Calculating shot yield from momentum

[Mr. Oragahn]

http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Beam/Calc1.html

This document represents an attempt to quantify the energy involved in the sudden angular acceleration of the Millenium Falcon after being hit by a turbolaser or laser blast in "The Empire Strikes Back". The basic assumption is that turbolasers use mass-less particles. If the particles in a TL bolt do not carry mass, then their momentum can be calculated using the equations for the momentum of light, and their power levels can be estimated from the kinetic effect upon the Millenium Falcon.

Results end with the MF being able to withstand up to a couple of tens of megatons of firepower.

Is this why, among other things, they're denying the flak (and book supported) nature of bolts?

[Praeothmin]

Results end with the MF being able to withstand up to a couple of tens of megatons of firepower.

Actually, if you go by the conservative estimate (bolt duration of 1/15th of a second, instead of 1/30th), that comes up to around 3 Gtons (with 1.5 hittong the falcon, the other half being expelled in space).

The first time I looked at that page. it reminded me of the unshielded bird of prey that was hit by a photon torpedo in ST VI:TUC.
The bird of prey was already rotating, but the torpedo hit doubled its angular speed.
I did some very loose calculations, and the torpedo wound up hitting with close to 25 Gtons. And it took 5 of those torpedoes to destroy the craft.
And in ST: Generations, the Ent-D destroyed the same kind of vessel with only one torpedo, which led me to believe that torpedoes at the time the TNG were almost 5 times as powerful as those of Kirk's era.

Of course, I wasn't that confortable with the calculations, and I had to grossly estimate the size of the Bird of Prey, the distance of its rotation and its gross mass.
If someone confortable with these kinds of calculations could do the math, I would feel much more confident in the results.

Nonetheless, whether my calculations are on the dot or not, it still gives us a very high end firepower figure for TOS and TNG era photon torpedoes.

[Mike DiCenso]

A very similar thing occurs in TNG's "Preemptive Strike", where the E-D fires several "warning shots" at Maquis ships attacking a Cardassian Galor class warship. Only in this case, the torpedoes indirectly hit the Maquis using proximity blasts, but are still able to impart a significant amount KE to the ships. I don't believe anyone has done any calculations on that event.

At any rate, Praeothmin, could you post your calculations here, or link to where they can be found?
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

At any rate, Praeothmin, could you post your calculations here, or link to where they can be found

I'll try, but first I have to find them again.
They were done on the only paper available to me when I felt like doing the calcs... pink post-its... :)
It took me two of them, and I don't know if I still have them, the calcs were done almost two years ago... when I was young and naive (to the ST vs SW debate that is... :) ).

[Socar]

There's also the scene from Way of the Warrior where the Defiant fires on a Bird of Prey and causes it to go spinning out of control with a single hit.

[2046]

The main problem with the idea of using that for Trek is mass-lightening. After all, very weak weapons have shaken the E-D ("Conundrum", for instance).

Star Wars has a similar issue (theoretically) with repulsorlifts and such. However, the main problem with Wong's conclusion is the massless particles bit. As we now have confirmed in the canon (RotS novel), blasters and turbolasers fire some sort of radioactive particles.

[Praeothmin]

The main problem with the idea of using that for Trek is mass-lightening. After all, very weak weapons have shaken the E-D ("Conundrum", for instance).

Well, when I think of similar exemples for Trek, I think of the instances where we actually see the ships being moved when looking at them from the exterior, and not just the shockwaves experienced by the crew of said ships when seen from the inside.

And do we really have canon evidence supporting the "mass-lightening" impulse engines in Trek, aside from the Tech manual which isn't canon?

[GStone]

I forget the name of it, but it's the TNG ep where Picard takes a shuttlepod and helps guide the Enterprise through a region of space with these rock shaped parts that drain energy or just pretty much screw things around (one crewman fell through the floor and died, the furniture in the observation lounge was rearranged). Anyway, he skims one of these spots and there was energy drainage or damage or something and Geordie tells Picard that there's a problem with the field coils and we see a partially see through view from the outside of one of those tubes along the bottom and he's got problems with his propulsion. The only thing we've heard about with propulsion and field coils are the warp engines and how they make things within the fields they generate lighter, so it can be pushed (Deja-Q). And, because we've never heard or seen anything that says shuttlepods can go FTL or even just warp 1, the field coils on the shuttlepod is probably mass lightening, especially since we see no emissions from shuttlepods either.

[SailorSaturn13]

Problem: sparks.
So either
1) TLs are not massless and hence calcs are moot, or
2) a significant quantity of hull is vaped, giving momentum and making calcs even more moot.


Also note:

only 3.902E8(400 MJ) were actually added to Falcon where is the rest of energy?. Did it go in space, meaning that the DET equivalent of a shot is 400MJ, or was it used for vapourisation and hencefore created additional momentum?

[Mike DiCenso]

At any rate, Praeothmin, could you post your calculations here, or link to where they can be found

I'll try, but first I have to find them again.
They were done on the only paper available to me when I felt like doing the calcs... pink post-its... :)
It took me two of them, and I don't know if I still have them, the calcs were done almost two years ago... when I was young and naive (to the ST vs SW debate that is... :) ).

If you could find them, and post the work, it'd be really nice. Or, if at all possible, you could duplicate the work, it'd also be much appreciated. :)
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

The main problem with the idea of using that for Trek is mass-lightening. After all, very weak weapons have shaken the E-D ("Conundrum", for instance).

Star Wars has a similar issue (theoretically) with repulsorlifts and such. However, the main problem with Wong's conclusion is the massless particles bit. As we now have confirmed in the canon (RotS novel), blasters and turbolasers fire some sort of radioactive particles.

Well, I would characterize the Trek situation as one where we don't know when mass-lightening is being used. After all, in ST3:TSFS, the E-1701 backs out at a very low relatively slow rate of acceleration and speed compared to prior and following examples. The same is true for TNG, DS9, VOY, and ST:ENT on occasion.

Wong originally made the the SW calcs to show that if TLs were lasers (he did not say at first that they were), that it would take 31,000 TJ of energy to impart as much KE as it did to the Falcon. Since then, it seems those calcs have been abused with the assumption that TL are 7 megatons or greater at minimum.

Another thing: unlike TL, we know more or less what photon torpedoes are. They are matter-antimatter bombs that produce mostly gamma rays and photons in the initial instant of the explosion. Therefore applying the massless particle assumption to them is quite reasonable, no matter the apparent mass of the target vessel.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Praeothmin wrote:
And do we really have canon evidence supporting the "mass-lightening" impulse engines in Trek, aside from the Tech manual which isn't canon?

By indirect inference. The fact that subspace fields (read warp fields), can reduce the mass of a trillions of tonnes asteroid ("Deja Q" [TNG3]), or a millions of metric ton space station ("The Emissary" [DS91]) so that it can move at a decent fraction of c across the Bajoran solar system speaks of the possibility, if not the actual use of such a system. Also in a number of cases we have very massive starships moving at a high fraction of c far beyond the energes possible by fusion, or even antimatter-matter annhilation (the E-1701's Earth-Jupiter run in ST:TMP, for example).
-Mike

[Jedi Master Spock]

"Deja Q" is very explicit in telling us that warp fields reduce inertial mass, supposedly by reducing the local gravitational coefficient, by a very large percentage.

So we can apply an momentum measurement based on the massless particle model only if (a) we know by what large percentage the mass is reduced or (b) no warp field is present. I recommend looking for instances in which the warp core or the drive system are offline, or inert hulks/objects.

[Mike DiCenso]

In that case I would recommend "The Doomsday Machine" [TOS2], as the Constellation and Enterprise are both without warp drive, though both still have impulse engines, and by default at least some mass-lightening.

Another potential example would be found in TNG's "Evolution": the ship is rendered helpless with a rapid series of nanite-induced malfunctions early in the episode. All the E-D's drive systems are off-line, and the ship falls in toward a stream of matter between a neutron star and red giant sun. Interestingly enough, when some control of the ship is established, the ship's impulse engines are used to try and overcome the inertia, but it is too late. The ship and it's engines seem to behave exactly as they should according to Newtonian mechanics with the E-D actually turning around on it's Z axis, and pointing the main impulse engine in direction opposite of the velocity vector.
-Mike