Star Wars: Fighters vs Capital Ships revisited

[GStone]

It's probably the magnetic field they went through, though I'd guess that's probably to protect against energy blasts from capital ships and protect the DS from asteroids and debris in space.

[Socar]

The first Death Star had shields?????? (really wants to know)
Where was that mentioned?

During the briefing for the Rebel Pilots, General Dodonna describes the Death Star as "heavily shielded" (before going on to talk about its firepower).

[Who is like God arbour]

By the way: the "George Bush example" is nothing. George Bush is not a good politician. Why should one assume, that he could be a military genious.

The Goerge Bush example is him giving us an example of what he means.
And to me, a man who isn't too bright that succeeds in getting elected as President of the United States for two terms is a darn good politician if you ask me... :)

He may not be a good military leader, but he is a good politician...

I only meant that in that specific case, he expanded on his arguments, by saying that George Bush isn't the brightest military leader (heck, I would've stopped at the "brightest"... :) ), but he still succeeded in conning the enough people to be elected twice in a row.
Once again, a very good politician... :)

George Bush was not very popular before 11.09.2001.
If this had not happened, he wouldn't be re-elected.
Insofar is he one of the people, who has most benefited from this terrorist attack.

And after it, he has made such stupid decisions, that the USA has lost respect and credit all-over the world and most of the Americans doesn't support him anymore. Today, he rank among the worst Amerikan presidents.

One says, he is a president of war.

But even as president of war, he screwed up.



The question is, what is a good politican.

Is it someone, who get elected or is it someone, who get elected and does a good job?

The presence is only a short amount of time. Important is the retrospective judgement of the future.

And Amidala, as Attack of the Clones and the funeral in Revenge of the Sith have shown, was a popular queen. They have even suggested to change the constitution, so that she can have another term in office.

I can't predict, what the future will think about George Bush. But I wholeheartedly doubt it would be good things.

[AnonymousRedShirtEnsign]

Maybe the rebel's were under the DS's shields? After all it is designed to hold off enemy fleets rather than fighters, so it's shield could be a hundred meters or so from the hull.

As for Bush, throughout history the United States has shown that during a time of war it will almost always reelect it's president. This was back when a lot of people, myself included, were still infavor of the US led coalition's envolvement in Iraq. That was more than two years ago and nothing good has come of it (well, not for the US or most of the Middle-East at least).

[Who is like God arbour]

Maybe the rebel's were under the DS's shields? After all it is designed to hold off enemy fleets rather than fighters, so it's shield could be a hundred meters or so from the hull.

How got they through this shield?

What use has a shield, which can be penetrated that easily with fighters?

One could send as easily some heavy bombs or rather missiles, which detonate not while penetrating the shield but on impact on the surface - or better, a device, which penetrate even the surface and some decks and detonate within the death star (like a Bunker buster).

Some of such devices concentrated on the firing ports of the main weapon of the death star could maybe be enough to disable it, if they could destroy this ports.

That would buy time to destroy the death star.

[AnonymousRedShirtEnsign]

Star Wars shields don't exactly have a good track record when it comes to stopping solid objects.

[Praeothmin]

Perhaps it only had ray shielding, and trusted its anti-fighter turrets to ward off enemy starfighters.

Which brings a question into my mind:
The Death Star was a battlestation, right?
One would think then, that it would be as proportionately protected, by shield and by armor, as an ISD.

Then, if it was, how come Starfighter fire which is supposedly incapable of penetrating an ISD's armor was able to damage the surface of the Death Star?

Or did the Empire go cheap on its Ultimate Battlestation and equip it with cheap armor that can't even stop Kiloton level weaponry... :)

[Who is like God arbour]

Perhaps it only had ray shielding, and trusted its anti-fighter turrets to ward off enemy starfighters.

Which brings a question into my mind:
The Death Star was a battlestation, right?
One would think then, that it would be as proportionately protected, by shield and by armor, as an ISD.

Then, if it was, how come Starfighter fire which is supposedly incapable of penetrating an ISD's armor was able to damage the surface of the Death Star?

Or did the Empire go cheap on its Ultimate Battlestation and equip it with cheap armor that can't even stop Kiloton level weaponry... :)

That is an excellent objection.

A New Hope has shown, that fighters can damage the exterior shell of the death star.

Conclusion: the armor of the death star isn't that strong.

If the Empire hasn't gone cheap on it and equiped it with cheap armor, it was equiped with the same or better armor as every ISD.

It is not very convincing, that the Empire should has gone cheap on its "Ultimate Battlestation".

Conlusion: the armor of an ISD isn't that strong too and can be penetrated by fighter weapons.

[watchdog]

Perhaps it only had ray shielding, and trusted its anti-fighter turrets to ward off enemy starfighters.

Which brings a question into my mind:
The Death Star was a battlestation, right?
One would think then, that it would be as proportionately protected, by shield and by armor, as an ISD.

Then, if it was, how come Starfighter fire which is supposedly incapable of penetrating an ISD's armor was able to damage the surface of the Death Star?

Or did the Empire go cheap on its Ultimate Battlestation and equip it with cheap armor that can't even stop Kiloton level weaponry... :)

That is an excellent objection.

A New Hope has shown, that fighters can damage the exterior shell of the death star.

Conclusion: the armor of the death star isn't that strong.

If the Empire hasn't gone cheap on it and equiped it with cheap armor, it was equiped with the same or better armor as every ISD.

It is not very convincing, that the Empire should has gone cheap on its "Ultimate Battlestation".

Conlusion: the armor of an ISD isn't that strong too and can be penetrated by fighter weapons.

This reminds me of MW claiming that Lukes lasers were flash-vapourising sections of the DS hull even though it's more likely to be causing localised explosions.

The magnetic field makes a bit of sense, remember the trash compactor scene where the blaster bolt ricochets off of the magnetic seal, we may have discovered the main property of ray shields :D

[Who is like God arbour]

Perhaps it only had ray shielding, and trusted its anti-fighter turrets to ward off enemy starfighters.

Which brings a question into my mind:
The Death Star was a battlestation, right?
One would think then, that it would be as proportionately protected, by shield and by armor, as an ISD.

Then, if it was, how come Starfighter fire which is supposedly incapable of penetrating an ISD's armor was able to damage the surface of the Death Star?

Or did the Empire go cheap on its Ultimate Battlestation and equip it with cheap armor that can't even stop Kiloton level weaponry... :)

That is an excellent objection.

A New Hope has shown, that fighters can damage the exterior shell of the death star.

Conclusion: the armor of the death star isn't that strong.

If the Empire hasn't gone cheap on it and equiped it with cheap armor, it was equiped with the same or better armor as every ISD.

It is not very convincing, that the Empire should has gone cheap on its "Ultimate Battlestation".

Conlusion: the armor of an ISD isn't that strong too and can be penetrated by fighter weapons.

This reminds me of MW claiming that Lukes lasers were flash-vapourising sections of the DS hull even though it's more likely to be causing localised explosions.

Who is MW?

To cause a localised explosion, one has to get under the armor.

The magnetic field makes a bit of sense, remember the trash compactor scene where the blaster bolt ricochets off of the magnetic seal, we may have discovered the main property of ray shields :D

But wouldn't the blasters of the fighters ricochets from the death star and every other shield protected ship too, if it was a magnetic field as in the trash compactor scene?

[watchdog]

Who is MW?

Sorry, old Spacebattles habit, Mike Wong.

To cause a localised explosion, one has to get under the armor.

I went over this with Wong once long ago, as I recall Luke fired a bunch of random shots that raised a lot of sparks before a concentrated burst exploded a section of the hull. My localised explosion was me not thinking or remembering the sequence of events, sorry. I suggested that Luke may have hit a power conduit or something similar, Mr. Wong insisted that part of the hull was most likely being vapourised.

But wouldn't the blasters of the fighters ricochets from the death star and every other shield protected ship too, if it was a magnetic field as in the trash compactor scene?

The only other time I can recall similar ricochet was after Anakin got the shields of his fighter up the trade fed droids fired and their shits simply bounced off. this is all one observation because we've seen shields do many different things including flare up at point of impact like the destroyer droids shields do. Who knows what the truth is.

[Gandalf]

I really can't be bothered to sort through three pages worth of replies on this. You all have my concession.

[Who is like God arbour]

Sorry, old Spacebattles habit, Mike Wong.

Ah, Mister I am a Bachelor of Applied Science in Mechanical Engineering and know all what is to know in science.

I hope, it doesn't violate the rules of this forum when I say, that I think, he is either an idiot or a liar.

I have read some of the things, he has written on his pages.

For example, he is ranting about Star Trek engineering and that, if he would build a Star Trek ship, he would employ the dead man's switch" principles to the warp core, like in a terrestrial reactor.

And he would design the antimatter tanks so that they must be retained against a constant ejection pressure.

I think, that is the proof, that Mike Wong is an incompetent engineer.

A Starfleet ship is a warship too, regardless how Starfleet define itself. It is a ship, which has to fight.

And a ship, which has to fight, need a certain safety which assured that the ship doesn’t lose in a battle its main power and fuel.

If Mike Wong would have built it, its warp core would shut down after it was hit the first time and it would eject all of its antimatter tanks.

Anti matter is, as you certainly know, a really dangerous substance. It must be very well secured.

A ship, which Mike Wong would have built, would, when its main power is shut down while it is maintained or due to a short circuit, eject all its antimatter tanks, maybe even on the surface of planet or in its orbit or in the inside of a star base.

A star ship travels through deep space. The survival of its crew depends on the functioning of its systems.

A ship, which Mike Wong would have built, would eject its warp core and its antimatter tanks only because a short circuit in the retaining system. And without its main power, the crew of the star ship would be lost, if they wouldn’t get help in due time.

A good engineer should be able to recognize the requirements on a system, which he or she is engineering.

Mike Wong has proofed, that he is not able to do that.

He would build a star ship with the same safety measures which has a terrestrial reactor. He is not able to realize that there are huge differences, which need different solutions.

If a terrestrial reactor shut down, nobody have to die. If a star ship loses its main power or its fuel, it could mean the death of the whole crew.

I went over this with Wong once long ago, as I recall Luke fired a bunch of random shots that raised a lot of sparks before a concentrated burst exploded a section of the hull. My localised explosion was me not thinking or remembering the sequence of events, sorry. I suggested that Luke may have hit a power conduit or something similar, Mr. Wong insisted that part of the hull was most likely being vapourised.

In a scene, there was an explosion after such an attack inside the death star. It seems that the armor couldn't stand the weapons power of this two fighters.

[Praeothmin]

About the Death Star's surface explosion from Luke's shots, the ANH novel states that Luke has hit a power conduit.

At least, that's what I remember being explained of this incident before.

And concerning Mr. Wong:
First, since he isn't here to defend himself, I believe it would be sufficient, rahter than calling him names, to say you disagree with wath he thinks.
The list you offer goes into great detail as to why you think that.

Unfortunately, his analysis of a ST vessel has no actual bearing on his real world skills, IMO, but more on his obvious SW bias.
On his website, it is clear that he heavily favors SW versus ST.
So of course, all his arguments will show that bias.

But, I have to say that if he is a meticulous at his work in RL as on his website, and if he is unbiased in his RL work, then I think he probably is a very good, extremelly opiniated Engineer.

[Who is like God arbour]

And concerning Mr. Wong:
First, since he isn't here to defend himself, I believe it would be sufficient, rahter than calling him names, to say you disagree with wath he thinks.
The list you offer goes into great detail as to why you think that.

I haven't called him names.

I have stated my thoughts.

Either he is incompetent or he is a liar.

As I have said, an engineer have to be able to recognize the requirements on a system, which he or she is engineering.

Either Mike Wong is not able to do this - than he is a incompetent engineer - or he is able to do this but is deliberately lying.

That are two possibilities, which rule out each other.

The only third possibility would be, that it is OK to build a ship a la Mr. Wong.

You can choose, what you believe.

But if you choose the third possibility, you should give some reasons.