Starfleet Jedi

You know Star Wars: Death Star the novel? And how trekkies like to cite it of proof of their chain reaction theory? Well, guess what? The Death Star novel confirms that the Death Star has the power output of the weekly output of several main sequence stars.

I don't have the exact quote with me, but it's something like one of the main characters talking about firing the superlaser, and how, if anything misfired, the hypermatter reactor with the weekly power output of several main sequence stars would mean that he wouldn't live long enough to know about the misfire.

I bet you this thread won't get past noon without "EU is a separate universe."

And from there turns into yet another canon debate.

Actually, the novel also states that a shot at 1/3 power only charred a continent, and it did not carck it, and there were reactions continuing even after the shot was done.
Use the search function, it was discussed many times.

Also, while the power generation of the DS may be that of many stars, it still doesn't mean it can channel this power completely in its weapons.
Remember the DS has engines, shields, TLs, living quarters for over a million people, plus support crafts, etc, etc...

Actually we already covered that several times in other threads, and WILGA started one entirely devoted to that book btw. Time for a merger?

No, just put a link to that thread and tell our friend to continue this discussion there... :)

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:You know Star Wars: Death Star the novel? And how trekkies like to cite it of proof of their chain reaction theory? Well, guess what? The Death Star novel confirms that the Death Star has the power output of the weekly output of several main sequence stars.

I don't have the exact quote with me, but it's something like one of the main characters talking about firing the superlaser, and how, if anything misfired, the hypermatter reactor with the weekly power output of several main sequence stars would mean that he wouldn't live long enough to know about the misfire.

That one was debunked years ago, SWST. Simply speaking here are the quotes:

"If it didn't work - well, the hypermatter reactor was capable of generating an energy burst equivalent to the total weekly output of several main-sequence stars; if anything went wonky, it wasn't likely he'd be around long enough to notice."


This can go both ways, depending on how you want to interpret it. However...

"It took no more than an instant. Tenn knew that the beam's total destructive power was much bigger than matter-energy conversion limited to realspace. At full charge, the hyper-matter reactor provided a superluminal "boost" that caused much of the planet's mass to be shifted immediately into hyperspace. As a result, Alderaan exploded into a fiery ball fo eye-smiting light almost instantaneously, and a planar ring of energy-reflux - the "shadow" of a hyperspatial ripple - spread rapidly outward."


And there you have it all put into context. The Death Star superlaser shifts most of the planet's mass into hyperspace, and the planar rings are a "reflux" of that process. So much for the weapon being DET, at least as far as the EU is concerned. Thus if anything went haywire, the reactor goes BOOM and the energy release of several main sequence stars would destroy the station.
-Mike

Mike DiCenso wrote:

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:You know Star Wars: Death Star the novel? And how trekkies like to cite it of proof of their chain reaction theory? Well, guess what? The Death Star novel confirms that the Death Star has the power output of the weekly output of several main sequence stars.

I don't have the exact quote with me, but it's something like one of the main characters talking about firing the superlaser, and how, if anything misfired, the hypermatter reactor with the weekly power output of several main sequence stars would mean that he wouldn't live long enough to know about the misfire.

That one was debunked years ago, SWST. Simply speaking here are the quotes:

"If it didn't work - well, the hypermatter reactor was capable of generating an energy burst equivalent to the total weekly output of several main-sequence stars; if anything went wonky, it wasn't likely he'd be around long enough to notice."


This can go both ways, depending on how you want to interpret it. However...

"It took no more than an instant. Tenn knew that the beam's total destructive power was much bigger than matter-energy conversion limited to realspace. At full charge, the hyper-matter reactor provided a superluminal "boost" that caused much of the planet's mass to be shifted immediately into hyperspace. As a result, Alderaan exploded into a fiery ball fo eye-smiting light almost instantaneously, and a planar ring of energy-reflux - the "shadow" of a hyperspatial ripple - spread rapidly outward."


And there you have it all put into context. The Death Star superlaser shifts most of the planet's mass into hyperspace, and the planar rings are a "reflux" of that process. So much for the weapon being DET, at least as far as the EU is concerned. Thus if anything went haywire, the reactor goes BOOM and the energy release of several main sequence stars would destroy the station.
-Mike

"the hypermatter reactor provided a superlumial "boost" that..." - see? The point is not if the hypermatter reactor gets its energy from mass-energy conversion or some other exotic method; the book implies the other, but that it has that energy. Hypermatter reactors canonically are extremely powerful, as the Death Star's hypermatter reactor canonically has the power output of the weekly power output of several main sequence stars. Therefore, hypermatter reactors are indeed that powerful; although others are on a smaller scale, and how it gets that energy is irrelevant to the vs debate. It could be through matter-energy conversion (disproven), tachyonic particles (vaguely stated) and/or some hyper-stuff (vaguely stated), but it does get that much energy, and that's what matters for the vs. debate.

StarWarsStarTrek, please quote the complete sentence:

At full charge, the hyper-matter reactor provided a superluminal "boost" that caused much of the planet's mass to be shifted immediately into hyperspace.

That's not DET, and the total output needed to destroy a planet may be less the numbers most Warsies use.
The planet is still destroyed though, so I really don't think it's such a problem for the vs debate, I don't think Trek has anything that can stop this...
They may, after they find it, damage it enough to prevent the Superlaser use, but it still will have destroyed one or two planets before this happens...

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:

Mike DiCenso wrote:

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:You know Star Wars: Death Star the novel? And how trekkies like to cite it of proof of their chain reaction theory? Well, guess what? The Death Star novel confirms that the Death Star has the power output of the weekly output of several main sequence stars.

I don't have the exact quote with me, but it's something like one of the main characters talking about firing the superlaser, and how, if anything misfired, the hypermatter reactor with the weekly power output of several main sequence stars would mean that he wouldn't live long enough to know about the misfire.

That one was debunked years ago, SWST. Simply speaking here are the quotes:

"If it didn't work - well, the hypermatter reactor was capable of generating an energy burst equivalent to the total weekly output of several main-sequence stars; if anything went wonky, it wasn't likely he'd be around long enough to notice."


This can go both ways, depending on how you want to interpret it. However...

"It took no more than an instant. Tenn knew that the beam's total destructive power was much bigger than matter-energy conversion limited to realspace. At full charge, the hyper-matter reactor provided a superluminal "boost" that caused much of the planet's mass to be shifted immediately into hyperspace. As a result, Alderaan exploded into a fiery ball fo eye-smiting light almost instantaneously, and a planar ring of energy-reflux - the "shadow" of a hyperspatial ripple - spread rapidly outward."


And there you have it all put into context. The Death Star superlaser shifts most of the planet's mass into hyperspace, and the planar rings are a "reflux" of that process. So much for the weapon being DET, at least as far as the EU is concerned. Thus if anything went haywire, the reactor goes BOOM and the energy release of several main sequence stars would destroy the station.
-Mike

"the hypermatter reactor provided a superlumial "boost" that..." - see? The point is not if the hypermatter reactor gets its energy from mass-energy conversion or some other exotic method; the book implies the other, but that it has that energy. Hypermatter reactors canonically are extremely powerful, as the Death Star's hypermatter reactor canonically has the power output of the weekly power output of several main sequence stars. Therefore, hypermatter reactors are indeed that powerful; although others are on a smaller scale, and how it gets that energy is irrelevant to the vs debate. It could be through matter-energy conversion (disproven), tachyonic particles (vaguely stated) and/or some hyper-stuff (vaguely stated), but it does get that much energy, and that's what matters for the vs. debate.

Um, no again. Praeothimin has already pointed out the huge flaw your statement. I'll go on and provide more from the novel that continually disputes the superlaser as DET:


"Tenn looked at the images from the targeting cam. He still had his hand on the firing lever. He released it and stared, watching as the very air on the prison world caught fire in a runaway planetary holocaust. Seismographic sensors showed that massive groundquakes had begun, rumbling down into the bowels of the planet. Giant waves in the ocean, generated by the shifting of tectonic plates, rushed for the shores of the big continent. Volcanoes spewed lava. Clouds of steam and volcanic ash began to rapidly obscure the surface from view—but not fast enough.
He had just killed everything on the planet Despayre. If all life wasn't dead already, it would be soon.
The CO moved to look over his shoulder. He didn't congratulate Tenn on the shot; he just stood there.
"Stang," Tenn said.
The CO nodded. "Yeah."


COMMAND CENTER, OVERBRIDGE, DEATH STAR

Motti said, "Engineering says the capacitors will be recharged in an hour and thirteen minutes."
Tarkin watched the projection as the effects of the beam manifested on the planet. By the time the second pulse was ready for discharge, there wouldn't be anything alive on the world below them to care. The chain reaction was massive. And at only one-third of the power that would be available when it was fully operational."

At one-third power, a beam that allegedly can max out at 1e38 J would still be enough to shatter Despayre into pieces on the first shot, never mind a second or third. Instead we see an increasing level of weirdness as the beam is increased in power. Again, if the reactor could generate 1e38 J of power, and assuming the superlaser could then actually channel that power and direct it towards a planet, then what we see here in the Death Star EU novel would not be happening.
-Mike

Praeothmin wrote:No, just put a link to that thread and tell our friend to continue this discussion there... :)

"Star Wars: Death Star" and the destruction of Alderaan

Mike DiCenso wrote: Um, no again. Praeothimin has already pointed out the huge flaw your statement. I'll go on and provide more from the novel that continually disputes the superlaser as DET:


"Tenn looked at the images from the targeting cam. He still had his hand on the firing lever. He released it and stared, watching as the very air on the prison world caught fire in a runaway planetary holocaust. Seismographic sensors showed that massive groundquakes had begun, rumbling down into the bowels of the planet. Giant waves in the ocean, generated by the shifting of tectonic plates, rushed for the shores of the big continent. Volcanoes spewed lava. Clouds of steam and volcanic ash began to rapidly obscure the surface from view—but not fast enough.
He had just killed everything on the planet Despayre. If all life wasn't dead already, it would be soon.
The CO moved to look over his shoulder. He didn't congratulate Tenn on the shot; he just stood there.
"Stang," Tenn said.
The CO nodded. "Yeah."


COMMAND CENTER, OVERBRIDGE, DEATH STAR

Motti said, "Engineering says the capacitors will be recharged in an hour and thirteen minutes."
Tarkin watched the projection as the effects of the beam manifested on the planet. By the time the second pulse was ready for discharge, there wouldn't be anything alive on the world below them to care. The chain reaction was massive. And at only one-third of the power that would be available when it was fully operational."

At one-third power, a beam that allegedly can max out at 1e38 J would still be enough to shatter Despayre into pieces on the first shot, never mind a second or third. Instead we see an increasing level of weirdness as the beam is increased in power. Again, if the reactor could generate 1e38 J of power, and assuming the superlaser could then actually channel that power and direct it towards a planet, then what we see here in the Death Star EU novel would not be happening.
-Mike

Red herring. This thread is about the power generation of the Death Star (which is arguably more important for the vs debate), not the nature of the superlaser.

The Dude wrote:I bet you this thread won't get past noon without "EU is a separate universe."

And from there turns into yet another canon debate.

There is no canon-debate, only EU-fanwanking. The officials have given their word, and the EU-Completists have given their pathological denial, backed by twisting cherry-picked ambiguous snippets to interpret the meaning they want against all logic.

In order for the EU to be canon, there would have to be some committee authorized by Lucas to approve it as canon, and this committee would have to have to read everything and approve it as canon before publishing it; they can't just give it a big rubber-stamp without reading it, and approve it as canon.
And guess what? They DON'T! :D

And since no such committee exists, then the EU can't be canon: Q.E.D.

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:

Mike DiCenso wrote: Red herring. This thread is about the power generation of the Death Star (which is arguably more important for the vs debate), not the nature of the superlaser.

You really can't discuss one, without discussing the other.

Since we've already settled that SW power-generation is from fusion, not from hyperwank, then the DS would be limited to the amount of hydrogen that it carried. Even if it could fuse the hydrogen at 100% efficiency and DET it, they still couldn't possibly carry enough to blow up a planet of 7E+28, let alone this totally wanked-up figure of 38.

As I've stated prior, there's more than enough geothermal energy in the planet to blow it up, if you just reduced the distance between the planet's core and outer space somehow: for example with the same process used for the DS's hyperdrive.
This would also explain how the planet exploded at .05C, despite that this would require enough energy to vapourize the planet, and there woudn't be a solid fragment left; it would be blasted clean out of the solar-system, totally vapourized.
However this didn't happen; when Han's ship ran into the pieces of Alderaan, this clearly shows that it wasn't more than E+29, tops-- but still, the DS couldn't possibly carry this much hydrogen.

So it's really hyperspace-compression based, or nothing; a "chain-reaction" wepon doesn't even make sense, since Mass-energy is an entropic process, and this would consume more energy than it produced.

"It took no more than an instant. Tenn knew that the beam's total destructive power was much bigger than matter-energy conversion limited to realspace. At full charge, the hyper-matter reactor provided a superluminal "boost" that caused much of the planet's mass to be shifted immediately into hyperspace. As a result, Alderaan exploded into a fiery ball fo eye-smiting light almost instantaneously, and a planar ring of energy-reflux - the "shadow" of a hyperspatial ripple - spread rapidly outward."

Shifting the planet's mass into hyperspace alone wouldn't do it, since there would be the energy-differential still. When a ship moves from one place to another, that's pretty much a zero-sum difference; but moving a planet apart like that requires energy, you can't cheat the laws of physics (contrary to the junk-science in this novel).
Enter Mr. Geothermal Energy, whereby most of the planet is hot liquid mag-MA (as Dr. Evil calls it), and compared to which outer space is a much colder zero degrees Kelvin.
If you reduced the distance between that mag-MA and outer space, the energy would transfer through the fact that heat always flows outward from hotter to colder.
Normally this doesn't happen due to insulating distance, but the hyperspace-conduit would act as a "catalyst" for that-- and the planet would explode of its own heat.
This could shift a mere 11J/g, and the planet has a lot more than that.

UniveralNetguru wrote:

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:

Mike DiCenso wrote: Red herring. This thread is about the power generation of the Death Star (which is arguably more important for the vs debate), not the nature of the superlaser.

You really can't discuss one, without discussing the other.

Since we've already settled that SW power-generation is from fusion, not from hyperwank, then the DS would be limited to the amount of hydrogen that it carried. Even if it could fuse the hydrogen at 100% efficiency and DET it, they still couldn't possibly carry enough to blow up a planet of 7E+28, let alone this totally wanked-up figure of 38.

As I've stated prior, there's more than enough geothermal energy in the planet to blow it up, if you just reduced the distance between the planet's core and outer space somehow: for example with the same process used for the DS's hyperdrive.
This would also explain how the planet exploded at .05C, despite that this would require enough energy to vapourize the planet, and there woudn't be a solid fragment left; it would be blasted clean out of the solar-system, totally vapourized.
However this didn't happen; when Han's ship ran into the pieces of Alderaan, this clearly shows that it wasn't more than E+29, tops-- but still, the DS couldn't possibly carry this much hydrogen.

So it's really hyperspace-compression based, or nothing; a "chain-reaction" wepon doesn't even make sense, since Mass-energy is an entropic process, and this would consume more energy than it produced.

"It took no more than an instant. Tenn knew that the beam's total destructive power was much bigger than matter-energy conversion limited to realspace. At full charge, the hyper-matter reactor provided a superluminal "boost" that caused much of the planet's mass to be shifted immediately into hyperspace. As a result, Alderaan exploded into a fiery ball fo eye-smiting light almost instantaneously, and a planar ring of energy-reflux - the "shadow" of a hyperspatial ripple - spread rapidly outward."

Shifting the planet's mass into hyperspace alone wouldn't do it, since there would be the energy-differential still. When a ship moves from one place to another, that's pretty much a zero-sum difference; but moving a planet apart like that requires energy, you can't cheat the laws of physics (contrary to the junk-science in this novel).
Enter Mr. Geothermal Energy, whereby most of the planet is hot liquid mag-MA (as Dr. Evil calls it), and compared to which outer space is a much colder zero degrees Kelvin.
If you reduced the distance between that mag-MA and outer space, the energy would transfer through the fact that heat always flows outward from hotter to colder.
Normally this doesn't happen due to insulating distance, but the hyperspace-conduit would act as a "catalyst" for that-- and the planet would explode of its own heat.
This could shift a mere 11J/g, and the planet has a lot more than that.

My claim: The Death Star's hypermatter reactor is canonically equalivalent to the weekly output of several main sequence stars.

Your claim: But it isn't hypermatter, "we've already settled" that it's from fusion. Oh, and the superlaser was from a chain reaction. And you know what, in order to prove it, I'll cite a quote from a book about it moving mass into hyperspace. Of course, the same quote also mentions hypermatter, and the same book mentions it being equal to the weekly output of several main sequence stars, but cherry picking and blatant hypocrisy is the trekkie way!

In seriousness, learn to read:

"At full charge, the hyper-matter reactor provided a superluminal "boost" that caused much of the planet's mass to be shifted immediately into hyperspace."

In the same novel:

"If it didn't work - well, the hypermatter reactor was capable of generating an energy burst equivalent to the total weekly output of several main-sequence stars; if anything went wonky, it wasn't likely he'd be around long enough to notice."

Hmmm...not only does the same book confirm my point, the same quote that you used contradicts your claim. Epic pwnage?

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: My claim: The Death Star's hypermatter reactor is canonically equalivalent to the weekly output of several main sequence stars.

Then I shall wait with great interest as you produce G-canon that supports hypermatter, since the novelization implies it was fusion.

Your claim: But it isn't hypermatter, "we've already settled" that it's from fusion. Oh, and the superlaser was from a chain reaction.

I didn't say it was a chain-reaction, I said it was conversion-- specifically, thermal energy to kinetic energy, i.e. basic combustion.

And you know what, in order to prove it, I'll cite a quote from a book

AGAIN: Books aren't canon, just EU-wanking. I can cite things from books that claim people in the SW galaxy can travel to other galaxies on a regular basis, but that's hardly supported by the G-canon.

about it moving mass into hyperspace. Of course, the same quote also mentions hypermatter, and the same book mentions it being equal to the weekly output of several main sequence stars, but cherry picking and blatant hypocrisy is the trekkie way!

No, it's the Warsie-way; you believe in Force, we prefer LOGIC.
Guess which is better when it comes to being right?

In seriousness, learn to read:

Ok, you help me: what does the following mean?

LUCAS: I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."
- George Lucas, Flannelled One, Aug. 2005 - "New Hopes" interview in Starlog #337
Leland Chee, 2006 at StarWars.Com:
"The only relevant official continuities are the current versions of the films alone, and the combined current version of the films along with whatever else we've got in the Holocron. You're never going to know what George's view of the universe beyond the films at any given time because it is constantly evolving. It remains elastic until it gets committed to film or another official source. Even then, we know there's always room for change.
[...] Anything not in the current version of the films is irrelevant to Film only continuity."

- Sue Rostoni, Lucas Licensing (LLP Managing Editor), Sept. 2005 - StarWars.com forum post:

"Within the issue of Starlog magazine with the War of the Worlds cover is an interview article with George Lucas. He stated something which he had said before, which is that he doesn't follow the SW EU, he doesn't read the books or comics. He also said that when they started doing all this (which is allowing other storytellers to tell their own SW tales), he had decreed that the Star Wars Universe would be split into two just like Star Trek (I don't know nuts about Star Trek, so don't ask me about that), one would be his own universe (the six episode movie saga), the other would be a whole other universe (the Expanded Universe). He continued to say that the EU tries as much as possible to tie in to his own universe, but sometimes they move into a whole other line of their own.”

Now, I read that to mean that the movies and the EU novels are different universes, but I only know what I READ-- I don't have oracular powers like Wong, to have Leland Chee speak through me, while George Lucas speaks through him... it seems Wong believes tha tChee is Lucas's mssenger to him, like the prophet Mohammed is Allah's messenger to Al Queda-- and thus the cult-mentality of Wong and SDN and SBC.
Teach us, oh cult leader; we infidels cannot hear the truth as you!

Hmmm...not only does the same book confirm my point, the same quote that you used contradicts your claim. Epic pwnage?

More like "novel defeat" :D