARDMENT:

Failed to destroy a base
Succeeded in destroying the atmosphere

The energy needed to blow off the atmosphere of an Earth like planet is 3.2*10^26 joules.

You
Only base was targeted.

Yet the entire planet's atmosphere was blown off (the base's atmosphere alone being blown off is a violation of thermodynamics), meaning that a side effect of the energy needed to destroy the base is 3.2*10^26 joules!

Plain and simple: no. „Civilized“ means that it has trade, production, cities, roads, farms, mines... destroying these means world will no longer be „civilized“ for quite some time. Otherwise, why would specify it is „civilized“ world? Why not simply say that BDZ can reduce surface of any random, spherical piece of rock, metal and silicates to slag?

Then explain why it says to turn the civilized world into slag. Do you ever use the term slag in the context of collapsing civilization? Don't grasp at straws; although slag may or may not be literal, the low end figurative definition is to physically destroy and maim, not to collapse indirectly as you are implying.

Mineral deposits that are not used and are therefore irrelevant.

How do you know that they are not used? And you are still ignoring the quote you brought up; it said to destroy all natural resources, it did not distinguish between those that are used and those that aren't.

Which is in contradiction to canon AND Expanded Universe. Let me remind you:

You cannot just apologize for your mistakes, can you? You accused me of MISREPRESENTATION. So show me WHERE I misrepresented the quote. I am not asking for you to accept the quote as fact, I am asking where I twisted this quote, which is what you accused me of.

" The skies of Coruscant blaze with war.
The artificial daylight spread by the capital's orbital mirrors is sliced by intersecting flames of ion drives and punctuated by starburst explosions; contrails of debris raining into the atmosphere become tangled ribbons of cloud. The nightside sky is an infinite lattice of shining hairlines that interlock planetoids and track erratic spirals of glowing gnats. Beings watching from rooftops of Coruscant's endless cityscape can find it beautiful.
From the inside, it's different. The gnats are drive-glows of starfighters. The shining hairlines are light-scatter from turbolaser bolts powerful enough to vaporize a small town. The planetoids are capital ships."

So, no. Stones cannot „run like water“ and sand cannot „turn to glass“.

Vaporizing a town would include material such as stone and metal, and vaporizing said material would make stone rise like water vapor, which is even more impressive than running like water.

First, it is US small town writer is referring to.

Prove it, and explain why the Earth is never mentioned in the novels, EVER.

And even Mos Eisley does not use dursteel – which is about equal in mechanical performance and heat resistence to ordinary steel – but concrete in buildings.

Of course not, Sherlock, it's in a freaking desert. Would you use metal to build homes in a desert? So explain to me why a generic "small town" would be in a desert.

He does not.

Why does he run calculations to vaporize wood, and not metal, stone, or any other common building materials?

1) If Falcon has kiloton-level shields, then why they were worried about asteroid field?

Red herring. You were claiming that IF "wanktastic" shields existed, the Falcon would survive the asteroid being vaporized, so Vader's goal of keeping them alive to capture would still be fulfilled. I am arguing that said "wanktastic" shields would not be enough to protect them from such a release of energy, and therefore Vader would not want to destroy the asteroid because the Falcon might be destroyed.

2) If ISD's shields and hull are so wanktastically strong, then why they were they too worried about entering asteroid field? Not to mention local glass jaw TIE's, which explode in collisions with small pieces of rock – if they were made out of wanktastic durastell, there would be no problem.

Because the admiral was making a split second reaction to entering an asteroid field, and did not sit down and calculate the energy that would impact the shields? All it takes is for one hypersonic, giant asteroid to hit an ISD and it's in big trouble.

As for the tie fighters, they are stated to be extremely fragile, and mass produced.

3) I have calculated amount of energy absorbed – less than gigaton – by ISD

Your calculation, Picard, is a joke. You make stupid assumptions, such as the asteroids we see impacting the hull being the strongest asteroids that impact their hull in a day

So we have contradiction with canon.

Your goalpost move:

You: *brings up Dankayo* Ha! Only a small base was reduced to slag!
Me: ...but the atmosphere of the planet was blown off.
You: (obviously either lying or not doing simple research) Dankayo was just an uninhabited moon!
Me: No...it was a colonized planet.
You: so we have contradiction with canon.

You are the one to claim Dankayo as a low end showing. If it were contradicted by canon, why did YOU bring it forward?

Contradicted by actual canon. And you are „master of lies“ here – you warp thruth as it fits you, in order to push your own wanktastic definitions of non-canon events. Try again.

You used that quote AS EVIDENCE, you two faced liar. Stop backtracking. HOW am I possibly "warping the truth" of this:

"civilized world to slag"

As destroying the civilized world? How is that a twist of the facts? The quote blatantly says it! You can disagree with me with the validity of the quote itself, but do not accuse me of warping the quote when there is clearly no warping involved, just obvious interpretation of obvious statements.

Fortified, yes. But there is nothing that requires teraton-range guns... aside from wanktastic atmosphere-removal effect, which could be result of technobabble similar to Death Star's Death Ray.

Ah, grasping at straws, aren't we? Why don't you provide evidence that the ISD used a "wanktastic" atmosphere-removal effect (how it is wanktastic when it is supported by the very quote that you brought up) instead of just firing at it with turbolasers?

And do not require anywhere near teraton to collapse entrance and melt first few dozen meters.

Unless if the ISD has full data of the precise location of every last mine and mineral deposit, they'd have to melt several dozen meters of the entire planet; and oil rigs can exist underwater.

It is contradicted by canon. Therefore, irrelevant. First you must prove that it is not contradicted by canon, then we can talk about power levels involved.

"prove that it is not contradicted by canon" -

Prove that there isn't a flying spaghetti monster in outer space, or go and look up Burden of Proof.

Which is just your modus operandi. You bring forth „proof“ from EU, while handily „forgetting“ fact that actual canon contradicts it.

YOU used both dankayo and the technical journal as evidence:

(from you, Picard)

BDZ4 wrote:
"The Imperial Star Destroyer has enough firepower to reduce a civilized world to slag."
-- Imperial Sourcebook


If one ISD can reduce any random world to slag, adding „civilized“ would be unnecessary. Therefore, BDZ is equivalent of GO24 – destroying cities, villages, factories, mines, etc.

And then turn around and blame me for using the same sources?

It is one wanktastic quote contradicted by rest of EU and by canon.

Which does not fit at all with the definition of "misrepresent". You accused me of misrepresenting THAT QUOTE, not its validity. So where again did I take it out of context or warp its meaning?

They are neither. Else that ISD would not have gotten destroyed by asteroid destroying its bridge.

Prove it or shut it. Having a neutronium alloy hull does not mean that a ship is invincible.

Beacouse of jamming.

And WHY do you only apply this rationalization to Star Trek, even though Star Wars has G canon confirmed jamming?

We know that they can engage at long range.

As can Star Wars vessels and weapons, shown with the ion cannon, the superlaser and the Rebel Stand turbolaser trick.

We know that subspace fields can jam sensors.

Explain then, why the Enterprise was able to mark specific coordinates on the cube's hull if it was being jammed so badly that it cannot target the borg from >10 km away?

We know that ships generate subspace fields when shields are active ( http://picard578.hostoi.com/startrek-vs ... ields.html ). We know that ships are densely packed. Result? Huge, powerful subspace field preventing lock-on at long range.

Except that said subspace field did not stop the Enterprise from freely communicating, scanning the cube's hull and marking specific coordinates, so effective jamming was not in effect. Therefore, there is no reason to assume that the Enterprise's targeting systems were messed up when its communication, scanning and specific coordinate markings were completely fine.

Plus, told is more reliable than shown, beacouse it follows writer's intention more closely.

And Nute Gunray said that nothing could penetrate a TF battleship's shields.

In fact, a moff, as I recall Tarkin, stated that once completed the Death Star would be the most powerful force in the universe. The most powerful energy bursts in the universe are gamma ray bursts, with over e44 joules being released.

That invalidates them how? To remind you, you were using First Contact battle – small scale skirmish, beacouse only few dozen Starfleet ships were present at time – to „prove“ Starfleet can't engage anyone at long range.

If that was a small fleet by starfleet standards, why was it so completely crippled by the loss of much of the fleet?

For same reason I have already explained.

Oh really? Whatever happened to your "it was just VFX", "it was to limit the time for the borg to counter" and "it was to limit its field of fire" theories?

Unless it is bleedthrought of an energy weapon.

Prove it. How would an energy weapon support your argument that a volley of gigaton torpedos will only affect San Fransico.

Quote is anything BUT extremely vague. You don't like it, so you scream that it is „extremely vague“. It is not – it exactly shows us how superlaser operates.

Show me WHERE in that quote in which it states that the superlaser would, in that case, convert the super-dense stone into energy.

The only scientifically plausible way for that to happen would be if the superlaser were antimatter, and a WHOLE FREAKING LOT of it as well in order to destroy a planet, far more than the Federation has produced in its lifetime.

Except that it happened in some WW2 battles – Japanese battleship was destroyed by cruisers which were relatively close.

And guess what? Not only was this likely an exception; and I'd like to have a name of the battle or a source, but WW2 =/= modern day naval warfare, especially not futuristic space warfare!

It's not; that way, torpedoes preserve yields,

What? You said:

1. That the torpedos were slow because they were slowed down to conserve energy, as they were not needed to go fast to hit the cube

2. That the torpedos were fired at within 10 kilometers so that the cube would not be able to scan and adapt to the torpeods, or would have less time to do so.

Let's see if you can notice the stupid contradiction.

and phasers mostly always move at same speed.

And the Federation fleet was occasionally dodging the crap aim borg beam weapon!

It was just a theory.

A theory that has glaring flaws all over it, as I have pointed out; it's a self defeating tactic.

But it allows for larger yields, and more power to shields and weapons.

So are you saying that the torpeodos are modified on the fly to transfer some of their propulsion fuel into their explosive fuel? And do you notice that this rationalization does not fit at all with your original one?

As I have stated at these very pages. You do not even take a glance at evidence being presented to you; instead, you only assume what I am saying and draw conclusions from that.

So then what's your point? Star Wars weapons have demonstrated high range hits, so why are you denying this?

Yes. Or for God's sake, click at links I give you once, and read them.

http://picard578.hostoi.com/startrek-vs ... edoes.html

http://picard578.hostoi.com/startrek-vs ... asers.html

How does this have anything to do with subspace sensors, which is what we were talking about?

Which was proven false more than once. Extremely redundant decentralized systems, yes. No discernible subsystems or weaknesses, no – that was proven more than once, including very episode you quote.

Yes, but the Federation did not know that the myth was false at that point.

Standard – weapons, computer cores, sensors... Or you seriously think Borg use some kind of magic?

All except for weapons and maybe sensors (which, by your own claim, were being jammed beyond the point working, at that, by your own claim, at 10 km ranges would not be relevant either way) of which would be deep inside the ship.

Fail.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJZbCNex ... re=related - 1:30

Data: „The coordinates you have indicated do not appear to be a vital system.“ (NOT: Borg cube does not have any subsystems).
Picard: „Trust me, Data.“
- Fleet fires at said coordinates. –
- borg cube explodes –

So, how fleet firing at some specific coordinates succeded in destroying a cube when it survived protracted battle beforehand?

Because those specific coordinates were some weak spot (which was so concealed that Data did not recognize it) that Picard learned of in his short time as a borg. Did you even watch the episode, or are you trying to fool me?

Phasers, anyone?

Why would the fleet only worry about the borg adapting to phasers (which can be adjusted in frequency to bypass this) but not to the more powerful photon torpedos (which cannot be adjusted using that trick, and thus would have a higher priority to resist from borg adaption)?

And cube could concentrate at just one ship at the time – nearest one.

How can it do so with any more efficiency than at close range where said ships do NOT have several hundred thousand kilometers do dodge the attacks?

Besides, my subsystems point still stands – your lies notwithstanding.

Except that, if Federation ships were as precise as you claim, they would still be able to target these subsystems (most of which would be too far into the hull to target) from far away! And jamming could not the issue, or otherwise how was the Enterprise able to mark very specific coordinates on the cube's hull?

Obviously not any „critical“ spots, but weapons, power relays and sensors are obvious targets. Only problem is that cube can regenerate, but they still succeded in damaging it to the pint that its outer power grid heavily fluctuates – obviously showing extensive damage.

And why would any of these be foolishly planted on the outside of the cube, why would they not have redundancies, why would sensors matter when by your own admission they were being jammed, but that, again by your claim, they were not needed at such close ranges and thus is why they went within 10 kilometers? Your various contradicting theories contradict each other.

In first novel, against fighters. But I don't remember any other.

One is enough for evidence of jamming.

Possible.

Is this an agreement? As it contains no rebuttal, I'd assume so. Therefore, Star Wars also has jamming just like Star Trek, so you can use this to equally handwave away all Star Wars close range encounters the same way you handwave Star Trek close range encounters.

It was. So what?

The course of an object in a predictable path is rather easy to plot. The Federation fleet should have been able to hit the cube from a considerable distance away even with passive sensors and some math, meaning that jamming/targeting is not an issue.

Extreme distances being?

Hundreds of thousands of kilometers or even astronomical units away.

No, we simply don't see them missing.

And you extrapolate not seeing them missing as them never missing?

Shields, anyone?

ST shields typically cannot take more than a volley or two of photon torpedos before failing (and this has nothing to do with said torpedos' respective yields, simply the shield:torpedo ratio), and given their impressive RoF, the collision would have been a complete bloodbath (on par with two modern armies charging at each other medieval style)...had their weapons been accurate.

And Star Wars is better how? Federation fleet had to push throught Dominion fleet, and had no time to play games.

In the movies and movie novels, ramming is never intentionally used, and fleets do not charge through one another.

And Star Wars has a higher shield:turbolaser ratio than ST has shield:torpedo ratio, so such tactics would be more justified.

Again, jamming, which you did not disprove. And only Cardassian ships are shown firing. Plus, that does not disprove numerous examples of 10 000+ km ranges.

YOU have to prove jamming, I do not have to "disprove" a negative.

Even with WW2 aiming equipment (much of which was not electronic) the Federation should have been able to hit the fighters.

As another implication of this event, the fighters were using their phasers to attack the ships; fighter mounted phasers can pose a threat to ST vessels! Unless if you're going to claim megaton level fighter phasers (which would not explain why the 2009 ST movie showed Spock using such a fighter's phasers to sub kiloton damage), that sort of throws your gigaton tanking shields out.

Weapons arrays were destroyed.

Really? I missed that; but with such supposedly high sublight speeds, the Voyager could have accelerated away from the object with ease.

Beacouse they can use ship's warp core power to launch torpedo? And beacouse torpedoes can change course?

Changing course requires delta V.

Which is disproved now.

Are you admitting that your theory was disproven? That's a good sign of maturity, if it is.

And you would do what?

I would zip over the dominion fleet at relativistic speeds; if they could still hit me at those speeds, then obviously they'd hit me at merely supersonic speeds.

SWST: „Let us fly throught enemy fleet at 0.8 c, and loose entire fleet due to collisons. Or let us try to go around them, allowing them to intercept us and attack first, while loosing precious time?

...you honestly have no idea how large space is, or the fact that I was only referring to the Defiant, do you?

He feared for his safety; it is not stated wether he was actually jeopardized or not. Plus, it still doesn't remove point that you can't use EU to disprove canon.

That's another grasping at straws attempt; why would he fear for his life if a base delta zero were merely a bunch of airbursts that would never get anywhere near a deep planetary shelter, nor would it blow off the atmosphere like it did?

IF YOU HAVE NOT FORGOTTEN, THIS IS NOT BASE DELTA ZERO THREAD. WE LEFT IT AGES AGO WITH OUR DISCUSSION.[/u]

We did not "leave" it, we merely created this thread to avoid derailment.

You do. Beacouse I have provided you with canon example that disproves non-canon Base Delta Zero („vaporize a small town“), yet you still cling to EU sources.

How does vaporizing a small town disprove this?

Non-occupied? So, you are saying that starship should be filled with garbage to roof in order to „occupy“ it?

That's not the point; we were discussing the validity of my Death Star speed calculation, and you were claiming that me using GSC densities was foolish because GSC's are denser than the Death Star. Both are roughly on par in density.

So the Death Star was expending 2e29 (give or take a factor of a few depending on its density) joules to its engines, scaling down for an ISD to 2e23 joules...all from G canon.

Death Star exited hyperspace and used Yavin's gravity to accelerate itself towards target.

A gas giant cannot accelerate anything by 64 km/s^2. That is impossible.

We know it can move in realspace, but it obviously isn't fast,

Says who? The Death Star accelerated at 64 km/s^2, it HAD to have done this, G canon supports it, and using the gravity of a gas giant is NOT going to get the Death Star to that level of acceleration.

and we don't know how.

Which is why your theory goes to shit, Picard.

You are evading. You post bullshit, then you ask for proof, yet you do not read proof I give. FO.

NO PROOF.

And how long it takes to start accelerating?

If the captain is smart and suspects ramming from a desperate ships, a second or two.

Plus only such example I know about is Nemesis fight – you really think that accelerating at few thousand G is clever when you are surronded by mass of particles?

What is this "mass of particles" and how would it damage a supposedly gigaton tanking ship?

I calculated impact damage that stone in realspace will do to such ship.

The fact that you cut out your obvious misinterpretation (or attempt to misdirect) of our discussion does not escape me. What do warp impacts have to do with sublight speeds?

Source?

Your own site.

Source?

ESB, the Falcon goes to Bespin using sublight engines in a short amount of time; short in that none of the main characters age, and the EU's BBY/ABY year chart does not flip forward.

Wormhole is not.

Simple; they accelerate past the fleet/over the fleet at supposedly relativistic speeds, then zip through the worm hole, maybe decelerating slightly.

And be intercepted.

What is this? Sisko and crew weren't successfully intercepted when moving at a few hundred meters/second, yet when moving at 0.8 C they're suddenly going to get intercepted. Moving faster would make it harder to intercept them, not the other way around!

Collision, and subsequent multi-gigaton explosion of ship they collided with... which is also shielded, meaning that shields of both ships would probably fail before hulls came into contact.

And the size of the dominion ships is close to nothing compared to the size of space, meaning that the Defiant could easily have zipped over it; and they were not shot down when going through the enemy fleet at supersonic speeds, so moving at 0.8 C OVER them is not going to get them hit.

I was talking about wormhole encounter.

So you're thinking that they'd zip past the wormhole...then they'd just turn around, no big deal.

[Picard]

The novel RODV mentions multi megaton asteroids, and the movie only shows 0.001% of these asteroids impacting the hull, so there is no contradiction.

There is. First, that novel is not canon. Second, we see ISD vaporizing any larger asteroids. Third, asteroid that would produce 1 megaton impact would have to be 52 million tons, with diameter of 200 meters. You really think they would just slam into such asteroid? Moreover, we see ony one such asteroid during entire asteroid chase scene, and it's cratering energy is between 0.7 to 73 kilotons, according to Wong's calculator. Well within capacity of Imperial guns to destroy.

Would you like me to calculate the energy needed to destroy said asteroid?

No, beacouse your premise is wrong.

And they are. 15-30 meters is pretty darn large for a supersonic object.

Except that all asteroids that we see are mostly stationary or slow-moving, and there is no mention of „supersonic“ anything. In short: you are bullshitting.

There is no evidence to support this; Vader only called the bounty hunters after they entered the asteroid field, because there would be little chance of them getting the Falcon in such a field.

Or there would be little chance of getting Falcon at all.

Because one was projected to probably do the job, but two used competently would definitely do the job, and that makes the difference.

Except that you unnecessarily complicate logistics, spend resources, etc. And you know how obsessed Borg are with „efficiency“. Since you obviously don't know definition of it, let me quote it for you:

The comparison of what is actually produced or performed with what can be achieved with the same consumption ofresources

In both cases, one cube was enough for the job. It is only that you can't counter either assymetric warfare or opponent that knows you as well as you do.

If these resources were unusable, why do you say that melting the crust would "only create huge deposits of unclaimed resources (like glass)?"

You are bullshitting (again). Glass will be on SURFACE. These resources are DEEP.

What part of natural resources being deep inside a planet’s mantle don’t you understand?

You said that resources are deep inside planet's mantle. But we never see them being mined, or technology that would allow them to do it, so it means they can't use these resources no matter what, and melting mantle is not required. Second point was that if everything and anything can be resource, then melting crust and mantle will not destroy all and any resources as you claim it will.

There is a large underground in Coruscant, and said concentration points are going to be spread, in case if you have not read a world map in your life.

Bullshitter. Forst, we never see Coruscant's underground in canon. Second, of course concentration points are going to be spread, meaning that ISD will just have to place its shots wider to destroy them. There is no need for destroying crust of entire planet to do it – individual megaton-range shots are enough.

Picard, are you this big of a hypocritical prancing ignoramus? Your own source stated that BDZ destroys natural resources.

And what you define as natural resources? Every possible speck of dirt, stone, etc.? Maybe doggie's pee is extremely important natural resource in Star Wars, when we're at it.

And as my quotes show, there may be deep planetary shelters that your version of BDZ would not reach.

Even better, since we know there were survivors of BDZ in exactly such shelters.

Actually, a well organized guerrilla operation can destroy supply lines, ambush transports, and overall deny resources to the enemy. For some reason, you think that this; denying resources to the enemy, matches "turning the civilized world to slag", and "destroying all natural resources".

„Destroying all natural resources“ is exactly that – blowing up sources of these resources – mines, etc. As for „turning civilized world into slag“, it is at odds with actual canon and EU.

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWbd0.html

This is blatant evasion. Every source I bring up that rightfully supports my position, no misrepresentation needed, is dismissed by you as "in contradiction with the rest of EU as well as canon", despite you failing to prove this.

I have proved it. I gave you several quotes, and besides, you have entire thread listing such sources – I have no interest in EU, and only my optimism that you might actually stop bullshitting is why I allowed you to get me into EU discussion even after we left BDZ thread.

But for some reason, your sources do not, even though they are in contradiction with MY sources, which is essentially every quote of a base delta zero ever. You are essentially dismissing all of my well thought out quotes because they "contradict canon" in your stupid circular reasoning fest while hypocritically cherry picking all of the conveniently LOW END ones because they "do not contradict canon".

Exactly. EU is not canon; and you CANNOT override canon with non-canon. You are basically calling me out beacouse I *gasp* cannot accept your warped style of debating where any non-canon sources that show high-end Wars firepower are suddenly more canon than actual canon.

AND NO MOVIE SOURCE EVER MENTIONS BASE DELTA ZERO.

But they give enough data to allow us to actually calculate SW firepower without using non-canon bullshit. Firepower which is far below ICS levels.

Your logical reasoning skills are not very good. The ISD's failed to completely destroy the base, but the base is not a quantifiable target! The atmosphere of Dankayo is, and it was destroyed!

So we know that the SAME BOMBARDMENT:

Failed to destroy a base
Succeeded in destroying the atmosphere

The energy needed to blow off the atmosphere of an Earth like planet is 3.2*10^26 joules.

Funny, seeing as how they are destroyed by kiloton-range kinetic impacts. And no, base IS quantifiable target, since we know that durasteel (widely used in construction) is no better than normal steel. Plus, what proof you have that it was not some NDF-style chain-reaction event that destroyed atmosphere? I have allowed you to draw me into discussionabout SW non-canon, which I know extremely little about (even less than you know about Star Trek and Star Wars canon), but that does not mean I will ignore your bullshit.

Yet the entire planet's atmosphere was blown off (the base's atmosphere alone being blown off is a violation of thermodynamics), meaning that a side effect of the energy needed to destroy the base is 3.2*10^26 joules!

Or chain-raction technobabble we see with Death Star main weapon and UFP phasers.

Then explain why it says to turn the civilized world into slag. Do you ever use the term slag in the context of collapsing civilization? Don't grasp at straws; although slag may or may not be literal, the low end figurative definition is to physically destroy and maim, not to collapse indirectly as you are implying.

Then you explain why you think your interpretation can override canon, which directly contradicts that?

How do you know that they are not used? And you are still ignoring the quote you brought up; it said to destroy all natural resources, it did not distinguish between those that are used and those that aren't.

And you still think every pack of dirt is relevant. Good portion of oil is outside of our reach. Do you think Army will dig multi-kilometer holes and detonate nuclear weapons to destroy oil sources that are not even used?

Vaporizing a town would include material such as stone and metal, and vaporizing said material would make stone rise like water vapor, which is even more impressive than running like water.

„Vaporizing a town“ means removing it from face of planet. Search for „vaporized town“ at Google Images. Eventually, you will see pictures of nuclear explosions (page 5 for first and page 22 for second query). So, no. You try to wank up Star Wars by choosing most unusual interpretation you can, which is NOT used in common speech.

And modern city-killing (not town-killing) nukes are in megaton-range.

Prove it, and explain why the Earth is never mentioned in the novels, EVER.

Beacouse he is trying to describe something to citizens of Earth, therefore choosing Earth-local definition of „small town“.

Of course not, Sherlock, it's in a freaking desert. Would you use metal to build homes in a desert? So explain to me why a generic "small town" would be in a desert.

And why would any other small town be any different in size and materials? Why would you use metals to build small town in a grassland?

Why does he run calculations to vaporize wood, and not metal, stone, or any other common building materials?

He does not base his result on that, so it is irrelevant.

Red herring. You were claiming that IF "wanktastic" shields existed, the Falcon would survive the asteroid being vaporized, so Vader's goal of keeping them alive to capture would still be fulfilled. I am arguing that said "wanktastic" shields would not be enough to protect them from such a release of energy, and therefore Vader would not want to destroy the asteroid because the Falcon might be destroyed.

That is NOT what I am saying. I was referring to Leia's „you are mad, we'll be pulverized if we go there“ line. And Han never says „we'll shrug off asteroids like rain“.

Because the admiral was making a split second reaction to entering an asteroid field, and did not sit down and calculate the energy that would impact the shields?

You are really saying that 10-40 meter asteroids could produce gigaton-level impact?

All it takes is for one hypersonic, giant asteroid to hit an ISD and it's in big trouble.

One of which we never see or hear anything about.

As for the tie fighters, they are stated to be extremely fragile, and mass produced.

And Imperials are not afraid of snding them to be destroyed in futile chase.

Your calculation, Picard, is a joke. You make stupid assumptions, such as the asteroids we see impacting the hull being the strongest asteroids that impact their hull in a day

Beacouse we never see any larger ones impacting? And beacouse we see Imperials destroying any larger asteroids?

You are the one to claim Dankayo as a low end showing. If it were contradicted by canon, why did YOU bring it forward?

And you are one trying to refute canon by using EU. This is not Base Delta Zero topic anymore.

As destroying the civilized world? How is that a twist of the facts?

You have entire damn topic listing sorces that contradict BDZ. I personally am not interested in Eu, and all my sources on BDZ are second-hand.

The quote blatantly says it! You can disagree with me with the validity of the quote itself, but do not accuse me of warping the quote when there is clearly no warping involved, just obvious interpretation of obvious statements.

You warp is canon policy and canon itself. That is enough. And don't push me to go around forum searching for topics when you warped something.

Why don't you provide evidence that the ISD used a "wanktastic" atmosphere-removal effect (how it is wanktastic when it is supported by the very quote that you brought up) instead of just firing at it with turbolasers?

Beacouse it is only way for it to be in line with canon. We know superlaser uses such effects, there is no reason why ISD wouldn't. Especially since we know that they CAN'T melt surface of planet from canon.

Unless if the ISD has full data of the precise location of every last mine and mineral deposit, they'd have to melt several dozen meters of the entire planet; and oil rigs can exist underwater.

1) And with their wanktastic EU sensors, they should not have trouble with finding them
2) there is example in Rise of Dark Force (part of Thrawn's trilogy and only EU book I read, or plan on reading, in my life) about turbolaser bolts travelling underwater and hitting sea bottom (or it was flak effect, I'm not sure about it).

Prove that there isn't a flying spaghetti monster in outer space, or go and look up Burden of Proof.

You are one bringing EU in debate. Let me remind you, we are NOT in BDZ topic any more, and I could comfortably ignore any non-canon crap you bring forth.

YOU used both dankayo and the technical journal as evidence:

Which does not remove fact that they are non-canon. And besides, you did not prove that my quote is wrong. „Civilized“ point stands, since if ISD could reduce any world to slag, adding „civilized“ would be unnecessary.

Prove it or shut it. Having a neutronium alloy hull does not mean that a ship is invincible.

Except that you would like to claim it, and EU does claim it, as most Warsies do. And besides, that asteroid impact was kiloton-scale event; if ISD had neutronium hull, it should not even get a scratch.

And WHY do you only apply this rationalization to Star Trek, even though Star Wars has G canon confirmed jamming?

Beacouse there is NO combat longer than 6 000 km in canon.

As can Star Wars vessels and weapons, shown with the ion cannon, the superlaser and the Rebel Stand turbolaser trick.

Ion canon showed ~6 000 km range, superlaser was targeting whole damn planet (if they somehow missed it, I would be surprised) and Rebel Stand is not canon, nor am I familiar with it.

Explain then, why the Enterprise was able to mark specific coordinates on the cube's hull if it was being jammed so badly that it cannot target the borg from >10 km away?

It sent coordinates to fleet, it did not mark anything.

Except that said subspace field did not stop the Enterprise from freely communicating, scanning the cube's hull and marking specific coordinates, so effective jamming was not in effect. Therefore, there is no reason to assume that the Enterprise's targeting systems were messed up when its communication, scanning and specific coordinate markings were completely fine.

Other than ignoring 20+ times we see them being able to fire from 10 000+ kilometers (as you are fond of doing), it is one of few explanations I can think of.

And Nute Gunray said that nothing could penetrate a TF battleship's shields.

Let me remind you:
1) he was trader
2) ship was destroyed from INSIDE
3) he said that in context of attack

In fact, a moff, as I recall Tarkin, stated that once completed the Death Star would be the most powerful force in the universe. The most powerful energy bursts in the universe are gamma ray bursts, with over e44 joules being released.

„Most powerful force“ as in „most powerful military force“. Or you think that US army is somehow more powerful than Yellowstone supervolcano?

If that was a small fleet by starfleet standards, why was it so completely crippled by the loss of much of the fleet?

You are lying. There were two Borg incursions, as well as whole Federation-Klingon war. And no, Starfleet was not crippled, nor did it lose majority of fleet. 100 – or – so ships probably lost in two Borg incursions are probably strength of one sector fleet.

Prove it. How would an energy weapon support your argument that a volley of gigaton torpedos will only affect San Fransico.

Volley of gigaton-range beams will only affect San Francisco, if it is only targeted there. Or it might be ground attack, we don't know.

Show me WHERE in that quote in which it states that the superlaser would, in that case, convert the super-dense stone into energy.

THAT QUOTE. And where you got super-dense stone from?

The only scientifically plausible way for that to happen would be if the superlaser were antimatter, and a WHOLE FREAKING LOT of it as well in order to destroy a planet, far more than the Federation has produced in its lifetime.

Or used some technobabble. WE DON'T KNOW HOW IT WORKS.

And guess what? Not only was this likely an exception; and I'd like to have a name of the battle or a source, but WW2 =/= modern day naval warfare, especially not futuristic space warfare!

Futuristic space warfare based on WW2 which is similar to WW2 warfare.

Let's see if you can notice the stupid contradiction.

Let me show you what IS stupid contradiction:

1) We have 20-odd examples of ranges in thousands of kilometers
2) we have similar number of shorter ranges
3) now, lets just ignore number 1 for no reason whatsoever other than our own personal bias

And the Federation fleet was occasionally dodging the crap aim borg beam weapon!

Defiant was only ship I saw doing it with any degree of success. And it was specifically designed to fight Borg; ideally, one would put something that will jam their sensors on it.

So are you saying that the torpeodos are modified on the fly to transfer some of their propulsion fuel into their explosive fuel?

Torpedoes have to have onboard fuel source.

So then what's your point? Star Wars weapons have demonstrated high range hits, so why are you denying this?

6 000 km range, and no, I am not denying it.

Yes, but the Federation did not know that the myth was false at that point.

Really? After Picard was de-assimilated, they did not know it? Are you really that biased?

All except for weapons and maybe sensors (which, by your own claim, were being jammed beyond the point working, at that, by your own claim, at 10 km ranges would not be relevant either way) of which would be deep inside the ship.

Ah, yes. And weapons are soo irrelevant. We see that some parts of cube have deep holes while others are undamaged. You have better explanation?

Because those specific coordinates were some weak spot (which was so concealed that Data did not recognize it) that Picard learned of in his short time as a borg. Did you even watch the episode, or are you trying to fool me?

It is movie, not epsiode. And let me remind you – you were trying to say that Borg cube DOES NOT HAVE any subsystems. Don't try to warp facts now.

Why would the fleet only worry about the borg adapting to phasers (which can be adjusted in frequency to bypass this) but not to the more powerful photon torpedos (which cannot be adjusted using that trick, and thus would have a higher priority to resist from borg adaption)?

Adjusted in frequency which Borg detect while phaser beam hits. And do you have proof that torpedoes change shield frequencies while in flight?

How can it do so with any more efficiency than at close range where said ships do NOT have several hundred thousand kilometers do dodge the attacks?

Beacouse other ships can lend support – including jamming, or physically protecting it. Or lending some power to help strengthen shields of endangered vessel – Kazon use similar tactics, so don't try to say it's impossible.

Except that, if Federation ships were as precise as you claim, they would still be able to target these subsystems

In spite of likely jamming?

And jamming could not the issue, or otherwise how was the Enterprise able to mark very specific coordinates on the cube's hull?

Stop lying. It did not mark coordinates on hull. It simply sent coordinates to fleet.

And why would any of these be foolishly planted on the outside of the cube,

All over throught the cube would be more precise. And you can't put weapons iside the hull so that you destroy your own hull with your weapons. That would really help.

why would sensors matter when by your own admission they were being jammed

Sensors at long range were jammed, and Starfleet closed in to clear jamming. Plus things outlined above.

Your various contradicting theories contradict each other.

Prove it. And even if they do, ONE of them is correct, since we KNOW that Starfleet can engage at long range.

One is enough for evidence of jamming.

Maybe. But that doesn't prove that weapons have light-minute ranges. 6 000 kilometers is longest range we see in canon.

so you can use this to equally handwave away all Star Wars close range encounters

Except that longest SW range is still shorter than longest ST range by factor of 37.

The course of an object in a predictable path is rather easy to plot. The Federation fleet should have been able to hit the cube from a considerable distance away even with passive sensors and some math, meaning that jamming/targeting is not an issue.

And sacrifice lot of effectiveness in doing that. Is it better to pump out 300 torpedoes at short range or 30 torpedoes at long range? Especially against enemy that can engage you from as far away as you can engage him?

Hundreds of thousands of kilometers or even astronomical units away.

Only with guided missiles. Which, again, can be jammed.

And you extrapolate not seeing them missing as them never missing?

Yes. You can't claim things you don't see.

ST shields typically cannot take more than a volley or two of photon torpedos before failing (and this has nothing to do with said torpedos' respective yields, simply the shield:torpedo ratio),

Really? And why you think that shields that take 5 5-gigaton torpedoes can only take 5 500-megaton ones? Realy „smart“, no comment.

and given their impressive RoF, the collision would have been a complete bloodbath (on par with two modern armies charging at each other medieval style)...had their weapons been accurate.

And bloodbath it was.

In the movies and movie novels, ramming is never intentionally used, and fleets do not charge through one another.

No, just Grievous charged throught Republic fleet and engaged them at age-of-sail style battle.

And Star Wars has a higher shield:turbolaser ratio than ST has shield:torpedo ratio, so such tactics would be more justified.

True. But ISD's are simply too slow and un-manouverable to „charge“ throught opposing fleet. „Lip throught“ would be more accurate.

YOU have to prove jamming, I do not have to "disprove" a negative.

It is proven by fact you are so vigorously trying to negate – we know it exists (Wounded) and we know that Star Trek ships can engage at 100 000+ km ranges under normal conditions.

Even with WW2 aiming equipment (much of which was not electronic) the Federation should have been able to hit the fighters.

But they don't have it. Plus, Cardassians WERE hitting fighters.

As another implication of this event, the fighters were using their phasers to attack the ships; fighter mounted phasers can pose a threat to ST vessels!

To Cardassian vessels, and I don't remember them using phasers, only torpedoes.

Unless if you're going to claim megaton level fighter phasers

Megaton-level seems right, since shipboard phasers are in hundreds of megatons, and „fighters“ are used more like torpedo boats. Althought that does not explain invisible power source, but small warp core is certainly a possibility.

which would not explain why the 2009 ST movie showed Spock using such a fighter's phasers to sub kiloton damage

That movie is set id DIFFERENT REALITY and is not canon. Nice fail boat you have there.

that sort of throws your gigaton tanking shields out.

Nope.

but with such supposedly high sublight speeds, the Voyager could have accelerated away from the object with ease.

It would probably have hit anyway.

Changing course requires delta V.

We see torpedoes changing course in one TNG episode (not sure which one).

Are you admitting that your theory was disproven? That's a good sign of maturity, if it is.

Maturity that you lack. Unlike you, I DO admit when I am wrong.

I would zip over the dominion fleet at relativistic speeds; if they could still hit me at those speeds, then obviously they'd hit me at merely supersonic speeds.

And you think they wouldn't intercept you?

...you honestly have no idea how large space is, or the fact that I was only referring to the Defiant, do you?

Large space is, but there is no way Feds could have gone around – or you think Dominion fleet would have just sit and wait for them to go to DS9? Or that Defiant would not be intercepted by dozen battlebugs?

That's another grasping at straws attempt; why would he fear for his life if a base delta zero were merely a bunch of airbursts that would never get anywhere near a deep planetary shelter, nor would it blow off the atmosphere like it did?

Maybe beacouse it was wanked up by Imperial propaganda?

We did not "leave" it, we merely created this thread to avoid derailment.

We did leave it. Stop lying. If we did not, we would have stayed there.

How does vaporizing a small town disprove this?

„Vaporizing“ small town points to low-Mt heavy turbolasers. That points to high-Gt heavy TL. That how.

So the Death Star was expending 2e29 (give or take a factor of a few depending on its density) joules to its engines, scaling down for an ISD to 2e23 joules...all from G canon.

1) We know that Empire can manipulate gravitation. There is no reason not to „lighten“ Death Star.
2) You CAN'T scale powerplant like you would scale eggs.

A gas giant cannot accelerate anything by 64 km/s^2. That is impossible.

It can help.

Says who? The Death Star accelerated at 64 km/s^2, it HAD to have done this, G canon supports it, and using the gravity of a gas giant is NOT going to get the Death Star to that level of acceleration.

With what? And how you prove it was stationary when it exited hyperspace?

Which is why your theory goes to shit, Picard.

As does yours.

If the captain is smart and suspects ramming from a desperate ships, a second or two.

Plus second or two while he gives order, and second or two while order is being inputed in controls.

What is this "mass of particles" and how would it damage a supposedly gigaton tanking ship?

Maybe not damage ship per se, but we don't know anything about that nebula. It FU'ed subspace communications, which obviously isn't normal.

The fact that you cut out your obvious misinterpretation (or attempt to misdirect) of our discussion does not escape me. What do warp impacts have to do with sublight speeds?

You are lying. Look at your post I answered to:

(how you calculated the impact damage of a ship moving at FTL is beyond me)

Your own site.

Page? Only acceleration I remember for MF is 24 to 48 m/s^2. Compare that with 100 million m/s^2 acceleration of refit Enterprise in TMP.

ESB, the Falcon goes to Bespin using sublight engines in a short amount of time; short in that none of the main characters age,

How far Bespin is? And I see that you are assuming that one of best galaxy's smugglers is so stupid that he does not have backup hyperdrive. After all, hyperdrive isn't Star Trek warp drive where you need nacelles (and even then, there is evidence that points to impulse drive being able to propel ships at warp speeds – Romulans in ENT did not have warp drive, yet were able to control interstellar empire.

Simple; they accelerate past the fleet/over the fleet at supposedly relativistic speeds, then zip through the worm hole, maybe decelerating slightly.

What are you talking about?

What is this? Sisko and crew weren't successfully intercepted when moving at a few hundred meters/second, yet when moving at 0.8 C they're suddenly going to get intercepted. Moving faster would make it harder to intercept them, not the other way around!

You were talking about Federation fleet getting around Dominion one. Defiant by herself has no chance in hell of taking back DS9, which was original goal.

And the size of the dominion ships is close to nothing compared to the size of space, meaning that the Defiant could easily have zipped over it; and they were not shot down when going through the enemy fleet at supersonic speeds, so moving at 0.8 C OVER them is not going to get them hit.

They were hit repeatedly. Plus whyt makes you think Dominion fleet won't intercept them? Beacouse your entire premise is based on Dominion fleet just fiddling their fingers while Feds zip past them. And no, going around left flank, around right flank, over or under Dominion fleet makes no difference.

So you're thinking that they'd zip past the wormhole...then they'd just turn around, no big deal.

WTF are you talking about? ZIPPING THROUGHT WORMHOLE AT WARP SPEED.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

*drumroll*

After my (unjust) ban, my computer was stormed by a host of viruses and messups, but I'm back...

well, the google redirect virus is still here, but my computer is functional, hopefully.

I will be posting a response.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

There is. First, that novel is not canon.

It is Continuity Canon. How long will you wish to keep this up?

Second, we see ISD vaporizing any larger asteroids.

I assume that you left out a negative by accident; we don't see that because the camera is only on the ISD vaping asteroids for a few seconds, and they were in the belt for at least a day.

Third, asteroid that would produce 1 megaton impact would have to be 52 million tons, with diameter of 200 meters. You really think they would just slam into such asteroid?

Where did you come up with these arbitrary sizes, have you ever considered that there are two variables in kinetic energy?

Moreover, we see ony one such asteroid during entire asteroid chase scene, and it's cratering energy is between 0.7 to 73 kilotons, according to Wong's calculator. Well within capacity of Imperial guns to destroy.

See above.

No, beacouse your premise is wrong.

I have official sources backing me up, and the movies do not contradict it because we do not see the ISD's during the whole day.

Except that all asteroids that we see are mostly stationary or slow-moving, and there is no mention of „supersonic“ anything. In short: you are bullshitting.

Mostly stationary? You're kidding me, right?

Or there would be little chance of getting Falcon at all.

Red herring. What's your point?

Except that you unnecessarily complicate logistics,

With the borg, what logistics?

spend resources, etc.

Does it take resources from the borg to travel to Federation space?

And you know how obsessed Borg are with „efficiency“. Since you obviously don't know definition of it, let me quote it for you:

The comparison of what is actually produced or performed with what can be achieved with the same consumption ofresources

In both cases, one cube was enough for the job. It is only that you can't counter either assymetric warfare or opponent that knows you as well as you do.

Except that one obviously was not enough for the job. The first time it would be understandable for them to only send one cube. The second time, perhaps they did have a premise in that the first time was a fluke. However, the fact that the Federation still survives into the 31st century implies that the borg either gave up on the Federation, or sent an attack fleet again...consisting of only one cube or a few. The borg have no known threats other than species 8472; their other cubes can't be doing much, why not send one hundred to storm the capital and assimilate Earth?

You are bullshitting (again). Glass will be on SURFACE. These resources are DEEP.

Which refutes your entire claim. So explain to be how you expect a star destroyer to take out underground mines and mineral deposits using megaton airbursts.

You said that resources are deep inside planet's mantle. But we never see them being mined, or technology that would allow them to do it, so it means they can't use these resources no matter what, and melting mantle is not required. Second point was that if everything and anything can be resource, then melting crust and mantle will not destroy all and any resources as you claim it will.

Except that the same source mentions deep planetary shelters, meaning that:

1. Star Wars has the technology to build durable shelters deep inside a planet

2. Such shelters are considered necessary to survive a BDZ, not, as your source suggests, hiding a few hundred meters underground.

Bullshitter. Forst, we never see Coruscant's underground in canon.

And in this part of the post, we are referring to BDZ, which is not mentioned in G canon either, but since we are discussing it, we need to include the EU, or the discussion is meaningless.

Second, of course concentration points are going to be spread, meaning that ISD will just have to place its shots wider to destroy them. There is no need for destroying crust of entire planet to do it – individual megaton-range shots are enough.

Then explain the Dankayo incident, where somebody in a deep planetary shelter survives, but was fearing for his life. Why would he fear for his life if a base delta was a few airbursts over major cities?

And what you define as natural resources? Every possible speck of dirt, stone, etc.? Maybe doggie's pee is extremely important natural resource in Star Wars, when we're at it.

You're goalpost shifting. This is what you said:

Even that wanktastic Base Delta Zero won't destroy natural resources.

This is a quote that YOU brought up earlier, in this thread:

Base Delta Zero is the Imperial code order to destroy all population centres and resources, including industry, natural resources and cities.

Even better, since we know there were survivors of BDZ in exactly such shelters.

And these shelters were deep planetary shelters, not the few hundred meter deep shelters that you would need to withstand your version of BDZ, which is a few airbursts over a few cities.

„Destroying all natural resources“ is exactly that – blowing up sources of these resources – mines, etc. As for „turning civilized world into slag“, it is at odds with actual canon and EU.

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWbd0.html

Do you understand what natural resources are? Are you postulating that a mine is a natural resource, not...the actual metal? The mine is the manmade object for harnessing the natural resource, which is (gasp!) natural, and not mines and rigs.

Destroying a mine (many of which would be underground or inside mountains) does not destroy the natural resources that it is harvesting. Gosh, what is this?

I have proved it. I gave you several quotes, and besides, you have entire thread listing such sources – I have no interest in EU, and only my optimism that you might actually stop bullshitting is why I allowed you to get me into EU discussion even after we left BDZ thread.

You started this thread, and in it you were still debating the BDZ example with me. It's only halfway through that you suddenly decide to try and drop the issue, claiming that the quote that you yourself brought up is invalid.

Exactly. EU is not canon; and you CANNOT override canon with non-canon. You are basically calling me out beacouse I *gasp* cannot accept your warped style of debating where any non-canon sources that show high-end Wars firepower are suddenly more canon than actual canon.

Nowhere do G or T canon mention Base Delta Zero, and nowhere is it contradicted.

But they give enough data to allow us to actually calculate SW firepower without using non-canon bullshit. Firepower which is far below ICS levels.

Then explain how the Death Star expended 2e29 joules per second to circumnavigate a gas giant in 30 minutes.

Funny, seeing as how they are destroyed by kiloton-range kinetic impacts.

You mean the joint section of an unshielded ISD in space is comparable to a fortified, probably shielded Rebel base?

And no, base IS quantifiable target, since we know that durasteel (widely used in construction) is no better than normal steel.

Plus, what proof you have that it was not some NDF-style chain-reaction event that destroyed atmosphere?

Go search up burden of proof, and come back and apologize for your dishonest fallacy, or prove to me that you are not Osama Bin Laden.

I have allowed you to draw me into discussionabout SW non-canon, which I know extremely little about (even less than you know about Star Trek and Star Wars canon), but that does not mean I will ignore your bullshit.

YOU decided to refute one of my statements in the Base Delta Zero thread. Don't try and twist the story so that I somehow drew you into this.

Or chain-raction technobabble we see with Death Star main weapon and UFP phasers.

PROVE IT. And if this is true, why did you bring up the Dankayo quote?

Besides, if Star Wars has technobabble weapons that can tear the atmosphere off of worlds, don't you think that the Federation is kind of screwed, and that its planets will be uninhabited within days of a conflict?

Then you explain why you think your interpretation can override canon, which directly contradicts that?

Because you used this quote as evidence? Why did you use the quote as evidence, only to turn around and claim that it is not valid evidence as soon as it is shown that the quote goes against your side?

And you still think every pack of dirt is relevant. Good portion of oil is outside of our reach. Do you think Army will dig multi-kilometer holes and detonate nuclear weapons to destroy oil sources that are not even used?

Because a survivor in a deep planetary shelter was genuinely afraid of his life under a base delta zero.

Several sources show that base delta zeros are intended to kill everyone; this would include people underground.

„Vaporizing a town“ means removing it from face of planet. Search for „vaporized town“ at Google Images. Eventually, you will see pictures of nuclear explosions (page 5 for first and page 22 for second query). So, no. You try to wank up Star Wars by choosing most unusual interpretation you can, which is NOT used in common speech.

And modern city-killing (not town-killing) nukes are in megaton-range.

Are you honestly claiming that "removing it from the face of planet" is somehow in contradiction with melting stone? Are you honestly claiming that megaton level nukes can destroy cities? Megaton level nukes can devastate cities, they cannot "remove it from the face of the planet".

Beacouse he is trying to describe something to citizens of Earth, therefore choosing Earth-local definition of „small town“.

Then why doesn't any Star Wars author ever do this again or before?

And why would any other small town be any different in size and materials? Why would you use metals to build small town in a grassland?

...

Here's some information: Mos Eisley is in Tatooine, a planet that is:

1. Poor
2. Sparsely populated
3. Rural
4. A desert

Time to put some critical thinking skills to use:

1. Poor - Tatooine has few resources to build metal cities
2. Sparsely populated - Tatooine has few people to gather into a town
3. Why would rural farmers live in a town? Mos Eisley appears to simply be a place for people going to drink and gamble, or otherwise have some fun, and maybe some merchants or people leaving via ship.
4. WHY WOULD A TOWN IN A DESERT HAVE METAL BUILDINGS? Why would it be of any comparable size, when a larger town would gather more heat, which in a desert planet is not the best idea?

Do any of these factor apply in a developed Star Wars planet?

He does not base his result on that, so it is irrelevant.

Why did he bother to calculate it, and not metal or other building materials, only to pull some random equation out of nowhere?

That is NOT what I am saying. I was referring to Leia's „you are mad, we'll be pulverized if we go there“ line. And Han never says „we'll shrug off asteroids like rain“.

You are either being dishonest, or simply forgetting context:

Yes, they did. But if Falcon had that wanktastic hull you claim for Star Wars, it would have survived complete destruction of asteroid, unless shot was aimed directly at it.
As for misdirection attempts, you are right, I should slow down debate with you, looks I'm taking some of your characteristics now.

You are really saying that 10-40 meter asteroids could produce gigaton-level impact?

No, I am saying that the admiral did not sit down and calculate the kinetic energy that might impact the ISD fleet in the asteroid belt.

One of which we never see or hear anything about.

Not in the movies, but the movies only show a few minutes of a scene that lasted for at least a day.

And Imperials are not afraid of snding them to be destroyed in futile chase.

Which supports the idea that said tie fighters are cheap! Is this supposed to be a rebuttal?

Beacouse we never see any larger ones impacting? And beacouse we see Imperials destroying any larger asteroids?

See above.

And you are one trying to refute canon by using EU. This is not Base Delta Zero topic anymore.

YOU brought up Dankayo. After I out-debated you, your response was:

"So we have contradiction with canon."

It seems as though you are happy to bring up quotes when you feel that they support you, only to dismiss them as contradictions when you realize that they support me.

You have entire damn topic listing sorces that contradict BDZ. I personally am not interested in Eu, and all my sources on BDZ are second-hand.

Red herring, answer the question. How did I twist the facts.

You warp is canon policy and canon itself. That is enough. And don't push me to go around forum searching for topics when you warped something.

Goalpost move. Your claim was that I misrepresented the quote, not that the quote is non canon.

Beacouse it is only way for it to be in line with canon.

Prove it

We know superlaser uses such effects, there is no reason why ISD wouldn't.

So if every random star destroyer has a superlaser, why is it never mentioned or shown?

More importantly, if every ISD had such a superlaser, even if it were a chain reaction weapon, would that not seal a win for Star Wars? Could an ISD fleet just pop up next to each major Federation planet and tear off its atmosphere?

Especially since we know that they CAN'T melt surface of planet from canon.

We know that they can circumnavigate gas giants within minutes, which takes far more energy to do so.

1) And with their wanktastic EU sensors, they should not have trouble with finding them
2) there is example in Rise of Dark Force (part of Thrawn's trilogy and only EU book I read, or plan on reading, in my life) about turbolaser bolts travelling underwater and hitting sea bottom (or it was flak effect, I'm not sure about it).

1. Not if said mines are shielded with jammers, stealth systems or just lots and lots of concrete.

2. ...and?

You are one bringing EU in debate. Let me remind you, we are NOT in BDZ topic any more, and I could comfortably ignore any non-canon crap you bring forth.

You suddenly decide to ignore the "non canon crap" (even though YOU brought up dankayo; why would YOU bring up crap?) conveniently halfway through the thread (even though you were eagerly debating it in the first half of the thread), after your rebuttal devolved into:

So we have contradiction with canon.

In response to your own quote?

Which does not remove fact that they are non-canon. And besides, you did not prove that my quote is wrong. „Civilized“ point stands, since if ISD could reduce any world to slag, adding „civilized“ would be unnecessary.

Civilized worlds would consist of deep planetary shelters, fortified bunkers, mines and other structures underground or within mountains, defensive forces and potentially theater or planetary shields.

Except that you would like to claim it, and EU does claim it, as most Warsies do. And besides, that asteroid impact was kiloton-scale event; if ISD had neutronium hull, it should not even get a scratch.

Except that ISD's do not have a neutronium hull; they have a neutronium alloy hull. What's so hard to understand?

Beacouse there is NO combat longer than 6 000 km in canon.

But the rationalization is clearly jamming, the same rationalization for 10 km ranges in Star Trek that you use.

You could claim that ST shows 200,000 KM ranges; but surely those are in situations where jamming, your rationalization, is not used, otherwise why would they have such long ranges only then?

Ion canon showed ~6 000 km range, superlaser was targeting whole damn planet (if they somehow missed it, I would be surprised) and Rebel Stand is not canon, nor am I familiar with it.

Yes, and these are both impressive ranges. What about close Star Wars combat ranges?

It sent coordinates to fleet, it did not mark anything.

Let's apply deductive reasoning. If the Enterprise could send specific coordinates to the neighboring ships without the jamming of the borg cube (which apparently extends out to 100,000+ km's) stopping it, why can it not send said coordinates to its photon torpedos and program them to hit the borg cube from BVR?

Other than ignoring 20+ times we see them being able to fire from 10 000+ kilometers (as you are fond of doing), it is one of few explanations I can think of.

All of those are in small scale skirmishes. Therefore, for whatever reason:

Large scale battles: 10 km
Small scale skirmishes: sometimes BVR

Guess which one is more important in a war scenario?

Let me remind you:
1) he was trader
2) ship was destroyed from INSIDE
3) he said that in context of attack

1. A trader should be able to do math, right?
2. Which supports my reductio ad absurdum assertion that a TF battleship's shields are invincible.
3. And? He stated it in absolute, broad terms.

„Most powerful force“ as in „most powerful military force“. Or you think that US army is somehow more powerful than Yellowstone supervolcano?

But real life does not have any room for a "literary intent" method, unless if you think that all BS that is sprouted is actually true and fits with the authors of...real life.

So with your idea of literary intent, the Death Star unleashes over e44 joules of energy.

You are lying. There were two Borg incursions, as well as whole Federation-Klingon war. And no, Starfleet was not crippled, nor did it lose majority of fleet. 100 – or – so ships probably lost in two Borg incursions are probably strength of one sector fleet.

My bad; the battle in Best of Both Worlds, however, was stated to be a major setback and disaster for starfleet, meaning that the loss of <50 ships is significant.

Volley of gigaton-range beams will only affect San Francisco, if it is only targeted there.

Is this your explanation? That a volley of allegedly gigaton beams would be focused on San Francisco? Why, when one would totally destroy it? By your own claim, megaton level nukes are city busters, and you claim that the Breen assault force would focus potentially dozens or hundreds of photon torpedos on on city?

Or it might be ground attack, we don't know.

Launching a ground attack on an entire planet with a few ships just to cause damage is one of the most stupid tactics ST has come up with yet.

THAT QUOTE. And where you got super-dense stone from?

The context of the quote, mentioning and describing the stone?

Or used some technobabble. WE DON'T KNOW HOW IT WORKS.

Stupid appeal to ignorance; unless if there is proof of a conservation of energy violating technobabble that can convert matter in energy without antimatter you're wrong.

Futuristic space warfare based on WW2 which is similar to WW2 warfare.

We were talking about Star Trek. Thank you for admitting that Star Trek warfare is similar to WW2 warfare.

In reality, ST warfare is similar to age of sail warfare in tactics.

Let me show you what IS stupid contradiction:

1) We have 20-odd examples of ranges in thousands of kilometers
2) we have similar number of shorter ranges
3) now, lets just ignore number 1 for no reason whatsoever other than our own personal bias

Blatant red herring; we were referring to your theory of close range combat to prevent borg adaptation.

Defiant was only ship I saw doing it with any degree of success. And it was specifically designed to fight Borg; ideally, one would put something that will jam their sensors on it.

Yet WW2 level targeting systems should still have been able to hit it.

Torpedoes have to have onboard fuel source.

Red herring, reread what you missed.

6 000 km range, and no, I am not denying it.

And all 100,000 km+ showings for ST are presumably without jamming (which is your rationalization for the 10km showings, so logically the longer showings do not have this jamming issue), yet SW ships have jamming devices, so it's back to 10 km ranges.

Really? After Picard was de-assimilated, they did not know it? Are you really that biased?

The fleet was already engaging the cube before Picard returned to inform them of its weak spot.

Ah, yes. And weapons are soo irrelevant. We see that some parts of cube have deep holes while others are undamaged. You have better explanation?

The explanation is that they were focusing their firepower to penetrate the hull, duh.

It is movie, not epsiode. And let me remind you – you were trying to say that Borg cube DOES NOT HAVE any subsystems. Don't try to warp facts now.

I am saying that the cube had no subsystems that:

1. The Federation knew about
2. Were within the capability to reach and damage
3. Were relevant tactically; by your own claim, sensors were irrelevant at such close ranges.

Adjusted in frequency which Borg detect while phaser beam hits. And do you have proof that torpedoes change shield frequencies while in flight?

My entire point is that they cannot, which begs the question as to why the Federation would not worry, by your claim, about adapting to photon torpedos when they are easier to adapt to and more powerful.

Beacouse other ships can lend support – including jamming,

Are you trying to pull out more excuses out of nowhere? How is moving near the target supposed to help with jamming; why not close to the borg itself?

or physically protecting it.

...

If this actually is a relevant and effective tactic in ST, my point is proven.

Or lending some power to help strengthen shields of endangered vessel – Kazon use similar tactics, so don't try to say it's impossible.

How can you lend power, a measurement of energy/time? Presumably you mean energy, which propogates at C; or, for Star Trek, potentially faster, and would not require distances of a few hundred meters.

In spite of likely jamming?

Jamming that is also present with SW ships, but that you do not realize?

Stop lying. It did not mark coordinates on hull. It simply sent coordinates to fleet.

Semantics. If you can send specific coordinates of something, you can "mark" it too.

All over throught the cube would be more precise. And you can't put weapons iside the hull so that you destroy your own hull with your weapons. That would really help.

You can put missile tubes inside, but the cube only seemed to have a single beam weapon that fired one at a time.

Sensors at long range were jammed, and Starfleet closed in to clear jamming. Plus things outlined above.

So then why would they bother to target the cube sensors when, by this logic, you don't need sensors at close ranges?

Prove it. And even if they do, ONE of them is correct, since we KNOW that Starfleet can engage at long range.

Under certain circumstances? Maybe. But not in a large battle against a force that can also jam.

Maybe. But that doesn't prove that weapons have light-minute ranges. 6 000 kilometers is longest range we see in canon.

The light minute range was hypothetical against a stationary target; what's your point?

Except that longest SW range is still shorter than longest ST range by factor of 37.

No, there are examples of solar system spanning ranges for SW, and, if you count superweapons, cross galaxy ranges.

And the long range ST showings are negated whenever there is jamming, by your own admission, and Star Wars by your own admission has jamming tech.

And sacrifice lot of effectiveness in doing that. Is it better to pump out 300 torpedoes at short range or 30 torpedoes at long range? Especially against enemy that can engage you from as far away as you can engage him?

Why not pump out 300 torpedos at long range?

Only with guided missiles. Which, again, can be jammed.

How can guided missiles be jammed, if they are merely following a heat source?

And if the borg cube does not alter its course, guided missiles aren't even needed.

Yes. You can't claim things you don't see.

So since we never see Luke go to the bathroom, we shall assume that he doesn't?

Really? And why you think that shields that take 5 5-gigaton torpedoes can only take 5 500-megaton ones? Realy „smart“, no comment.

You don't get it; I was disclaiming you predictably misinterpreting my claim and arguing SW vs ST yields. My point is that ST cannot take as many photon torps as SW can take turbos.

And bloodbath it was.

By a bloodbath it would have been a complete, 99% casualty slaughter, but it was not.

No, just Grievous charged throught Republic fleet and engaged them at age-of-sail style battle.

No, Grevious ambushed Coruscant and sent down a large invasion force, the real objective being to capture Palpatine.

True. But ISD's are simply too slow and un-manouverable to „charge“ throught opposing fleet. „Lip throught“ would be more accurate.

Slow? Slow???

The large central view-screen was coming alive. It was no longer just the Death Star and the green moon behind it, floating isolated in space. Now the massive Imperial fleet could be seen flying in perfect, regimental formation, out from behind Endor in two behemoth flanking waves- heading to surround the Rebel fleet from both sides, like the pincers of a deadly scorpion.

And the shield barricaded the Alliance in front. They had nowhere to go.

Yep, a "slow" fleet could totally fly out from behind a planet to right behind a fleet so fast that they only notice it when they're already surrounding them. And the wording shows quite clearly that the fleet was moving with sublight engines, not using hyperjumps.

It is proven by fact you are so vigorously trying to negate – we know it exists (Wounded) and we know that Star Trek ships can engage at 100 000+ km ranges under normal conditions.

Please elaborate on its existence, and what Wounded describes the jammers as doing.

But they don't have it. Plus, Cardassians WERE hitting fighters.

At low rates, yes, but the Federation fighters were still surviving in vast numbers.

To Cardassian vessels, and I don't remember them using phasers, only torpedoes.

They seemed to be using pulse cannons of some sort.

What's more, Sisko explicitly ordered them to use "full impulse"...and their speeds were a few hundred meters/second.

Megaton-level seems right, since shipboard phasers are in hundreds of megatons, and „fighters“ are used more like torpedo boats. Althought that does not explain invisible power source, but small warp core is certainly a possibility.

...shipboard phasers are not hundreds of megatons. Prove it.

That movie is set id DIFFERENT REALITY and is not canon. Nice fail boat you have there.

It's just as canon as the other movies. The different reality's diverging point was Nero arriving; are you claiming that Nero arriving magically decreases the firepower of a ship that was from the original timeline by several orders of magnitude?

Nope.

Explain then, why Spock's ship had sub kiloton phaser cannons.

It would probably have hit anyway.

What? We see an object moving at a few hundred meter/second, and you claim that the Voyager at full acceleration would have cause the object "have hit anyway"?

So accelerating at several hundred thousand km/second as you claim, would have caused a few hundred meters/second object to still hit?

We see torpedoes changing course in one TNG episode (not sure which one).

Which puts to doubt your claim that the torpedos do not accelerate on their own power.

Maturity that you lack. Unlike you, I DO admit when I am wrong.

And you think they wouldn't intercept you?

Given that many Federation ships including the Defiant survived at a few hundred meters/second pass through, why do you think that they were suddenly get intercepted easily at near light speed, where the dominion ships would have perhaps a fraction of a blink of an eye to stop them?

Large space is, but there is no way Feds could have gone around – or you think Dominion fleet would have just sit and wait for them to go to DS9? Or that Defiant would not be intercepted by dozen battlebugs?

The Defiant was not intercepted when it moved a few hundred meters/second, and yet you claim that it will at relevavistic speeds?

Maybe beacouse it was wanked up by Imperial propaganda?

Hey, more grasping at straws! Maybe Riker's assessment of blowing up the asteroid was due to being wanked up by Federation propoganda (and don't claim that it doesn't exist)!

We did leave it. Stop lying. If we did not, we would have stayed there.

Your very first quote in this thread was in regards to BDZ, and you suddenly drop it midway through as soon as your own quote is turned against you.

„Vaporizing“ small town points to low-Mt heavy turbolasers. That points to high-Gt heavy TL. That how.

Vaporizing a small town's upper limit is difficult to quantify due to the ambiguous definition of "small town", the definition of figurative vaporization and other factors that you fail to factor.

1) We know that Empire can manipulate gravitation. There is no reason not to „lighten“ Death Star.
2) You CAN'T scale powerplant like you would scale eggs.

1. Prove that they were using some physics violating technique or you're grasping, once again, at straws.
2. Actually, with what you claim is a fusion reactor, the reactor will get MORE efficient at ISD sizes than Death Star sizes, meaning that the ISD figure scaled down will get higher.

It can help.

You know that your argument is not doing well when you have responses like this. It can help...with a few hundred meters per hour. 64 km/s^2 is several orders of magnitude faster in acceleration, meaning that 99.99999% of it would be coming from the Death Star's own power.

With what? And how you prove it was stationary when it exited hyperspace?

Because it was not stated or implied, and the Rebel squadron was able to also circumnavigate the planet without this possibility, as was the Falcon when it first approached the Death Star.

As does yours.


Plus second or two while he gives order, and second or two while order is being inputed in controls.

Most ramming scenes take far longer than that, what's your point?

Maybe not damage ship per se, but we don't know anything about that nebula. It FU'ed subspace communications, which obviously isn't normal.

And how is it dangerous just because it's different?

You are lying. Look at your post I answered to:

(how you calculated the impact damage of a ship moving at FTL is beyond me)

Would you be so kind as to quote the FULL part of the post that's relevant?

Page? Only acceleration I remember for MF is 24 to 48 m/s^2. Compare that with 100 million m/s^2 acceleration of refit Enterprise in TMP.

If the Falcon's acceleration is 24 to 48 m/s^2, explain how:

1. In ANH, it approached the Death Star so that it came from a few pixels wide to taking up most of the screen within minutes

2. The Rebel squadron was able to circumnavigate Yavin, a gas giant, in minutes

3. The Falcon traveled to another star system in a reasonable amount of time

4. The Falcon escapes the Death Star in ROTJ to the Rebel fleet that was a small blip in the distance within seconds.

How far Bespin is? And I see that you are assuming that one of best galaxy's smugglers is so stupid that he does not have backup hyperdrive. After all, hyperdrive isn't Star Trek warp drive where you need nacelles (and even then, there is evidence that points to impulse drive being able to propel ships at warp speeds – Romulans in ENT did not have warp drive, yet were able to control interstellar empire.

But backup hyperdrives are only mentioned in C canon, which you do not accept!

What are you talking about?

See above.

You were talking about Federation fleet getting around Dominion one. Defiant by herself has no chance in hell of taking back DS9, which was original goal.

Ok, the Federation fleet...many of which survived a few hundred meters/second shoot through, where the dominion ships had several seconds to hit them.

They were hit repeatedly. Plus whyt makes you think Dominion fleet won't intercept them? Beacouse your entire premise is based on Dominion fleet just fiddling their fingers while Feds zip past them. And no, going around left flank, around right flank, over or under Dominion fleet makes no difference.

Given that the dominion fleet failed to take out a majority of Federation ships at supersonic speeds, why would they succeed at relativistic speeds, where they have a fraction of a second to do anything?

WTF are you talking about? ZIPPING THROUGHT WORMHOLE AT WARP SPEED.

Since when is it warp speed?

[Picard]

It is Continuity Canon. How long will you wish to keep this up?

Continuity Canon does not exist. It is just merchandizing trick, disproved by Lucas, who, unlike Rodenberry (who is dead), still holds ALL rights to Star Wars AND rights to say what is canon and what not.

I assume that you left out a negative by accident; we don't see that because the camera is only on the ISD vaping asteroids for a few seconds, and they were in the belt for at least a day.

Entire day gives around 1-gigaton shields.

Where did you come up with these arbitrary sizes, have you ever considered that there are two variables in kinetic energy?

And where we saw these uber-large uber-fast asteroids that you claim? Most of asteroids we see move at few tens of meters per second; some move even slower.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rnyWNoF ... re=related

See above.

You too.

I have official sources backing me up, and the movies do not contradict it because we do not see the ISD's during the whole day.

Official =/= canon.

Mostly stationary? You're kidding me, right?

Key words being „mostly“ and „slow moving“.

Red herring. What's your point?

Point was that field played no role in Vader's decision to call Bounty Hunters onboard his ship.

With the borg, what logistics? / Does it take resources from the borg to travel to Federation space?

You want to say that Borg do not need fuel to power their ships, or maintenance for drones? Or how about fact that in both cases cube was stopped by almost divine intervention? One cube was enough to assimilate Earth under normal circumstances. Why to redirect ships from other, maybe even more important tasks, to assimilate single planet in middle of hostile teritorry?

Except that one obviously was not enough for the job.

Lets just say that you fire one bullet at enemy, and bullet misfires. Would you immediately drop gun and take RPG instead? Or maybe, with your logic, a nuclear warhead?

The first time it would be understandable for them to only send one cube.

Which was only stopped by literally guerilla-type tactics. Or does the fact that US troops cannot counter Talibans suddenly mean they are incompetent?

The second time, perhaps they did have a premise in that the first time was a fluke.

Nice of you to finally start thinking logically.

However, the fact that the Federation still survives into the 31st century implies that the borg either gave up on the Federation, or sent an attack fleet again...consisting of only one cube or a few. The borg have no known threats other than species 8472; their other cubes can't be doing much, why not send one hundred to storm the capital and assimilate Earth?

Forgot Endgame? Do Borg even exist by then? Number of things could have happened – even if they are not destroyed in Endgame, what prevents Federation from repeating same tactics in, say, 26th century? Or even later 24th or 25th century? So stop asking questions there is no definite answer to.

Which refutes your entire claim. So explain to be how you expect a star destroyer to take out underground mines and mineral deposits using megaton airbursts.

Megaton shot fired at entrance of mine will collapse entrance. And who mentioned megaton airburst?. Plus, you forget that Base Delta Zero is not canon, and we are not in BDZ thread.

Except that the same source mentions deep planetary shelters, meaning that:

1. Star Wars has the technology to build durable shelters deep inside a planet

2. Such shelters are considered necessary to survive a BDZ, not, as your source suggests, hiding a few hundred meters underground.

Deep planetary shelter might as well be few hundred meters underground.

And in this part of the post, we are referring to BDZ, which is not mentioned in G canon either, but since we are discussing it, we need to include the EU, or the discussion is meaningless.

Which means that discussion about BDZ is meaningless.

Then explain the Dankayo incident, where somebody in a deep planetary shelter survives, but was fearing for his life. Why would he fear for his life if a base delta was a few airbursts over major cities?

Maybe beacouse he is civilian and doesn't know what exactly Imperials can do? Or you think that you would not be afraid from hearing bombs go off right above your head, even in relatively safe shelter like underground tunnels?

You're goalpost shifting. This is what you said:

„Natural resources“ by your wanktastic definition, where every speck of dirt is strategically important natural resource.

Are you postulating that a mine is a natural resource,

Mine is source of natural resource. Or you forgot meaning of „figurative alk“? Or fact that we are arguing about non-canon now?

you were still debating the BDZ example with me.

Beacouse you insisted on it. I said you that Base Delta Zero is non canon. And besides, I saw what you were doing in your discussion with Darkstar. – you were trying to refute canon with non-canon examples. Speaking of consistency...

Nowhere do G or T canon mention Base Delta Zero, and nowhere is it contradicted.

As I said, Base Delta Zero is not canon. But firepower Saxonities derive from it is contradicted by examples from canon.

Then explain how the Death Star expended 2e29 joules per second to circumnavigate a gas giant in 30 minutes.

Mass lightening, maybe?

You mean the joint section of an unshielded ISD in space is comparable to a fortified, probably shielded Rebel base?

That same ISD was destroyed by colissions with asteroids later, as novelization specifies. And besides, if it had teraton-range HTL's, waste heat would destroy it.

„Citation needed“

RotS novelization. Durasteel melts in lava – we see it in movie too, but only novelization specifies that TF base is made out of (dura)steel.

Go search up burden of proof, and come back and apologize for your dishonest fallacy, or prove to me that you are not Osama Bin Laden.

STFU. You are last person on board who should be teaching anyone on „dishonest fallacies“, seeing as you are full of them – first lying so as to get EU into debate, then...

No, WE KNOW FROM CANON THAT ISD CANNOT REMOVE ATMOSPHERE BY DET. Therefore, chain reaction / NDF is needed. Or you will argue that non-canon overrules canon?

YOU decided to refute one of my statements in the Base Delta Zero thread. Don't try and twist the story so that I somehow drew you into this.

WE ARE NOT ON BASE DELTA ZERO THREAD ANYMORE, MR. BULLSHITTER. YOU LIED IN ORDER TO GET YOUR BELOVED EU WANK IN DISCUSSION, AND I IGNORED IT. Seriously, next time I will simply ignore ANY EU examples you bring up if you continue to ignore canon.

PROVE IT.

EU has to be in line with canon, not the opposite.

And if this is true, why did you bring up the Dankayo quote?

Base partially survived.

Besides, if Star Wars has technobabble weapons that can tear the atmosphere off of worlds, don't you think that the Federation is kind of screwed, and that its planets will be uninhabited within days of a conflict?

What about Star Trek having planetary shields? Or what about Klingon Bird of Prey destroying all life on planet via chain reaction in „The Chase“, down to mollecules?

Because you used this quote as evidence? Why did you use the quote as evidence, only to turn around and claim that it is not valid evidence as soon as it is shown that the quote goes against your side?

It is matter of going against CANON. You do not accept canon evidence, so I tried to find EU evidence that is in line with canon.

Because a survivor in a deep planetary shelter was genuinely afraid of his life under a base delta zero.

Ah, yes. And still other parts of EU show turbolasers in sub-kiloton to kiloton range. And besides, he WAS alive – I had impression that Wanktonian BDZ would take care of even such shelters?

Several sources show that base delta zeros are intended to kill everyone; this would include people underground.

People underground who, somehow, survive.

Are you honestly claiming that "removing it from the face of planet" is somehow in contradiction with melting stone?

Yes, beacouse strong airburst will achieve same effect.

Are you honestly claiming that megaton level nukes can destroy cities?

Towns, not cities.

Megaton level nukes can devastate cities, they cannot "remove it from the face of the planet".

As above.

Besides:



That is part of Hiroshima after kiloton range explosion. If that is NOT „removed from the face of the planet“, I don't know what is.

Then why doesn't any Star Wars author ever do this again or before?

You have proof? To me it looks like your knowledge of Star Wars is limited to hearsay from SDN-ers and few EU books.

Do any of these factor apply in a developed Star Wars planet?

Quote was intended for people on Earth; therefore, it is in reference to Earth town.

Plus, we only see Tatooine, Coruscant, and Naboo. Both Naboo and Tatooine use concrete in construction of buildings, so yes, „small towns“ should be built from concrete.

Why did he bother to calculate it, and not metal or other building materials, only to pull some random equation out of nowhere?

Beacouse Tatooine is only „small town“ that we know from canon.

You are either being dishonest, or simply forgetting context:

Latter. I don't have time nor will to pass throught entire posts every time I log in.

No, I am saying that the admiral did not sit down and calculate the kinetic energy that might impact the ISD fleet in the asteroid belt.

Which is about one gigaton per day. And if ISD's did have teraton-range shields, then even 10 gigatons per day would be unimportant.

Not in the movies, but the movies only show a few minutes of a scene that lasted for at least a day.

And movies are canon, unlike EU, so...

Which supports the idea that said tie fighters are cheap! Is this supposed to be a rebuttal?

Given that „durasteel“ is supposed to be wanktastically strong, yet very avaliable, and fact that TIE's certainly look like being made from metal, yes.

It seems as though you are happy to bring up quotes when you feel that they support you, only to dismiss them as contradictions when you realize that they support me.

Beacouse you have shown willingness to ignore canon in favor of EU. Plus, we don't know why atmosphere drifted away – it could be technobabble, since we know that Imperials sent transports to perform „mop-up“ operations and „search throught Dankayo's evenly cratered surface“, meaning that surface was not melted, as Saxtonian BDZ demands. So, you fail. But I really have no wish to debate you around material which is not canon either way.

"... to rendezvous at Dankayo and reduce the tiny base to molten slag. Even before the last of its atmosphere drifted away, before the dense clouds of atomized topsoil could begin to settle, Imperial transports Elusive and Timely, as well as a complement of TIE fighters, moved in to perform "mop-up" operations and a thorough search of Dankayo's now evenly-cratered surface."

"firestorm decimated all vegetation and animals and most of the sentient Caamasi", leading to ecological and climatological collapse: a lack of plant-life to convert oxygen or provide food killed off surviving animals, and "Immense clouds of soot and smoke" rendered the atmosphere toxic to most sentients, requiring "a breathing mask for any sustained activity". The lack of vegetation led to widespread erosion and dust-storms, and "even the oceans have become polluted from run-off".

Not to mention that infantry can carry out local Base Delta Zero.

"The First Sun is a repulsorlift infantry regiment designed primarily to run search-and-destroy missions, which he troops of the unit jocularly refer to as SLAMs (Search, Locate, Annihilate mission). Indeed, the regiment often undertakes missions with the same objective as the "Base Delta Zero" command: the elimination of all assets of production, including factories, land, mines, fisheries, droids, and sapient beings (particularly any witnesses that may have seen atrocities being commited)."

Red herring, answer the question. How did I twist the facts.

You ignore canon in favour of EU. You ignore parts of EU that do not fit you and twist them so as to conform to your image – I almost fell for it.

And as for how you twist facts – you really thing that destroying civilized world somehow requires melting of entire surface of planet. Why adjective „civilized“ if ISD can melt surface of any random ball of rocks and dirt?

Goalpost move. Your claim was that I misrepresented the quote, not that the quote is non canon.

And I answered it.

Prove it

Canon = 1.5 megaton HTL
Therefore = no atmosphere removal via DET

So if every random star destroyer has a superlaser, why is it never mentioned or shown?

More importantly, if every ISD had such a superlaser, even if it were a chain reaction weapon, would that not seal a win for Star Wars? Could an ISD fleet just pop up next to each major Federation planet and tear off its atmosphere?

Bullshit. It is about turbolasers and damn BDZ you bring up despite we left BDZ thread ages ago. I NEVER CLAIMED EVERY ISD HAS SUPERLASER.

We know that they can circumnavigate gas giants within minutes, which takes far more energy to do so.

Circumnavigate how? Plus Rebel display shows one thing, Tarkin's display shows another.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvc70ptopqw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIpjgF6S ... re=related

1. Not if said mines are shielded with jammers, stealth systems or just lots and lots of concrete.

And what about good ol' telescopes, or sending spies before invasion?

2. ...and?

And, why destroying underwater refineries or anything else underwater requires oceans to be removed?

In response to your own quote?

Due to your BS, and my lack of time to deal with it.

Civilized worlds would consist of deep planetary shelters, fortified bunkers, mines and other structures underground or within mountains, defensive forces and potentially theater or planetary shields.

Huh...? So, Tatooine and Naboo are not civilized worlds?

Except that ISD's do not have a neutronium hull; they have a neutronium alloy hull. What's so hard to understand?

And what is difference? Neutronium / neutronium alloy hull is used to „prove“ that ISD's are wanktastically strong, despite the fact that we see in canon it is not so.

But the rationalization is clearly jamming, the same rationalization for 10 km ranges in Star Trek that you use.

Except that in Star Trek, we have numerous examples of 100 000+ km combat. In Star Wars, ISD was missing a corvette barely few kilometers ahead, and we have NO examples of ligh-minute ranges ICS claims at all.

You could claim that ST shows 200,000 KM ranges; but surely those are in situations where jamming, your rationalization, is not used, otherwise why would they have such long ranges only then?

I'm glad you understand at least that.

Yes, and these are both impressive ranges. What about close Star Wars combat ranges?

6 000 kilometers is still less than 200 000 km shown in Star Trek canon.

Let's apply deductive reasoning. If the Enterprise could send specific coordinates to the neighboring ships without the jamming of the borg cube (which apparently extends out to 100,000+ km's) stopping it, why can it not send said coordinates to its photon torpedos and program them to hit the borg cube from BVR?

Do you know ANYTHING about jamming? Or how sensors work?

All of those are in small scale skirmishes. Therefore, for whatever reason:

For whatever reason I already gave.

2. Which supports my reductio ad absurdum assertion that a TF battleship's shields are invincible.

When challenged by 1 kiloton proton torpedoes, yes. But saying that TFBB shields are invincible to everything is logical fallacy.

3. And? He stated it in absolute, broad terms.

In context of attack. That is, no weapon carried by fighters can penetrate TFBB's shields.

But real life does not have any room for a "literary intent" method, unless if you think that all BS that is sprouted is actually true and fits with the authors of...real life.

So with your idea of literary intent, the Death Star unleashes over e44 joules of energy.

No, that is with YOUR idea of literaly event. YOU are one who inisists on using literary descriptions, despite the fact that they defy logic.

My bad; the battle in Best of Both Worlds, however, was stated to be a major setback and disaster for starfleet, meaning that the loss of <50 ships is significant.

It was disaster beacouse fleet in vicinity of Earth was massacred, without doing any damage at all to cube. With that, one sector was probably left defenseless for time being. BUT, it was NOT disaster in number of ships destroyed. Even if we take entire year to replace 39 destroyed ships, that is more than 3 000 ships, if we take average lifespan of 80 years – despite fact that newer ships probably have longer lifespan than Mirandas. SO low end of low end gives 3 000 capital ships in Starfleet. High end – assuming 100 year lifespan and „less than a year“ as being 6 months – gives 7 800 capital ships in the fleet. So with peacetime production Starfleet is able to build minimum of 40 ships a year.

Is this your explanation? That a volley of allegedly gigaton beams would be focused on San Francisco? Why, when one would totally destroy it? By your own claim, megaton level nukes are city busters, and you claim that the Breen assault force would focus potentially dozens or hundreds of photon torpedos on on city?

You craptastic politician. Forgot that Star Trek has something called... urm... „planetary shields“? Hello?

Launching a ground attack on an entire planet with a few ships just to cause damage is one of the most stupid tactics ST has come up with yet.

It is psychological warfare, soldier.

The context of the quote, mentioning and describing the stone?

Unusually dense stone of ancient temple. Itr does NOT state that all stones on that friggin' moon are super-dense.

Stupid appeal to ignorance; unless if there is proof of a conservation of energy violating technobabble that can convert matter in energy without antimatter you're wrong.

Read Darkstar's page on that matter. If it was antimatter, then superlaser would simply DRILL throught planet, and create supervolcano (maybe even without „super“ prefix). Or would simply convert entire planet into energy. It would NOT leave debris. Besides, entire hyperspace thing is technobabble; is it so hard to imagine it can be used as a weapon?

In reality, ST warfare is similar to age of sail warfare in tactics.

For reasons I already explained. And what about Return of the Sith or RotJ? Two textbook examples of Age of Sail warfare – thought latter begun at some 10 – 100 kilometers.







Or EU you are so fond of:

Blatant red herring; we were referring to your theory of close range combat to prevent borg adaptation.

And that one came into being beacouse you were insistant that close range battles with Borg somehow mean that Star Trek is incapable of long-range combat. Plus, I think that someone here already showed you long-range engagement with Voyager and small fleet.

Yet WW2 level targeting systems should still have been able to hit it.

Lucky shot, maybe. But you can't rely on lucky shots.

Red herring, reread what you missed.

I saw what you wrote. Torpedoes use same fuel for propulsion and for explosion.

And all 100,000 km+ showings for ST are presumably without jamming

Probably.

yet SW ships have jamming devices, so it's back to 10 km ranges.

Except that you have to prove that these jamming devices will work with Star Trek sensors. For all we know, Star Wars combat sensors are EM based.

The fleet was already engaging the cube before Picard returned to inform them of its weak spot.

Read what I wrote. They did not know that particular subsystem will destroy cube – Data himself said that system appears to be non-vital – but they DID know that Borg cube DOES have subsystems which can be destroyed, which is point you were trying to refute.

The explanation is that they were focusing their firepower to penetrate the hull, duh.

Which regenerates. Plus, why such pattern of penetration? If they were focusing on penetrating the hull, then why not to do it one side of cube by one side?

1. The Federation knew about

Except that they obviously knew.

2. Were within the capability to reach and damage

Disproven with movie itself.

3. Were relevant tactically; by your own claim, sensors were irrelevant at such close ranges.

Sensors are never irrelevant; also, ever heard of short-range sensors? And are you trying to say that weapons are somehow tactically irrelevant? Or that power relays are tactically irrelevant?

My entire point is that they cannot, which begs the question as to why the Federation would not worry, by your claim, about adapting to photon torpedos when they are easier to adapt to and more powerful.

So, if phaser rifle can change frequencies, why not mount similar device on torpedoes? And then launch them at slower speed to conserve energy for phasers and shields?

Are you trying to pull out more excuses out of nowhere? How is moving near the target supposed to help with jamming; why not close to the borg itself?

READ AGAIN. If enemy is jamming your sensors, you also want to jam his. So, more ships in smaller area = more intensive jamming. Plus we know from Voyager that ships can lend energy to one another.

If this actually is a relevant and effective tactic in ST, my point is proven.

Photon torpedoes can manouver, but disruptors and tractor beams are line-of-sight weaponry. So shut up if you don't understand what I am talking about. Or are you saying that turbolaser bolts can manouver?

How can you lend power, a measurement of energy/time? Presumably you mean energy, which propogates at C; or, for Star Trek, potentially faster, and would not require distances of a few hundred meters.

Yup.

Jamming that is also present with SW ships, but that you do not realize?

And they suddenly have subspace sensors and means to jam them? Last time I checked, Star Wars technology was mostly EM-based. Including sensors.

Semantics. If you can send specific coordinates of something, you can "mark" it too.

Do you know what „marking“ is?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_designator

Sending coordinates of target is one thing. Marking target is another.

You can put missile tubes inside, but the cube only seemed to have a single beam weapon that fired one at a time.

Proof? It used one weapon on Defiant. And Star Trek ships tend to fire one weapon while another recharges/reloads. Borg probably aren't any different.

So then why would they bother to target the cube sensors when, by this logic, you don't need sensors at close ranges?

Read what i posted, think about it and THEN reply. I never said that one doesn't need sensors at close range.

Under certain circumstances? Maybe. But not in a large battle against a force that can also jam.

Star Wars can jam subspace sensors? Doubtful.

The light minute range was hypothetical against a stationary target; what's your point?

My point is that Imperials don't have ability to engage at ranges that Star Wars non-canon gives them.

No, there are examples of solar system spanning ranges for SW, and, if you count superweapons, cross galaxy ranges.

Which are all non-canon.

And the long range ST showings are negated whenever there is jamming, by your own admission, and Star Wars by your own admission has jamming tech.

And can Star Wars jamming tech jam Star Trek sensors? We never heard of subspace in Star Wars, nor did we hear of hyperspace jamming and hyperspace sensors, in case that hyperspace is also subspace.

Why not pump out 300 torpedos at long range?

Beacouse firing at longer range requires more energy? If you want to fire few hundred kilogram torpedo at long range, with speed that allows you to hit enemy in any reasonable time; e.g., so as not to expend any of reactants on board torpedo on manouvering and acceleration, you have to expend several gigatons of energy per torpedo. Mass lightening could drop it to several hundred megatons per torpedo at most.

How can guided missiles be jammed, if they are merely following a heat source?

Flares? Maybe some plasma or antimatter-based trick?

And if the borg cube does not alter its course, guided missiles aren't even needed.

And if said missiles are not shielded, cube simply shoots them down. Or changes course.

So since we never see Luke go to the bathroom, we shall assume that he doesn't?

Since we are not talking about him going to bathroom, but rather about starships shooting at each other... besides, we know that he is human, and humans go to bathroom. So... thought I fail to see relevance in your post.

My point is that ST cannot take as many photon torps as SW can take turbos.

And it matters how? Age of sail ship can take more cannonballs than modern cruiser can take guided missiles. That makes modern cruiser inferior how?

By a bloodbath it would have been a complete, 99% casualty slaughter, but it was not.

Federation fleet still lost good deal of ships. Plus you forget that there are things such as damage control, structural fields and shields.

No, Grevious ambushed Coruscant and sent down a large invasion force, the real objective being to capture Palpatine.

Yet we see weapons mounted at both CIS and Republic fleets that are clearly intended for age-of-sail type combat.

Slow? Slow???

Slow. Sloooow. Ever watched TESB? I think never.

Yep, a "slow" fleet could totally fly out from behind a planet to right behind a fleet so fast that they only notice it when they're already surrounding them. And the wording shows quite clearly that the fleet was moving with sublight engines, not using hyperjumps.

Contradicted by movie, by the way. They did not form two „pincers“, and could have as well jumped into place. Or maybe were there from beginning.

Please elaborate on its existence, and what Wounded describes the jammers as doing.

In Wounded Cardassian transport uses high-powered subspace field to hide contents of its cargo bays.

At low rates, yes, but the Federation fighters were still surviving in vast numbers.

If 50% is „vast numbers“...

At low rates, yes, but the Federation fighters were still surviving in vast numbers.

Or micro-torpedoes.

What's more, Sisko explicitly ordered them to use "full impulse"...and their speeds were a few hundred meters/second.

I just watched scene, and he only told Galaxy and cruiser wings to „drop to half impulse“. We don't know what happened between that and fighters engaging. Plus, racing a slalom throught enemy fleet at full impulse is sure way to get yourself killed. Or you think they were kamikazes of sorts?

...shipboard phasers are not hundreds of megatons. Prove it.

They are. Torpedoes are in low gigatons, and phasers seem to be around ½ to 1/5th of torpedo yield. So yes, phasers are pretty much in hundreds of megatons.

The different reality's diverging point was Nero arriving; are you claiming that Nero arriving magically decreases the firepower of a ship that was from the original timelineby several orders of magnitude?

Have we seen these ships fire against ANYTHING quantifiable?

Explain then, why Spock's ship had sub kiloton phaser cannons.

Proof?

We see an object moving at a few hundred meter/second, and you claim that the Voyager at full acceleration would have cause the object "have hit anyway"?

They wouldn't be trying to board ship with it if it couldn't match Voyager's acceleration.

Which puts to doubt your claim that the torpedos do not accelerate on their own power.

And lowering yield in process? You really have way for „logic“...

Given that many Federation ships including the Defiant survived at a few hundred meters/second pass through, why do you think that they were suddenly get intercepted easily at near light speed, where the dominion ships would have perhaps a fraction of a blink of an eye to stop them?

Jem'Hadar aren't above killing themselves to prove the point, so they would have either intercepted and shot down or rammed fleet, ship-by-ship. Plus, Star Trek ships have sensors with ranges measured in light hours - Silicon Avatar as example.

The Defiant was not intercepted when it moved a few hundred meters/second, and yet you claim that it will at relevavistic speeds?

IT WAS intercepted, and chased. And had not Klingons saved the day, she would probably have been destroyed.

Hey, more grasping at straws! Maybe Riker's assessment of blowing up the asteroid was due to being wanked up by Federation propoganda (and don't claim that it doesn't exist)!

We saw Riker's assesment ON SCREEN. Meanwhile, all you are trying to do with BDZ is to push non-canon and replace canon with it.

Your very first quote in this thread was in regards to BDZ, and you suddenly drop it midway through as soon as your own quote is turned against you.

Very funny. We left thread beacouse we were derailing it. So, no, it is not about BDZ.

Vaporizing a small town's upper limit is difficult to quantify due to the ambiguous definition of "small town", the definition of figurative vaporization and other factors that you fail to factor.

Small town – US small town, as it is intended to US audience
vaporization – as commonly used. Meaning this:

1. Prove that they were using some physics violating technique or you're grasping, once again, at straws.

They use fusion for power production. ML is only logical explanation.

2. Actually, with what you claim is a fusion reactor, the reactor will get MORE efficient at ISD sizes than Death Star sizes, meaning that the ISD figure scaled down will get higher.

Fusion power scales as the fourth power of the B (magnetic) field and the cube of the size. Meaning that you are bullshitting.

with a few hundred meters per hour. 64 km/s^2 is several orders of magnitude faster in acceleration, meaning that 99.99999% of it would be coming from the Death Star's own power.

Except that Federation ships have shown acceleration of 362 962 963 km/h^2. Calculate how much energy is required for that without mass lightening. That is 100 823 045.3 m/s^2.
F = ma, so for Intrepid class F = 7.0576 x 10e16 N. J = N x m, so to accelerate by that every 50.4 thousand kilometers (timeframe of 1 second), you need 3.557 x 10e24 W; that is 3.56 x 10e12 TW, or 3.6 billion petawatts. Which is ~38 % of power production given to Imperial Star Destroyer by ICS. And there are some people here who do not agree with me on mass lightening. BTW, if we take DS9 technical manual and decide to cherry pick like you do – taking just mass of ship (4 500 000 metric tons) and using calculated acceleration – we get F = 4.537 x 10e17 N, giving us power production of 2.287 x 10e25 W. For comparation, non-canon CCS lists ISD's peak power output as 9.28 x 10e24 W. Whoops. What usage of non-canon information as well as bit of cherry picking can do.

Because it was not stated or implied, and the Rebel squadron was able to also circumnavigate the planet without this possibility, as was the Falcon when it first approached the Death Star.

And I just watched it. They did not circumnavigate planet completely – Rebel display was quite off when compared to one on Death Star.

Plus:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiS-3-nD ... re=related

At one minute – „accelerate to attack speed“. Not quite large speed.

Most ramming scenes take far longer than that, what's your point?

I don't remember any. Plus, I was under impression that was about Nemesis.

And how is it dangerous just because it's different?

How is atomic bomb dangerous beacouse it is different than TNT? It does thing that are NOT NORMAL.

Would you be so kind as to quote the FULL part of the post that's relevant?

I quoted PART OF POST THAT IS RELEVANT. YOU ASKED ME THIS:

What do warp impacts have to do with sublight speeds?

So I ANSWERED IT.

1. In ANH, it approached the Death Star so that it came from a few pixels wide to taking up most of the screen within minutes

Within minutes.

2. The Rebel squadron was able to circumnavigate Yavin, a gas giant, in minutes

It might have been half an hour, or hours. And Death Star display shows that there was no circumnavigation.

3. The Falcon traveled to another star system in a reasonable amount of time

Backup hyperdrive, maybe? Beacouse, you know, there is reason why „slower than light“ engines are called that way.

4. The Falcon escapes the Death Star in ROTJ to the Rebel fleet that was a small blip in the distance within seconds.

Small blip? And any proof it was in seconds? It might have been minutes.

If the Falcon's acceleration is 24 to 48 m/s^2, explain how:

1. In ANH, it approached the Death Star so that it came from a few pixels wide to taking up most of the screen within minutes

2. The Rebel squadron was able to circumnavigate Yavin, a gas giant, in minutes

3. The Falcon traveled to another star system in a reasonable amount of time

4. The Falcon escapes the Death Star in ROTJ to the Rebel fleet that was a small blip in the distance within seconds.

1) Within MINUTES. It is small ship.
2) Circumnavigate, no. We see on Death Star's displays they did not have to circumnavigate half of planet, but rather small portion of it. Besides, they could have jumped.
3) backup hyperdrive. Or you think that 8 years to Alpha Centauri in .5c capable ship is reasonable?
4) there is cut between scenes. How you know it was within seconds?

But backup hyperdrives are only mentioned in C canon, which you do not accept!

No, but I DO accept pure logic.

See above.

What above? That they can't go past ships in wormhole or what?

Ok, the Federation fleet...many of which survived a few hundred meters/second shoot through, where the dominion ships had several seconds to hit them.

Shields, anyone?

Given that the dominion fleet failed to take out a majority of Federation ships at supersonic speeds, why would they succeed at relativistic speeds, where they have a fraction of a second to do anything?

Collisions? Jem'Hadar are crazy enough to slam into enemy ship if situation requires it. And warp core explosion + possibly loaded photon torpedoes = more than shields of similarly-sized or even larger ship can take.

Since when is it warp speed?

Look 5-6 past posts.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Some points before I get the chance to respond:

1. You originally brought up dankayo, yet now you claim that it is in contradiction with canon. If it was in contradiction with canon, why did you bring it up? Your justification is that we were discussing bdz; but when we were, you were still pulling the "it violates canon" argument (which is a reasonable argument), but then why use a quote that you knew was invalid? You either:

a) dishonestly used a quote you knew to be invalid.

b) originally thought the quote to be valid, until I pointed out the part about the 3 ISD's blowing the atmosphere off of Dankayo, in which case you change your mind conveniently when the quote no longer supports you. The fact that when you posted the quote again, you only choose to bold the parts that support you and not the part that mentions the atmosphere blown off is an example of this.

2. You consistently loop the argument in circles, which may be a honest mistake in you forgetting the context of sections of my post that are responding to. In the breen argument, I already explained why planetary shields do not adequately reconcile your claim of gigaton torpedos and the comparatively low amount of damage done in the assault, several posts back. You are bringing up the same point again.

3. The quote that you brought up:

Base Delta Zero is the Imperial code order to destroy all population centres and resources, including industry, natural resources and cities.

Specifically differentiates between industry AND natural resources. Mines, which you for some reason associate as interchangeable with natural resources, is industry, which is explicitly stated as a separate thing from the author's correct interpretation of natural resources.

4. You conceded that the dankayo quote's blowing away the atmosphere feat is for the entire planet (only the base would violate thermodynamics and would not make sense, logically or scientifically), and your last rebuttal was:

So we have contradiction with canon.

meaning that you shifted your stance from trying to argue the dankayo quote to discrediting it as contradicting canon. Suddenly, you go BACK to your old stance which I have already debunked (notice the hypocrisy?), as if hoping that I'd forget about the fact that we already discussed this, and your last rebuttal on the issue was to try and dismiss the quote. Suddenly you shift back to defending it.

Is dankayo in your eyes consistent or inconsistent with canon? On one hand, the fact that you brought the quote up, so you were under the impression that it is in agreement with canon but non-canon itself. Suddenly, you shift to the quote of you above, dismissing the quote, but then you go back to supporting it.

5. You think that the Falcon approaching the Death Star so that it goes from a few pixels wide to the entire screen is somehow not impressive if it's in minutes, despite the fact that such a feat would require speeds in excess of 110 km/second.

6. You, either by not watching the scene or simply lying, claim that there was a scene cut in the Falcon escaping the Death Star in ROTJ, when we see them flying out of the battlestation in real time.

7. You claim that the Falcon has a backup hyperdrive, which would not explain why Han Solo was so freaked out when the hyperdrive broke down, and tried to risk everyone's lives by going down in the middle of fire to fix it, when he could have just popped up the backup hyperdrive.

8. Overall, there are times when you blatantly miss the point or context of my statements, or otherwise don't understand them at all; my claim about turbolaser: shield vs torpedo:shield ratios went over your head.

[Picard]

1. Your interpretation of it is contradiction with canon. I know that you don't accept canon evidence, so I made mistake of trying to find something in EU that is NOT contradicted by canon, despite having no first-hand sources nor interest in EU to support it. Its simle as that.

2. I have no time to re-read every single word in every single post we made until now. I only respond to what is written in last post.

3. and 4. You knew that I do not accept EU, yet you constantly brought up EU (of which I have no interest nor knowledge aside from what I get from various 3rd hand sources), as if feats in EU somehow disprove canon evidence. That much about dishonesty. ANd let me remind you that YOU insisted that, since we came from EU thread, EU is automatically to be used here.

5. Apollo 11 displayed speeds of 25 000 miles per hour. That is 11 km/s, so I'm not surprised by Star Wars having 10 times faster ships. But Star Trek ships display speeds of 200 000 kilometers per second; so its all about context.

6. I watched the scene. We see falcon flying from Death Star vent, or whatever it is, then we have cut and it is shown going towards the fleet. Maximum speed that we can get from that scene is around 80 000 meters per second.

7. So they are idiots not to mount backup hyperdrive ;-). Only OTHER option is that Hoth and Bespin are in dual system, or maybe in SAME system, but both Hoth and Bespin are actually referred to as systems, with planets "Hoth 6" and Lando's gas giant. So backup hyperdrive is best theory, since it probably doesn't offer anywhere near performance of main hyperdrive.

8. Beacouse that claim is irrelevant; photon torpedoes are way more powerful than turbolasers.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Continuity Canon does not exist. It is just merchandizing trick, disproved by Lucas, who, unlike Rodenberry (who is dead), still holds ALL rights to Star Wars AND rights to say what is canon and what not.

If Continuity Canon does not exist, why is it still up on the official Star Wars website? Stop dismissing evidence that you find inconvenient.

Entire day gives around 1-gigaton shields.

Based on your highly conservative calculations - where, by the way, did you find the footage of asteroid collisions? Did you use a dvd?

You also neglect the difference physical impacts and energy based weapons.

And where we saw these uber-large uber-fast asteroids that you claim? Most of asteroids we see move at few tens of meters per second; some move even slower.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rnyWNoF ... re=related

??? The asteroids were crossing the hull of the Falcon in a fraction of a second; they were moving at supersonic speeds.

You too.

Official =/= canon.

Would you care to search up the definition of official?

Key words being „mostly“ and „slow moving“.

No, you are making the false claim that the asteroids in the field were slow moving, when they were moving with at least supersonic speeds.

Point was that field played no role in Vader's decision to call Bounty Hunters onboard his ship.

So then, in that case, if there were no asteroid field, why did the fleet not simply send tie fighters to chase after the Falcon?

You want to say that Borg do not need fuel to power their ships,

How much fuel would be needed for, say, ten borg cubes to jump to Earth? What would the vast fuel storages on each cube be used for otherwise? Are they just sitting around doing nothing?

or maintenance for drones?

Borg drones require minimal maintenance.

Or how about fact that in both cases cube was stopped by almost divine intervention? One cube was enough to assimilate Earth under normal circumstances. Why to redirect ships from other, maybe even more important tasks, to assimilate single planet in middle of hostile teritorry?

Because after "divine intervention" happens two times in a row, the third time you should bring in more to stop another convenient plot device from occurring. This is basic logic.

Lets just say that you fire one bullet at enemy, and bullet misfires. Would you immediately drop gun and take RPG instead? Or maybe, with your logic, a nuclear warhead?

Stupid analogy. A better analogy is that if you sent a single abrams tank to quell a rebellion, and the rebels trick the tank crew into driving into a deep ditch and capture it, is your solution to dismiss it as a fluke and to send the very same force a second time.

Which was only stopped by literally guerilla-type tactics. Or does the fact that US troops cannot counter Talibans suddenly mean they are incompetent?

US troops can and have countered insurgent forces, and if X number of troops prove insufficient for the job, they send in more. What is so hard about this to understand?

Nice of you to finally start thinking logically.


Forgot Endgame? Do Borg even exist by then? Number of things could have happened – even if they are not destroyed in Endgame, what prevents Federation from repeating same tactics in, say, 26th century? Or even later 24th or 25th century? So stop asking questions there is no definite answer to.

After their second incursion attempt failed, the borg logically would have simply diverted a fleet of one hundred cubes to storm Earth.

Megaton shot fired at entrance of mine will collapse entrance.

Because surely a space age society lacks the capability of repopening the entrance, or having multiple entrances.

And who mentioned megaton airburst?.

Your link to your blog site? Not to mention that megaton airbursts cannot destroy military structures or even durable civilian structures. Do you honestly think that an airburst will destroy all "natural resources", a term of which is explicitly mentioned separately from the industry needed to run it such as mines (meaning that both the mines AND the deposits are destroyed)? A megaton airburst would not be guaranteed to kill somebody in a basement!

Plus, you forget that Base Delta Zero is not canon, and we are not in BDZ thread.

If you did not wish to discuss BDZ, you should not have included discussions from it in your opening post. You are conveniently attempting to drop out of the debate halfway through the thread.

Deep planetary shelter might as well be few hundred meters underground.

Are you honestly reading what you type, Picard? Do you think that a "deep planetary shelter" is only a few hundred meters underground, which is less than 0.0001% of the depth of the upper mantle? You also fail to realize that megaton airbursts would fail to affect a shelter a few hundred meters underground, and the e24 joule calculation is estimating 1 meter of the surface being melted!

Which means that discussion about BDZ is meaningless.

Which surely explains why you felt so inclined to include it in your blog, in your opening post and in the base delta zero thread.

Maybe beacouse he is civilian and doesn't know what exactly Imperials can do? Or you think that you would not be afraid from hearing bombs go off right above your head, even in relatively safe shelter like underground tunnels?

The survivor was an Alliance agent. He is by no means and ordinary civilian.

„Natural resources“ by your wanktastic definition, where every speck of dirt is strategically important natural resource.

Again, goalpost shifting. You stated that base delta zero's do not destroy natural resources in direct violation to your quote. If you really meant my definition of natural resources, you should have specified so. Otherwise, you look like you're backtracking to cover your tracks.

Mine is source of natural resource. Or you forgot meaning of „figurative alk“? Or fact that we are arguing about non-canon now?

natural resources AND industry. If the author included mines and harvesting agents for such natural resources as natural resources, why include industry in the statement too?

Beacouse you insisted on it. I said you that Base Delta Zero is non canon. And besides, I saw what you were doing in your discussion with Darkstar. – you were trying to refute canon with non-canon examples. Speaking of consistency...

Nowhere did I try and refute canon with non canon. Once again, you are making BS up out of your mind.

As I said, Base Delta Zero is not canon. But firepower Saxonities derive from it is contradicted by examples from canon.

The canon films support Saxtonite calculations within one or two orders of magnitude! The Death Star DET theory just happens to support Saxtonite calculations within a small margin of error, as does the Death Star's circumnavigation of Yavin.

Mass lightening, maybe?

See? I provide canon evidence supporting my claims, and your only rebuttal is to say that "maybe" it's some made up technobabble that is never mentioned in Star Wars, but that you pull out of your butt because you cannot just admit that my calculations for the circumnavigation of Yavin are based on solid interpretation of the scene.

That same ISD was destroyed by colissions with asteroids later, as novelization specifies. And besides, if it had teraton-range HTL's, waste heat would destroy it.

An unshielded ISD was hit, yes. What's your point?

RotS novelization. Durasteel melts in lava – we see it in movie too, but only novelization specifies that TF base is made out of (dura)steel.

Do we know what grade durasteel it was? Or what temperature the lava was?

STFU. You are last person on board who should be teaching anyone on „dishonest fallacies“, seeing as you are full of them – first lying so as to get EU into debate, then...

Stop it with the stupid ad hominems. You make a texbook example of the burden of proof fallacy. You literally ask me to prove that something is "not" true.

No, WE KNOW FROM CANON THAT ISD CANNOT REMOVE ATMOSPHERE BY DET. Therefore, chain reaction / NDF is needed. Or you will argue that non-canon overrules canon?

No, this is stupid circular reasoning. You continue to use your own conclusion as evidence for your premise, which you in turn use as evidence for your conclusion.

You think that an ISD cannot remove an atmosphere by DET, when the Death Star can scatter a planet and overcome GBE (you know, the defined, scientifically accurate DET "theory", which is really the laws of thermodynamics?) and circumnavigate gas giants in minutes?

And where do we ever see evidence in your precious canon where an ISD cannot remove an atmopshere by DET? Do we ever see an upper limit to the firepower of turbolasers? No, so then what's your point?

WE ARE NOT ON BASE DELTA ZERO THREAD ANYMORE, MR. BULLSHITTER. YOU LIED IN ORDER TO GET YOUR BELOVED EU WANK IN DISCUSSION, AND I IGNORED IT. Seriously, next time I will simply ignore ANY EU examples you bring up if you continue to ignore canon.

"ignore canon"? Whenever I ask you to support your bullshit claim that base delta zero is in contradiction of canon, you bring up the same arguments:

1. The asteroid collision scene, because you think that the durability of the bridge tower of an unshielded ISD is relevant to the firepower of heavy turbolasers.

2. That TCW episode involving asteroids, yet you still fail to quantify the size and density of the asteroid field, or at least to give reasonable estimates, footage, screenshots, etc.

3. Vaporizing a small town, yet your calculations are totally minimalist; you assume everything that would lower the energy needed (US size town, random calculation darkstar pulled, figurative vaporization, heavy turbolasers, wooden structures)

EU has to be in line with canon, not the opposite.

And this is supposed to qualify as proof instead of a restatement of the obvious how?

Base partially survived.

The base did, but the atmosphere, a completely quantifiable target, did not.

What about Star Trek having planetary shields?

You mean planetary shields that are rarely, if ever, shown?

And even if Earth does have a planetary shield, it does not explain away the issue. The breens did damage Earth, but slightly, meaning that; and I have already explained this:

1. There was bleed through damage

or

2. The shield eventually fell

Both are faulty:

1. In this case, why would only San Fransico be affected? Why would 99.99% of the blast be conveniently diverted, and why would the breen forces not take advantage of this bleed through to saturate the entire planet surface?

Or what about Klingon Bird of Prey destroying all life on planet via chain reaction in „The Chase“, down to mollecules?

And star destroyers can destroy all life using raw energy:

"Cloaked Star Destroyer!" Han snapped back, twisting the helm yoke viciously, the whole plan suddenly coming clear. "That battle back there over Bothawui- all those ships beating each other into rubble- with a Star Destroyer waiting hidden here, ready to finish them all off and maybe burn Bothawui in the bargain. No survivors, no witnesses, only a battle everyone in the New Republic would blame everyone else for." VOTF p.617

"The preliminary [target] list has been filed," Oissan said, sounding a bit flustered. "We were expecting to have more time to complete it."
"Well, you didn't, did you?" Nalgol bit out, thoroughly disgusted. First the strike team, now Oissan. "Get back to work. We still have an hour or two before the battle out there winds down to where we'll be entering it." VOTF p.651

It is matter of going against CANON. You do not accept canon evidence, so I tried to find EU evidence that is in line with canon.

But you just claim that Dankayo is NOT in line with canon!, even though you brought it up to (quoting you) "be in line with canon"). So:

You make the foolish strawman that I do not accept canon (when among my main arguments remains the circumnavigation of Yavin, which is G canon, and your response to CANON is to use a NON CANON, not even mentioned in any C canon, made up mass lightning which is literally N canon).

You therefore decide to find EU quotes that are

in line with canon

Your choice? Among this is dankayo.

Yet then you dismiss dankayo as in contradiction with canon.

What?

Ah, yes. And still other parts of EU show turbolasers in sub-kiloton to kiloton range. And besides, he WAS alive – I had impression that Wanktonian BDZ would take care of even such shelters?

Red herring. Your megaton airbust theory would be completely ineffective against military structures, mines, heavy civilian structures, deep basements, fisheries or deep planetary shelters.

People underground who, somehow, survive.

Sometimes, under fortified shelters, yes. But by your airburst idea, a significant number of people on the surface would survive if they were inside a concrete building!

Yes, beacouse strong airburst will achieve same effect.

That's not what a contradiction means. Go search up the definition.

Towns, not cities.

No, you stated that megaton level nukes are city killers.

As above.

Besides:



That is part of Hiroshima after kiloton range explosion. If that is NOT „removed from the face of the planet“, I don't know what is.

There were still structure left standing after the detonation.

You have proof? To me it looks like your knowledge of Star Wars is limited to hearsay from SDN-ers and few EU books.

Once again, your understanding of Burden of Proof fails.

Quote was intended for people on Earth; therefore, it is in reference to Earth town.

So if TM refers to the Enterprise as, for example, the finest ship in the fleet, are you going to assume that it is in reference to the US navy?

Or when Luke is described as perhaps the most skilled swordsman ever, the author is referring to real life?

Show me ONE example where the author EVER mentions real life.

Beacouse Tatooine is only „small town“ that we know from canon.

So because it's the only one we see, all other small towns must be like that? Even though a freaking desert town is obviously going to try and minimize size for reasons that hopefully you can understand?

Latter. I don't have time nor will to pass throught entire posts every time I log in.

So then go back and respond to the context!

Which is about one gigaton per day. And if ISD's did have teraton-range shields, then even 10 gigatons per day would be unimportant.

Irrelevant, as a gigaton per day is a low end lower limit, and is far in excess of anything that the Enterprise can handle. Or was it being harmed by a large chemical explosion a fluke?

And movies are canon, unlike EU, so...

Why don't you stop your foolish goalpost shifting?

Given that „durasteel“ is supposed to be wanktastically strong, yet very avaliable, and fact that TIE's certainly look like being made from metal, yes.

Durasteel on capital ships is very strong; how is this relevant to the titanium alloy hull used on tie fighters?

Beacouse you have shown willingness to ignore canon in favor of EU.

PROVE IT.

Plus, we don't know why atmosphere drifted away –

The basic laws of physics do.

it could be technobabble,

You, of course, can provide evidence for this other than your desperation to dismiss all solid evidence as a unknown technobabble you do not quantify or explain?

since we know that Imperials sent transports to perform „mop-up“ operations and „search throught Dankayo's evenly cratered surface“, meaning that surface was not melted, as Saxtonian BDZ demands. So, you fail. But I really have no wish to debate you around material which is not canon either way.

Nowhere is it stated that the ground is not melted.

"... to rendezvous at Dankayo and reduce the tiny base to molten slag. Even before the last of its atmosphere drifted away, before the dense clouds of atomized topsoil could begin to settle, Imperial transports Elusive and Timely, as well as a complement of TIE fighters, moved in to perform "mop-up" operations and a thorough search of Dankayo's now evenly-cratered surface."

Why do you bold the part about reducing a tiny base to slag, but neglect the part about the atmosphere drifting away?

"firestorm decimated all vegetation and animals and most of the sentient Caamasi", leading to ecological and climatological collapse: a lack of plant-life to convert oxygen or provide food killed off surviving animals, and "Immense clouds of soot and smoke" rendered the atmosphere toxic to most sentients, requiring "a breathing mask for any sustained activity". The lack of vegetation led to widespread erosion and dust-storms, and "even the oceans have become polluted from run-off".

The quote is self contradicting; how could blasts that merely create firestorms create immense clouds of soot and smoke that significantly affect the atmosphere and poison it?

Not to mention that infantry can carry out local Base Delta Zero.

And your point is what?

"The First Sun is a repulsorlift infantry regiment designed primarily to run search-and-destroy missions, which he troops of the unit jocularly refer to as SLAMs (Search, Locate, Annihilate mission). Indeed, the regiment often undertakes missions with the same objective as the "Base Delta Zero" command: the elimination of all assets of production, including factories, land, mines, fisheries, droids, and sapient beings (particularly any witnesses that may have seen atrocities being commited)."

Once again, what's your point?

You ignore canon in favour of EU. You ignore parts of EU that do not fit you and twist them so as to conform to your image – I almost fell for it.

1. Show me a single canon example that contradicts base delta zero

2. Show me a single example of me ignoring it.

And as for how you twist facts – you really thing that destroying civilized world somehow requires melting of entire surface of planet. Why adjective „civilized“ if ISD can melt surface of any random ball of rocks and dirt?

Because it is significantly more difficult to melt durasteel structures than it is to melt rock? Is this difficult to comprehend?

And I answered it.

No you did not. These one sentence, short evasion response do not make a good argument.

Canon = 1.5 megaton HTL
Therefore = no atmosphere removal via DET

Show me where darkstar got his imaginary equation that he pulls out of nowhere from.

Bullshit. It is about turbolasers and damn BDZ you bring up despite we left BDZ thread ages ago. I NEVER CLAIMED EVERY ISD HAS SUPERLASER.

Prove that ANY isd's other than ssd's have superlasers, or you're just making up stupid shit to counteract the mounting evidence conveniently supporting Saxtonite calculations within a few orders of magnitude.

Circumnavigate how? Plus Rebel display shows one thing, Tarkin's display shows another.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvc70ptopqw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIpjgF6S ... re=related

There is no contradiction. Just because darkstar says so, does not make it true.

And what about good ol' telescopes, or sending spies before invasion?

Is this the best excuse you've got? That you can use telescopes to locate things underground? Or send in spies to locate every single underground structure, hoping that not one happens to get caught?

And, why destroying underwater refineries or anything else underwater requires oceans to be removed?

Because they are spread out across the entire ocean, and many are underwater?

Due to your BS, and my lack of time to deal with it.

No, due to your own quote being proven to not support your made up airburst version of bdz.

Huh...? So, Tatooine and Naboo are not civilized worlds?

What's this supposed to mean?

And what is difference? Neutronium / neutronium alloy hull is used to „prove“ that ISD's are wanktastically strong, despite the fact that we see in canon it is not so.

This is a stupid strawman; I did not mention neutronium hulls, you did. You also got cause and effect wrong; nowhere do Saxton, Wong me or other pro Wars debaters use neutronium alloy hulls as proof of hull durability; Saxton and other Eu writers included it as an explanation for the super strong hulls, not the other way around.

Except that in Star Trek, we have numerous examples of 100 000+ km combat. In Star Wars, ISD was missing a corvette barely few kilometers ahead, and we have NO examples of ligh-minute ranges ICS claims at all.

Yet all those 100,000 km ranges obviously do not factor in your rationalization of jamming, so what's your point?

I'm glad you understand at least that.

So then the 100,000 km ranges are irrelevant, unless if there is a situation in which the Star Wars side's jammers are disabled.

6 000 kilometers is still less than 200 000 km shown in Star Trek canon.

And such ranges are only relevant, by your own admission, when jamming is off.

Do you know ANYTHING about jamming? Or how sensors work?

Ah, the classic tactic of making a rhetorical "do you know how these work?" in response to an assertion. Sure, why don't you explain to me how they work, and how this is relevant?

For whatever reason I already gave.

And all those reasons also apply to Star Wars, so your 200,000 Km ranges are useless and irrelevant!

When challenged by 1 kiloton proton torpedoes, yes. But saying that TFBB shields are invincible to everything is logical fallacy.

Too bad that the script says so, and you adhere to the script over visuals for some reason. Nute Gunray spoke in absolutes, and was not aware of what weapons the Naboo could have.

In context of attack. That is, no weapon carried by fighters can penetrate TFBB's shields.

That's not what the script says.

No, that is with YOUR idea of literaly event. YOU are one who inisists on using literary descriptions, despite the fact that they defy logic.

That's my point! If we see a borg cube pass right next to the Enterprise and Picard, for example, says that the cube is about 10,000 KM away, the literary description makes no sense.

It was disaster beacouse fleet in vicinity of Earth was massacred, without doing any damage at all to cube. With that, one sector was probably left defenseless for time being. BUT, it was NOT disaster in number of ships destroyed. Even if we take entire year to replace 39 destroyed ships, that is more than 3 000 ships, if we take average lifespan of 80 years – despite fact that newer ships probably have longer lifespan than Mirandas. SO low end of low end gives 3 000 capital ships in Starfleet. High end – assuming 100 year lifespan and „less than a year“ as being 6 months – gives 7 800 capital ships in the fleet. So with peacetime production Starfleet is able to build minimum of 40 ships a year.

None of these come close to matching Star Wars ship numbers.

You craptastic politician. Forgot that Star Trek has something called... urm... „planetary shields“? Hello?

I already responded to this several times, liar. You can dismiss this as you forgetting context, until you make stupid flames like calling me a craptastic politician, when the fault is really on YOU.

It is psychological warfare, soldier.

Psychological warfare only gets you so far. Just like how running into battle naked with stripes and spiked bats is not a good idea.

Unusually dense stone of ancient temple. Itr does NOT state that all stones on that friggin' moon are super-dense.

Nowhere did I state that. In fact, this idea point is a nitpick of yours.

Read Darkstar's page on that matter. If it was antimatter, then superlaser would simply DRILL throught planet, and create supervolcano (maybe even without „super“ prefix). Or would simply convert entire planet into energy. It would NOT leave debris. Besides, entire hyperspace thing is technobabble; is it so hard to imagine it can be used as a weapon?

Then:

1. Explain what the technobabble is, what it does, and roughly how

2. Explain how this technobabble explains all of the VFX effects used to discount the DET theory any better than the DET theory does

3. Make sure that this technobabble theory take less than e32 joules and is not in violation with the fundamental laws of physics.

For reasons I already explained. And what about Return of the Sith or RotJ? Two textbook examples of Age of Sail warfare – thought latter begun at some 10 – 100 kilometers.







Or EU you are so fond of:

As I have already explained, the ROTS opening scene is a surprise, act fast invasion fleet; of course they're going to have to move in close to land troops.

And that one came into being beacouse you were insistant that close range battles with Borg somehow mean that Star Trek is incapable of long-range combat. Plus, I think that someone here already showed you long-range engagement with Voyager and small fleet.

Oh, Star Trek may be capable of long range combat, but by your own admission it's only when jamming is not an issue. Star Wars ships do have jamming, so your examples of BVR ST combat are irrelevant.

Lucky shot, maybe. But you can't rely on lucky shots.

Lucky as in a decent few ships hit per ten seconds? Sure.

I saw what you wrote. Torpedoes use same fuel for propulsion and for explosion.

Citation needed.

Probably.

So then how are they relevant?

Except that you have to prove that these jamming devices will work with Star Trek sensors. For all we know, Star Wars combat sensors are EM based.

And for all we know, phaser NDF effects might be totally ineffective against SW shields. Stop making these unreasonable claims.

Read what I wrote. They did not know that particular subsystem will destroy cube – Data himself said that system appears to be non-vital – but they DID know that Borg cube DOES have subsystems which can be destroyed, which is point you were trying to refute.

Prove it.

Which regenerates. Plus, why such pattern of penetration? If they were focusing on penetrating the hull, then why not to do it one side of cube by one side?

What pattern of penetration? Federation combat tactics seem to preclude firepower concentration, given that age of sail like formations are still used.

Except that they obviously knew.

Prove it.

Disproven with movie itself.

So you disproved one of the prerequisites?

Sensors are never irrelevant; also, ever heard of short-range sensors? And are you trying to say that weapons are somehow tactically irrelevant? Or that power relays are tactically irrelevant?

Short-range sensors? Why weren't they jammed too? Weapons systems were relevant, of course, but were not successfully destroyed.

So, if phaser rifle can change frequencies, why not mount similar device on torpedoes? And then launch them at slower speed to conserve energy for phasers and shields?

You claimed that torpedos cannot do such a thing. Gosh, maybe the debate is getting too complex for you.

READ AGAIN. If enemy is jamming your sensors, you also want to jam his. So, more ships in smaller area = more intensive jamming. Plus we know from Voyager that ships can lend energy to one another.

Why do the ships need to be concentrated into a smaller area to increase jamming? Do you even understand what jamming is? Are you under the impression that jamming has some sort of density, and that 5 ships a kilometer away from each other produce more jamming than 5 ships spread out?

Photon torpedoes can manouver, but disruptors and tractor beams are line-of-sight weaponry. So shut up if you don't understand what I am talking about. Or are you saying that turbolaser bolts can manouver?

Space is 3-d.

Yup.

So why would one need to park one's ship within a few kilometers of another to exchange energy that propogates at C?

And they suddenly have subspace sensors and means to jam them? Last time I checked, Star Wars technology was mostly EM-based. Including sensors.

If all ST sensors are subspace, then are they blocked by things as simple as a ion storm?

Do you know what „marking“ is?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_designator

Sending coordinates of target is one thing. Marking target is another.

You do realize that a laser designator cannot be jammed, right? That marking a target with a laser or similar equivalent marker is not something you jam?

Proof? It used one weapon on Defiant. And Star Trek ships tend to fire one weapon while another recharges/reloads. Borg probably aren't any different.

Do you ever see more than one Federation ship being hit at a time?

Read what i posted, think about it and THEN reply. I never said that one doesn't need sensors at close range.

It is not needed at such short ranges. Plus, do you know how small these subsystems are o make such statements? And what about Imperials failing to hit Millenium Falcon? Or about Lakota not missing defiant single time despite being old bucket?

Star Wars can jam subspace sensors? Doubtful.

See above.

My point is that Imperials don't have ability to engage at ranges that Star Wars non-canon gives them.

You still don't understand what a stationary target is, do you?

Which are all non-canon.

Yet you have no problem with allowing them when you have the impression that they help your cause.

And can Star Wars jamming tech jam Star Trek sensors? We never heard of subspace in Star Wars, nor did we hear of hyperspace jamming and hyperspace sensors, in case that hyperspace is also subspace.

See above.

Beacouse firing at longer range requires more energy?

...why?

If you want to fire few hundred kilogram torpedo at long range, with speed that allows you to hit enemy in any reasonable time; e.g., so as not to expend any of reactants on board torpedo on manouvering and acceleration, you have to expend several gigatons of energy per torpedo. Mass lightening could drop it to several hundred megatons per torpedo at most.

Not if the target is moving in a predictable path, as I have pointed out.

Flares? Maybe some plasma or antimatter-based trick?

Which shows that you have been watching too much Star Trek. Some "antimatter based trick"? What?

And if said missiles are not shielded, cube simply shoots them down. Or changes course.

Oh, the cube could do that...no, it doesn't bother to try in the battles, not to mention that although a modern missile could hit it, it would do no harm and the borg would not bother to avoid it.

Since we are not talking about him going to bathroom, but rather about starships shooting at each other... besides, we know that he is human, and humans go to bathroom. So... thought I fail to see relevance in your post.

Better analogy; we never see Han Solo cry, iirc, so does that mean that he has never cried?

And it matters how? Age of sail ship can take more cannonballs than modern cruiser can take guided missiles. That makes modern cruiser inferior how?

Again, you forget context.

Federation fleet still lost good deal of ships. Plus you forget that there are things such as damage control, structural fields and shields.

None of which have been shown to justify charging straight through an enemy formation.

Yet we see weapons mounted at both CIS and Republic fleets that are clearly intended for age-of-sail type combat.

The flax cannons were, because they could shoot down projectiles as they approached the hull. The Battle of Endor clearly shows that typical Star Wars combat is not fought like age of sail.

Slow. Sloooow. Ever watched TESB? I think never.

Justify how the Death Star circumnavigated Yavin then. Or this:


"Some were frightening, some less so, but none were as indicative of power held in check as the four silvery starships which burst
into view above the observer. Keeping a tight formation, they exploded through humid air to vanish in seconds into the morning cloud cover far above. Sound-shadows rattled the trees moments later, in a forlorn attempt to catch up to the engines which had produced them."

Contradicted by movie, by the way. They did not form two „pincers“, and could have as well jumped into place. Or maybe were there from beginning.

The imperial fleet was already combined into one flying wedge by the time we see them in the movies, so there is no contradiction.

In Wounded Cardassian transport uses high-powered subspace field to hide contents of its cargo bays.

And this can be extrapolated to jamming targeting system how?

If 50% is „vast numbers“...

For such suicidal tactics, sure.

Or micro-torpedoes.

What? Did you respond to the right post?

I just watched scene, and he only told Galaxy and cruiser wings to „drop to half impulse“. We don't know what happened between that and fighters engaging. Plus, racing a slalom throught enemy fleet at full impulse is sure way to get yourself killed. Or you think they were kamikazes of sorts?

Eh, let's drop that part given that Star Wars occasionally has this problem, but Sisko did say full impulse/half impulse of the sort, and yet the fighters clearly were using less than 0.000001% of what they can supposedly do.

They are. Torpedoes are in low gigatons, and phasers seem to be around ½ to 1/5th of torpedo yield. So yes, phasers are pretty much in hundreds of megatons.

If torpeodos were low gigatons, why is the showing of quantum torpedos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHTtOMWRysg

Not gigaton level at all?

Have we seen these ships fire against ANYTHING quantifiable?

The interiors of a ship with combustible air?

Proof?

If the phasers were kiloton level, one blast would have cleared the entire ship.

They wouldn't be trying to board ship with it if it couldn't match Voyager's acceleration.

So then why did they not crank up acceleration? Would the Voyager not have more thrust to escape?

And lowering yield in process? You really have way for „logic“...

Red herring; that's out of context.

Jem'Hadar aren't above killing themselves to prove the point, so they would have either intercepted and shot down or rammed fleet, ship-by-ship. Plus, Star Trek ships have sensors with ranges measured in light hours - Silicon Avatar as example.

How does one intercept and ram right into a ship moving at 0.8 C, when they failed to do so when the ships are moving at 0.0000001C?

IT WAS intercepted, and chased. And had not Klingons saved the day, she would probably have been destroyed.

It was chased, not intercepted, at supersonic speeds.

We saw Riker's assesment ON SCREEN. Meanwhile, all you are trying to do with BDZ is to push non-canon and replace canon with it.

Total red herring and goalpost shift. Your rationalization (note how you have to try and wave away your quote?) is that the person in the shelter was a civilian and miscalculated the power of turbolasers by 1000 orders of magnitude, even though the person was a military trained agent.

Very funny. We left thread beacouse we were derailing it. So, no, it is not about BDZ.

Right, we were derailing a thread and decided to continue it here. This includes BDZ.

Small town – US small town, as it is intended to US audience
vaporization – as commonly used. Meaning this:

Provide an example of Star Wars authors ever breaking the 4th wall.

Oh please. Explain why you are using Hiroshima, mostly built out of wood structures, as a benchmark for a Star Wars small town?

They use fusion for power production. ML is only logical explanation.

More circular reasoning!

Fusion power scales as the fourth power of the B (magnetic) field and the cube of the size. Meaning that you are bullshitting.

Of course, citation is needed.

Except that Federation ships have shown acceleration of 362 962 963 km/h^2. Calculate how much energy is required for that without mass lightening. That is 100 823 045.3 m/s^2.
F = ma, so for Intrepid class F = 7.0576 x 10e16 N. J = N x m, so to accelerate by that every 50.4 thousand kilometers (timeframe of 1 second), you need 3.557 x 10e24 W; that is 3.56 x 10e12 TW, or 3.6 billion petawatts. Which is ~38 % of power production given to Imperial Star Destroyer by ICS. And there are some people here who do not agree with me on mass lightening. BTW, if we take DS9 technical manual and decide to cherry pick like you do – taking just mass of ship (4 500 000 metric tons) and using calculated acceleration – we get F = 4.537 x 10e17 N, giving us power production of 2.287 x 10e25 W. For comparation, non-canon CCS lists ISD's peak power output as 9.28 x 10e24 W. Whoops. What usage of non-canon information as well as bit of cherry picking can do.

And exactly where did you get estimates for the mass of the Intrepid?

And I just watched it. They did not circumnavigate planet completely – Rebel display was quite off when compared to one on Death Star.

No it was not. You will provide evidence or admit that the Rebels would not use a display console that is completely inaccurate (notice how you are violating your own literary method?).

Plus:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiS-3-nD ... re=related

At one minute – „accelerate to attack speed“. Not quite large speed.

Semantics. We know that they obviously were going faster than that earlier; they probably decelerated beforehand to avoid zipping past the Death Star.

I don't remember any. Plus, I was under impression that was about Nemesis.

Ah, Nemesis. Nemesis, which shows a kiloton level ram damaging a ship.

How is atomic bomb dangerous beacouse it is different than TNT? It does thing that are NOT NORMAL.

F'ing up communications has nothing to do with physical damage to the hull or shields.

I quoted PART OF POST THAT IS RELEVANT. YOU ASKED ME THIS:

What do warp impacts have to do with sublight speeds?

So I ANSWERED IT.

That was a portion of what I asked.

Within minutes.

Yes, which implies acceleration closely agreeing with the circumnavigation of Yavin.

It might have been half an hour, or hours. And Death Star display shows that there was no circumnavigation.

The script states that the Death Star will be in firing range in 30 minutes at the start of the battle.

Backup hyperdrive, maybe? Beacouse, you know, there is reason why „slower than light“ engines are called that way.

Backup hyperdrives of which Han could have simply just used right away? Obviously he was using sublight engines.

And notice how you are conveniently using what you consider to be non canon as evidence?

Small blip? And any proof it was in seconds? It might have been minutes.

As the Falcon dramatically exits the Death Star, it goes to a small blip with no scene cut in seconds.

1) Within MINUTES. It is small ship.
2) Circumnavigate, no. We see on Death Star's displays they did not have to circumnavigate half of planet, but rather small portion of it. Besides, they could have jumped.
3) backup hyperdrive. Or you think that 8 years to Alpha Centauri in .5c capable ship is reasonable?
4) there is cut between scenes. How you know it was within seconds?

1. Your acceleration figures would have meant that it took the Falcon weeks to approach the Death STar.
2. Notice how you provide no evidence of this, and also violate your own literary method, given that the Rebel display console was obviously meant to forbode and track the dramatic movement of the Death Star?
3. Or what about just over a year at 0.99C to a star system just a light year away?
4. There was no cut. The 'cut' started the Falcon exiting the Death Star; we see it exit in real time.

No, but I DO accept pure logic.

Nu uh, pure logic does not prove that the Falcon had a backup hyperdrive.

What above? That they can't go past ships in wormhole or what?

This...does not relate to my post. At all. Again.

Shields, anyone?

Red herring, yet again. Remember context.

Collisions? Jem'Hadar are crazy enough to slam into enemy ship if situation requires it. And warp core explosion + possibly loaded photon torpedoes = more than shields of similarly-sized or even larger ship can take.

They would have about a fraction of a blink of an eye to do so if the Federation used its 0.8 C engines, right?

Look 5-6 past posts.

[/quote]

You mean the exact same thing that you claim you don't want to do?

[Picard]

Page has become little too long so I'll post few empty posts in order to move to next page.