At Admiral Breetai

[StarWarsStarTrek]

I've been searching through your post, and you really don't seem to like me. You've constantly sniped at me, and yet refuse to debate me openly without resorting to flaming. So therefore, I'll challenge you too to a debate like the still not starting debate with darkstar. You see, you accuse me of dodging and evading arguments, so here's my disproof of that. The conditions and my opening argument is the same as mine with the debate vs darkstar.



1. Try to keep things civil
2. The suspension of disbelief method is used unless if there is a quite irrevocable contradiction.
3. Typically, the debate is the Empire vs the Federation, but how about we make it the Galactic Federation of Free Alliances vs the 24th century Alpha Quadrant? Why? Because it would be more fair, and I feel guilty about arguing for a quite obvious evil Galactic Empire.
4. We use the canon policy given by Leland Chase; the EU is C canon. It's a part of the Star Wars universe, hence the term expanded universe, and to deny the vast majority of Star Wars material is a cheap copout.

My opening argument:

Space combat - the fact is, especially with the parameters, the ICS's are canon. Therefore, the statistics in it are canon. The burden of proof is not on me to prove them valid. Unless if you can provide an argument that debunks the ICS's, Star Wars pwns Star Trek quite handily in space combat.

Land combat - in Star Trek Voyager the 37s, phasers hit rocks...and cause some sparks. They don't even heat up the rocks, or cause any noticeable effect. This is consistent with almost all Star Trek episodes; phasers are not the uber vaporizing power weapons that some trekkies claim they are. They have been shown to have higher power settings, but in combat they are rarely used. Therefore, said power settings are either too impractical to use in combat or redshirts are morons.

Star Trek's problems go beyond that. They have no combined arms warfare. No tanks, no artillery, no grenades, no motors, not even body armor. Their phasers have terrible ergonomics, rarely any trigger guards or sights are seen. In Star Trek firefights often times turn into hand to hand combat, with guys with knives routinely beating guys with phasers. Star Trek ground forces would likely get their asses handed to them by WW1 ground forces. Star Wars ground forces have advanced body armor, automatic weapons, armored vehicles, artillery and overall a better ability to wage combined arms warfare than Star Trek does.

Industrial capability - The Galactic Federation of Free Alliances has up to a million member worlds. The Federation has...at most 1000, and the other Alpha Quadrant powers are unlikely to have much more or less. A long terms conventional war against a foe with 2:1 industrial odds is a big stretch. Against at least 1000:1 odds like in this war, fighting a long term conventional war is batshit insane unless if you have some extreme technological advantage. The only way that the Federation can possibly win is if they can win very, very quickly, but their relatively limited warp drive prevents that from happening.

Numbers - Star Wars has 100 quadrillion beings. The Alpha Quadrant has...trillions? This isn't really a contest, is it? Even if the Galactic Alliance only does a 1% draft of the population, that's 1 quadrillion soldiers, enough to outnumber the entire Star Trek civilian population.

A common rebuttal is the seemingly extremely low figures for the size of the Clone Army, aka about 3 million. This, however, is an absurd figure. That would be less soldiers than those fought in WW1 or WW2, which was over a single planet. Several contradictions to the 3 million figure occur:

1. Iirc, early in the Clone Wars the Republic orders an extra 1000 Acclamators. Add up the crew of that many Acclamators, and the number's about 50 million. The crew was entirely made up of clones; ironically, this statement comes from Karen Traviss.
2. Shock troopers were said to have a figuratively omnipresence on Coruscant. Coruscant has at least a trillion beings, and Galactic city spans basically the entire surface of Coruscant. This would mean that at least a billion shock troopers on Coruscant would be needed.
3. According to some sources, the CIS has quintillions of battle droids. This is likely an exaggeration, but there are somewhat more reasonable claims of quadrillions of battle droids. A 3 million man clone army would be absurdly outnumbered to the point in which they would have gotten curbstomped, even given the rather low competence of B1 battle droids.
4. In Star Wars Republic Commando, one of the main characters comments on the low numbers of the Clone Army and suspects that there is somebody manipulating the war.
5. The ROTS ICS mentions grand armies in plural form. Could there be more than one grand army?
6. There are indeed examples of non clone personnel in the GAR.
7. Based on the organizational structure of the clone army and the command relationship between the Jedi and the clones, if you were to take into account that there are 10,000 Jedi in the PT, the number of clones in relation to that would be far larger than 3 million.

We are referring to the Galactic Federation of Free Alliances, not the Galactic Republic and its Grand Army of the Republic, which was secretly being sabotaged by Palpatine, so this doesn't really apply, does it? In order to maintain even a 1:1000 police:citizen ratio, the Galactic Alliance would have to have at least 1 billion GAS troopers on Coruscant.

As for ship counts, the Liberation of Coruscant from the Yuuzhang Vong involved tens of thousands of ships. The GFFA lost 300 capital ships. There are likely at least tens of millions of smaller patrol ships, which would be needed simply to maintain order along the vast expanses of the Star Wars galaxy. In comparison, the Federation was devastated by the loss of 50 ships. The dominion in full war mobilization had about 30,000 ships. Star Wars clearly has the advantage here.

Hyperdrive vs warp - Even the lower end hyperdrive figures are faster than warp drive. In order to allow for casual galactic travel like hyperdrive does, it would have to be able to go at extreme speeds, far faster than warp drive. The fact is that the Voyager took 7 years to cross the alpha quadrant even with help from various dues ex machinas. In Star Wars, crossing the galaxy takes at most weeks.

This is further evidence that Star Wars wins against Star Trek with ease. The Alpha Quadrant forces can't mount any invasion of the Star Wars galaxy because their ships are simply too slow. They can't reliably send reinforcements across major portions of the quadrant because that would take too long. Therefore, they'd play an entirely defensive game where they spread their forces dangerously thin, because their forces can't afford to have to go across large distances to defend a territory. The GFFA can basically attack anywhere at anytime with no warning, and then retreat with no fear of the slower ST ships from getting at them.

[Admiral Breetai]

I've been searching through your post, and you really don't seem to like me. You've constantly sniped at me, and yet refuse to debate me openly without resorting to flaming.

I don't know enough to form an opinion about you..and I'll treat any one I perceive as out of line or biased like this..i honestly don't care who they are, conversely debate properly and I'll be passive and polite

step outta line..and well things will get rough...

So therefore, I'll challenge you too to a debate like the still not starting debate with darkstar. You see, you accuse me of dodging and evading arguments, so here's my disproof of that. The conditions and my opening argument is the same as mine with the debate vs darkstar.

this isn't proof of anything this is you howling at me to stop calling you out on things your guilty..of and glove slapping me..like some old tv movie..'bout dueling at sunrise

I find it amusing

1. Try to keep things civil

be honest stop wanking wars...and look at things objectively and I'll gladly do so

LOL this is so stupid...seriously this is just..oh lulz...

2. The suspension of disbelief method is used unless if there is a quite irrevocable contradiction.

if we really do this sillyness and I'm sorry to those form as vs s...but these public debates really are asinine...a person can prove just as much arguing in a vs thread then they can..engaging in these pointless spectacles of wongite indulgence...

under no circumstances should either participant stipulate the rules you wanna debate go friggen get..picard or mike...or netguru if he's still around and have one of them set up the who the where..and the whyfore...

other wise this is just an indulgence in your cyberpride and I'm not wasting me time on something to juvenile

3. Typically, the debate is the Empire vs the Federation, but how about we make it the Galactic Federation of Free Alliances vs the 24th century Alpha Quadrant? Why? Because it would be more fair, and I feel guilty about arguing for a quite obvious evil Galactic Empire.

it would be a rape stomp of epic proportions..is what it would be the entire friggen AQ power house? fer real..like all races? oh man

4. We use the canon policy given by Leland Chase; the EU is C canon. It's a part of the Star Wars universe, hence the term expanded universe, and to deny the vast majority of Star Wars material is a cheap copout.

how about this we go by consistent high end showings..we leave any caculations made by fans at the door..toss the ICS..and go purely by primary canon..anything else..is essentially..supporting officially sanctioned..fan masturbation..

My opening argument:

your not listing arguments..your listing demands...

Space combat - the fact is, especially with the parameters, the ICS's are canon. Therefore, the statistics in it are canon. The burden of proof is not on me to prove them valid. Unless if you can provide an argument that debunks the ICS's, Star Wars pwns Star Trek quite handily in space combat.

your are entirely unable to win a debate with out resorting to a cop out of epic proportions which is this..

but if you wanna go by high end showings.. obliterating all organic matter on a planet and leaving it a dead wasteland inside of..well a second or so far outstrips anything...shown in the ICS done by a rinky dink..klingon ship

Land combat - in Star Trek Voyager the 37s, phasers hit rocks...and cause some sparks. They don't even heat up the rocks, or cause any noticeable effect. This is consistent with almost all Star Trek episodes; phasers are not the uber vaporizing power weapons that some trekkies claim they are. They have been shown to have higher power settings, but in combat they are rarely used. Therefore, said power settings are either too impractical to use in combat or redshirts are morons.

right lie and use low end showings..for only one side...while wank out the other..because this is..entirely..your idea of a gentlemenly..debate

]Star Trek's problems go beyond that. They have no combined arms warfare. No tanks, no artillery, no grenades, no motors, not even body armor. Their phasers have terrible ergonomics, rarely any trigger guards or sights are seen. In Star Trek firefights often times turn into hand to hand combat, with guys with knives routinely beating guys with phasers. Star Trek ground forces would likely get their asses handed to them by WW1 ground forces. Star Wars ground forces have advanced body armor, automatic weapons, armored vehicles, artillery and overall a better ability to wage combined arms warfare than Star Trek does.

when your cap ships can turn worlds into smoking crater filled death wholes..and target individual soldiers..and hell even germs...from orbit..or in the case of some species a hundred lightyears out...tanks become..useless

Industrial capability - The Galactic Federation of Free Alliances has up to a million member worlds. The Federation has...at most 1000, and the other Alpha Quadrant powers are unlikely to have much more or less. A long terms conventional war against a foe with 2:1 industrial odds is a big stretch. Against at least 1000:1 odds like in this war, fighting a long term conventional war is batshit insane unless if you have some extreme technological advantage. The only way that the Federation can possibly win is if they can win very, very quickly, but their relatively limited warp drive prevents that from happening.

we've seen one side...go from barely able to loose forty ships..to considering the loss of a thousand or so..not over all detrimental to the war effort

going even with a race who's industrial capacity was so insane with three shipyards..they spammed some forty or so thousand vessels..inside of a year

but of course you being totally unable to use anything but low showings...is well typical

Numbers - Star Wars has 100 quadrillion beings. The Alpha Quadrant has...trillions? This isn't really a contest, is it? Even if the Galactic Alliance only does a 1% draft of the population, that's 1 quadrillion soldiers, enough to outnumber the entire Star Trek civilian population.

none of who will ever land planet side

A common rebuttal is the seemingly extremely low figures for the size of the Clone Army, aka about 3 million. This, however, is an absurd figure. That would be less soldiers than those fought in WW1 or WW2, which was over a single planet. Several contradictions to the 3 million figure occur:

primary canon supports that figure..so deal with it

[

1. Iirc, early in the Clone Wars the Republic orders an extra 1000 Acclamators. Add up the crew of that many Acclamators, and the number's about 50 million. The crew was entirely made up of clones; ironically, this statement comes from Karen Traviss.
2. Shock troopers were said to have a figuratively omnipresence on Coruscant. Coruscant has at least a trillion beings, and Galactic city spans basically the entire surface of Coruscant. This would mean that at least a billion shock troopers on Coruscant would be needed.

not shown or supported by the movie


[

3. According to some sources, the CIS has quintillions of battle droids. This is likely an exaggeration, but there are somewhat more reasonable claims of quadrillions of battle droids. A 3 million man clone army would be absurdly outnumbered to the point in which they would have gotten curbstomped, even given the rather low competence of B1 battle droids.

never supported by the movie...

4. In Star Wars Republic Commando, one of the main characters comments on the low numbers of the Clone Army and suspects that there is somebody manipulating the war.
5. The ROTS ICS mentions grand armies in plural form. Could there be more than one grand army?

never supported by the films..

]6. There are indeed examples of non clone personnel in the GAR.
7. Based on the organizational structure of the clone army and the command relationship between the Jedi and the clones, if you were to take into account that there are 10,000 Jedi in the PT, the number of clones in relation to that would be far larger than 3 million.

provide direct statements from the movie...on the size of this army

We are referring to the Galactic Federation of Free Alliances, not the Galactic Republic and its Grand Army of the Republic, which was secretly being sabotaged by Palpatine, so this doesn't really apply, does it? In order to maintain even a 1:1000 police:citizen ratio, the Galactic Alliance would have to have at least 1 billion GAS troopers on Coruscant.

congratulations on posting the largest and most hilariously obvious red herring I have ever seen outside of DBZ fans essays on powerscaling

As for ship counts, the Liberation of Coruscant from the Yuuzhang Vong involved tens of thousands of ships. The GFFA lost 300 capital ships. There are likely at least tens of millions of smaller patrol ships, which would be needed simply to maintain order along the vast expanses of the Star Wars galaxy. In comparison, the Federation was devastated by the loss of 50 ships. The dominion in full war mobilization had about 30,000 ships. Star Wars clearly has the advantage here.

of course none of this is supported by primary canon..and lulz only thirty thousand ships?

Hyperdrive vs warp - Even the lower end hyperdrive figures are faster than warp drive. In order to allow for casual galactic travel like hyperdrive does, it would have to be able to go at extreme speeds, far faster than warp drive. The fact is that the Voyager took 7 years to cross the alpha quadrant even with help from various dues ex machinas. In Star Wars, crossing the galaxy takes at most weeks.

yeah its a good thing Janeway turned over some really neat ftl tech ontop of everything else

This is further evidence that Star Wars wins against Star Trek with ease. The Alpha Quadrant forces can't mount any invasion of the Star Wars galaxy because their ships are simply too slow. They can't reliably send reinforcements across major portions of the quadrant because that would take too long. Therefore, they'd play an entirely defensive game where they spread their forces dangerously thin, because their forces can't afford to have to go across large distances to defend a territory. The GFFA can basically attack anywhere at anytime with no warning, and then retreat with no fear of the slower ST ships from getting at them.

the problem with this is..your not actually debating at this point none of this was a debate...you started out with "DURR BREETAI IS A BULLY" then went to..essentially start something..with out any arbitration..using completely inflated numbers..lies..low end showings...and generally just throwing a temper tantrum because I'm not..as nice as mike and wilga and the others you debate against....you aren't trying to prove anything and this isn't some manly exorcise of vindicating yourself

you aren't even capable of doing a thread like this properly in and of itself...further more you refuse to acknowledge the consistent high end showings of the other side..continue to use evidence unsupported by the films..and are literally trolling me with this thread

so I ask you man..are you trying to learn and improve yourself as a member..or are you trying to act all cool..and be a mini mike wong..with your public challenges and what have you?

because..either way..your doing it wrong man..

[Admiral Breetai]

hey mods...I don't mean this image as flaming or demeaning at all..so if you guys take it that way let me offer you my humblest apologies...it's just I find this situation and the actions taken by SWSt/SFF to be so hilarious..that I made something to discuss the irony of the situation

sadly I couldn't find any silly looking kirk vs vader images so

hopefully this..breaks the tension and sheds some light on my thoughts on the absurdity

[StarWarsStarTrek]

I don't know enough to form an opinion about you..and I'll treat any one I perceive as out of line or biased like this..i honestly don't care who they are, conversely debate properly and I'll be passive and polite

step outta line..and well things will get rough...

It's more than just saying it once; you've gone around to several different threads and bashed me, often times behind my back. This is what you call polite?

this isn't proof of anything this is you howling at me to stop calling you out on things your guilty..of and glove slapping me..like some old tv movie..'bout dueling at sunrise

I find it amusing

So you're admitting that you've been going to various threads and bashing me behind my back.

be honest stop wanking wars...and look at things objectively and I'll gladly do so

LOL this is so stupid...seriously this is just..oh lulz...

You think that it's stupid to try to debate civilly? Gosh. Such hypocrisy is disturbing.

if we really do this sillyness and I'm sorry to those form as vs s...but these public debates really are asinine...a person can prove just as much arguing in a vs thread then they can..engaging in these pointless spectacles of wongite indulgence...

under no circumstances should either participant stipulate the rules you wanna debate go friggen get..picard or mike...or netguru if he's still around and have one of them set up the who the where..and the whyfore...

other wise this is just an indulgence in your cyberpride and I'm not wasting me time on something to juvenile

How does this have anything to do with my statement? Did you even read it? Do you even know what the suspension of disbelief method is? Or are you just taking this as an excuse to bash me some more?

it would be a rape stomp of epic proportions..is what it would be the entire friggen AQ power house? fer real..like all races? oh man

Except that you haven't proven this.

how about this we go by consistent high end showings..we leave any caculations made by fans at the door..toss the ICS..and go purely by primary canon..anything else..is essentially..supporting officially sanctioned..fan masturbation..

No, it's called official canon policy, approved by Lucasarts, the company in charge of Star Wars. You think it's fan masturbation? Too bad. You don't own Star Wars.

your not listing arguments..your listing demands...

Why don't you actually read my post if you want to criticize it?

your are entirely unable to win a debate with out resorting to a cop out of epic proportions which is this..

How is that a cop out? The ICS is canon, and you can call it fan masturbation, but it's still canon, and you don't own Star Wars.

but if you wanna go by high end showings.. obliterating all organic matter on a planet and leaving it a dead wasteland inside of..well a second or so far outstrips anything...shown in the ICS done by a rinky dink..klingon ship

On the contrary, the AOTC ICS mentions BDZs that turn the entire upper crust of a planet into molten slag. That would also mean turning all organic species into molten slag or otherwise destroyed manner, so your observation in this case is false. Turning the entire upper crust into slag is far, far more powerful and requires far, far more energy than wiping out organic life and leaving it a dead wasteland, given that it's not possible via any modern weapons.

right lie and use low end showings..for only one side...while wank out the other..because this is..entirely..your idea of a gentlemenly..debate

Why don't you actually provide evidence? Be more specific. Prove that I'm lying, or that I'm wanking. Provide counter points to my claims using evidence from episodes, movies, scripts, etc. Show math, visual observations, dialogue analysis, etc. Instead, you simply make a completely unsupported claim while using lots of ...s.

when your cap ships can turn worlds into smoking crater filled death wholes..and target individual soldiers..and hell even germs...from orbit..or in the case of some species a hundred lightyears out...tanks become..useless

Massive red herring, and ignoring 90% of my post. Counter the other points, such as the lack of redshirt body armor, grenades, etc.

we've seen one side...go from barely able to loose forty ships..to considering the loss of a thousand or so..not over all detrimental to the war effort

Red herring. We're not talking about rate of technological progress.

going even with a race who's industrial capacity was so insane with three shipyards..they spammed some forty or so thousand vessels..inside of a year

Source?

but of course you being totally unable to use anything but low showings...is well typical

Low end showings? I was using high end showings for both sides. Evidence please.

none of who will ever land planet side

An extremely vague and unsupported statement/quote, and a red herring too.

primary canon supports that figure..so deal with it

Evidence? Primary canon, aka G canon, does not support that units means soldiers.

not shown or supported by the movie



never supported by the movie...


never supported by the films..


provide direct statements from the movie...on the size of this army

As much as you call it fan masturbation, the EU is canon, and you don't own Star Wars. If you're going to deny the EU, you're basically not arguing Star Wars vs Star Trek, you're arguing your modified version of Star Wars vs Star Trek, and again, you don't own Star Wars.

congratulations on posting the largest and most hilariously obvious red herring I have ever seen outside of DBZ fans essays on powerscaling

As usual, you don't provide any evidence supporting your statement.

of course none of this is supported by primary canon..and lulz only thirty thousand ships?

None of it is contradicted by G canon either, so therefore it remains valid.

yeah its a good thing Janeway turned over some really neat ftl tech ontop of everything else

Massive red herring, because it's still slower than hyperdrive.

the problem with this is..your not actually debating at this point none of this was a debate...you started out with "DURR BREETAI IS A BULLY" then went to..essentially start something..with out any arbitration..using completely inflated numbers..lies..low end showings...and generally just throwing a temper tantrum because I'm not..as nice as mike and wilga and the others you debate against....you aren't trying to prove anything and this isn't some manly exorcise of vindicating yourself

Prove it. You provided absolutely no evidence. No links, no examples, no analysis, no math...just literally completely unsupported claims.

you aren't even capable of doing a thread like this properly in and of itself...further more you refuse to acknowledge the consistent high end showings of the other side..continue to use evidence unsupported by the films..and are literally trolling me with this thread

so I ask you man..are you trying to learn and improve yourself as a member..or are you trying to act all cool..and be a mini mike wong..with your public challenges and what have you?

because..either way..your doing it wrong man..

Why don't you provide math, visual analysis, etc. to support your claims? Or are these beyond you? You'd literally quote a huge paragraph from me and say "this is a lie" or something like that without providing even one example to support your statement. Not one.

[Admiral Breetai]

It's more than just saying it once; you've gone around to several different threads and bashed me, often times behind my back. This is what you call polite?]

I treat you to your face the exact same way I treat you when your not on so don't try this..crap because your going to loose it

So you're admitting that you've been going to various threads and bashing me behind my back]

what does me thinking your completely silly and wasting text space with this gargantuan attempt to act like E tough guy...even remotely have to do with your failed attempt at accusing me of poking fun at you behind your back

do you possess reading comprehension problems? are you a small child? if it's either I'll cease right now other wise short of mental deficiency or mind boggling inexperience there is no excuse for the blatant lies and distortion you pull every time you post

You think that it's stupid to try to debate civilly? Gosh. Such hypocrisy is disturbing.

only your trying to paint me out to be the bad guy for calling you out on your near constant lies and distortions of the truth on this forum and space battles..and are attempting to act like an internet tough guy and are hiding behind some asinine..aspect of sci fi debate culture to do it

How does this have anything to do with my statement? Did you even read it? Do you even know what the suspension of disbelief method is? Or are you just taking this as an excuse to bash me some more?

perhaps you should pay damn attention..in these gentlemanly duels neither party sets the standards..nor starts the argument

a third party does this...ere go..your not trying to do anything other then use this as an excuse to act monumentally juvenile..and flame people

Except that you haven't proven this.

...you mean like you do every post?

No, it's called official canon policy, approved by Lucasarts, the company in charge of Star Wars. You think it's fan masturbation? Too bad. You don't own Star Wars.

provide movie feats supporting the ICS or cease talking out of your rear end...

[

Why don't you actually read my post if you want to criticize it?

to quote a famous Greek General "Ask not of others what you are not willing yourself to do"

[
[

How is that a cop out? The ICS is canon, and you can call it fan masturbation, but it's still canon, and you don't own Star Wars.

even those biased warsies on space battles consider the ICS to be the single most retarded piece of fiction ever assembled...do you not comprehend the retardation in it's continued use?

On the contrary, the AOTC ICS mentions BDZs that turn the entire upper crust of a planet into molten slag. That would also mean turning all organic species into molten slag or otherwise destroyed manner, so your observation in this case is false. Turning the entire upper crust into slag is far, far more powerful and requires far, far more energy than wiping out organic life and leaving it a dead wasteland, given that it's not possible via any modern weapons.

your not able to read..or just gloss shit over

one rinky dink BOP that was rigged as a science vessel turned an earth like world into a brown hunk of space crap...inside of a second

no single SW weapon even remotely comes close to that much less surpasses that fire power with the exception of the damn DS

Why don't you actually provide evidence? Be more specific.

you are completely unable to do this...why are you demanding others to do this?

Prove that I'm lying, or that I'm wanking.

I have multiple times across multiple threads

Provide counter points to my claims using evidence from episodes, movies, scripts, etc.

muster a debate that does not..involve parroting wong

Show math,

fan calculations are non canon third party numbers..you can leave that non sense at the door
[

visual observations, dialogue analysis, etc. Instead, you simply make a completely unsupported claim while using lots of ...s.

there are multiple episodes...that have been hit over your head by many posters where trek ships showcase fire power blatantly beyond..anything shown in the trek movies

Massive red herring, and ignoring 90% of my post. Counter the other points, such as the lack of redshirt body armor, grenades, etc.

so that's a yes your completely unable to read or willfully engage in dishonest distortions..

in Trek..those things are not needed..the enemy can annihilate you and your platoon from orbit..the germs on your skin..or your entire planet.. ground warfare is superfluous barring special circumstances like we saw in the siege episode

so yes I answered your question..you simply distorted it and lied like usual

Red herring. We're not talking about rate of technological progress.

you can't be serious? your so completely inept...that you resort to two distortions on the same topic

the industrial capacity of the federation alone..allows them to shift from considering a couple dozen vessels a mighty fleet to literally hurling thousands into a meat grinder..inside of what? three years?

[

Source?

go watch DS9 instead of the greatlinks fan videos your so fond of posting as evidence..

Low end showings? I was using high end showings for both sides. Evidence please.

your outright lying..now you literally cited low end showings...in the previous post

An extremely vague and unsupported statement/quote, and a red herring too.

you know the red herrings and ad homineims..and what have you..type debate tactics your messiah uses on SDN? yeah..leave it there...in any other vs board thats called copping out and hiding behind big words

1, the defensive platforms we've seen in trek can hurl out more fire power then anything shown in the Sw movies..in a full war time footing most critical worlds will be guarded by hundreds of vessels all with superior speed and range and fire power then has ever been displayed in any star wars film

[

Evidence? Primary canon, aka G canon, does not support that units means soldiers.

show me film evidence of numbers this large or cease citing the ICS

As much as you call it fan masturbation, the EU is canon, and you don't own Star Wars. If you're going to deny the EU, you're basically not arguing Star Wars vs Star Trek, you're arguing your modified version of Star Wars vs Star Trek, and again, you don't own Star Wars.

so that's a yes..nothing in the films supports the EU and ICS fire power figures

As usual, you don't provide any evidence supporting your statement.

projection is bad for your health

None of it is contradicted by G canon either, so therefore it remains valid.

"durr absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence"

no that's retarded...either it shows it or does not..there is no middle ground

again show me movie feats

[

Massive red herring, because it's still slower than hyperdrive.

six thousand lightyears..in twenty seconds?

when the SWU is smaller then the milky way?

Prove it. You provided absolutely no evidence. No links, no examples, no analysis, no math...just literally completely unsupported claims.

you have done nothing but lie..and parrot invalid fan theories from people who are essentially cyber terrorists you provide nothing and when they do they are lies..or fraudulence evidence you have no basis to make such a demand

Why don't you provide math, visual analysis, etc. to support your claims? Or are these beyond you? You'd literally quote a huge paragraph from me and say "this is a lie" or something like that without providing even one example to support your statement. Not one.

why don't you check your E pride...and back down from this blatant attempt to falsely discredit some one..that has more in common with a temper tantrum..then anything else

[StarWarsStarTrek]

...you mean like you do every post?

Concession accepted. I ask for proof, you literally refuse to provide proof.

provide movie feats supporting the ICS or cease talking out of your rear end...

And what you don't understand is that I don't need to provide movie feats to support the ICS, because it's canon, and doesn't need to be supported by G canon, merely not contradicted.

to quote a famous Greek General "Ask not of others what you are not willing yourself to do"

[

I have. I've made calculations, posted evidence, etc.

even those biased warsies on space battles consider the ICS to be the single most retarded piece of fiction ever assembled...do you not comprehend the retardation in it's continued use?

Last chance: debunk the ICS or concede. Appeals to popularity is a logical fallacy.

your not able to read..or just gloss shit over

one rinky dink BOP that was rigged as a science vessel turned an earth like world into a brown hunk of space crap...inside of a second

no single SW weapon even remotely comes close to that much less surpasses that fire power with the exception of the damn DS

Actually, a single star destroyer can turn the upper crust of a planet into molten slag based on multiple sources.

you are completely unable to do this...why are you demanding others to do this?

So you're admitting that you can't provide evidence? Concession accepted.

I have multiple times across multiple threads

Do so in this thread, because this is a separate debate.

muster a debate that does not..involve parroting wong

Concession accepted. More refusal to provide basic evidence.

fan calculations are non canon third party numbers..you can leave that non sense at the door

It's called math. If you think math is not canon, then please remember that this forum is supposed to be a technical discussion on SW vs ST.

there are multiple episodes...that have been hit over your head by many posters where trek ships showcase fire power blatantly beyond..anything shown in the trek movies

Provide evidence or concede. Please.

so that's a yes your completely unable to read or willfully engage in dishonest distortions..

in Trek..those things are not needed..the enemy can annihilate you and your platoon from orbit..the germs on your skin..or your entire planet.. ground warfare is superfluous barring special circumstances like we saw in the siege episode

so yes I answered your question..you simply distorted it and lied like usual

Except that such ability is not shown in any Star Trek episode where they could have been useful. There are many examples of redshirts having to land on the ground and go to places and engage in dangerous firefights when they could have used this uber orbital bombardment of yours to wipe out hostile foes. So either orbital bombardment isn't as powerful as you claim, or redshirts are morons, or both. Which one?

you can't be serious? your so completely inept...that you resort to two distortions on the same topic

the industrial capacity of the federation alone..allows them to shift from considering a couple dozen vessels a mighty fleet to literally hurling thousands into a meat grinder..inside of what? three years?

[

And the Galactic Alliance created literally tens of thousands of ships in a few years too.

go watch DS9 instead of the greatlinks fan videos your so fond of posting as evidence..

This is not evidence. You need to provide me with the evidence. You do not have the right to tell me to look for your evidence.

your outright lying..now you literally cited low end showings...in the previous post

Prove it. Show me evidence.

you know the red herrings and ad homineims..and what have you..type debate tactics your messiah uses on SDN? yeah..leave it there...in any other vs board thats called copping out and hiding behind big words

How is this a rebuttal? It completely does not respond to the point in which I made.

1, the defensive platforms we've seen in trek can hurl out more fire power then anything shown in the Sw movies..in a full war time footing most critical worlds will be guarded by hundreds of vessels all with superior speed and range and fire power then has ever been displayed in any star wars film

Prove it. Evidence, firepower feats, etc.

show me film evidence of numbers this large or cease citing the ICS

Why does there have to be film evidence? The ICS is canon, and it does not need G canon to support it; merely for it to not contradict it. You still don't understand Star Wars canon policy.

so that's a yes..nothing in the films supports the EU and ICS fire power figures

Yes, it does. For example, the turbolaser fire from the Rebel fleet was shaking the Death Star 2, which a guy at spacebattles calculated to be over 300 gigatons. His calculations seem to have merit. The math is very good.

projection is bad for your health

So you can't provide evidence, then? I ask for evidence, and you literally refuse.

"durr absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence"

no that's retarded...either it shows it or does not..there is no middle ground

again show me movie feats

[

You do not own Star Wars. According to the people that actually manage Star Wars, C canon is assumed to be correct unless if it's contradicted. It does not have to be supported, merely not contradicted. Is it contradicted? In this case, no. So I win.

six thousand lightyears..in twenty seconds?

when the SWU is smaller then the milky way?

Evidence please.

you have done nothing but lie..and parrot invalid fan theories from people who are essentially cyber terrorists you provide nothing and when they do they are lies..or fraudulence evidence you have no basis to make such a demand

Prove that it's invalid. And your accusation of being cyber terrorists is a serious one, you do realize that right?

why don't you check your E pride...and back down from this blatant attempt to falsely discredit some one..that has more in common with a temper tantrum..then anything else

You literally refuse to provide evidence. Like, I say evidence please and you say no. That's literally a sign of concession. If you can't prove your point, your point is not true in a debate. Fact.

[Admiral Breetai]

Prove that it's invalid. And your accusation of being cyber terrorists is a serious one, you do realize that right?

your pretty much guilty of breaking the rules with every single thing..you said in that last post but I'm going to touch on this

you just threatened me...your at the point now where your literally resorting to intimidation tactics...online to win an argument...

and considering SDN posters have threatened..and harassed people IRL before..yeah thats a serious route to go

[StarWarsStarTrek]

What? Intimidation? You accused people of being cyber terrorists. That's a serious accusation. You don't go around accusing people of commuting potentially federal crimes. Please take that accusation back. I am not intimidating you, but such an accusation of being a cyber terrorist is not somehin to be taken likely. You made a mistake, so please admit it.

You still literally refuse to provide evidence. In a debate, one of the most important things is to provide evidence. If you don't, your claim is about as unsupported as me claiming any random thing. You also don't seen to understand Star Wars canon policy. If something is mentioned in C canon, it's presumed to be true until or unless proven otherwise, suh as being directly contradicted by G canon. Sort of like how the Supreme Court doesn't have to specifically agree to every ruling, but can overrule them. G canon is like this. Of G canon had to support evey character, plot, technical detail and such of the Expanded Universe, then the Expanded Universe would not really have much new to add on, would it?

If you don't like the Star Wars canon policy, that doesn't change is validity. You don't own Star Wars.

The ICS gets the benefit of the doubt, so you would have to disprove it or concede. If the ICS's are canon, which they are unless proven otherwise to be incompatible with higher canon, then Star Wars wins with ease, With AOTC ICS stats, an acclamator could take on all of starfleet and win.

[Admiral Breetai]

What? Intimidation? You accused people of being cyber terrorists. That's a serious accusation. You don't go around accusing people of commuting potentially federal crimes. Please take that accusation back. I am not intimidating you, but such an accusation of being a cyber terrorist is not somehin to be taken likely. You made a mistake, so please admit it.

you act like they haven't demanded personal information and threaten and harassed people..in real life..and perpetrated willful acts of forum wars and what have you, they have by many accounts

]You still literally refuse to provide evidence. In a debate, one of the most important things is to provide evidence. If you don't, your claim is about as unsupported as me claiming any random thing. You also don't seen to understand Star Wars canon policy. If something is mentioned in C canon, it's presumed to be true until or unless proven otherwise, suh as being directly contradicted by G canon. Sort of like how the Supreme Court doesn't have to specifically agree to every ruling, but can overrule them. G canon is like this. Of G canon had to support evey character, plot, technical detail and such of the Expanded Universe, then the Expanded Universe would not really have much new to add on, would it

?

but your lying..constantly you don't contribute evidence you didn't even wait for arbitration..this is literally a bait thread...you who have a literal history with intentionally posting pro star wars wank threads designed to cause flame wars on SB and..your own false conduct threats and ignoring here

If you don't like the Star Wars canon policy, that doesn't change is validity. You don't own Star Wars.

the only thing that matters in any verses debate is the consistent showings perpetrated in the primary canon

that's the movies

The ICS gets the benefit of the doubt, so you would have to disprove it or concede. If the ICS's are canon, which they are unless proven otherwise to be incompatible with higher canon, then Star Wars wins with ease, With AOTC ICS stats, an acclamator could take on all of starfleet and win.

nothing in the movies supports this...

[StarWarsStarTrek]

More hypocrisy and double standards, eh? You accused me of calling you a liar, and then accuse me of lying.

1. You do not understand what cyberterrosim is.
2. You made up your own Star Wars canon policy. You do not own Star Wars. The ICS's are canon.
3. It doesn't matter what you think matters in a vs debate. If George Lucas says something is canon, and/or Lucasarts does, it's canon.
4. Where's your evidence? You still have none to support your pro Trek arguments.
5. JMS has confirmed that a challenge to a debate is within the forum rules.
6. G canon supports ICS figures; the Death Star. It scales down to ICS level stats. Therefore, he ICS has merit.

[Admiral Breetai]

More hypocrisy and double standards, eh? You accused me of calling you a liar, and then accuse me of lying.

\
you do that your guilty of it

1. You do not understand what cyberterrosim is.

you do not understand what dramatic laguage is evidently...not that they don't do things..that can be considered harassment..

2. You made up your own Star Wars canon policy. You do not own Star Wars. The ICS's are canon.

no I applied a demand for consistency and a very strict application of feats only to this debate..when this happen like it always does with Warsies..your argument collapsed entirely and you resorted to lying flaming and trolling

]3. It doesn't matter what you think matters in a vs debate. If George Lucas says something is canon, and/or Lucasarts does, it's canon.

Feats matter consistent showings...that's all..nothing in the movies supports the ICS..or the EU..you have failed to address this

4. Where's your evidence?

Star wars episode 1-6 and the total lack of anything supporting the ICS and the EU as to my argument regarding trek...well every single series

as to your misconduct..every post you've ever made on every forum you post on

[Admiral Breetai]

do you perhaps now see the problem? you don't even know where I'm coming from..you do but simply don't care...your so inexperienced you can't even recognize the debate style and it blows up in your face..you get furious..and then you patronize..your mistakes comes from that..you have trouble copping to being wrong and you don't know all the mryaids of different systems

this whole thing could of been avoided if you took a step back..stopped and taken a good look

[StarWarsStarTrek]

\
you do that your guilty of it

How is this rebuttal related to anything? "you do that your guilty of it?" Is this proper English? What are you trying to say?

you do not understand what dramatic laguage is evidently...not that they don't do things..that can be considered harassment..

So do you admit that you were out of line by calling people cyber terrorists?

no I applied a demand for consistency and a very strict application of feats only to this debate..when this happen like it always does with Warsies..your argument collapsed entirely and you resorted to lying flaming and trolling

Prove that the ICS is inconsistent.

Feats matter consistent showings...that's all..nothing in the movies supports the ICS..or the EU..you have failed to address this

And the ICS counts as a feat. What's your point?

You still don't get it; the ICS is able to stand on its own without any other support. Why? Because George Lucas says so. Too bad for you.

Star wars episode 1-6 and the total lack of anything supporting the ICS and the EU as to my argument regarding trek...well every single series

Wrong. The episodes do support the ICS. Example; the Death Star. Based on the movies, its firepower ranges from 1e32 to 1e38 joules. Scaling down from that, and star destroyers get firepower figures at least in the e25 to e30 range. That's literally millions/billions of times beyond the Enterprise's stated power generation.

If you believe the Death Star to be a chain reaction weapon, you have to prove it; and that does not mean saying omg it has already been proven; you need to prove it in this thread. That also does not negate the e30 joules needed to even move the Death Star at the speed that it has been implied to have moved on screen.

As for Star Trek, the episodes aren't consistent either. Should be consider it to be invalid evidence then? Based on your logic, yes.

For example, a good post from a debater in SB.com:

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showpost ... ostcount=4

The shield strength of the Enterprise occasionally gets blow 20 megajoules. Wow! That's low enough so that a modern day artillery barrage could wipe it out. That's so low that Star Wars infantry weapons could take it out with concentrated fire. How are you going to rationalize that?

as to your misconduct..every post you've ever made on every forum you post on

Really? So me saying RIP to the director of ESB who died is misconduct? What injustice is this?

[Admiral Breetai]

How is this rebuttal related to anything? "you do that your guilty of it?" Is this proper English? What are you trying to say?

is this an attempt at slickery I detect?

So do you admit that you were out of line by calling people cyber terrorists?

I think you should know by now I am very forward..in what i say


[

Prove that the ICS is inconsistent.

no see the burden is on you to prove that a completely outrageously high end medium has basis in the movies

you wanna claim this lunacy is legit..prove it

And the ICS counts as a feat. What's your point?

it is a massive high end showing that is contradicted by the primary canon

You still don't get it; the ICS is able to stand on its own without any other support. Why? Because George Lucas says so. Too bad for you.

word of god is entirely irrelevant either he creates a consistent medium feats and the consistency there in over rule everything or he can go take his comments..some where else

besides numerous posters have supplied quotes by lucas on what he feels the EU is

[

Wrong. The episodes do support the ICS. Example; the Death Star. Based on the movies, its firepower ranges from 1e32 to 1e38 joules. Scaling down from that, and star destroyers get firepower figures at least in the e25 to e30 range. That's literally millions/billions of times beyond the Enterprise's stated power generation.

so basically the use of fan calcs and scaling..supposedly supports it

you know that smell when a bull takes a dump? yeah try again..with actual primary canon evidence this time

If you believe the Death Star to be a chain reaction weapon, you have to prove it; and that does not mean saying omg it has already been proven; you need to prove it in this thread. That also does not negate the e30 joules needed to even move the Death Star at the speed that it has been implied to have moved on screen.

did you confuse me with another poster? where did this come from?

As for Star Trek, the episodes aren't consistent either. Should be consider it to be invalid evidence then? Based on your logic, yes.

close to five decades of consistent high end showings

For example, a good post from a debater in SB.com:

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showpost ... ostcount=4

why are you supplying to me third party anylisis from a non canon source and a biased unobjective website?

]The shield strength of the Enterprise occasionally gets blow 20 megajoules. Wow! That's low enough so that a modern day artillery barrage could wipe it out. That's so low that Star Wars infantry weapons could take it out with concentrated fire. How are you going to rationalize that?

yes it's very obvious this mans analysis is a bastion of objectivity and correct assessment...

Really? So me saying RIP to the director of ESB who died is misconduct? What injustice is this?

oh oh okay every single but post but that one...

[Admiral Breetai]

alright then fair enough I'll even ignore the guy entirely...I'll calm down..but honestly mike..and I know he's not officially breaking any rules..well wasn't up till he started with concession accepted..but..boss his conduct really is difficult for me as a poster to deal with with out applying some type of sarcasm..

I'll withdraw