Phase cannons

[Lucky]

Silent Enemy(Episode)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y1VXp98qGo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pfuXdhk6m4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9t5Hb1L2iI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXn2UF8UhJI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cp5s1KaTcM

Phase cannon information
"This, ladies and gentlemen is a phase modulated energy weapon. It's rated for a maximum power output of 500 gigajoules. Enterprise was designed to carry three of them, we have one, and it's only a prototype."


"What were you trying to do?"
"Bypass the EPS grid."
"Why?"
"Well we could draw power for the cannons directly from the impulse engines."
"Are you trying to make this blow up in your face?"
"The relays were rated to handle that much power."
"What if there's a surge?"
"I've thought of that, these inverters were designed to cut in at the first sign of an overload"
"We've got to do this by the book, or we'll end up blowing a bigger hole in ourselves then the bad guys"
"I've done a dozen simulations, it's an expectable risk"
"When it comes to modifying ship systems why don't you let the chief engineer decide what is an expectable risk."
"Sir, if we do this by the book those aliens are likely to be back before we're done."
"I wanna get this job done as quickly as you do lieutenant, but not if it means taking shortcuts that could get our people killed"
"Yes sir."


"Have you still got those guns of yours hooked up to the impulse engines?"
"I'm just disconnecting them now."
"Hang on a minute, you're sure this will work?"
"Yes commander I am"
"Then based on the recommendation of the armory officer, the chief engineer finds the level of risk expectable."
"In that case, if the chief engineer wouldn't mind getting his hands dirty I could use some help."


"Archer to lieutenant Reed, have you got a lock?"
"Yes captain"
"Let's start small, shave a couple meters off the top of that peak."
"Acquiring the target. Full power to the primary coils, phase cannons 1 and 2 standing by."
"Mr.Reed the honor is all yours. I just asked for a little off the top."
"Check the cannons and be careful down there. That blast yield was 10 times what we expected."
"What happened?"
"Something overloaded the phase modulators."


"The plasma recoil blew out relays across decks C and D."


"Mr.Reed, both cannons, fire."
"I'm reading a fluctuation in their shields, but it's marginal."
"Is that the best we can do lieutenant?"
"Even if these cannons had been installed at Jupiter station they wouldn't be any more effective then they are now."
"What about yesterday, I saw you blow something up the size of Mount McKinley?"
"Yes sir, but that was do to an overload."
"Can you overload them again?"
"After the damage from the first time the plasma recoil will probable knock out two decks."
"Can you overload then again?"
"I believe so."
"I'd rather knock out two decks then surrender this ship."
"But sir..."
"Hold on a minute, I think there's a way to handle the recoil."
"How?"
"All that excess energy gotta go somewhere, why not put it to use? If we re-polarize the gravity plating to absorb the recoil then we can shunt the energy to structural integrity."
"Sounds good to me."
"The grav plating wasn't designed to with stand that much force."
"We all understand the risks get started."


The Alien device that caused the overload information.
"There, what's that?"
"You think that's what's causing the power surge?"
"It's very likely. It's putting out a tremendous amount of energy, over 600 megajoules."
"Their toying with us. They want us to know they can destroy us when ever they want even with our own weapons."
"What ever it is, it is tapped into most of our systems including internal sensors and communications on every deck."
__________

Phase Cannons are designed to have an out put of 500 gigajoules.

The Phase Cannons are powered directly from the impulse engines. This would mean a phase cannon's output would in theory only be limited by how much energy it could receive from the impulse engines.

The alien device overloaded the phase modulators rather then the phase cannons.

The blast yield rather then the output was stated to be 10 times what was expected when the phase modulators were overloaded. We are never told what the phase cannon output was.

The targeted "mountain" was compared specifically to Mount McKinley implying there were similarities between the two when it came to size in some way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_McKinley

The alien device when seemingly inert was putting out over 600 megajoules. This statement seems oddly vague for a Vulcan to give.

It appears as if the NX-1 may have a structural integrity field of some sort like later Star Fleet vessels.

I'm confused by what they could mean by "plasma recoil"?



Did I miss anything?

It would be interesting to see how large the moon/asteroid in the visuals was if we assume the mountain was about the size of Mount McKinley. I lack the know how, and possibly the proper programs to do such a thing.

[Praeothmin]

A few corrections:

We are never told what the phase cannon output was.

Yes we are, they say right here:

This, ladies and gentlemen is a phase modulated energy weapon. It's rated for a maximum power output of 500 gigajoules. Enterprise was designed to carry three of them, we have one, and it's only a prototype

When they overload, they produce a blast 10 times more powerful, or 5 Terajoules (about 1.1 KT), per cannon.

The Phase Cannons are powered directly from the impulse engines. This would mean a phase cannon's output would in theory only be limited by how much energy it could receive from the impulse engines.

No, it certainly doesn't, as directly stated here:

"The relays were rated to handle that much power."

So the relays have a limit on how much power they can channel, as logic would dictate, and a surge can, and did, "knock out" much of the system when it fired...
So the actual power output is not, in any way, limited on how much power it can get from the engines, but rather by how much power the relays can take, and as we saw, this is limited to 10 times normal levels...

[Mith]

Archer was also no doubt being hyperbolish as well. Two 1.1 kt bombs wouldn't blast apart an entire mountain of that size so easily--though maybe it might be due to a lack of gravity.

[Mike DiCenso]

Originally, if we take the episode dialog at face value, the phase cannons on the NX-01 are not powered directly by either the warp reactor or the impulse engines. It is Lt. Reed's modifications that allowed for that. So essentially they are charged up, fired, then recharged again. Direct powering may have the benefit that not only can you overpower the cannons, they can be potentially constantly powered rather than have to wait to recharge their capacitors or whatever.

The alien device when seemingly inert was putting out over 600 megajoules. This statement seems oddly vague for a Vulcan to give.

How so? Spock as well as Tuvok have given similar statements in the past, and all three Vulcans have been very precise when there is need to do so. Also T'Pol correctly describes energy and joules, rather than Reed and Tucker's misuse of joules to describe the power output of the phase cannons earlier in the episode.

Archer was also no doubt being hyperbolish as well. Two 1.1 kt bombs wouldn't blast apart an entire mountain of that size so easily--though maybe it might be due to a lack of gravity.

That would not make as much a difference as how solid the peak was, and even then the collateral damage extended well beyond the peak itself, and appeared to completely engulf and destroy the crater.
-Mike

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Archer was also no doubt being hyperbolish as well. Two 1.1 kt bombs wouldn't blast apart an entire mountain of that size so easily--though maybe it might be due to a lack of gravity.

I suppose we should factor in that the surface had likely very low G compared to earth and how that would effect surface explosions ect.

[Lucky]

When they overload, they produce a blast 10 times more powerful, or 5 Terajoules (about 1.1 KT), per cannon.

The full quote was just about two sentences, It feels like you are trying to take what i said out of context which you did.

The phase cannons are not stated to be overloaded. The phase modulators were overloaded. Clearly there is a difference or they would have said the cannons had been overloaded.

We do not know the output they intended to use for the test, but the captain orders less then 100%, and logic dictates that you test an untested and jury-rigged weapon at less then 100% before moving up. We only know the yield was 10 times what was expected, but we are never told what the expected yield was..

You are also mixing up output and yield. while the words have similar means they have notable differences in mean. The yield is the effect on the target, and the output is what comes out.

yield |yēld|
verb
1 [ trans. ] produce or provide (a natural, agricultural, or industrial product) : the land yields grapes and tobacco.
• (of an action or process) produce or deliver (a result or gain) : this method yields the same results.
• (of a financial or commercial process or transaction) generate (a specified financial return) : such investments yield direct cash returns.

output |ˈoutˌpoŏt|
noun
1 the amount of something produced by a person, machine, or industry : the diverse range of Liszt's output | efficiency can lead to higher outputs.
• the action or process of producing something : the output of epinephrine.
• the power, energy, or other results supplied by a device or system : the quality of the output from the printer is very good.

It certainly looks to me like there is a difference between a yield and an output, and as we know the yield and output do not have to match in Star Trek as they do in the real world, and it is why you can't say for certain what a phaser or disruptor's output is for certain based on the effects...

So the relays have a limit on how much power they can channel, as logic would dictate, and a surge can, and did, "knock out" much of the system when it fired...
So the actual power output is not, in any way, limited on how much power it can get from the engines, but rather by how much power the relays can take, and as we saw, this is limited to 10 times normal levels...

That was the "plasma recoil" they talked about Knocking out the relays, and we are not told how much power the relays they were talking about could handle. When they used the grav plating to absorb the energy of the recoil they only lost one deck instead of two..

The episode shows the output of the phase cannons can not exceed the impulse engines giving a hard theoretical upper limit to their output. The episode does not tell us what the limits are for the output as much as you like to claim.

You are simply assuming 10 times normal energy levels without any proof, and ignoring the fact they weren't even firing the phase cannons at 500 gigajoules.. What is stated is not that the cannons were overloaded, but the phase modulators were overloaded. Given the alien device seems to have been the cause the surge could have only been in the mega joule range or less.

[Lucky]

Archer was also no doubt being hyperbolish as well. Two 1.1 kt bombs wouldn't blast apart an entire mountain of that size so easily--though maybe it might be due to a lack of gravity.

Archer was being extremely specific for it to just be hyperbole. Why use a specific if there weren't notable similarities? Why not simply say mountain?

[Lucky]

Originally, if we take the episode dialog at face value, the phase cannons on the NX-01 are not powered directly by either the warp reactor or the impulse engines. It is Lt. Reed's modifications that allowed for that. So essentially they are charged up, fired, then recharged again. Direct powering may have the benefit that not only can you overpower the cannons, they can be potentially constantly powered rather than have to wait to recharge their capacitors or whatever.

What are you trying to say?

The EPS grid is the standard power distribution method for the ship.

Reed apparently to save time connected the phase cannons directly to the impulse engines.

How so? Spock as well as Tuvok have given similar statements in the past, and all three Vulcans have been very precise when there is need to do so. Also T'Pol correctly describes energy and joules, rather than Reed and Tucker's misuse of joules to describe the power output of the phase cannons earlier in the episode.

It is a fairly useless statement in that it states the output is an unknown quantity above 600 megajoules. It's almost like saying I don't know what the output is.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Reed apparently to save time connected the phase cannons directly to the impulse engines.

They would have had too as its not until ST:TMP that they connect em to the warp core.

[Mith]

Archer was also no doubt being hyperbolish as well. Two 1.1 kt bombs wouldn't blast apart an entire mountain of that size so easily--though maybe it might be due to a lack of gravity.

Archer was being extremely specific for it to just be hyperbole. Why use a specific if there weren't notable similarities? Why not simply say mountain?

It was just a reference. Like saying to someone; "You mother's ass is large enough to block off Interstate 2". Obviously, it's going to be incredibly unlikely that even a fat woman can block an interstate. It's hyperbole. It's not meant to be an exact measurement so much as it is something to help convey an idea. Ie, the phase cannons had destroyed a mountain-like structure. Therefore, Archer compared it to a known mountain to add a punch to what he was talking about.

More interesting to me is that the ship's shields were overwhelmed by 2.2 kilotons of energy.

[Mike DiCenso]

What are you trying to say?

That's fairly obvious.

The EPS grid is the standard power distribution method for the ship.

Reed apparently to save time connected the phase cannons directly to the impulse engines.

Yes, which is what I said. I was making the point that before Reed starting playing around with the power relays, the original system must have been set up to indirectly charge up the cannons, much like the later phaser banks were.

It is a fairly useless statement in that it states the output is an unknown quantity above 600 megajoules. It's almost like saying I don't know what the output is.

Hardly. It tells us a minimum output for the device when it is inert and not putting out on full. And 600 MJ is nothing to sneeze at from a device that is small enough to fit in a suit case with room to spare.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Archer was also no doubt being hyperbolish as well. Two 1.1 kt bombs wouldn't blast apart an entire mountain of that size so easily--though maybe it might be due to a lack of gravity.

Archer was being extremely specific for it to just be hyperbole. Why use a specific if there weren't notable similarities? Why not simply say mountain?

It was just a reference. Like saying to someone; "You mother's ass is large enough to block off Interstate 2". Obviously, it's going to be incredibly unlikely that even a fat woman can block an interstate. It's hyperbole. It's not meant to be an exact measurement so much as it is something to help convey an idea. Ie, the phase cannons had destroyed a mountain-like structure. Therefore, Archer compared it to a known mountain to add a punch to what he was talking about.

More interesting to me is that the ship's shields were overwhelmed by 2.2 kilotons of energy.

What was interesting was that the Mystery Alien's shields failed several seconds after the overloaded phase cannons finished firing. In addition, the Mystery Alien's shields had already endured the previous (presumably) 1 TJ strike for several seconds. That suggests that the NX-01 got lucky in their second strike and caused a system failure, or the Mystery Alien got too cocky and didn't have enough power allocated to their shields.
-Mike

[Lucky]

It was just a reference. Like saying to someone; "You mother's ass is large enough to block off Interstate 2". Obviously, it's going to be incredibly unlikely that even a fat woman can block an interstate. It's hyperbole. It's not meant to be an exact measurement so much as it is something to help convey an idea. Ie, the phase cannons had destroyed a mountain-like structure. Therefore, Archer compared it to a known mountain to add a punch to what he was talking about.

Archer would have read the reports that would have told the dimensions of the mountain as well as the effective yield of the beams.

More interesting to me is that the ship's shields were overwhelmed by 2.2 kilotons of energy.

When are we told that?

[Lucky]

What was interesting was that the Mystery Alien's shields failed several seconds after the overloaded phase cannons finished firing. In addition, the Mystery Alien's shields had already endured the previous (presumably) 1 TJ strike for several seconds. That suggests that the NX-01 got lucky in their second strike and caused a system failure, or the Mystery Alien got too cocky and didn't have enough power allocated to their shields.
-Mike

It makes it seem as if the Greys didn't expect the Enterprise to use the overload mode, and that their shields fail when the attack is of a certain threshold.

[Mith]

What was interesting was that the Mystery Alien's shields failed several seconds after the overloaded phase cannons finished firing. In addition, the Mystery Alien's shields had already endured the previous (presumably) 1 TJ strike for several seconds. That suggests that the NX-01 got lucky in their second strike and caused a system failure, or the Mystery Alien got too cocky and didn't have enough power allocated to their shields.
-Mike

They probably blew out a relay or something. While it isn't a massive difference, it's large enough that it still works. Ie, it would have taken like, 4-5 triton warheads to have done the same thing.