Starfleet Jedi

Here is an incomplete list of sources that support the AOTC ICS. Btw, it might be fair to stickie this one too, in order to avoid bias.

Displayed firepower/shields on par with ICS:

Star Wars Death Star - Death Star shrugging off supersonic/hypersonic mountain chunks
Star Wars Slave Ship - blatantly stated gigaton level laser cannons
Star Wars Legacy of the Force Revelations - 10 concussion missiles in airburst devastating a large Star Wars city, of which are the size of continents
Star Wars Legacy of the Force Invincible - turbolasers silhouetting large asteroids, cluster bombs rising at least a KM, laser cannons making explosions visible 5 kms up
Star Wars Empire Strikes Back - asteroid vaporization scene, theater shield
Star Wars Rise of Darth Vader - "multi megaton compression bombs"
Star Wars Revenge of the Sith novel - "vaporize a small town", calculated based on the estimated size of a Star Wars small town to be 200 gigatons
Star Wars Legacy of the Force Sacrifice - BDZ's implied as turning planets to slag, YV confirmed to have created moon sized craters in planets
Star Wars Scavenger Hunt - BDZ
Star Wars Emberlene - BDZ
Star Wars ROTS ICS - Victory class star destroyer power generation of >10^24 watts and the ability to convert most of it to its main guns, iirc turbolasers stated to cause magnitude 10 earthquakes
Star Wars Lando related books - continent destroying weapons


Displayed combat ranges on par with ICS:

Star Wars Return of the Jedi - final space battle
Star Wars Clone Wars No Prisoners - 500 meters stated to be extremely close, some battles happen on the upper limits of visual range
Star Wars Legacy of the Force Fury - space battles in long range
Star Wars Legacy of the Force Revelations - space battles in long range
Star Wars Legacy of the Force Invincible - space battles in long range
Star Wars Fate of the Jedi Backlash - 8 outdated cruisers could effectively blockade a planet, even stopping Luke Skywalker from leaving
Star Wars Death Star - battles happening in very long ranges
Star Wars Fate of the Jedi Vortex - battlefield hundreds of KMs long for a small scale engagement
Star Wars Legacy of the Force Inferno - space battles in long range

Displayed power generation on par with ICS:

Star Wars ROTS ICS - 10^24 watts or more
Star Wars Death Star - weekly output of several mains sequence stars
Star Wars Technical Journal - star destroyer consumes more energy in a hyperspace jump than some nations do in their existence
Star Wars A physician's desk office, 2nd edition - small sun
Star Wars A New Hope - Death Star
Star Wars Return of the Jedi - Death Star

Displayed industrial capability and size on par with ICS:

Star Wars Attack of the Clones - Coruscant
Star Wars Revenge of the Sith - Coruscant
Star Wars Legacy of the Force Sacrifice - 20,000 feet skyscrapers
Star Wars Fate of the Jedi Vortex - industrial moons
Star Wars Return of the Jedi - Death Star 2 built frighteningly fast
Star Wars A New Hope Novel - million star systems
Star Wars Death Star - asteroids being mined, huge transport envoys, the Death Star
Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic - Tarsus being continent sized

Displayed hyperdrive speed on par with ICS:

Practically all Star Wars sources - the ability to casually travel across the galaxy implies extremely high hyperdrive speeds

How do these sources confirm ICS? Please, as quotes and more are provided in the "List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS" as well as the "Base Delta Zero" thread that demonstrate contradiction. In this case, you're simply saying they support it is not good enough.
-Mike

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:Here is an incomplete list of sources that support the AOTC ICS. Btw, it might be fair to stickie this one too, in order to avoid bias.

Displayed firepower/shields on par with ICS:

Star Wars Death Star
Star Wars Slave Ship
Star Wars Legacy of the Force Revelations
Star Wars Legacy of the Force Invincible
Star Wars Empire Strikes Back
Star Wars Rise of Darth Vader
Star Wars Revenge of the Sith novel
Star Wars Legacy of the Force Sacrifice
Star Wars Scavenger Hunt
Star Wars Emberlene
Star Wars ROTS ICS

Displayed combat ranges on par with ICS:

Star Wars Return of the Jedi
Star Wars Clone Wars No Prisoners
Star Wars Legacy of the Force Fury
Star Wars Legacy of the Force Revelations
Star Wars Legacy of the Force Invincible
Star Wars Fate of the Jedi Backlash
Star Wars Death Star
Star Wars Fate of the Jedi Vortex
Star Wars Legacy of the Force Inferno

Displayed power generation on par with ICS:

Star Wars ROTS ICS
Star Wars Death Star
Star Wars Technical Journal
Star Wars A physician's desk office, 2nd edition
Star Wars A New Hope
Star Wars Return of the Jedi

Displayed industrial capability and size on par with ICS:

Star Wars Attack of the Clones
Star Wars Revenge of the Sith
Star Wars Legacy of the Force Sacrifice
Star Wars Fate of the Jedi Vortex
Star Wars Return of the Jedi
Star Wars A New Hope Novel
Star Wars Death Star
Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic

Displayed hyperdrive speed on par with ICS:

Practically all Star Wars sources

If you are going to make a list of sources that agree with the ICS that's great, and I was thinking of trying such a thing to try and find any source that remotely matched.

First you need to provide quotes, and screen caps as proof. Right now you just have a list that means nothing.

Second, you can't use the ICS as sources when trying to show the ICSs are in line with non-ICS sources.

Third I would suggest not using any book Saxton wrote as proof Saxton's work matches the rest of Star Wars.

Where do the movies or their novelizations support ICS? Nowhere. The RoTS novelization states that starships are fusion powered. The movies all consistantly show ranges less than under 10 km on average and at most 60-100 km (Death Star and ion cannon being exceptions). I want to see some real quotes and screencaps from our esteemed pro-Wars friend here. In the RoTS movie we see the Invisible Hand break up and burn in Coruscant's atmosphere, and the lower hull crumple on impact and slide out on the runway.

But I strongly suspect that with all the other threads, SWST won't come through the evidence, just more rhetorical sidesliping.
-Mike

I edited the OP.

Yes, you'll have to provide detailed quotes and references first.
Secondly, it's easy to spot your problem with your own data: you believe that anything that would disagree with the lower ends immediately supports the ICS in return.
It's a false dilemma. Heck, even the Slave Ship reference doesn't support the ICS because it refers to some recoil of an explosion in the giga-tonnage range for an ISD, while the ICS would obviously allow something around 700-800 teratons per salvo for the same ISD.
Other than that, many of the so claimed positives are actually far from them. Another example: "Death Star". The weekly output is in reference to when the reactor blows up, which makes it dubious to be taken as what happens when it works normally, especially when a third of said output is nowhere close to the claimed figure. More ironical, it's the same book that shows that watered down bolts, supposedly capable of scorching a city or two, or boiling a small sea or a large lake, would still be above what an ISD could unleash all at once - and the average city in SW is certainly not a clone of Taris.

There's also great fun to be had in seeing the ROTS:ICS being brought as support of the AOTC:ICS... since they're written by the same bloke.

I don't know what's with the industrial might and hyperspace speeds: the anti-ICSers have never ignored the existence of those achievements.
However, the claimed sublight accelerations, yes, we deny that. For obvious reasons.

So yes, we're going to wait for real quotations, and honestly take them for what they say from there.

Also, we do have one or two BDZ related threads, so you can always check them and see what's about the real firepower. Especially "Scavenger Hunt"! ;)

Mike DiCenso wrote:Where do the movies or their novelizations support ICS? Nowhere. The RoTS novelization states that starships are fusion powered. The movies all consistantly show ranges less than under 10 km on average and at most 60-100 km (Death Star and ion cannon being exceptions). I want to see some real quotes and screencaps from our esteemed pro-Wars friend here. In the RoTS movie we see the Invisible Hand break up and burn in Coruscant's atmosphere, and the lower hull crumple on impact and slide out on the runway.

But I strongly suspect that with all the other threads, SWST won't come through the evidence, just more rhetorical sidesliping.
-Mike

I think he wants to say that average "small town" in Star Wars is size of North Africa...

Never mind the fact that many of those listed events above are sub-gigatons.. and as such actually contradict the ICS.


That said: SWST, can you show me the supposed 200 gigatons on the acclamator? Since I'm pretty sure they don't actually exist on the studio model... which would be a direct contradiction with G and T cannon both.

Meaning it doesn't exist.

Meaning the 200 gigatons do not exist.

Trinoya wrote:Never mind the fact that many of those listed events above are sub-gigatons.. and as such actually contradict the ICS.


That said: SWST, can you show me the supposed 200 gigatons on the acclamator? Since I'm pretty sure they don't actually exist on the studio model... which would be a direct contradiction with G and T cannon both.

Meaning it doesn't exist.

Meaning the 200 gigatons do not exist.

Are you talking about the quad turbolasers themselves? We don't really get to see a detailed model of Acclamators in the movie, and remember that any Acclamators in AOTC would be earlier models that were likely rushed to the battle, given that they were certainly in a hurry. Later models might have been the ones to have had quad turbolasers. As for for the actual firepower, we don't see the Acclamators firing in the movies, or not in AOTC.

EDIT: about the Death Star shrugging off mountain chunks, if we were to assume a mountain the mass of mount everest; given that the Death Star got hit by many such chunks, this is fair and maybe low end, that's 7.316E+26 joules if moving at 0.05C as estimated by the footage of the Alderaan destruction, or over 1 petaton. No Federation ship; or Star Wars ship, is going to hurt that through brute force.

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:

Trinoya wrote:Never mind the fact that many of those listed events above are sub-gigatons.. and as such actually contradict the ICS.


That said: SWST, can you show me the supposed 200 gigatons on the acclamator? Since I'm pretty sure they don't actually exist on the studio model... which would be a direct contradiction with G and T cannon both.

Meaning it doesn't exist.

Meaning the 200 gigatons do not exist.

Are you talking about the quad turbolasers themselves? We don't really get to see a detailed model of Acclamators in the movie, and remember that any Acclamators in AOTC would be earlier models that were likely rushed to the battle, given that they were certainly in a hurry. Later models might have been the ones to have had quad turbolasers. As for for the actual firepower, we don't see the Acclamators firing in the movies, or not in AOTC.

The AOTC:ICS is supposed to represent the ships from the movie, not some later EU addition. The only escape route you have is to claim that those guns are receding pieces which can be brought out of their pits for some battle. We see the same Acclamators in TCWS and they don't have those guns either, even when in danger from enemy cap ships.

EDIT: about the Death Star shrugging off mountain chunks, if we were to assume a mountain the mass of mount everest; given that the Death Star got hit by many such chunks, this is fair and maybe low end, that's 7.316E+26 joules if moving at 0.05C as estimated by the footage of the Alderaan destruction, or over 1 petaton. No Federation ship; or Star Wars ship, is going to hurt that through brute force.

Although I agree that brute force would totally fail, and that applies to quite a great many SF universes, why do you assume that those mountain-sized rocks that got deflected were flying that fast?
We know the planet also turned into an asteroid field, which would be hard with the planetary mass scattered that fast. Besides, most of the planet was shunted into hyperspace, and since the surface, at least, obviously exploded, it certainly leaves the core and the mantle as the prime targets of that shunt effect. This is unfortunate, because they're also the best excuse as to why there would be so many rocks left there.
The TIE and the MF weren't pulverized either, so your speed figure is a high end.

Besides, is there any evidence that huge debris was going to hit the station dead center?
It's quite odd that the shields would be said to deflect those rocks if they had actually been flash-vaporized, considering the speeds (at 0.05c, you can't expect anything but such a vaporization - even a grazing hit would most likely turn such a fragment into a super white hot ball of plasma).
No, most likely, the shields shoved most of them aside, which would require only a fraction of their kinetic energy.

Also notice that from the footage, most of the high speed debris were expelled from the opposite side of the planet, not towards the Death Star.

Define "support."

I would suggest you define support as meaning "suggests the same thing as." Most of what you're referring to doesn't really test the ICS. They're very vague comments that could be interpreted pretty much however you like, and you're really reaching on the interpretations of those comments.

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:Star Wars Death Star - Death Star shrugging off supersonic/hypersonic mountain chunks

That neither supports nor contradicts the ICS.

Star Wars Slave Ship - blatantly stated gigaton level laser cannons

That comment is compatible with the ICS. That line even supports the ICS, because without making a great number of unusual assumptions, you could look at that quote and arrive in a similar ballpark as ICS figures.

It is essentially unique in using a word starting with "gigato*" outside of Saxton's material.

However, I have a question: Have you actually read the entirety of Slave Ship and checked to see if the rest of it is compatible with the ICS?

Star Wars Legacy of the Force Revelations - 10 concussion missiles in airburst devastating a large Star Wars city, of which are the size of continents

Just because a city is not described does not mean it's the size of a continent.

Star Wars Legacy of the Force Invincible - turbolasers silhouetting large asteroids, cluster bombs rising at least a KM, laser cannons making explosions visible 5 kms up

For the ICS to be correct, laser cannons should create explosions that have effects on observers 5 km below on the ground.

Star Wars Empire Strikes Back - asteroid vaporization scene, theater shield

The asteroid destruction scenes actually disagree with the ICS, rather than agreeing with it. The asteroids are smaller and less violently destroyed than Saxton would have liked them to be.

Star Wars Rise of Darth Vader - "multi megaton compression bombs"

Which does not relate to ICS level yields.

Star Wars Revenge of the Sith novel - "vaporize a small town", calculated based on the estimated size of a Star Wars small town to be 200 gigatons

That's a patently absurd calculation. 200 gigatons will not "vaporize a small town," it will flatten much of a continent. Small towns are not appreciably huge in Star Wars.

Star Wars Legacy of the Force Sacrifice - BDZ's implied as turning planets to slag, YV confirmed to have created moon sized craters in planets
Star Wars Scavenger Hunt - BDZ
Star Wars Emberlene - BDZ

Not one BDZ that I've seen looked at in detail actually supports the ICS. Especially not Scavenger Hunt.

Star Wars ROTS ICS - Victory class star destroyer power generation of >10^24 watts and the ability to convert most of it to its main guns, iirc turbolasers stated to cause magnitude 10 earthquakes
Star Wars Lando related books - continent destroying weapons

The ROTS ICS does fit with the AOTC ICS.

Displayed combat ranges on par with ICS:

Star Wars Return of the Jedi - final space battle
Star Wars Clone Wars No Prisoners - 500 meters stated to be extremely close, some battles happen on the upper limits of visual range
Star Wars Legacy of the Force Fury - space battles in long range
Star Wars Legacy of the Force Revelations - space battles in long range
Star Wars Legacy of the Force Invincible - space battles in long range
Star Wars Fate of the Jedi Backlash - 8 outdated cruisers could effectively blockade a planet, even stopping Luke Skywalker from leaving
Star Wars Death Star - battles happening in very long ranges
Star Wars Fate of the Jedi Vortex - battlefield hundreds of KMs long for a small scale engagement
Star Wars Legacy of the Force Inferno - space battles in long range

The ICS gives ranges of light minutes. Battles happening within hundreds of km or visual range do not fit with that. Most of these cases actually contradict the Saxtonite model of Star Wars.

Displayed power generation on par with ICS:

Star Wars ROTS ICS - 10^24 watts or more
Star Wars Death Star - weekly output of several mains sequence stars

Leaving aside, for the moment, the myriad ways in which the novel actually clarifies the Death Star's actual output (Mr. Oragahn mentioned that; the Death Star novel shows that a superlaser fired at 1/3 strength causes less destruction than a Saxtonite BDZ, which very clearly contradicts the ICS):

The weekly output of a main sequence star is, for the brighter ones like our own sun, only around e31-e32 joules. In order to meet the Saxtonite model of the Death Star, the Death Star needs to fire e38-e39 joule shots.

Star Wars Technical Journal - star destroyer consumes more energy in a hyperspace jump than some nations do in their existence

That's not saying much, since some planets have very small populations. It's one of the rare technical references that's compatible with the ICS; but it's not specific enough to be considered direct support for the ICS.

Star Wars A physician's desk office, 2nd edition - small sun

You'll have to clarify that.

Star Wars A New Hope - Death Star
Star Wars Return of the Jedi - Death Star

Not particularly, no. What's demonstrated is a very powerful weapon; not actually the power generation technologies the ICS outlines.

Displayed industrial capability and size on par with ICS:

Star Wars Attack of the Clones - Coruscant
Star Wars Revenge of the Sith - Coruscant
Star Wars Legacy of the Force Sacrifice - 20,000 feet skyscrapers
Star Wars Fate of the Jedi Vortex - industrial moons
Star Wars Return of the Jedi - Death Star 2 built frighteningly fast
Star Wars A New Hope Novel - million star systems
Star Wars Death Star - asteroids being mined, huge transport envoys, the Death Star
Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic - Tarsus being continent sized

Size and industrial capability are two different things. The million systems comment of the ANH novel is actually part of a body of evidence contradicting the Saxtonite view, which generally holds out for fifty million systems.

Displayed hyperdrive speed on par with ICS:

Practically all Star Wars sources - the ability to casually travel across the galaxy implies extremely high hyperdrive speeds

Actually, when we have both a speed and distance, we often see slow speeds.

Jedi Master Spock wrote:

Star Wars Technical Journal - star destroyer consumes more energy in a hyperspace jump than some nations do in their existence

That's not saying much, since some planets have very small populations. It's one of the rare technical references that's compatible with the ICS; but it's not specific enough to be considered direct support for the ICS.

Plus a nation is usually understood as a fraction of a planet's pop.
Let's take China's 1.331 Bn. Let's say they consume as much energy as the average Joe in the USA.
Based on this, we see that the averaged consumption per month is about 920 kw.h per month, or 3,312 MJ a month.

That's 39,744 MJ a year.
So that makes a total USA-ish Chinese consumption per year of 52,899,264 e12 J.

Let's make that 53 EJ/year.

Now let's say that nation existed for a thousand generations, or 25,000 years.

We get an historical energetic consumption total of: 1,325 ZJ.
Or 316.7 teratons.

Below than half the max output of a Venator, which we're sure is itself well below that of an ISD.

What I'm getting it is that according to the Atlas map, billion-heads worlds are already rare in SW.
And it's quite generous to consider that they'd be, on the average, dozens of millennia old.
If Earth is to be an example, China is one of the oldest nations, otherwise you can start looking in Europe, with geometrically varying nations beyond a millennium and a half at best.
Most of the nations are actually worth one or two centuries, sometimes less.

Then, as usual, nothing says that this energy is consumed in the blink of an eye.
A hyperspace jump is a continuous affair that needs constant powering (TPM). No power, no hyperspace, and we know some trips can last days or even weeks, perhaps even months for some ships, especially if none of them use high-traffic hyperlanes.

An hour is already 3600 seconds long and day is 86,400 seconds. Estimating the power consumption of a ship based on the total energy figure, working for a day, that's going to provide a power figure between four and five orders of magnitude below the initial total energy figure you'd use.

Quite clearly, all the most excessively generous parameters need to be in the bright green in order to hope to fit with the ICSes.

Ah, Mr. Oragahn has honored me with a response to you SWST, so I shall just add this tid-bit.




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This is the area that would be affected on the surface of the earth, by ONE gigaton.

1.


ONE.

That is all.

you really are completely full of it aren't you? I mean really the novelizations don't support the ICS at all..and I'm pretty sure being a big SW fan and all that the movies certainly don't

Admiral Breetai wrote:you really are completely full of it aren't you? I mean really the novelizations don't support the ICS at all..and I'm pretty sure being a big SW fan and all that the movies certainly don't

That is pretty much standard warsie tactics - If it doesn't support ICS, reshape/misinterpret it. If you can't reshape it, dismiss it. If you can't dismiss it, lie.