The UFP and The Dominion Vs the GE

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Praeothmin
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Re: The UFP and The Dominion Vs the GE

Post by Praeothmin » Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:01 pm

Well, slow communications was indeed an issue in earlier Trek, right up until the latest seasons of TNG, but then the Dominion war erupted, and we saw real-time communications, sometimes between Earth, Romulus and Kronos, all with DS9...
Even better, is that a pulsar many light years away from Earth was used to send near instantaneous messages in Voy, so communications have improved, either through the use of more powerful subspace arrays, and/or through more powerful emitters on ships...

Either way, a 38 000c comm speed would not allow for the Dominion war to have happened as it did, so the bullshit about the Federation not being able to call for help fast enough is debunked...

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Re: The UFP and The Dominion Vs the GE

Post by Picard » Thu Sep 29, 2011 2:51 pm

I think I remember reading a theory that speed of subspace comm drops with time... so, settled space with many relays would allow for instantenous or near-instantenous communication. But making a call from one side of galaxy to another with just two devices and no relays would take time. Lot of time.

@SWST:

Federation doesn't have planetary shields? Hmmm....

http://picard578.hostoi.com/startrek-vs ... ssive.html

Granted, that shield on screencap is not Federation shield. But I have provided examples showing that Federation does indeed have planetary shielding; and race in question only had single planet, and was far less advanced than the Federation. Besides, we know that a BoP can quite quickly destroy life on a entire planet... just change settings on disruptors...

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Re: The UFP and The Dominion Vs the GE

Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Sep 29, 2011 3:47 pm

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:By having a single guy go to Earth and buy one? You seem to think that the Federation keeps the location of its planets a secret. Archer gave the coordinates to Earth away on First Contact with an alien species that they hadn't even gotten the chance to look at.
There is one problem with this. There is no United Federation of Planets at the time of Archer doing this. This was a first contact between United Earth and the Axanar, and the Axanar had just saved the NX-01's bacon from the unknown Space Vampire ship that was kicking it's ass. Afterwords, the two peoples spend a great deal of time together learning about each other. So really what you are saying is that an Imperial agent or representatives would have to do something very extraordinary to in order to obtain navigational data that would lead them to anywhere useful in the Federation.

But let us look at a more appropriate first contact scenario, one involving the UFP and appropriately enough from an episode titled "First Contact" from TNG. In it, the Federation is preparing to make contact with planet Malcor III that is gearing up for it's first warp drive flight. The Federation already has "boots on the ground" observers to learn everything it can about the people beforehand. While Troi mentions that Captain Picard is from Earth and is over 2,000 light years away, she does not tell them exactly how to get there, or to her home planet of Betazed. By the way, that is a rare canonical distance spoken of in dialog, and it proves that in well-charted territory, ST ships are really damn fast since by your reckoning, the E-D should have taken around 2 years to get out to Malcor III, but instead took only about 5 months. Now, you'd claim that's still pretty slow, but then you have to realize that between the episode and the last one they were at Earth ("Family"), there had been about a dozen adventures for the crew to deal with that ranged all over the Federation and outside it. So even if we assumed the E-D was more or less scheduled to go out to Malcor III, and it was travelling a relatively direct path out there, it still had to stop many times and deal with other things before it did, thus the actual speed of them being able to go straight out there without making stops would be quite high. As it is, the E-D managed an average of over 4,800c. And that's a very lower limit here.

In fact, we've seen dozens of contact scenes in Star Trek involving Federation represenatives and other races, but at no point does anyone from the Federation hand out their location to anyone.
-Mike

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Re: The UFP and The Dominion Vs the GE

Post by Mith » Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:25 pm

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:Hardly. The gravitational field of Jupiter (or was it Saturn?) was enough to shield the 2009 Enterprise from detection by a more advanced Romulan time traveling mining ship, and the the whatever-magnetic-technobabble of the moon was enough to shield the time traveling Enterprise from detection by the Vulcans. And even if the Federation does detect the imperial ships, they could hardly even start to shoot them before the imperials, with the element of surprise, fire their missile complement.
First off, hiding behind a planet is an excellent way to hide from your enemies. Not to mention the Enterprise herself had managed to hide in the actual rings of the planet, if I'm correct. Second, said Romulan ship was clearly less powerful than most TNG-DS9-VOY ships as we saw an old hull of the TOS era take multiple blows before she was effectively reduced to dead in the water.

In Voyager, it took a single hit from an Intrepid class ship to disable a Klingon D7 from that same era. And that was after the ship had bombed them with torpedoes and disruptor strikes.

And finally, the Empire is so behind in firepower that the ST ship would easily laugh it off before they disable the Imperial ship and demand unconditional surrender.
If by breathing down your neck you mean 250 million kilometers away, sure.
You do realize that Earth has shields and an orbital defense grid, right? And so does Mars? Fuck, in ENT, Earth had to deal with terrorists who stole a Veteron array with the ability to destroy anything on Earth within minutes.
Excuse me? Your analogy is reversed. You concede that hyperdrive is faster than warp drive by a decent margin, correct?
You do realize that mapping out hyperspace lane requires a great amount of time, right? So great that when the CIS mined all the Republic's, they had to go crawling to the Hutts so they wouldn't lose the war.

Too bad that Federation starships consistently miss against realspace <1km/s vessels while they themselves are in realspace. For whatever reason, FTL combat is completely different than realspace combat. Otherwise, every battle we ever saw in Star Trek would be over in seconds, with these theoretical super tracking computers (humans can’t track relativistic targets) vaporizing the other side in microseconds.
You do understand how relativity works, don't you? In any case, visuals are misleading. And actual people in charge of the shows have stated that not all things you see onscreen are 'hard' canon.
Defend the torpedos? Again, the torpedos at relativistic speeds and accelerating at randomized speeds hardly need protecting. Even if the Federation intercepts half of them, they still get screwed.
ST ships can move at sub-light speeds of .7c. There is absolutely no way that the Empire's torpedoes are capable of hitting them. Especially with the ability for multiple elements on an array to fire.
They don’t need heavy shielding (which, by Star Trek standards, is still stronger than Starfleet, but that’s another debate), they just have to launch a ton of missiles in succession and then bail out through hyperspace.
You mean run with their tail between their legs?

First off, how powerful are these torpedoes? How fast are they? And what makes you think that they can destroy a Federation ship at roughly 200,000 kilometers when we see that their fighters and capital ships engage at much closer ranges?
Again, you don’t understand how big space is. Not even every faction in the Alpha Quadrant working together could effectively track and intercept patrol ships who would spend 99% of their time in hyperspace and a few minutes, maybe, somewhere in realspace. Even if they could, it would hardly be a “bloody conventional war” as much as it would be the Federation taking potshots at random patrol ships.
Partrol ships are hardly a problem. The Empire needs its vast fleet to engage the Federation. And where is the majority of that fleet? Oh yeah, babysitting planets both loyal and rebellious to the Empire.
I also find it interesting that you think that all of the above factions would unite just against Star Wars plotting maps, even though they hardly united against a full scale invasion by the Dominion. I guess I’ll take that as a concession that the Empire is a greater threat than the Dominion ever would be.
That's rather amusing.

First off, neither of these powers would ignore ships popping into and out of their territory to map their space. It was a rare even for any Klingon, UFP, or Romulan ships to cross into each others territory in times of peace--such an action would be a provocation of war.

This isn't uncommon. Typically, you don't see British carrier groups in US waters unless invited to do so or responding to a distress signal. This is because such an action would lead to a war.

Why would these powers let the Empire come and go as they please?

They have rare shields that sometimes block stuff. Usually, they just block transmissions, and a single ship can cut through them with their phasers.
Um, what? Even fighters can resist the secondary phasers from capital ships.
Hyperdrive without hyperspace routes plotted are slower, but still faster than warp drive. You seem to be under the impression that hyperdrives can’t work at all without hyperspace routes. Not only is this canonically false, but it presents a paradox; how were hyperspace routes plotted in the first place if hyperdrives couldn’t function without them?
The Clone Wars Movie says otherwise.
Are you postulating that the Federation can get an assassin into Coruscant (in which the assassin would likely be an old man when he gets there) and assassinate Palpatine? Jee, I wonder why the Rebel Alliance didn’t try that.
Why would they have to be old? Simply capturing an Imperial ship and discovering how they open holes into hyperspace would allow the Federation to get there in no time. And their much smaller ship sizes would make maneuverability easy.

Oh, and even if you want to argue that they can't somehow capture a ship, the Rebels and other factions would be more than happy to sell it to them. And seeing as Han can maintain a hyperspace engine, I don't think we're looking at something too complicated here.

And you know that you’re side is in a losing position if it has to resort to desperation weapons and break major treaties to try and win.
Hardly. It's simply a matter of point. And already we saw that in early DS9 the treaty was being 'loosened' and in later DS9, the Empire didn't at all complain about all the time that the Defiant used its cloak in the Alpha-Beta Quadrant.

And of course, the UFP has violated that treaty twice (The Pegasus & Insurrection).

To elaborate on my plan and expand it, since you seem to misunderstand it:

1. Mass produce billions of small patrol ships. We know that this can be done, given that the Death Star 2 easily masses far more, and was constructed in the Outer Rim in relative secrecy. We also know from Star Wars: Millennium Falcon that individual ship production companies can manufacture tens of millions of freighter sized ships every year.
So what?
2. Go to Earth (which, again, is no secret) and bribe a random citizen into giving you a map.
Lol.

So how do you intend to bribe them? Considering that 95% of everything on Earth is free.

You just need to find one in the many billions of people on Earth. Or heck, you don’t even need to bribe. Just buy it from a store.
Ah yes, because after the three first million people they try to bribe, no one will at all report it.
3. Use the patrol ships to plot out hyperspace routes. The Alpha Quadrant forces may fire on you if in the extremely unlikely event that one of their ships just happens to be within firing range. You may lose a few patrol ships, but they’ll all add up to no noticeable materiel loss.
Again, you need an entry point into ST. As long as you guard that, the Empire can't get in.
4. Get your 25,000 ISD’s and equip them each with five thousand thermonuclear weapons, programmed to accelerate at randomized but extreme speeds along randomized vectors.
Lol. Because the Empire can send the backbone of their entire fleet away and not risk collapse? Here's a hint; they can't. They couldn't even scrounge up what amounted to less than 1% of their fleet to attack Mon Calamari.

Mon fucking Calamari.

To take and destroy the UFP would require a force a few hundred times larger than what they would have needed to end one of the Rebel's number one producers of true warships.
5. Assign 25 ISD’s to each Federation planet and have them hyper out 150 million kilometers away from the planet, but each ISD coming from a different direction.
6. Fire nuclear missiles at planet.
And watch as Veteron arrays, weapons capable of FTL speeds designed for diverting asteroids, nip them in the bud.
7. Even going by upper end estimates on Star Trek weapon range,
Again. The Veteron array from Enterprise was stated to be able to hit any ship and any planet within the solar system. Future UFP defensive capabilities should comfortably exceed this.
once the missiles go relativistic the ST defenders would only have around a second to intercept the missiles. With 25 ISD’s to each planet and 1000 nukes per ISD, there would be 25000 nuclear missiles for each planet. Since the high end estimates for Starfleet’s size is 30,000 ships (including fighters),
The estimation does not include fighters. All its done is include Runabouts, which are not fighters, but actually really small starships.

And funny plan, because the Empire never at all implemented this tactic against Mon Calamari. Which was a single planets and had at most, a few hundred ships they could call up for its defense.

Oops.

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Re: The UFP and The Dominion Vs the GE

Post by StarWarsStarTrek » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:54 pm

My apologies, I missed this response, and am attempting to respond to ignored posts.
Mith wrote:
First off, hiding behind a planet is an excellent way to hide from your enemies.
Canonically, it is.
Not to mention the Enterprise herself had managed to hide in the actual rings of the planet, if I'm correct. Second, said Romulan ship was clearly less powerful than most TNG-DS9-VOY ships as we saw an old hull of the TOS era take multiple blows before she was effectively reduced to dead in the water.
Then hide in the rings. Is this supposed to refute my argument? The rest is uselessly speculating that the Romulan ship has significantly inferior sensors to later Trek ships without reason.
In Voyager, it took a single hit from an Intrepid class ship to disable a Klingon D7 from that same era. And that was after the ship had bombed them with torpedoes and disruptor strikes.

And finally, the Empire is so behind in firepower that the ST ship would easily laugh it off before they disable the Imperial ship and demand unconditional surrender.
Not only is this blatantly false (but so hotly debated that I will not get into it) [indeed, it is the other way around; a single star destroyer can easily defeat the entire Federation starfleet], but my mission involves launching nuclear missiles (which are actually very enormous by the comic scans, likely gigaton level fireballs) at Federation planets, not their ships.
You do realize that Earth has shields and an orbital defense grid, right?
I need proof to "realize" this.
And so does Mars? Fuck, in ENT, Earth had to deal with terrorists who stole a Veteron array with the ability to destroy anything on Earth within minutes.
And let me guess: the Enterprise was the only ship "within range" to deal with it.


You do realize that mapping out hyperspace lane requires a great amount of time, right? So great that when the CIS mined all the Republic's, they had to go crawling to the Hutts so they wouldn't lose the war.
And what is the Federation going to do in that time? They can't launch a counterinvasion, just sit there and spend the time to prepare for a conventional war, not for the sudden blitzkreig they will receive?

You do understand how relativity works, don't you? In any case, visuals are misleading. And actual people in charge of the shows have stated that not all things you see onscreen are 'hard' canon.
So if the visuals are inaccurate (which can also be applied to Alderaan's halo rings)...then what's the "canon" explanation for the story fact that the Battle of Cardassia, for example, lasted more than 5 microseconds?

ST ships can move at sub-light speeds of .7c. There is absolutely no way that the Empire's torpedoes are capable of hitting them. Especially with the ability for multiple elements on an array to fire.
I'll repeat to you for the gazillionth time:

THE NUKE ARE TO HIT THE PLANET. THERE IS NO NEED TO EVEN ACKNOWLEDGE THE FEDERATION SHIPS (which do not accelerate to 0.7 C to evade photon torpedos).

You mean run with their tail between their legs?
Yes.
First off, how powerful are these torpedoes? How fast are they? And what makes you think that they can destroy a Federation ship at roughly 200,000 kilometers when we see that their fighters and capital ships engage at much closer ranges?
They don't need to destroy Federation ships. Their target is the planet, which can be effectively reduced to an uninhabited wasteland using modern technology, let alone this:

Image
Partrol ships are hardly a problem. The Empire needs its vast fleet to engage the Federation. And where is the majority of that fleet? Oh yeah, babysitting planets both loyal and rebellious to the Empire.
Its vast fleet pops into realspace for a second (or much less) to launch its missiles and then leaves.

That's rather amusing.

First off, neither of these powers would ignore ships popping into and out of their territory to map their space. It was a rare even for any Klingon, UFP, or Romulan ships to cross into each others territory in times of peace--such an action would be a provocation of war.

This isn't uncommon. Typically, you don't see British carrier groups in US waters unless invited to do so or responding to a distress signal. This is because such an action would lead to a war.

Why would these powers let the Empire come and go as they please?
It took the Federation many minutes of conversation to respond to a Romulan incursion into deep space, yet you feel as though the Klingons, Romulans and Federation will instantly detect, send ships in and destroy/capture a random patrol ship appearing somewhere in the sextillion sextillions of cubic meters of space for ten seconds to collect data?

Um, what? Even fighters can resist the secondary phasers from capital ships.
No, fighters resist them by moving at 100 meters per second from 100 meters away, which is too much for the ships to hit them at a consistent rate.

The Clone Wars Movie says otherwise.
This is equivalent to saying that the Civil War proves that armies couldn't move without railroads. A huge blow to the Republic's transportation =/= not being able to move at all.

In addition, you ignored my paradox.

Why would they have to be old? Simply capturing an Imperial ship
The only imperial ships that would be anywhere until the main fleet arrives (which would be after the lanes were plotted) would be patrol ships (possibly unmanned, and set to self destruct) appearing at random locations in the infinite reaches of space for ten seconds to collect data, then hyperspace out and run calculations later. There is no way to have fleets ready to "capture" these ships.
and discovering how they open holes into hyperspace would allow the Federation to get there in no time. And their much smaller ship sizes would make maneuverability easy.
Do you honestly believe that dissecting complex technology is this simple?

Oh, and even if you want to argue that they can't somehow capture a ship, the Rebels and other factions would be more than happy to sell it to them. And seeing as Han can maintain a hyperspace engine, I don't think we're looking at something too complicated here.
It would take many, many years for a subspace comn to reach the Rebels...eh, they wouldn't be able to read it. So they would have to learn about the Rebels (how?), locate them (how?), send a ship to see them (how?) and then convince them to sell them tech (how?) using their significantly slower warp drive.
Hardly. It's simply a matter of point. And already we saw that in early DS9 the treaty was being 'loosened' and in later DS9, the Empire didn't at all complain about all the time that the Defiant used its cloak in the Alpha-Beta Quadrant.

And of course, the UFP has violated that treaty twice (The Pegasus & Insurrection).
Yet they still did not violate it on a wide scale against the Romulans. Yet apparently, they would against the Empire now.

So what?
It's the first step to my plan, of course. I was not making a superiority claim at all, I was mapping out what they have to do. Can you stop taking everything as an assault upon Trek?


Lol.

So how do you intend to bribe them? Considering that 95% of everything on Earth is free.
Fine then. Just ask a random stranger for a map. His/her immediate suspicion to such a request is not to be "ZOMG HE MUST BE A SPY FROM ANOTHER GALAXY TRYING TO KILL US ALL". Unless if there are no places to get maps in Star Trek.


Ah yes, because after the three first million people they try to bribe, no one will at all report it.
So it will take 3 million people to get you a map? You're not asking for the fucking access codes to whatever secret Federation agency. How does anybody get around anywhere in Trek?

Again, you need an entry point into ST. As long as you guard that, the Empire can't get in.
What "entry point"? What the hell are you talking about?

Lol. Because the Empire can send the backbone of their entire fleet away and not risk collapse? Here's a hint; they can't. They couldn't even scrounge up what amounted to less than 1% of their fleet to attack Mon Calamari.

Mon fucking Calamari.

To take and destroy the UFP would require a force a few hundred times larger than what they would have needed to end one of the Rebel's number one producers of true warships.
Each sector fleet has 1,600 non ISD starships, Mith. If sending 25,000 ISDs is not enough, send 25,000 frigates (a small portion of the 1.6 million frigate like ships in the sector fleets, 1600 times 1000). They can still carry nukes.
And watch as Veteron arrays, weapons capable of FTL speeds designed for diverting asteroids, nip them in the bud.
Which happens in every Trek battle where all invading missiles and starships are ripped to shreds by your uber FTL speed arrays, right?

Again. The Veteron array from Enterprise was stated to be able to hit any ship and any planet within the solar system. Future UFP defensive capabilities should comfortably exceed this.
Yes, it can hit any planet or ship. Ship moving at what speeds? How can it possibly hit a missile accelerating randomly, let alone tens of thousands of them?

The estimation does not include fighters. All its done is include Runabouts, which are not fighters, but actually really small starships.

And funny plan, because the Empire never at all implemented this tactic against Mon Calamari. Which was a single planets and had at most, a few hundred ships they could call up for its defense.
The Empire uses Base Delta Zeros all the time. Nuking planets is nothing new to them. Mon Calamari had something called planetary shields.
Oops.
Oops is right. You spent the entire first half of the thread thinking that I wanted to actually attack your starships.

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Re: The UFP and The Dominion Vs the GE

Post by Admiral Breetai » Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:17 am

using a comic scene that directly contradicts TCW and the movies?

uh oh

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Re: The UFP and The Dominion Vs the GE

Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:08 am

Image


None of the explosions in that comic book panel shows gigaton-level explosions. Also very, very peculiar is that wee see fairly high-altitude mushroom clouds, which while impressive after a fashion, is very odd since there are no firestorms, no shattered crust, nor flash-vaporized oceans, thus constraining this event to a few tens of megatons at most per shot. Also funky, and adding to the problem is that the curvature of the planet makes little sense given it is clearly a close-up view and the atmosphere appears pretty thick.

And yet this is supposed to be a normal, run-of-the-mill habitable Earth-like planet, yes?
StarWarsStarTrek wrote:My apologies, I missed this response, and am attempting to respond to ignored posts.
It isn't even ignored posts that people are pissed off about, mostly you ignoring evidence and arguements without even a "How do you do".
-Mike

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Re: The UFP and The Dominion Vs the GE

Post by Picard » Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:31 am

But EU is higher canon than anything Lucas made, Lucas just sucks, how don't you understand?!? :-)
StarWarsStarTrek wrote:I need proof to "realize" this.
It might have been mentioned in TMP. But planetary shields are mentioned several times during run of Star Trek (mostly TOS), and Earth almost definetly has one.
And what is the Federation going to do in that time? They can't launch a counterinvasion, just sit there and spend the time to prepare for a conventional war, not for the sudden blitzkreig they will receive?
Or maybe blow up the ships trying to map the area?

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Re: The UFP and The Dominion Vs the GE

Post by Praeothmin » Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:10 pm

SWST wrote:indeed, it is the other way around; a single star destroyer can easily defeat the entire Federation starfleet
That was funny... :)

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Re: The UFP and The Dominion Vs the GE

Post by StarWarsStarTrek » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:07 pm

Picard wrote: Or maybe blow up the ships trying to map the area?
Feel free to explain how you detect, reach and destroy small patrol ships appearing at random spots in the hundreds of sextillions of cubic meters of space within 10 seconds, the time needed for it to run extensive scans on the night sky and hyperspeed away.

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Re: The UFP and The Dominion Vs the GE

Post by StarWarsStarTrek » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:13 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:Image


None of the explosions in that comic book panel shows gigaton-level explosions. Also very, very peculiar is that wee see fairly high-altitude mushroom clouds, which while impressive after a fashion, is very odd since there are no firestorms, no shattered crust, nor flash-vaporized oceans, thus constraining this event to a few tens of megatons at most per shot. Also funky, and adding to the problem is that the curvature of the planet makes little sense given it is clearly a close-up view and the atmosphere appears pretty thick.
The fact that the picture shows a noticeable curvature of the planet means that the explosions are almost comically (hahah...hahahah) large.

There is also this:

Image

From a CCG (not very high canon, but the artwork is still canon nevertheless).

Notice that, in addition to the very sizeable fireballs (but still not as sizeable as the ridiculously large fireballs in the comic), there are smoke clouds so big they obscure the planet's surface from space...and below it, you can see glimpses of the surface...turned to molten slag.

Quite clearly shows us that "molten slag" is used literally in all of those BDZ quotes.

As for why my comic post does not show crust shattering/etc, the pictures may have been indicative of the immediate effects the instant the weapons hit, and gigaton weaponry still isn't enough to noticeably wreak the continental crust in a single hit.

And yet this is supposed to be a normal, run-of-the-mill habitable Earth-like planet, yes?
Yes.


It isn't even ignored posts that people are pissed off about, mostly you ignoring evidence and arguements without even a "How do you do".
-Mike
On the contrary, I respond to every part (unless if I have to snip) of every post that I respond to, which costs me hours every time I participate in a long debate. All of the "ignored" (read: missed) evidence resides on posts that I did not address at all, because I never got to them.

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Re: The UFP and The Dominion Vs the GE

Post by Admiral Breetai » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:19 pm

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:
Mike DiCenso wrote:
On the contrary, I respond to every part (unless if I have to snip) of every post that I respond to, which costs me hours every time I participate in a long debate. All of the "ignored" (read: missed) evidence resides on posts that I did not address at all, because I never got to them.
you lying troll..you've been ducking me about your bullshit trillions of vessel fanfiction for days

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Re: The UFP and The Dominion Vs the GE

Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:09 am

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: The fact that the picture shows a noticeable curvature of the planet means that the explosions are almost comically (hahah...hahahah) large.

There is also this:

Image
From a CCG (not very high canon, but the artwork is still canon nevertheless).
Notice that, in addition to the very sizeable fireballs (but still not as sizeable as the ridiculously large fireballs in the comic), there are smoke clouds so big they obscure the planet's surface from space...and below it, you can see glimpses of the surface...turned to molten slag.

Quite clearly shows us that "molten slag" is used literally in all of those BDZ quotes.

As for why my comic post does not show crust shattering/etc, the pictures may have been indicative of the immediate effects the instant the weapons hit, and gigaton weaponry still isn't enough to noticeably wreak the continental crust in a single hit

That pic was debunked as evidence of gigaton-yeild weapons here, here, and here by Jedi Master Spock, Nowhereman10, and I. Oh and by a few other participants as well.

Mike DiCenso wrote: And yet this is supposed to be a normal, run-of-the-mill habitable Earth-like planet, yes?
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Yes.
Then we've got a big problem since it is at best unreliable (whatever source that comic panel is from). There's a similar panel I recall from a very old DC comics Star Trek comic that shows a fleet of starships bombarding a Klingon world from orbit and you see huge, overexaggerated explosions.

So the planet's curvature is overexaggerated, the bolts cause really narrow mushroom clouds in a bizarrely thick atmosphere when it's supposed to be very much like Earth, and there are no shockwaves, firestorms, crustal displacement of any kind, etc.

Don't you find anything wrong with that?
StarWarsStarTrek wrote:On the contrary, I respond to every part (unless if I have to snip) of every post that I respond to, which costs me hours every time I participate in a long debate. All of the "ignored" (read: missed) evidence resides on posts that I did not address at all, because I never got to them.
I gave you several good suggestions for how to deal with that. I again refer back to Kane Starkiller.
-Mike

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Re: The UFP and The Dominion Vs the GE

Post by Picard » Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:57 pm

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:
Picard wrote: Or maybe blow up the ships trying to map the area?
Feel free to explain how you detect, reach and destroy small patrol ships appearing at random spots in the hundreds of sextillions of cubic meters of space within 10 seconds, the time needed for it to run extensive scans on the night sky and hyperspeed away.
Care to prove these claims?

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Re: The UFP and The Dominion Vs the GE

Post by StarWarsStarTrek » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:05 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote: That pic was debunked as evidence of gigaton-yeild weapons here, here, and here by Jedi Master Spock, Nowhereman10, and I. Oh and by a few other participants as well.
Could you please repost a few of those arguments? I will happily respond to them.
Then we've got a big problem since it is at best unreliable (whatever source that comic panel is from). There's a similar panel I recall from a very old DC comics Star Trek comic that shows a fleet of starships bombarding a Klingon world from orbit and you see huge, overexaggerated explosions.
ST EU isn't canon. SW EU is.

So the planet's curvature is overexaggerated,
...or the fireball's really large.
the bolts cause really narrow mushroom clouds in a bizarrely thick atmosphere when it's supposed to be very much like Earth, and there are no shockwaves, firestorms, crustal displacement of any kind, etc.

Don't you find anything wrong with that?
Mike, there have been plenty of pro Trek debaters; possibly you yourself, who have cited comic book panels in both the ICS thread and various others as evidence of SW firepower being inferior.

If you find that comic book visuals are inaccurate and overexaggerated, fine. But please do not bring them up yourself. And this also calls into question why the visuals of TCW are analyzed as if they are completely accurate, even though Obi Wan's facial strucutre is fundamentally different from that of the films, for example.

But whether or not those fireballs are accurate, there is no reasonable doubt that SW weapons can render planets uninhabitable. Whether or not you feel that they can burn the crust off a planet is more disputed. But rendering it uninhabitable, which is what is required for this scenario to work? Modern nuclear arsenal's are almost sufficient.

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