Why even pretend?

[User1619]

Star Wars is old-hat sci-fi, using the old tech involving lasers and fusion etc. which came about with radio-shows and comic-books.

Star Trek was in a class by itself, based on far more advanced technology and science, as is plain to see.

The only reason anyone takes the vs. debate seriously using real science, is the Star Wars fanbois who can't understand that they're crushed like an ant under a bootheel, and there are LOTS of them-- and they're too dumb to figure it out.
Wong is just the queen of the colony, and he's good at wanking up figures and stats to fool the ignorant; but anyone who's capable of abstract reasoning can prove him wrong with a single fact, as I have on several occasions.
In short, they simply believe their own bullshit; but for that same reason it's impossible to CONVINCE them that they're wrong-- i.e. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

That's why no one here debates them on SDN; but as for those who try bringing it here, like starwarsvsstartrek, it's equally farcical.

There, I said it.

[mojo]

this is just another way of saying 'the debate is pointless'.

[Admiral Breetai]

any one capable of abstract reasoning my balls...even the dumbest naruto wanking troll I've ever seen watched star wars then wiki'd EU feats and was able to put together the sheer amount of bullshit...

in fact after reading the ICS said S class troll was like "ey gAiz diss databooks written by a fanboi" I mean really

simply put the movies paints FTL aside a vastly inferior society that's about low mid tier sci fi..while trek operates 'round high mid tier

[User1619]

I'd say its ST's tech is top-tier, while SW's is camp sci-fi.

As for SW's FTL, it doesn't even match up with its other tech, it's just a plot-hole to get around the galaxy. If their hyperdrive worked, then the rest of their tech should match up: i.e. they could use tachyon-beams/cannons etc; but they don't have any-- which is inconsistent.

Hell, the EU even has SW starships destroying planets by colliding with them at hyperspeed; so by that token they could just skip the Death Star and have an unmanned ship just RAM the planet at top speed.

this is just another way of saying 'the debate is pointless'.

Well more like silly; like talking about a person vs. an ant.

Like I'd just say that a person would step on it, CRUNCH; but ANTZ.net (based on the movie of the same name) would say "are you crazy, an ant can lift 50 times its weight, it would destroy a human since that means it's 50 times stronger; and an ant is part of a super-organism can work together in a colony" etc. and all kinds of other spurious crap which just ignores the obvious and lies its ass off.

And then when I point out that an ant has about 1 millionth a human's mass and that it just has better leverage, they start with the bullshit calcs....

You get the idea.

[sonofccn]

Well for me pitting the two against each other has been so enduring because of their differences

The Federation peaceful Western style Utopian verses the millitant Empire. That Star Wars is in essence a family saga/larger than life heroic myth set against the backdrop of a crumbling galaxy while Star Trek is about discovering who we are. That Star Wars is clearly rooted in past golden age of pulp seriels while Stark Trek, not without its own toe in it as well, is about our future, of our humanity that is, of our fears and more importantly our hopes.

I know this isn't exactly what the thread asked but I think this is why the two will be placed against each other by the faceless denizens of the internet for years to come, not because we want to see Imperial Star Destroyers orbiting Earth or Kirk bringing down the Empire but for the reflection of ourselves we see in the comparison. The many facets that make up the tapestry of our being, love for the past, hope for the future, courage to do the right thing be it standing up to the corrupt empire or standing up for your principals.

I don't know, sorry if this just comes outs as a ramble but this is what struck me when I read the thread.

[Mr. Oragahn]

SW largely roxed because it happened on the fringe of civilization. Tatooine, Bespin, Hoth, Endor, Dagoba. The OT had a wild feeling to it, with Holo smoking Greedo first, so forth and so on was just spaghetti western put into space, minus the spaghetti.

As for the technical side, Star Wars also had the quantity and is far from being that behind ST, ton for ton, and since SW has a shit load of said "tons", with quantity being a quality on its own, it largely explains why we get there, because the ISDs, numerous enough, compensate...

That said, it doesn't solve the problem of not having any weapon capable of besting photon torpedoes. There's simply nothing to stop ST ships from using torps (or even the long ranged phasers) onto ships which have not shown anything good beyond slow moving turbolasers with maximum ranges in the hundreds of kilometers, eventually.

While the peculiar uses of p. torps in ST can be explained in-universe by nullifying techs, there's nothing preventing the UFP to realize after a while that, yes, it could actually fire at those warships beyond their own firing range.

The SW side is at an advantage because of its size and the fact that it it decides to bombard an UFP planet, there's little the UFP planet can do to stop them.
Plus the Death Star, which is a huge game winner.

Besides, the UFP is too centered on a few star systems. This is not exactly the case for the Empire, which has been able to subsidize its power across a lot of its territory.

However, we've seen that it requires disregarding crucial elements, like moving through unknown space and the realities of hyperspace routes. Hyperdrive tech hardly being such a problem considering how so non-secret it is.
Or the existence of the Rebellion, which some warsies try to downsize in importance, but which we know from several EU books that it's more than just a side problem. Even if one source might describe the Rebellion has a horn in the foot, other sources have shown how their simple raids resulted in expensive losses for the Empire and how it forced said Empire to spread its own forces.
The last one being that the Empire itself largely hinges around the Emperor, and that if that one goes down, the whole galaxy is thrown into a super mess. House of cards describes it.
The Emperor also made dubious choices which prevented him from possessing a force which, in sheer numbers, would easily dwarf any advantage the UFP could have in higher tech.

[Admiral Breetai]

if an ISD battlegroup decided to hit a medium to major federation planet post Dominion war all they'd accomplish was creating a mass grave in space and providing the guys who operate junkyards with scrap metal and wreckage to hock off to the more primitive powers seriously./..it'd be suicide

[Mr. Oragahn]

if an ISD battlegroup decided to hit a medium to major federation planet post Dominion war all they'd accomplish was creating a mass grave in space and providing the guys who operate junkyards with scrap metal and wreckage to hock off to the more primitive powers seriously./..it'd be suicide

No. They'd certainly spam worlds with more warships and eventually bring some supers, more ships than the UFP can deal with at a given moment. They'd probably lose badly, but the UFP couldn't prevent the destruction to occur.
They'd also use more of those torpedo spheres, and there's nothing the UFP could do in time to prevent the mass slaughter.

There's also the question of thinking that the Empire isn't too dumb either. If the UFP can realize that it can fire missiles from a good distance, the Empire would obviously alter their tactics, strategies and ship designs to mirror that as well.
There's quite a wide variety of solutions to get rid of the advantage of long range torpedo bombardment. The most obvious is just to pepper torps with junk and shit to make them pop before they get too close.
The other is perhaps to make plenty of smaller ships, so they can fire their weapons and then buzz off. A number will be lost, but it's better than putting all your eggs into one basket and let it being struck like a sitting duck would while it tries to pee all over a planet's civilization.
A mix of multi-terajoule TLs and megaton range thermonucleear nukes would do.

There's also the problem that people like the Ferengi, or other factions, would see no problem getting friendly with the Empire or running mere business, as usual. Here come the blueprints for warp drives, warp cores and other phaser and photon torpedoes.

[Admiral Breetai]

No. They'd certainly spam worlds with more warships and eventually bring some supers, more ships than the UFP can deal with at a given moment. They'd probably lose badly, but the UFP couldn't prevent the destruction to occur.

it most certainly could I know that some EU sources show that the imperial fleet numbers in the millions simply put it's not supported by the films..even if you want to drag eu into this that kinda crap really has no validation (and the absence of evidence not being the evidence of absence..is a terrible debate tactic ) they don't have the numbers to hurl at the UFP where as some of their leading ships can likely go 3-6 on one with ISD's and local picket forces sans any orbital defenses would still be nightmarish though doable

but major worlds? hell no they'd be eaten alive they're forces torn to pieces

They'd also use more of those torpedo spheres, and there's nothing the UFP could do in time to prevent the mass slaughter.

between planetary shields and orbital defenses? local defense fleets?

[

There's also the question of thinking that the Empire isn't too dumb either.

the average commander and soldier probably isn't but they have some mule stupid leaders

If the UFP can realize that it can fire missiles from a good distance, the Empire would obviously alter their tactics, strategies and ship designs to mirror that as well.

i have the sinking suspicion that commanders slick enough to do this are either defending core worlds or force choked to death

There's quite a wide variety of solutions to get rid of the advantage of long range torpedo bombardment. The most obvious is just to pepper torps with junk and shit to make them pop before they get too close.

yeah a flack screen at an FTL moving anti matter missile that's shockwave can likely bust up an ISD's shields?

phasers are also a bitch to deal with and Wars tech has never come across that type of "go away weapon"

The other is perhaps to make plenty of smaller ships, so they can fire their weapons and then buzz off. A number will be lost, but it's better than putting all your eggs into one basket and let it being struck like a sitting duck would while it tries to pee all over a planet's civilization.

oh well if they want to hurl tiny frigates into a meat grinder Stalin style then I suppose frontier planets and some mid range territories are double fucked

A mix of multi-terajoule TLs and megaton range thermonucleear nukes would do.

knock a few bridge officers down? piss off the captain when he bumps his head?

There's also the problem that people like the Ferengi, or other factions, would see no problem getting friendly with the Empire or running mere business, as usual. Here come the blueprints for warp drives, warp cores and other phaser and photon torpedoes.

I'm not sure the Ferengi would be stupid enough to sell advanced weapons capable of working evenly with the guys who more or less provide a buffer between them and the rest of the nastier things in space, they may not like humanity but it's pretty clear they prefer these guys as the top dogs

mind you Cardassians and some of the DQ powers those space wiggers what rocked the pine apple hair what were they called Kazurn or kazon or something? and those telepath hating nazi like guys (who seemed to have tech enough to threaten an intrepid ) I see as being dumb enough to trade stuff on that level with the empire certainly..but we'd be be talking about a matter of time and excluding all the advancements SF seems to have made sense voyagers return

and the imps could probably do more with the wiggers tech then they could do that's for sure..probably scale it up make bigger guns do allot more with even there crummy power generation capabilities

[Mr. Oragahn]

No. They'd certainly spam worlds with more warships and eventually bring some supers, more ships than the UFP can deal with at a given moment. They'd probably lose badly, but the UFP couldn't prevent the destruction to occur.

it most certainly could I know that some EU sources show that the imperial fleet numbers in the millions simply put it's not supported by the films..even if you want to drag eu into this that kinda crap really has no validation (and the absence of evidence not being the evidence of absence..is a terrible debate tactic ) they don't have the numbers to hurl at the UFP where as some of their leading ships can likely go 3-6 on one with ISD's and local picket forces sans any orbital defenses would still be nightmarish though doable

but major worlds? hell no they'd be eaten alive they're forces torn to pieces

All depends on the size of the fleet they send and when, since technology is bound to make leaps as exchanges continue. As pointed out, I don't see the Imperials not acquiring tech from the Ferengi or else.
Heck, they could literally offer one of those other factions a juicy contract to have them build the Empire some typical Trek ships while having access to the imperial industry. Oh sure, things would take time to put into place, but it's not like the UFP would get anywhere before this gets achieved anyway.

They'd also use more of those torpedo spheres, and there's nothing the UFP could do in time to prevent the mass slaughter.

between planetary shields and orbital defenses? local defense fleets?

Torpedo spheres can puncture any matrix of shields that provides a full planetary coverage and the Hoth shields already was offering a good enough protection against Death Squadron.
The torpedo sphere is built to put holes in shields far above that (although the full coverage planetary shields are rare). They can find the weak spots in shields, same weak spots we know exist on the prison facility's shield from TOS for example.

There's also the question of thinking that the Empire isn't too dumb either.

the average commander and soldier probably isn't but they have some mule stupid leaders

More than the UFP? I doubt it.

If the UFP can realize that it can fire missiles from a good distance, the Empire would obviously alter their tactics, strategies and ship designs to mirror that as well.

i have the sinking suspicion that commanders slick enough to do this are either defending core worlds or force choked to death

Or that after loosing several ships and battles, they understand that their main problem is one of range against those torpedoes. That problem can be solved.

There's quite a wide variety of solutions to get rid of the advantage of long range torpedo bombardment. The most obvious is just to pepper torps with junk and shit to make them pop before they get too close.

yeah a flack screen at an FTL moving anti matter missile that's shockwave can likely bust up an ISD's shields?

It depends on the distance between the torpedo and the ship.
SDs have ranges in the hundreds of kilometers and bolts which can travel at about 10 km/s (from ROTJ). The other factor is how powerful you think the imperial ships are.

As for the FTL torps, I'm going to shrugg it off. When have we seen Trek ships reliably shoot torps at FTL speeds against targets flying at STL speeds?

phasers are also a bitch to deal with and Wars tech has never come across that type of "go away weapon"

Indeed. From bits I found in the EU, it's even possible that imperial shields might prove incapable of stopping most if not all of a phaser beam, based on how SW shields behave against two types of Trek-like disintegrating weapons.

That said, that would be another obvious reason to try to acquire said tech. It's not like disruptors or phasers are secret knowledge. Besides, the Empire wouldn't be suicidal up to the point of throwing its forces if from the first engagement, it would realize that its ships' defenses are as good as if they didn't exist. They're not pushovers.
They'll reconsider their strategy and focus on leveling the playground.

The other is perhaps to make plenty of smaller ships, so they can fire their weapons and then buzz off. A number will be lost, but it's better than putting all your eggs into one basket and let it being struck like a sitting duck would while it tries to pee all over a planet's civilization.

oh well if they want to hurl tiny frigates into a meat grinder Stalin style then I suppose frontier planets and some mid range territories are double fucked

Precisely. The only problem to that is that even if the Empire has those numbers, most of them are used to patrol its own territory against pirate and rebel raids.
On the other hand, the Empire would have enough power and money to encourage some evil force in Trek to work against the UFP.
The flipside of this is that the UFP could really give a boost to the rebels.
But all in all, the UFP has far more to lose than the Empire. The Empire has size and momentum. The technological gap and lack of data about territories, it can gain it from other alien species in Trek interested in war, trade or/and money, while the UFP won't be able to put a deep enough dent into the Empire.

Its unique chance of victory -and this has been clear for quite some time now, at least here- is to strike for Palpatine and his bureaucracy. This can be achieved with mounting a suicide and surprise attack against Coruscant after being sure that Palpatine is there, while continuously flying at warp for years. The problem being that ships at warp don't leave realspace, they just bend it. So they do leave a trace of their passage and their direction.
It's quite sure that if those UFOs get detected and seen headed for the Core Worlds, the Empire as a whole will get more than a litle suspicious. You may literally think that Palpatine will move to a more secure place until this gets solved.


Now, back to those questions of territorial fighting.
If the Empire ever was to manage to settle a beachhead on the fringe of the UFP, and if a planetary shield would get established, as the Empire is well ahead of the UFP when it comes to ground units, it could easily hold it.

The UFP could try doing the same and bust would have to seriously rework its entire concept of ground control. It would also have to deal with the problem of torpedo spheres and even perhaps a Death Star, depending on when this would take place.

A mix of multi-terajoule TLs and megaton range thermonucleear nukes would do.

knock a few bridge officers down? piss off the captain when he bumps his head?

Not against the ships, but against the surface targets. Those would be suicide missions.
Well, at first.
Again, with the most expected leveling of the tech gap, things would soon turn very grim for the UFP.

There's also the problem that people like the Ferengi, or other factions, would see no problem getting friendly with the Empire or running mere business, as usual. Here come the blueprints for warp drives, warp cores and other phaser and photon torpedoes.

I'm not sure the Ferengi would be stupid enough to sell advanced weapons capable of working evenly with the guys who more or less provide a buffer between them and the rest of the nastier things in space, they may not like humanity but it's pretty clear they prefer these guys as the top dogs

The Empire is also humanity... and much more. Seriously, what do ou think the Ferengi will do when they're promised all new markets and lands to exploit and explore?
The Ferengi are very schemy and few of them have actually appeared friendly towards the UFP. The Ferengi like money. They do business and they've been shown to sell weapons to any side ready to buy it. Even Quark, one of the most open Ferengi towards the UFP, restricted his bar to filter out any UFP customer at some point.
They'll be responsible of UFP's problems, among other things, and there's nothing which can be done against that aside from running false flag attacks on the worlds of the Ferengi Alliance or its ships, and propose to protect their lands, ships and trade from Imperial activity if they cut all contacts with the Empire.
This has literally no chance to happen and is just all too bound to mistakes. Not to say that if they grab the rabbit, the Ferengi will be twice nastier against the UFP.

mind you Cardassians and some of the DQ powers those space wiggers what rocked the pine apple hair what were they called Kazurn or kazon or something? and those telepath hating nazi like guys (who seemed to have tech enough to threaten an intrepid ) I see as being dumb enough to trade stuff on that level with the empire certainly..but we'd be be talking about a matter of time and excluding all the advancements SF seems to have made sense voyagers return

Frankly, time is something the Empire has. It's just too vast, and if the UFP attacks, it will all go to the Empire's benefit, as it will have a new enemy against which all can unite, and that, my friend, is something priceless to any sick government.
It's going to be tough for the rebellion to retain their support when their most friendly worlds will see their populaces suddenly coil in fear because of those unknown terrorists. And if the Rebellion were to band with the UFP, the Empire would have an opportunity to paint them as galacic traitors.

Meanwhile, the UFP would have to make huge efforts to spread a propaganda of some utopic friendly and free society that welcomes anyone.
The Empire could probably pull a false flag a thousand times better than the UFP could, far more effective. They're more pragmatic and evil, and obviously capable of doing so.

and the imps could probably do more with the wiggers tech then they could do that's for sure..probably scale it up make bigger guns do allot more with even there crummy power generation capabilities

Possibly.

[sonofccn]

Torpedo spheres can puncture any matrix of shields that provides a full planetary coverage and the Hoth shields already was offering a good enough protection against Death Squadron.
The torpedo sphere is built to put holes in shields far above that (although the full coverage planetary shields are rare). They can find the weak spots in shields, same weak spots we know exist on the prison facility's shield from TOS for example.

I guess, not sure if Imperial sensors are up to snuff for that, but that assumes the torpedo spheres can survive to fire against the ground based defense phasers and any ships in the system. Frankly beefing up shield strenght or adding a couple extra phaser emitters seem easier than spamming specialized siege engines which torpedo spheres are if I understand correctly.

Or that after loosing several ships and battles, they understand that their main problem is one of range against those torpedoes. That problem can be solved.

Uh phasers can also be fired in the thousand range, far beyond the effective area of turbolasers, as well I'm not sure what the Empire can do. Going with "we are team cannon fodder" will ensure more vessels close to the distance but in turn means you need more to overtake and destroy even an aging Federation warship much less Sovs or Defiants.

But all in all, the UFP has far more to lose than the Empire. The Empire has size and momentum. The technological gap and lack of data about territories, it can gain it from other alien species in Trek interested in war, trade or/and money, while the UFP won't be able to put a deep enough dent into the Empire.

Beyond the inherent risk of instability importing Federation style tech into the Empire, planets are suddenly much more self-sufficent if need be with a replicator, the sheer size of the Empire might prove difficult and time consuming to "upgrade" as well the Federation will not be sitting idle. They can build more advanced ships and larger ones bristling with quantum torpedoes and dozens of phaser banks.

If the Empire ever was to manage to settle a beachhead on the fringe of the UFP, and if a planetary shield would get established, as the Empire is well ahead of the UFP when it comes to ground units, it could easily hold it.

? A fringe world isn't likely to have much of a military presence little alone one that could defeat a determined and massed Imperial assault and if its a battle to retake the world they should come with starships that after blasting the shield down to land them can slaughter AT-ATs as easy as you please. I'm not saying the groundpounders getting a little more luving would be a bad thing but I'm not seeing ground warfare as pivotal.

The Ferengi are very schemy and few of them have actually appeared friendly towards the UFP. The Ferengi like money. They do business and they've been shown to sell weapons to any side ready to buy it. Even Quark, one of the most open Ferengi towards the UFP, restricted his bar to filter out any UFP customer at some point.

Very true and a market like the Empire is going to be a very rich prize indeed but I think some caution should be injected. The Ferengi are not dumb, well they are but not about important things like money, and are not going to simply kill the goose laying the golden eggs so to speak. Expect lots of building unstopable killships alpha and when they are godsmacked have them feign surprise and offer them unstopable killships beta.

In addition the Ferengi's might try to do to the Empire what the old Colonial powers tried with Imperial China.

Frankly, time is something the Empire has. It's just too vast, and if the UFP attacks, it will all go to the Empire's benefit, as it will have a new enemy against which all can unite, and that, my friend, is something priceless to any sick government.

Depends on if the Empire is on the offensive or defensive. After a few years folks may get tired of their children and grandchildren being frog marched to die in expendable frigate #99999 for a planet they've never heard of in a galaxy they barely know exists.

[Trinoya]

The only reason anyone takes the vs. debate seriously using real science, is the Star Wars fanbois who can't understand that they're crushed like an ant under a bootheel,

The whole first post reeks of KSW so I'm gonna take this as one of his generalized statements with no backing. That said:

The reason the debate is taken seriously by people, at least people looking to engage in real debate and not, "MY SIDE WINS," isn't because of the 'fanbois.' It's because there are actually points of contention in both numbers, industry, and technology.

People can claim that one side has won or another but that at the end of the day makes them no better than the ilk who just sit back and claim wongs site is correct. Objectivity is heavily lost to most in these debates, and that's on both sides.

Do I think that pound for pound a federation ship can cream an imperial ship? Yes. Do I know if they could field the numbers or industry required to defeat star wars? No. Do i know if hyperspace could truly make war a joke for one side or the other? Nope.

What I do know is there is enough of a gray area for me that depending on the scenario presented my view changes as to who will win, objectively looking at it and figuring that out is key to the debate in principle.

Just my two cents folks.

[Admiral Breetai]

All depends on the size of the fleet they send and when, since technology is bound to make leaps as exchanges continue. As pointed out, I don't see the Imperials not acquiring tech from the Ferengi or else.

I highly doubt the fereingi would deal with them with their home galaxy yes? but the empire? I'll address that below though as for fleet sizes they'd be between a few ISD's to dozens maybe for the big major offenses hundreds but that's dubious they have a galaxy full of problems and a huge slave population and oppressed masses to quell as well as a rebellion any Sw forces in that number mass any kind of assault on a planet that's of any value and it will be torn to pieces in short order

Heck, they could literally offer one of those other factions a juicy contract to have them build the Empire some typical Trek ships while having access to the imperial industry. Oh sure, things would take time to put into place, but it's not like the UFP would get anywhere before this gets achieved anyway.

who'd do that? besides pine apple heads the Cardassians and some DQ powers? the feds have extremely good PR and as of the end of the last canon st film and voy...the feds are basically the uncontested top dog of the galaxy with the exception of the Dominion who needs to play tech catch up

your also a dealing with a federation who has no problem ramping up their industry and one that has shown through the various deeds of their nefarious shadow groups no problem attempting genocide on any one who dares

[

Torpedo spheres can puncture any matrix of shields that provides a full planetary coverage and the Hoth shields already was offering a good enough protection against Death Squadron.

sounds like a no limits fallacy it can penetrate wars shields fine but if all this thing does is hurl torps at a shield it might get mulched by fed phasers long before it has the chance

The torpedo sphere is built to put holes in shields far above that (although the full coverage planetary shields are rare). They can find the weak spots in shields, same weak spots we know exist on the prison facility's shield from TOS for example.

an outdated shield?

More than the UFP? I doubt it.

what? between Tarkin and his special ed brigade in the death star Ozzle and the idiots who kept botching hoth up after ozzle got neck smushed and every one else we've seen far more stupid Wars commanders

Piet came off as competent for christs sakes and even his secretary was like "ermmm dude this whole trap is a really retarded idea" though I actually thought those two weren't too bad and Tarkins only failing was his arrogance which was well justified considering what his ride was

mind you Janeway and Archer take the fucking cake Riker who some how manages to to be so stupid he suggests pulverizing a moon in decaying orbit despite it being well obvious how lethal that'd turn out and some how manages to nearly blow the enterprise up when ever he's in command and pulled a John Mclane gas trail trap on the Sona..

oh and the Captain of the Odyssey and the captain of the Yamato who despite knowing there was some kind of hyper advanced computer virus from an ancient race infecting his computer totally thought it was cool to hail Picard

you have conversely guys like Edward Jellicho who despite being a total tight ass was a good captain and was the only guy who really seemed to be able to bully the fuck out of the Cardassians..well aside from Picard Sisko though he was more like a trained pitbull then a tactical genius in that Sisko really only knew how to do two things "be nice and kind to family and friends" and "Cardassians!! Dominion go get 'em boy!!" he still seemed rather okay

Worf was kinda stupid but then again his solution to everything was allot more like Sisko's style of "hit it until it begs for mercy or blows up" only with more suicide

Maxwell was not an idiot he went rambo and whooped an ungodly amount of ass but he wasn't stupid and in the end he was completely right in his suspicions and made Fed politicians come off as stupid as all hell. He was ten or twelve kinds of crazy but he wasn't an idiot

hell if anything you take a say fifty fifty ratio with the really competent captains and the dumb asses the only down side to this is that the competent ones tend to go completely insane and go on a roaring rampage of revenge when confronted with brutality...I personally have no issue with this what so ever

but if your an imperial officer and you just nuked some hick world on the edge of fed space that resisted a little too hard and you found the local sector fleet had family there...well shit these space hippies aren't used to this kinda cruelty and completely flipped their shit against the dominion and to the cardassians when they saw it,...one guy went on a one man killing spree of entire fleets

the issue is this..now my ISD battle group has really fast moving mini planet wreckers with obscene range chasing down my slow moving "bruiser" type fleet and I'm pretty sure due to it being a sector fleet it's probably some shitty ass group of mirandas or someshit...okay individually a Miranda vs an ISD is like Bruce Lee vs Mike Tyson or Goerge Foreman...sure the guys gonna put up a pretty sure but in the end he's gonna be missing an ear and half his face will be caved in

problem is..I know now have twenty psychotic Bruce lee's bum rushing my ass

*end rant*

it's gonna be bad no matter how this goes

[

Or that after loosing several ships and battles, they understand that their main problem is one of range against those torpedoes. That problem can be solved.

it'd be more like loosing entire fleets but your right here this will be adapted too and compensated the empire isn't that stupid

It depends on the distance between the torpedo and the ship.
SDs have ranges in the hundreds of kilometers and bolts which can travel at about 10 km/s (from ROTJ). The other factor is how powerful you think the imperial ships are.

it's not just torpedoes it's phasers and you can't flack phasers well you can but it's easily adjusted for with the sensor tech

As for the FTL torps, I'm going to shrugg it off. When have we seen Trek ships reliably shoot torps at FTL speeds against targets flying at STL speeds?

Nemesis Enterprise and iirc voyager if memory serves

Indeed. From bits I found in the EU, it's even possible that imperial shields might prove incapable of stopping most if not all of a phaser beam, based on how SW shields behave against two types of Trek-like disintegrating weapons.

gravitic based particle shielding for the missiles and ray shielding for the energy weapons if my EU lore is up to date

That said, that would be another obvious reason to try to acquire said tech. It's not like disruptors or phasers are secret knowledge. Besides, the Empire wouldn't be suicidal up to the point of throwing its forces if from the first engagement, it would realize that its ships' defenses are as good as if they didn't exist. They're not pushovers.
They'll reconsider their strategy and focus on leveling the playground.

acquiring tech in the trek verse wont be hard acquiring tech on the feds level is another story entirely.aside from one remote example..only one or two races that aren't allied with the Feds have that kinda tech and both would more then gladly...open fire on the Imps one of them may even be extinct and it would be suicide to make a deal with them any ways

oh theres eight four seven two but being psychotic racists about as crazy as the founders I'm pretty sure this will end badly

[

Precisely. The only problem to that is that even if the Empire has those numbers, most of them are used to patrol its own territory against pirate and rebel raids.
On the other hand, the Empire would have enough power and money to encourage some evil force in Trek to work against the UFP.

who at present Dominion aside would likely do nothing of the sort

The flipside of this is that the UFP could really give a boost to the rebels.
But all in all, the UFP has far more to lose than the Empire. The Empire has size and momentum. The technological gap and lack of data about territories, it can gain it from other alien species in Trek interested in war, trade or/and money, while the UFP won't be able to put a deep enough dent into the Empire.

size and momentum? size they barely make use of the same way the feds could momentum I'll give you though

Its unique chance of victory -and this has been clear for quite some time now, at least here- is to strike for Palpatine and his bureaucracy. This can be achieved with mounting a suicide and surprise attack against Coruscant after being sure that Palpatine is there, while continuously flying at warp for years. The problem being that ships at warp don't leave realspace, they just bend it. So they do leave a trace of their passage and their direction.

or you can just drop a line to s31 and let them star bust

It's quite sure that if those UFOs get detected and seen headed for the Core Worlds, the Empire as a whole will get more than a litle suspicious. You may literally think that Palpatine will move to a more secure place until this gets solved.

why would SW sensors detect warp moving vessels?

Now, back to those questions of territorial fighting.
If the Empire ever was to manage to settle a beachhead on the fringe of the UFP, and if a planetary shield would get established, as the Empire is well ahead of the UFP when it comes to ground units, it could easily hold it.

starfleet marines suck because their capital ships can snipe out germs from orbit...

the Federation does not need an army by our terms

The UFP could try doing the same and bust would have to seriously rework its entire concept of ground control. It would also have to deal with the problem of torpedo spheres and even perhaps a Death Star, depending on when this would take place.

storm troopers and mechanized vehicles will go down hard to phasers

Not against the ships, but against the surface targets. Those would be suicide missions.
Well, at first.
Again, with the most expected leveling of the tech gap, things would soon turn very grim for the UFP.

trying to glass planets may not be very smart even the Dominion knew better then to play mass destruction game with the federation and they had a knee jerk emotional reaction so severe to the feds that it seemed at times it was a "must kill my reflection" type battle for them

I don't think the imps would ever get that emotionally invested beyond "raid steel epic tech and sit fat and comfy in our own galaxy" well at least any one but sidious

The Empire is also humanity... and much more. Seriously, what do ou think the Ferengi will do when they're promised all new markets and lands to exploit and explore?
The Ferengi are very schemy and few of them have actually appeared friendly towards the UFP. The Ferengi like money. They do business and they've been shown to sell weapons to any side ready to buy it. Even Quark, one of the most open Ferengi towards the UFP, restricted his bar to filter out any UFP customer at some point.
They'll be responsible of UFP's problems, among other things, and there's nothing which can be done against that aside from running false flag attacks on the worlds of the Ferengi Alliance or its ships, and propose to protect their lands, ships and trade from Imperial activity if they cut all contacts with the Empire.

The empire is a hyper racist anti xeno organization who's industrial base makes use of slaves from all over the Galaxy slavery which is an extreme cultural taboo amongst the Ferengi to the extent that Quark got extremely indignant when Sisko dared to pass judgement on his people with Rom in charge now the odds of them doing anything of the sort when Rom is creating a more modern society and is very pro fed is really low

mind you I have no problem what so ever seeing the Fereingi making deals with the hutts and the Rebellion at all in fact it would be an excellent PR move for the Ferengi to move in on the rebellion "Fereingars new face lift now we're making a proft and valiantly defending humans and non humans of many different races in a galaxy far away from mass genocide and oppression!!"

the Orion syndicate might do what your suggesting though
[

This has literally no chance to happen and is just all too bound to mistakes. Not to say that if they grab the rabbit, the Ferengi will be twice nastier against the UFP.

the empire is not a good business partner especially considering who's presently in charge

Frankly, time is something the Empire has. It's just too vast, and if the UFP attacks, it will all go to the Empire's benefit, as it will have a new enemy against which all can unite, and that, my friend, is something priceless to any sick government.
It's going to be tough for the rebellion to retain their support when their most friendly worlds will see their populaces suddenly coil in fear because of those unknown terrorists. And if the Rebellion were to band with the UFP, the Empire would have an opportunity to paint them as galacic traitors.

not really they don't have that kind of time at all considering how radical the feds tech progression became post voyager and how utterly ruthless S31 is as for rallying support? it's very hard to beat fed propaganda when all they have to do is park a ship in orbit over a very poor outer rim world and then suddenly hand them magic "make anything I need" devices and they start selling plentary engineering tech and stuff

"we can feed you we can eliminate everything that was the core reason the republic and empire exploited you and we'll do it just because it's the right thing to do and if you tell us to fuck off after words we'll go leaving with the satisfaction that we did the morally correct thing regardless of the out come"

you can't buy publicity like this and you can't keep a lid on it either especially in a dump like the outer rim and some other imperial controlled areas if the movies are any indication

Meanwhile, the UFP would have to make huge efforts to spread a propaganda of some utopic friendly and free society that welcomes anyone.

"we defeated religious terrorists and are currently protecting the galaxy from evil traitors Xeno illuminatis and extra galactic threats"

"we'll give you the means to become totally self sufficient for no other reason then we like being nice, we have invaded worlds that have committed bitter atrocities against us then helped resurrect them from war torn famine doom and bankruptcy then left and tried to make peace..we have extended our hand in charity to our mortal enemies the Romulans and they accepted we rebuffed a universal threat from an entirely separate dimension took out The Borg a species who's only interest was cosmic domination and brought the Dominion to it's knees a species that is just as bad as the empire and we did all this because 1, they decided to mess with us we rarely seek out conflict but wont shy away from it 2, because letting such dangerous beings do what ever they want is cowardly and evil in and of itself"

they have excellent propaganda

The Empire could probably pull a false flag a thousand times better than the UFP could, far more effective. They're more pragmatic and evil, and obviously capable of doing so.

why?

Possibly.

oh I don't doubt that

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Heroheeto, I am confused as to why one of your first posts was that you proved "again and again" something, when you just joined a few hours prior.

Star Wars is old-hat sci-fi, using the old tech involving lasers and fusion etc. which came about with radio-shows and comic-books.

Clearly you are debating based on pseudoscience. Lasers and fusion are not old tech, nor are they silly tech, they are technological concepts grounded in reality.

In contrast, Star Trek still uses stupid organic technology and hails it as being stronger than 'standard' technology, while using unscientific phasers and making stupid term mistakes such as "gigawatts per second".

But this hardly matters. What matters is performance, and Star Wars has the advantage here. Their weapons are more powerful (gigatons vs megatons), their shields are more powerful (teratons vs megatons), their FTL speeds are far higher (10's million vs 10's thousands) and their industry is far larger (millions of worlds vs hundreds of worlds).

All of these are supported by author's fiat, canon facts. The only rebuttal to the ICS's, Technical Journels, novels like Star Wars: Slave Ship, etc are to whine about them being inconsistent with the rest of Star Wars (even though the mandalorians 4000 years before the movies were using gigaton level nuclear weapons, and a quote from a reputable character stated that star destroyers can devastate an unshielded world by turning stones into liquid and such) or non canon (even though they're happy to take TCW as canon; some pro Trek members go as far as to put the cartoons over the film novels).

Star Trek was in a class by itself, based on far more advanced technology and science, as is plain to see.

Far more advanced? You mean like how they blabber on about "quantum singularities" when singularities are by definition quantum?

The only reason anyone takes the vs. debate seriously using real science, is the Star Wars fanbois who can't understand that they're crushed like an ant under a bootheel, and there are LOTS of them-- and they're too dumb to figure it out.
Wong is just the queen of the colony, and he's good at wanking up figures and stats to fool the ignorant; but anyone who's capable of abstract reasoning can prove him wrong with a single fact, as I have on several occasions.
In short, they simply believe their own bullshit; but for that same reason it's impossible to CONVINCE them that they're wrong-- i.e. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

That's why no one here debates them on SDN; but as for those who try bringing it here, like starwarsvsstartrek, it's equally farcical.

There, I said it.

This is why nobody debates it. Because people like you refuse to provide any logical argument that does not have logical fallacies or a complete lack of support for it.

All I see above is a series of unsupported claims. Prove that Star Wars would be crushed like insects when they can casually turn the upper crust of a planet to slag (based on NUMEROUS canon sources). Prove that the Federation could even reach any major Star Wars planet when it would take them decades to get to Coruscant if they were to start from the outer rim. Explain how the Federation defends against star destroyers popping out of hyperspace and BDZing shieldless planets and jumping away, while their comparatively slow warp drives still have years to go before they reach any major Star Wars planet.

[Admiral Breetai]

"prove that your claims are valid"

hey SWST how about you prove using only the films that the EU fire power levels are even valid