Slave Ship and ICS

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Another point:

In Star Wars Slave Ship, a transport fleet lifted up the entire ocean mass of an M class, Earth like planet. This would take an excess of 8E28 joules to do so. If we assume that the transport fleet consisted of a thousand ships, each ship would have needed to generate 8e25 joules of energy (increasing the size of the transport fleet would be an admission to Star Wars having GIANT transport fleets, and thus ship numbers), which is greater than the fuel supply of the Enterprise, which would have to divert all of its reactor power for 100 days to do what a single transport ship in Star Wars could do.

[Praeothmin]

And?
What was the purpose of this action from the fleet?
Do you have a quote?

[Mike DiCenso]

Another point:

In Star Wars Slave Ship, a transport fleet lifted up the entire ocean mass of an M class, Earth like planet. This would take an excess of 8E28 joules to do so. If we assume that the transport fleet consisted of a thousand ships, each ship would have needed to generate 8e25 joules of energy (increasing the size of the transport fleet would be an admission to Star Wars having GIANT transport fleets, and thus ship numbers), which is greater than the fuel supply of the Enterprise, which would have to divert all of its reactor power for 100 days to do what a single transport ship in Star Wars could do.

More importantly, how did you calculate that? The mass of Earth's oceans from all sources I can find is about 1.39 E 21 kg. How many ships were involved, how long did it take then to lift the ocean of this one planet? So dividing that by 1,000 = 13.9e18 kg per ship. Since each ship hardly needs to expend 1,000,000 joules per kg to lift it up, I find your 8e25 J number highly questionable. Also, a large transport fleet in SW does not necessarily translate into large combat fleets. Since you are reluctant as usual to provide details of the operation in question, I have to wonder if you are giving us an accurate picture of what is going on.

But for comparison:

In "The Paradise Syndrome", the E-1701 has nudged a Luna-sized asteroid with it's nav deflector, changing it's velocity vector by 0.013 degrees. That requires somewhere within the orders of 10e22-10e23 joules of kinetic energy.

In "The Masterpiece Society", the E-D moved a mountain-sized stellar core fragment with a density of explicitly stated density of 10e14 tons per m^3.

In "Deja Q", the E-D with impulse engines and tractor beam alone moves a large, asteroidial moon for 92 meter a second delta-v change. The rough calculations based on the moon's changing it's planet's tides by 10 meters on a close pass suggest a moon the size of Mars' moon Phobos, which means that the ship at minimum applied 4.2 x 10^18 watts.

Now I will warn you not to take this too much further into a Star Trek versus Star Wars debate as this is only a thread for listing sources incompatible with the ICS books, and attempting to derail such a thread will result in another warning for you.
-Mike

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

In "The Masterpiece Society", the E-D moved a mountain-sized stellar core fragment with a density of explicitly stated density of 10e14 tons per m^3.

If we use a pyramid model to calculate the area and use the lowest value for a mountain height (600 meters high) we get 72 million m3 absolute low end.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Another point:

In Star Wars Slave Ship, a transport fleet lifted up the entire ocean mass of an M class, Earth like planet. This would take an excess of 8E28 joules to do so. If we assume that the transport fleet consisted of a thousand ships, each ship would have needed to generate 8e25 joules of energy (increasing the size of the transport fleet would be an admission to Star Wars having GIANT transport fleets, and thus ship numbers), which is greater than the fuel supply of the Enterprise, which would have to divert all of its reactor power for 100 days to do what a single transport ship in Star Wars could do.

More importantly, how did you calculate that? The mass of Earth's oceans from all sources I can find is about 1.39 E 21 kg. How many ships were involved, how long did it take then to lift the ocean of this one planet? So dividing that by 1,000 = 13.9e18 kg per ship. Since each ship hardly needs to expend 1,000,000 joules per kg to lift it up, I find your 8e25 J number highly questionable. Also, a large transport fleet in SW does not necessarily translate into large combat fleets. Since you are reluctant as usual to provide details of the operation in question, I have to wonder if you are giving us an accurate picture of what is going on.

The transport ships have to not only lift the planet encircling oceans of Gholondreine-b away, they have to reach escape velocity while carrying e18 kg per ship, and then jump to hyperspace (which consumes more energy the more massive the ship).

As for how long it took them, such is not specified, but e25 joules is the energy that the Enterprise would produce in 100 days.

But for comparison:

In "The Paradise Syndrome", the E-1701 has nudged a Luna-sized asteroid with it's nav deflector, changing it's velocity vector by 0.013 degrees. That requires somewhere within the orders of 10e22-10e23 joules of kinetic energy.

How did E-1701 do so specifically? Did it go up the asteroid and nudge it? Did it bump into the asteroid enough to nudge it?

In "The Masterpiece Society", the E-D moved a mountain-sized stellar core fragment with a density of explicitly stated density of 10e14 tons per m^3.

Moved it how far? Details are needed please.

In "Deja Q", the E-D with impulse engines and tractor beam alone moves a large, asteroidial moon for 92 meter a second delta-v change. The rough calculations based on the moon's changing it's planet's tides by 10 meters on a close pass suggest a moon the size of Mars' moon Phobos, which means that the ship at minimum applied 4.2 x 10^18 watts.

...which is less than e25 joules.

[/quote]

[Mike DiCenso]

The transport ships have to not only lift the planet encircling oceans of Gholondreine-b away, they have to reach escape velocity while carrying e18 kg per ship, and then jump to hyperspace (which consumes more energy the more massive the ship).

As for how long it took them, such is not specified, but e25 joules is the energy that the Enterprise would produce in 100 days.

Here you go again with dishonesty. The time it takes is everything and how they do it. If they lift the water straight up off the planet with tractor beams, and put it into some nifty storage tanks, then it means they did not spend anywhere near 1e25 J. If it took them a year to do this, then while it's an impressive feat, it's not nearly as impressive as you say since now that energy is expended over a large period of time. 1e25 J is not the same as 1e25 W, far from it.

How did E-1701 do so specifically? Did it go up the asteroid and nudge it? Did it bump into the asteroid enough to nudge it?

You already have the information you need. And yet you have not provided any evidence that supports your 1e25 J number for Slave Ship, which by the way, you need to provide more information on since I could not find any reference to pulling a planet's oceans up in the book plot summaries.

Moved it how far? Details are needed please.

Again, please provide information for the alleged Slave Ship information. I have no reason to go any further than to say they moved it 1.8 degrees off it's original trajectory, which is far more than the E-1701 did with the Moon-sized asteroid.

...which is less than e25 joules.

Hello, do you understand what "lower limit" means? They were using the secondary impulse power, not warp. Warp is vastly more powerful than impulse. At this point I'm also going to give you a chance to request splitting this off into a new thread since this thread's OP is not about SW versus ST.
-Mike

[Jedi Master Spock]

Stripping a planet of its oceans and shipping those oceans out-system is on the order of e9 J/kg in terms of total energy requirements. Pulling them into a minimum hyperspace orbit is going to be around 5e7 J/kg.

The fact that you don't have to accelerate the water doesn't matter all that much, since you do still have to lift it up the gravity well. Spacelifting an ocean is a lot of energy - no two ways about it - and SWST's figures are quite reasonable in that light for estimating the energy it takes to spacelift an ocean.

The energy per ship per trip, I can't comment on, since I don't know how many ships were involved or how long it took.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Stripping a planet of its oceans and shipping those oceans out-system is on the order of e9 J/kg in terms of total energy requirements. Pulling them into a minimum hyperspace orbit is going to be around 5e7 J/kg.

The fact that you don't have to accelerate the water doesn't matter all that much, since you do still have to lift it up the gravity well. Spacelifting an ocean is a lot of energy - no two ways about it - and SWST's figures are quite reasonable in that light for estimating the energy it takes to spacelift an ocean.

The energy per ship per trip, I can't comment on, since I don't know how many ships were involved or how long it took.

Even with Field Secured Container Vessels like the Black Ice, or some of the largest cargo ships such as the Sulon Star, it would takes ages to achieve that. You'd need a super fleet and countless trips. It's just a gargantuan task, like how in ancient times, some Middle East capital city entirely made of stone was moved away (somewhere around current Iraq I think). Can't remember the name of the city, but the point is that you can do pretty much anything as long as you have logistics and time on your side.

[Praeothmin]

If we assume that the transport fleet consisted of a thousand ships,

Why should we assume that?
In the EU, after all, the Empire had over 25 000 SDs, so the fleet of cargo ships could easily have been in the 10 000 number...

And even then, as others have mentioned, there is no timetable, no mention of how many trips it took, unless, of course, you have such a passage from the book detailing all this?

[Picard]

Not to mention that some EU sources imply far smaller numbers, which other "solve" by having Imperials fight among themselves. For example, Thrawn trilogy gives 200 Dreadnoughts as force able to tip scales of war. Given that you need 4 to 5 dreadnoughts to stalemate ISD, and assuming that 180 captured dreadnoughts is 1/5th of Thrawn's force (effectively, not numerically) we get 180 to 225 ISD's in Thrawn's fleet max. Assuming roughly 20-odd factions, that is fleet of 3600 to 4500 ISD's. Way lower than 25 000 ISD's EU figure.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

I do not own Star Wars Slave Ship, so until I can find the chapter in which the statement was made I will admit that you can reasonably question the time frame in which the e28 joules was expended. However, in order to strike even with the Enterprise with a fleet of 1000 ships, the fleet would had to have spent 100 days performing the task, and I doubt the willingness of the crew to spend 100 days picking up a bunch of water.

[Mr. Oragahn]

It's rather simple. We know the largest cargos the GE has at its disposal. There is the limit of how much water it can take per round.
Anything else is a question of numbers and time, so even if in the total, it looks impressive, it is not once brought back to the perspective of a single ship.

[Mike DiCenso]

Well, using Black Star as a model for a transport, and it's really about our only canonical reference for such a ship, we can estimate each of the three spherical tanks has a volume of 904,778,684.234 m^3. Pure water weighs in at 1,000 kg per meter cubed for 818,624,467,444,082,020,723.68 kg per container. Since there are 3 such containers on that class, 2,455,873,402,332,246,062,171 kg of water total.

Now, assuming that holds up, you divide that into 3.9e21 kg, and you find that the absolute upper limit for Star Wars in carrying capacity, assuming they had that many Black Stars available for use, and you can get away with about 60 ships. That's an upper limit here, mind you. So 1e25 J divided by 60 = 166,666,666,666,666,666,666,666.66 watts, or about the range of 1e22 to 1e23 W maximum power generation per ship.

This assumes raw energy expended here, when we know that mass lightning exists in the SW universe along with repulsor lift and other tricks, and it assumes the very biggest and best ships were available for the job.

So, after having bent ass-backwards to be generous, and get an extreme upper limit, the power generation can get into the 1e23 range for an SW ship, but that's really pushing it.
-Mike

[StarWarsStarTrek]

However generous that may be, it is still ten thousand times more than the power generation of the Enterprise.

[Praeothmin]

However generous that may be, it is still ten thousand times more than the power generation of the Enterprise.

And it's still 1 EU example, not corroborated by the movies or TCW... :)

Plus, this is still assuming one trip per ship, which is, as of yet, another unproven assertion, and is very, very generous... :)