Praeothmin wrote:SIX MONTHS!
It took you six months to reply to my post and that is all you come back with?
Repeats of old arguments, still with no evidence?
Let's go over this, shall we?
Praeothmin, I am responding to your post. Given that you warned me for failing to respond to your post within 24 hours of you posting it, for fairness and avoiding a blatant double standard could you please respond to this before this time tomorrow?
Just kidding. I may not be able to respond to your post until Monday. Hopefully you'll understand that starfleet jedi is lower on my priority list than, well, lots of things.
Prove it, you dishonest debater, you!
So you ban me for telling somebody to improve their grammar, but calling someone a dishonest debater is less insulting?
Stromtroopers line in a entrence when coming in (Tantive IV invasion) instead of taking cover in the doorway,
Witness the amazing accuracy of starfleet personnel:
shooting at the rebels shooting back,
...are you claiming that the stormtroopers were not firing at the Rebels? Clearly you weren't watching the same movie.
and using actual grenades to take down the majority of their opponents...
Oh really? Show me one instance in which anybody in Star Trek ever uses a grenade.
Stormtroopers can't stop 2 guys (a farmer and a smuggler) from taking over a cell block with their most important prisoner...
And the entire crew of a Romulan ship was outgunned by a 60 year old. Notice how those 3 people; you forgot Chewbacca; got in through the use of deception and the element of surprise, and then had to quickly turn tail and run after they rescued Leia. Meanwhile, Picard single handedly defeats the entire armed crew of the ship in a head on fight.
Stormtroopers get owned by Teddy Bears and their simple traps, or in combat (RotJ, Endor fight)...
Funny how you claim this, yet the Ewoks:
1. Had the element of surprise
2. Had knowledge of the terrain
3. Had the help of Rebel commandos
4. Had the advantage in numbers
5. Had the high ground for the opening salvo
6. Yet were still losing after the initial shock until Chewbacca hijacked an AT-ST
On the contrary, are you honestly going to claim that Star Trek does not ever show redshirt being overwhelmed by klingons in melee combat?
Sophisticated equipment?
What sophisticated equipment?
Helmets that can't be adjusted to a new user ("I can't see in this thing", Luke Skywalker, ANH)?
Does ease of use have much to do with this topic? Redshirts have no armor, no helmets, no HUD...stormtroopers do have all of these.
Scanners so big you need to carry them in a crate (MF scanning on the DS, ANH)?
You mean scanners that can track ships going at millions of C and jamming equipment/shields so powerful they distort space-time?
Yeah, Redshirts are less competent than Stormtroopers...
Try again...
You see, I'm not claiming that stormtroopers are competent. I am saying that while they may not be good shots, they do have advanced equipment and some basic semblance of cover. Redshirts have inferior equipment, are no better shots and use tactics that rival the movie starship trooper MI in competence.
Please describe the incident, and how they could have performed better...
And more importantly, show me an example of Stormtroopers actually performing better...
As I recall; unfortunately I cannot find Voyager: Resistance online, Janeway and her crew are jumped on by armed men with phasers in what appears to be body armor, but Janeway and her crew take them out with ease. There are also examples, like the Siege of AR 558 where Sisko is being charged by jem hadar soldiers, whom engage him in hand to hand combat.
As for stormtroopers doing better, do you ever see any non Force using characters try and engage them in hand to hand combat with a few exceptions (ie Chewbacca in ESB) that involve specific circumstances?
No, it makes a difference in the eyes of intelligent and logical debaters...
If I tell you I'm a better fighter than you, and my only feat is to beat a 7 year old child into submission, while yours is to lose in 3 rounds to a 6'4'' 285 pounds MMA champion, guess who people will assume is the better fighter?
Not me...
So yeah, guys who get beaten by and beat fully grown humanoids, who often have superior strength, use energy weapons and not cheap bows and arrows, are superior to idiots who get beaten by small Teddy Bears with primitive weapons...
Who'se got the shallow and superficial eyes, really?
Did you just claim that Ewoks are weak?
They were lifting 30 pound rocks over their heads and hurling them! They also easily lifted C3PO into the air.
Also, in the context of what was happening, strength had very little relevance.
These examples are relevent to show that the boy in question is a genious, and can do whatever he wants, including hacking SW computers which an Astrodroid, made for navigating stars, can do easily...
And ST does have security on its computers:
It is called a "security lockout":
A security lockout is a safety procedure that is performed when it is unwanted that someone can gain access to a computer system.
When renegade Ferengi hijacked the Enterprise-D in 2369, Commander William T. Riker ordered a security lockout of all command functions. (TNG: "Rascals")
As for Voyager, the pilot states Voyager was damaged, every few episodes, they mention needing to find new energy sources, and they even rationed Replicator use because of this...
This clearly points to an energy shortage for Voyager...
Now, if you have energy shortages, then you won't go at your maximum speeds, when you know more speed requires more energy...
Again, there is no evidence that Wesley was a competent hacker, and if he was, Picard should have taken precautions. We know from that episode with the stock market dude that there are no safeguards on the ship's communications devices, and we know from Voyager Deadlock that Janeway is too stupid to change the ship's access codes after a spy was uncovered.
Voyager was attacked by the Kazon, the Vadwaur, the Krenim, the Borg, the Hirogen, etc...
Where would they be finding replacement parts, you think?
At the nearest Starfleet service center?
They most likely made them, which means planetary ressources, and then Replicators, which means energy use, which means, with their low reserves, lower speeds...
Which might have merit if the Voyager's performance downgraded over the series, but it didn't. If the Voyager really was low on power, why was Janeway so eager to stop at every random anomaly?
So then deduct a few weeks. Or even a year. Unless if you deduct is so much that the Voyager only spent a few hours travel time, you're still getting a figure massively in favor of Star Wars.
How about you prove it with some calculations, like the kind I gave you?
Oh, but you don't need to, here, I'll give you a few, all curtesy of our friend 2046's site:
"'Tell me I'm wrong, but I don't think an Interdictor could cross ninety-one light-years in four hours -- not on its best day.'
'You are correct,' Gant said, reaching out and collecting the recorder." [ "Tyrant's Test" p. 13 ]
That's 23 LY an hour, for 200 000c...
Half the speed I showed you...
Which would mean that Obi Wan spent, depending on your figures for SW galaxy size, a few weeks to a few years in his small starfighter going to Kamino, and that senators, who regularly convene in meetings and sometimes even call for emergency meetings, spend most of their time in office just traveling via hyperspace. Oh, and the geonosians waited for several months to try and execute Anakin, Obi Wan and Padme.
That's 70 LY per day, or 25 550c...
Which would mean that Obi Wan spent years in his small starfighter traveling to Kamino. I wonder where he went to the bathroom? Or that senators would spent years just traveling to an average meeting, and that Han Solo and the gang spent several years just inside the Falcon to get to Alderaan. Thinking of that, Han must have been paid too little, if he did indeed get paid!
" It wasn't good. Luke's reverse-triggering of the acceleration compensator had caused an unanticipated feedback surge into both hyperdrive motivators - not enough to fry them on the spot, but scorching them badly enough to cause sudden failure ten minutes into their escape. At the Point Four the ship had been doing at the time, that translated into approximately half a light-year of distance." [ "Heir to the Empire", p. 187-188 ]
That's 3 LY in one hour, or 26 280c...
See above. See how your figures all imply that the heroes and villains spent ridiculous amounts of time traveling via hyperspace? That Anakin and Obi Wan would have been middle aged by RotS simply by traveling around?
So, how about you come up with some hard numbers?
"The vast rebel fleet hung poised in space, ready to strike. It was hundreds of light-years from the Death Star --- but in hyperspace, all time was a moment, and the deadliness of an attack was measured not in distance but in precision."
In this time, Luke was transported from Endor to the Death Star. This takes what...a few minutes? We know that SW ships can achieve orbit in a matter of seconds, or minutes if you so incline for this post, so therefore, even if it took 15 minutes for them to transport Luke to the Death Star, and the Rebel fleet was only 200 light years; the minimal interpretation of hundreds, away, since it arrived after Luke was on the death star, that means that the Rebel fleet was moving at around 5 million C.
Vader called bounty hunters from various parts of the galaxy to meet him in the obscure outer rim Hoth asteroid belt. Even if it took them all 2 days to get there; increasing this number increases the damage the ISDs' shields took in the belt, and also makes less sense as Vader would have expected the Falcon to have been long gone had he waited to long, would imply speeds in excess of 3 million to 30 million C depending on the SW galaxy size you use.
If hyperdrive were not faster than warp drive, it would have taken Obi Wan several years to get to Kamino, and Anakin would have been in his twenties by the end of TPM.
]
You mean the chart that is constantly being proven wrong by the movies and shows?
Yeah, I guess I shouldn't have expected you to reply with actual evidence...
Let's see:
PICARD: That's not possible. Data, what is our distance traveled?
DATA: Two million -- seven hundred thousand light years.
...
GEORDI: And I calculate that at maximum warp, sir ... it would take over three hundred years to get home.
That calculates out to about 9000 C. Compare that to the consistent showings of >million C for hyperdrive, and you're in a losing position.
For some more context:
GEORDI: Message on this has been transmitted to Starfleet, sir.
DATA: Which, traveling subspace, they should receive in fifty-one years, ten months...
They were about 2.6 million light years away, so the speed of subspace communication is about 52,000 C. What does this mean?
Yes,
Star Wars TRAVEL speeds are greater than Star Trek COMMUNICATION speeds. You're pretty screwed if your enemy can run faster than you can shout.
More:
KOSINSKI: In three centuries of space flight, we have charted just eleven percent of our galaxy.
Hey, the Federation has charted 11% of the Milky Way. We know from AotC that the Galactic Republic has charted 100% of the Star Wars galaxy.
More:
TASHA (over comm): Excuse the interruption, Captain, but this may be worth it. We're now receiving a signal from the probe.
PICARD: We'll take it here, please.
(Viewscreen shows forcefield being projected from planet, holding both the Enterprise and the Ferengi vessel in place)
GEORDI: Incredible!
RIKER: That's our mysterious "something," Captain. It is a forcefield of some kind...
PICARD: Reaching up from the planet surface. What amazing power! How does the legend describe the end of the Tkon Empire?
DATA: By their Sun going supernova, sir.
Picard is amazed by a forcefield that can wrap around a ship from the planet surface. Oh wow, notice how this is how the Death Star 2 was protected?
More:
WESLEY: Sir! You'll soon be getting an intruder alert!
RIKER: What? Wesley, if you've something to report-
WESLEY: If you'll scan heading four-four mark one-six-three, Lieutenant, you'll find-
TASHA: Intruder alert, sir.
GEORDI: I've got something, sir. Very distant.
WESLEY: It's an old style starship, Constitution Class, heading this way under impulse power, sir.
RIKER: Says who?
PICARD: Carry on. Answer the first officer's question.
WESLEY: Uh... says the long distance sensors, sir. I was in Engineering, playing around with boosting sensor output ...
(The Ferengi beam over, there is a brief conversation)
...
TASHA: Do you want the arriving vessel on Main Viewer, sir? It is only a thousand kilometers away now...
Hey, the long range sensors of the Enterprise picked up a ship from 1000 km away, but did not pick it up when it was >1000 km away.
Here:
DATA (describing the mythical Tkon Empire): Again, only legend, but it describes the Empire as impossibly huge and powerful.
RIKER: Surrounded by stars whose planets formed its defensive system?
DATA: Correct, sir. Outposts. And the planet below was possibly one of them.
Data is amazed by the size of the Tkon Empire, despite the fact that they were wiped out by a single supernova.
In Star Trek Generations, the only ship in range of an anomaly 3 light years away from Sol is the Enterprise. This is despite the fact that Sol is a central solar system of the Federation.
