Star Wars vs Star Trek shields

[Mike DiCenso]

Except that people have shown you time and time again in this thread and numerous others why Wong is wrong. Or rather why his assumptions are a falsehood and scam. You have chosen to ignore all of that.
-Mike

[mojo]

which is in itself another example of swst breaking the golden rule. and come on, man! BEING OBTUSE ON PURPOSE VIOLATES THE SPIRIT OF JMS' ONE GODDAMN RULE. and you know it.

[User1619]

Mike's past calculations are not what I am arguing. Mike might be wrong on every other calculation he ever made, but that does not affect this one. I gave the link; if his calculations are flawed, you can point them out and show how. Otherwise, you are saying that his calculations are wrong, and refusing to even read them, despite them being right in front of them.

@Breentai:

Feats are all that matter? Mike's calculation was USiNG a feat!

Now anybody from here please point out any errors in THIS calculation of Mike's. Did he make bad assumptions? Misinterpreted dialogue? What did he do wrong?

You've just proven that you don't understand abstracts, and so there's no way to explain it to you.

[User1619]

which is in itself another example of swst breaking the golden rule. and come on, man! BEING OBTUSE ON PURPOSE VIOLATES THE SPIRIT OF JMS' ONE GODDAMN RULE. and you know it.

And it's intellectually dishonest-- like everything about SDN's philosophy of "winning the argument by any means..." which precludes intellectual honesty.

The problem with online debate is that it's objectively limited by the debater's intellectual ability, and subjectively limited by his intellectual honesty; and when they're delibrerately obstuse then that violates both.
So there's no point in even addressing their arguments, since they're intellectually bankrupt in every way; I was even considering being a neutral moderator between Wong and Darkstar, when I realized that Wong was so psycho that he simple would accuse me of being biased, demand my personal information and refuse the offer if I didn't give it (or publicize if if I did) etc.
You just can't deal with such an intellectual deadbeat.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Except that people have shown you time and time again in this thread and numerous others why Wong is wrong. Or rather why his assumptions are a falsehood and scam. You have chosen to ignore all of that.
-Mike

No, you don't get it. Your response to my link of Mike's calculations are claims as to how Mike's Death Star calculations and such are wrong, which are completely unrelated to the calculation in front of you.

We're talking about a calculation for ST. The link is in the OP. I invite you to look over it and find any misinterpretations, math errors, etc that you can find. Discounting a calculation you have easy access to because of past, unrelated calculations is like a math teacher marking a student's test an F because the student received an F in all previous tests.

If you did not have the calculations and were simply told that he calculated 30 megatons, you would be right in being skeptical. Ad hominems in circumstances might be applicable in that case. But when you can easily view and analyze the calculation right in front of you, you no longer have to speculate on whether or not it's valid or not. If it's invalid, you can easily prove so by reading the calculations and showing where it's wrong!

[User1619]

Except that people have shown you time and time again in this thread and numerous others why Wong is wrong. Or rather why his assumptions are a falsehood and scam. You have chosen to ignore all of that.
-Mike

No, you don't get it. Your response to my link of Mike's calculations are claims as to how Mike's Death Star calculations and such are wrong, which are completely unrelated to the calculation in front of you.

We're talking about a calculation for ST. The link is in the OP. I invite you to look over it and find any misinterpretations, math errors, etc that you can find. Discounting a calculation you have easy access to because of past, unrelated calculations is like a math teacher marking a student's test an F because the student received an F in all previous tests.

If you did not have the calculations and were simply told that he calculated 30 megatons, you would be right in being skeptical. Ad hominems in circumstances might be applicable in that case. But when you can easily view and analyze the calculation right in front of you, you no longer have to speculate on whether or not it's valid or not. If it's invalid, you can easily prove so by reading the calculations and showing where it's wrong!

No, YOU don't get it. In fact you flunk debate forever. The guy is a broken clock, a proven intellectual deadbeat and sore loser in denial; that's valid impeachment-evidence of his testimony regardless of whether he's stuck on "12:30" and it just happens to be that time of day.

If YOU have an argument, then present it; but we're not obliged to go digging when you flip out a link and tell us to play he said-she said. We're not your stooges. If you are a Wong-wanker then that's your problem not ours; we're talking to YOU not him.

[Mike DiCenso]

Except that people have shown you time and time again in this thread and numerous others why Wong is wrong. Or rather why his assumptions are a falsehood and scam. You have chosen to ignore all of that.
-Mike

No, you don't get it. Your response to my link of Mike's calculations are claims as to how Mike's Death Star calculations and such are wrong, which are completely unrelated to the calculation in front of you.

We're talking about a calculation for ST. The link is in the OP. I invite you to look over it and find any misinterpretations, math errors, etc that you can find. Discounting a calculation you have easy access to because of past, unrelated calculations is like a math teacher marking a student's test an F because the student received an F in all previous tests.

If you did not have the calculations and were simply told that he calculated 30 megatons, you would be right in being skeptical. Ad hominems in circumstances might be applicable in that case. But when you can easily view and analyze the calculation right in front of you, you no longer have to speculate on whether or not it's valid or not. If it's invalid, you can easily prove so by reading the calculations and showing where it's wrong!

Good lord. Are you actively trying to troll or provoke people when you write stuff like that above? Seriously, the whole issue was answered by myself and several other people, in this thread with regards as to why Wong's assumptions were incorrect, perhaps even deliberately so regarding the calculations for ST shields.

The biggest and most obvious mistake he makes in his assumptions is that the star in "Descent, Part 2" is exactly like Sol, that it is a G-type star, and he attempts to handwave away the 12,000 C temperature of the hull so that he can continue on with that logical fallacy.

Do you not understand this? Did you not see the postings I and others made regarding this and other issues with his assumptions and invalidate the calculations made?
-Mike

[mojo]

Except that people have shown you time and time again in this thread and numerous others why Wong is wrong. Or rather why his assumptions are a falsehood and scam. You have chosen to ignore all of that.
-Mike

No, you don't get it. Your response to my link of Mike's calculations are claims as to how Mike's Death Star calculations and such are wrong, which are completely unrelated to the calculation in front of you.

We're talking about a calculation for ST. The link is in the OP. I invite you to look over it and find any misinterpretations, math errors, etc that you can find. Discounting a calculation you have easy access to because of past, unrelated calculations is like a math teacher marking a student's test an F because the student received an F in all previous tests.

If you did not have the calculations and were simply told that he calculated 30 megatons, you would be right in being skeptical. Ad hominems in circumstances might be applicable in that case. But when you can easily view and analyze the calculation right in front of you, you no longer have to speculate on whether or not it's valid or not. If it's invalid, you can easily prove so by reading the calculations and showing where it's wrong!

Good lord. Are you actively trying to troll or provoke people when you write stuff like that above? Seriously, the whole issue was answered by myself and several other people, in this thread with regards as to why Wong's assumptions were incorrect, perhaps even deliberately so regarding the calculations for ST shields.

The biggest and most obvious mistake he makes in his assumptions is that the star in "Descent, Part 2" is exactly like Sol, that it is a G-type star, and he attempts to handwave away the 12,000 C temperature of the hull so that he can continue on with that logical fallacy.

Do you not understand this? Did you not see the postings I and others made regarding this and other issues with his assumptions and invalidate the calculations made?
-Mike

HE SEES FUCKING LIGHT. OF FUCKING COURSE HE IS TROLLING. that's what we've been saying. ALL THIS TIME.

[Admiral Breetai]

@Breentai:

Feats are all that matter? Mike's calculation was USiNG a feat!

no he didn't if he did he'd of gotten kiloton level fire power for the asteroid scene as opposed to what ever the fuck bullshit he got...

the man makes a fuckton of assumptions allows his obvious pro wars biased to influence him and as such as my right as a poster I will refuse to accept his or any DOW calc ever..and demand a strict adherence to the feats yes it's a double standard but you know what? you and your kind absolutely deserve it for the near constant lies and out right insanity the trolling the misdirection and complete ignorance

And it's intellectually dishonest-- like everything about SDN's philosophy of "winning the argument by any means..." which precludes intellectual honesty.

The problem with online debate is that it's objectively limited by the debater's intellectual ability, and subjectively limited by his intellectual honesty; and when they're delibrerately obstuse then that violates both.
So there's no point in even addressing their arguments, since they're intellectually bankrupt in every way; I was even considering being a neutral moderator between Wong and Darkstar, when I realized that Wong was so psycho that he simple would accuse me of being biased, demand my personal information and refuse the offer if I didn't give it (or publicize if if I did) etc.
You just can't deal with such an intellectual deadbeat.

Mojo I think this guy just called us smarter and more intellectually honest than wong and SWST heh heh

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Good lord. Are you actively trying to troll or provoke people when you write stuff like that above? Seriously, the whole issue was answered by myself and several other people, in this thread with regards as to why Wong's assumptions were incorrect, perhaps even deliberately so regarding the calculations for ST shields.

Nowhere here does anybody even attempt to refute the Relics calculation of 30 megatons. Some have tried with the Descent one, and others with the completely irrelevant Death Star claims.

The biggest and most obvious mistake he makes in his assumptions is that the star in "Descent, Part 2" is exactly like Sol, that it is a G-type star, and he attempts to handwave away the 12,000 C temperature of the hull so that he can continue on with that logical fallacy.

I did not use the Descent figure because it was too low. I am using the Relic calculation. Now explain to me the inaccuracies of that one, will you?

Do you not understand this? Did you not see the postings I and others made regarding this and other issues with his assumptions and invalidate the calculations made?
-Mike

No, because none of your rebuttals relate to the calculation that actually matters, the 30 megaton one. I have reviewed, it, and it does not appear as though there are any mistakes or errors in the calculation. However, I may have missed something, so do you spot any inconsistencies?

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

From what i remember in Relics they approach the star and manage to get into a 150k km orbit and it is not until they see they are heading into a large and intense solar flare that picard orders shields and Worf activates them while informing him that they are gimped due to the damage, at 23% i think.

Now im sure Wang not only gimps the star by claiming it is weaker but also ignores the fact that they were initially orbiting at 150,000km without shields but also says that they never flew through a solar flare when it was the fact they were gonna fly into one that they raised the shields in the first place.

The approach the star and achieve orbit and at no point are shields raised even after they get in orbit and Riker buggers off to "fix main power" ect.

(Cuts to geordie and scotty for a bit).

So after cutting back and obviously after being in orbit for some time we (after a bit of chat) are directed to the view screen showing a violent solar flare directly ahead:

DATA: "It is a solar flare captain magnitude 12 class b".

PICARD: Shields.

(Worf presses controls on tactical and Activates shields)

WORF: Shields are up but only at 23%.

DATA: The star has entered a period of increased activity, sensors indicate the solar flares will continue to grow, in 3 hours our shields will no longer be sufficient to protect us sir.

Ok so what kind of a idiot claims the solar flares were not hitting the ship when:

1. We see them heading directly into one (pretty conclusive).

2. Heading into one is the reason they raise shields (clearly stated and seen).

3. They USE the increasing activity of the solar flares to calculate how long the shields are now going to last (i mean if they are not hitting the ship why are they the reason given that in 3 hours the shields will fail).

Oh that's right a wangite kind of idiot...

[Mike DiCenso]

Nowhere here does anybody even attempt to refute the Relics calculation of 30 megatons. Some have tried with the Descent one, and others with the completely irrelevant Death Star claims.

No, because none of your rebuttals relate to the calculation that actually matters, the 30 megaton one. I have reviewed, it, and it does not appear as though there are any mistakes or errors in the calculation. However, I may have missed something, so do you spot any inconsistencies?

This is a lie, plain and simple. I will remind you one last time from page 1:

Nice of you to cherrypick once again. "Skin of Evil" and "For the Uniform" both show quantum torpedoes are capable of making explosions hundreds of km wide as I would remind you that Nowhereman and others pointed all this out to you already and you have once again chosen to ignore and misrepresent. We're not talking double-digit megatons, but triple and quadruple digit. I believe Nowhereman's calcs placed "For the Uniform" at around 500-1,000 MT based on a 220 km diameter fireball. The E-D could tank at least four or more torpedoes, this would place shields well into the low gigaton range (2-4 gigatons).

Also once again you are horribly misrepresenting "The Pegasus" as it has long been pointed out to you in previous threads that not only was the asteroid 9 x 6.5 km, but the whole mostly hollow fallcy was debunked a long time ago as well, too. The volume of the asteroid was estimated around 448,920,500,228 cubic meters. The tunnel the E-D was in being several km deep and about 700 meters wide would be around a billion cubic meters, or less than one percent of the asteroid's total volume. Even five or six such fissures would not make an appreciable dent in the volume of rock.

Assumptions fallacies. You go with the 2-3 MT torpedo yeild based on... what? That the Pegasus asteroid was shattered, when as Picard properly points out, vaporization of the asteroid would be the desired outcome given what we know from "Rise", where we hear than a nickel-iron asteroid would be expected to be vaporized under normal circumstances. It would be the least to expect in "The Pegasus", especially since Riker's goal is to deny the trapped starship inside the asteroid to the Romulans and to Admiral Pressman. So total destruction is required here. Thus the energy per torpedo goes up by many orders of magnitude. The melt energy alone is 561.1 gigatons, or 2.24 gigatons per torpedo, assuming all 250 torpedoes are expended in the effort. However Riker clearly says that it would "take most of our photon torpedoes", not all of them. So 2.24 gigatons is very much a lower limit here. This is well in line with the yeilds obtained from "For the Uniform" and "Skin of Evil", and would place the E-D's shields around 7 gigatons.

As for the calculations you linked to. It was nice of you to not show the SBC calcs in their proper context. Going back through the one thread about the " Allegiance" pulsar incident, several people pointed out that the numbers were too low given the emission lines of the pulsar are shown sweeping over the E-D. This occurs in the episode at least every other second, which would dramatically raise up the shield strength by several orders of magnitude.

Also, the lower limits from "Allegiance" is at odds with later numbers, and is well below what Voyager tanks when it flies point-blank between two close pulsars in "Scientific Method".

But since you like linking to other people's work, I'll link to one of mine. TryGraham Kennedy's shield calcs on for size.

67,000 TJs as a minium for heavily damaged shields at 23 percent of auxilury power. At full power, the shields would be capable of 69.5 MT, or more than twice Wong's lower estimate.

See how that works?

Also Wong made some critical errors, failing to note that the E-D's hull was heated to 12,000 degrees C while approaching the star in "Descent, Part 2", while also ignoring in "Relics" how the E-D was actually directly exposed to abnormal matter expulsions and energetic solar flares. All of which change the outcome of any calcs.

Address this rebuttal and Graham Kennedy's calculations I linked to, or I will cite you with a warning for dishonest debating behavior. Pretending to be obtuse while feigning politeness will only get you so far here.

To everyone else, cool it on the insults and language, or SWST won't be the only ones getting warnings here. I know what the game is, but you guys don't need to fall for it every time and make matters worse.
-Mike

[StarWarsStarTrek]

99.99%, figuratively, of your quote was NOT related to the Relic calculation.

But I admit that I missed this part:

while also ignoring in "Relics" how the E-D was actually directly exposed to abnormal matter expulsions and energetic solar flares.

Please provide context/sources/elaboration on these "energic solar flares" and "abnormal matter expulsions". Also, Mike Wong took into account the fact that the ship's shields were already down to about 20%. Does that account for these things?



And "dishonest debating behavior"? I once requested evidence from Breentai (in a separate thread). The response was (and I am not lying nor taking quotes out of context):

You know

One of Breentai's posts admits that he's using a double standard, but that it's ok because "us warsies deserve it."

I have asked for evidence before, and what I get is (not paraphrased):

lol

[Mike DiCenso]

I remind you of Kor's posting before mine, which you have ignored as well:

From what i remember in Relics they approach the star and manage to get into a 150k km orbit and it is not until they see they are heading into a large and intense solar flare that picard orders shields and Worf activates them while informing him that they are gimped due to the damage, at 23% i think.

Now im sure Wang not only gimps the star by claiming it is weaker but also ignores the fact that they were initially orbiting at 150,000km without shields but also says that they never flew through a solar flare when it was the fact they were gonna fly into one that they raised the shields in the first place.

The approach the star and achieve orbit and at no point are shields raised even after they get in orbit and Riker buggers off to "fix main power" ect.

(Cuts to geordie and scotty for a bit).

So after cutting back and obviously after being in orbit for some time we (after a bit of chat) are directed to the view screen showing a violent solar flare directly ahead:

DATA: "It is a solar flare captain magnitude 12 class b".

PICARD: Shields.

(Worf presses controls on tactical and Activates shields)

WORF: Shields are up but only at 23%.

DATA: The star has entered a period of increased activity, sensors indicate the solar flares will continue to grow, in 3 hours our shields will no longer be sufficient to protect us sir.

Ok so what kind of a idiot claims the solar flares were not hitting the ship when:

1. We see them heading directly into one (pretty conclusive).

2. Heading into one is the reason they raise shields (clearly stated and seen).

3. They USE the increasing activity of the solar flares to calculate how long the shields are now going to last (i mean if they are not hitting the ship why are they the reason given that in 3 hours the shields will fail).

Oh that's right a wangite kind of idiot...

Please note the dialog. The star was entering into a period of massive solar flares. Kor forgot to add this prior bit of dialog:

DATA: The sphere appears to be abandoned. Sensors show that the star is extremely unstable. It is experiencing severe bursts of radiation and matter expulsions.

This is very unsual behavior for a G-type star given that white-yellow dwarfs, like our sun are among the most stable stars on the main sequence. Even if it were normal, it shows that Wong did not follow the episode details too closely, either because of dishonesty or because he obtained the information second hand, and did nothing to verify his facts before making his assumptions.

So what we have:

1.) The G-type star inside the Dyson Sphere is experiancing a period of massive instability.

2.) Massive solar flares are observed and the E-D even heads into one or several of them as seen here:







So given these facts, most importantly that the star was actually overly energetic and the E-D was not simply being exposed to a norma steady-state output, Wong's assumptions are now largely rendered worthless as a result. The fact that he largely hand-waves away all the confounding variables to try to present a case for weak Star Trek technology shows his blatent dishonesty.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

One of Breentai's posts admits that he's using a double standard, but that it's ok because "us warsies deserve it."

Breetai has been given fair warning about his behavior, and if you check his warning status, he has at least one or more registered. You may have also missed where I gave out the general warning to all parties involved.
-Mike