StarWarsStarTrek wrote:Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Air rarefaction prevents people from being too high if they stand outside.
Which is why the populace of Coruscant never flies kilometers high with their airspeeders, lest they all die of suffocation.
They obviously don't have
any method around this.
Until you provide proof that there's any special tech there, what we're left with is people clearly living in the upper levels and not having problems to breathe.
Tell me one thing. How high above see level do you think those rooftops are?
It's a small difference in comparison to the distance between them and the ships, fighting hundreds of km above.
The ships were just a few hundred meters or so above the atmosphere of Coruscant.
HAHAHAHAHALOLOLOL
Hey fucker. Do you know how far up a planet's atmosphere extends, by chance?
That's twice comical.
Ah? So those blue and red bolts were not turbolasers?
When did I deny that they were turbolasers? How do you possibly get that perception from my question?
As I said, we see what is easily identified as heavy turbolasers (or even very heavy TLs in the case of the Munificents' prow guns) being used.
And obviously not all ships were drained since we saw a CIS battleship's unique shields flare up on contact from enemy fire.
That said, in general shields don't show up at all, save for a few ones (like the thermal shields from TCWS used on one of the CIS new ships I think).
But it doesn't matter. That ship clearly had shields still up. We also saw groups of Venators descending into the battle zone by groups of two or three, certainly not suggesting that they had already lost formation after minutes or hours of exhausting exchanges.
Any proof that the vast majority of species can see that well?
The book didn't mention that species with super sight were involved.
You're making shit up. Nothing new.
Whoever these people are, however high up their rooftops are, they can see starfighters. Therefore, seeing light turbolasers is not ridiculous to the slightest degree.
Aside from the fact that in the movie, you can barely see the bolts.
Those guns were actually capable of taking that very same ship's shields down. It's a very well known fact for anyone who has watched TPM.
Uh huh. You mean after they crossed the line of fire of several TF battleships and were hit perhaps three times? How do you know that the quad turbolasers hit them and not smaller point defense turrets? How is hitting a slow, ceremonial ship impressive at all?
Because those were the same and unique guns only seen firing? Because in fact most of the fire (>99%) clearly came from one ship? Because that Nubian ship has no reason to be a shitty tincan, considering the people it transports? Because the ship wasn't slow at all (even Dooku, running for his life, wasn't considerably faster, considering how he sailed past coreships docking with their rings)?
Why trying so hard to deny the fact that those truly immense quad cannons were capable to harm the Nubian ship as much as they could actually track and destroy N-1s?
Perhaps it's time you stop refering to that monolithic EU sorting of weapon calibers and pay more attention to higher canon material.
Tracking a ship that sweeps by very closely is harder than at some distance.
Those guns were the same seen taking down N-1s.
Oh, look. By all ICS logic, that yacht should have had shields at the petawatt level.
Which is contradicted by absolutely nothing in the scene.
Aside from the droids obviously not destroyed by yields similar to Ivy Mike you mean?
If anything, the fact that they took hits from turbolasers (light or heavy) which you seem to be implying were the ones or were remotely similar to the ones (indeed, you imply your belief that the QTLs are larger than the HTL's) in the novel quote; like, the ones that can "vaporize small towns", simply reinforces it.
Um, no, because I also considered that these cannons could dial their firepower down. You don't see N-1s being instantly flash-boiled when hit as they dive towards the DCS at the end of the movie.
Yet that's what should happen if yields could not be dialed down, since even in the ICS, there's a ratio of one to a thousand between snubfighter shielding and the shielding of larger ships like the ones used by high profile Naboo dignitaries for example.
Eh? What difference would that make? Firing for shit and giggles perhaps?
Do you sincerely fail to understand such a basic statement? Do you understand that, if there was a more convenient and important target to fire at, as is the case in the Battle of Coruscant, they would be hitting that instead? That the TF battleships were modified transports whose guns were likely to defend against the only threats to large transports whose shields "nobody can penetrate" would be small capital ships?
I'm simply not seeing whatever point of importance you're trying to make. If your guns are simply and TOTALLY inadequate, you won't use them. You won't see a WWII battleship using its heavy bores to take down zero fighters for example, even if said fighters kept flying just above the oceans' surface.
Heavy guns in TPM were fired at two different types of targets simply because they are
that versatile.
It means that obviously massive turbolasers can be used to track anything from N-1s to yachts or more, the bigger the target and the more distant the better, because those guns are still huge and not so fast to swivel.
In fact, considering their huge size, there's no reason to believe that they couldn't be used against capital ships >1 km.
Besides, the
yacht in question isn't excessively larger than a N-1. The 327 is quite skinny and very flat, which doesn't make it an easy to shoot vessel.
"This is not a warship" - Amidala.
None of the VIP Nubian ships were warships; that didn't prevent Saxton from slapping them with petawatt of shielding when he could. Damn, you don't even know your holy piss bible enough. What a sad state of affairs, really.
The quad cannons could hit both N-1s and a 78 meters long yacht,
and that at a distance of +100 km. See
for more info.
So the effective range for HTL's is under 100 kilometers in your opinion...
So you can't read. I said 100s for max effective range, and with rapidly decreasing hit rates. The battle of ROTJ doesn't lie.
... and 200 kilometers is around the max,...
I didn't say 200 km.
I'm actually leaving myself enough room for it to be about 100s of km.
... yet when it is convenient for your current argument you claim that quad cannons clearly designed to hit capital ships can take out starfighters from 100+ kilometers away?
Not starfighters.
Did you actually see the amount of fire Olié flew the ship through before it actually got hit?
Perhaps he thought putting all on speed and getting out of the planet's gravity field was the best choice, especially if droid fighters would be launched. He was lucky it didn't happen at all.
That is a rather poor demonstration of blockade.
Mind you, we saw the same lack of fighter screen in TESB!
Heck, in TESB, the ISD that got ionized didn't even fire once at the incoming rebel ships.
So you claim that QTLs are similar in power to HTLs. You claim that both can take out starfighters. We both agree that the Queen's yacht took several hits before its shield shorted out (not overwhelmed) and once repaired easily shrugged the bolts off.
She wasn't hit again. Only buffeted by nearby flaking bolts.
We both agree that HTLs/QTLs can "vaporize small towns", although we disagree over the literal-ness of "vaporize" and the size of a SW small town, which you see to be around 1.5 megatons.
Not necessarily. Vaporizing a small town can happen with a couple dozen terajoules tops. Remember Hiroshima. Mos Espa was already several kilometers long, but it's always described as a city, not a small town.
Conclusion: Queen Amidala's yacht can take multiple megaton level shots, and by your own admission is hardly larger than a starfighter (and is not a warship, so it likely has weaker shield/area).
Already addressed earlier on in my post.
Cannons can be dialed.
They seem to be at least smart enough to use what's about good enough to take down a target based on its volume and, therefore, expected shielding capacity.
Way to miss the point. I'm showing that massive cannons, easily as big if not bigger than a Venator's HTLs, can hit both a long yacht and N-1 fighters.
In fact, once the N-1s came close to the Trade Federation Droid Control Ship, they had no problem to evade that fire anymore.
Flying close to structures and ships is what renders even the heaviest of turbolaser ineffective against fighters.
In the attack of the Malevolence, the Y-wings were only really threatened when they were at a certain distance from the ship. Not so much when they were flying close to it.
Same with the run on both Death Stars: all turbolaser pieces were tracking the fighters but they were too small and too quick, and evaded fire. But they were tracked nonetheless. Those turbolasers were supposed to be used against capital ships.
Here goes your claim of non-tracking of fighters by heavy weaponry.
Here goes your claim that SW weapons have piss poor accuracy and range. When we discuss firepower you gladly inflate other aspects of SW to deflate firepower. When we discuss industrial might, you gladly inflate other aspects of SW to deflate industry. You seem to change your stance depending on whatever suits you at the time.
If HTL's can track starfighters and hit them from 100+ kilometers away, and yet still a yacht barely larger can take several hits from these megaton level weapons, how do you win this debate to the slightest degree?
Because you can't keep an eye on the road, I'll remind you that this whole topic that's been going on was about discussing fighter tracking and weapon calibers.
Yes, we also talked about ranges, yes we also talked about firepower, but I believe I was clear enough on each topic.
Reality is that your argument is roasted and you're trying to accuse me of using red herring and changing subjects when it suits me so I never lose.
Fact is that I easily and perfectly demonstrated that heavy pieces can be seen tracking small vessels, and even hitting them at times. That those same cannons are also meant to be used against capital ships.
Meaning that I'm absolutely right in considering that the turbolasers referenced in the ROTS novelization can be such heavy pieces of weaponry, both tracking fighters and interlocking with other capital ships.
And it's those guns which could level a small town.
What I'm saying with that other element is that as much as we see big pieces used against small targets, we also have small pieces used against capital ships.
When they have nothing better to do, yes.
If they have nothing better to do but are absolutely worthless, no one uses them. That's why you won't see people firing their berettas at the hulls of merkava tanks.
I said the heavy turbolasers have a maximum effective range in the hundreds of km tops.
BY ME
The G canon novelization of Revenge of the Sith, higher up on the hierarchy than even TCW
The vast semisphere of the view wall bloomed with battle. Sophisticated sensor algorithims compressed the combat sprawled throughout the galactic capital's orbit to a view the naked eye could enjoy: cruisers hundreds of kilometres apart, exchanging fire at near lightspeed, appeared to be practically hull-to-hull, joined by pulsing cables of flame. Turbolaser blats became swift shafts of light that shattered into prismatic splinters against shields, or bloomed into miniature supernovae that swallowed ships whole ...
Is this sufficient evidence for you, Mr. O, coming from a G canon source?
BY YOUR LYING SELF
It just says they exchanged fire. There's no indication of the hit rate, i.e., the effective range.
What do you think you have demonstrated? My point still stands. There's zero mention of the hit rate. We're only given one information, of range. In fact, I'm being generous in claiming effective range. Others would exactly tab that as mere maximum range (meaning the effective range is shorter).
I suppose that by now, after having read that last post of mine, you better understand my position. I'm not denying stated maximum range. I'm disputing treating it as some particularly effective range, otherwise getting closer to ISDs would have changed nothing for the Rebels.
You disputed "hundreds of kilometers" as effective range.
When?
Mmm... I guess that's another episode of TCWS's 1st season you didn't watch.
It's the one where Acclamators (not Venators, my mistake) are seen entering the atmosphere of a planet, and shot at by CIS artillery pieces.
I remember it. No shield effects = shields were down.
Did you know that in the vaaaast majority of cases, you don't see shields doing anything when hit, always remaining invisible?
No, that's totally wrong. HEAVY turbolasers are known to track all types of targets, but are far more succesful with the largest ones, starting with ships as big as yachts or cargos.
Then why track the fighters and waste time instead of leaving that for the far more effective (at this) light turbolasers, friendly fighters and laser cannons and instead blowing up capital ships?
Because they can? Because it can happen that the closest danger to a ship isn't some distant enemy cruiser already locked into a battle with another comrade warship, but that fast approaching squadron of fighters and bombers?
Fighters & Capital ships in the films
We've never seen any kind of evidence of small TLs ever having the firepower that could vaporize a small town.
Except, you know, asteroids.
Debunked. Mike pointed this out several times in the past few days now. Good to see you keep denying them.
And the ICS's.
Contradicted. So why should I care?
It's quite fantastic that you think you can still convince me by citing the only one source that gives stupid amounts of firepower -the kind that can burn the entirety of Washington DC by accident- to point defense guns, in opposition to the vast majority that doesn't even dare going beyond attributing that kind of firepower or even less to HTLs.
In the higher canon, movies novelization and TCWS, where do you see evidence of light TLs being capable of vaporizing a small town, literally or not?
Um...this quote? What makes you think that I need more than one example from higher canon for my argument to be valid? Why is this quote alone not enough?
Additionally, asteroids. For example, some of them, which were clearly scalable by being in the same screen as the Falcon, are being vaporized by areas in which there don't even exist turbolasers (so presumably from point defense laser cannons) and output megatons.
Of course, the standard objection is to deny that asteroids were being vaporized at all, that there were just blue burst rounds from green turbolasers.
Sorry, I forgot to mention: aside from that very quote from the ROTS novelization, of course, because that one is in dispute.
