Rebuttal to darkstar's website

[2046]

Basically, you bringing up EU junk would be like me bringing up JJ-Trek and trying to apply it to Roddenberry-Trek. In other words, it's just silly.

I have to disagree with this comparison somewhat. Where as it can be argued that Lucas is stating his proper story of Star Wars is seperate from the EU version, the AbrahamTrek and RoddenberryTrek are not quite so seperate. The Narada (along with Nero and the rest of the crew, Jellyfish, Spock-Prime, and USS Kelvin are all from what you call Roddenberry-Trek. They overlap, because elements from the original are in the new timeline/reality as an integral part of the story and are responsible for the Alt timeline's being created, again as an integral part of the storyline.

That being the case, we can now say that the Kelvin-type starship existed in the 2230's, the Romulans were able to build 8-10 km starships, ships are able to survive trips through artifical black holes, and red matter also exists in the Prime timeline in the 2380's.
-Mike

I know they intended to make an offshoot of the Prime continuity, but I believe they missed the mark of representing the GR Trek universe quite badly. Thus, I don't see that it is an offshoot.

Some other writings on the matter . . . I think we've discussed it here, too, but just in case:

http://www.st-v-sw.net/weblog/2009/05/s ... rs_10.html
http://www.st-v-sw.net/weblog/2009/06/t ... -done.html
http://www.st-v-sw.net/weblog/2009/05/s ... ronia.html

[StarWarsStarTrek]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UH275jwQBXY

For example, at 1:04, the explosions are about on par with modern day bunker busters or maybe tactical nukes, aka sub kiloton.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN5cR_1Y ... re=related

2:32. Completely sub kiloton explosions, not even tactical nuke level. Can't destroy a skyscraper. Oh!

2:38. ZOMG the photon torpedos are making mushroom clouds. Except that they're nowhere near 100 megatons, and, although it can be hard to tell due to the perspective, they're sub megaton.

2:53. The fireball, aka the bright center, can be scaled with relation to the roads and what appears to be a building, maybe a school or parking lot. It's less than 500 meters in diameter. Sub megaton. Oh.

The fact that it caused 8 million and maybe some more casualties rules out 100 megaton or more photon torpedo blasts, because such AM explosions in such high quantities against Earth would quite easily cause hundreds of millions of casualties and start a nuclear winter. They didn't. They destroyed a large portion of the San Fransico Bay area. They didn't do anywhere near this:



The planet's surface in the base delta zero has been turned to molten slag. Dust in the level of the K-T extinction event is scene. Explosions hundreds of kms wide based on rough scaling are scene, with a glimpse of a several hundred km wide explosion.

Compare that to the Breen assault, which still left structures standing.

Turning the planet to molten slag, continent covering dust, explosions hundreds of kms wide vs devastating a city and its surrounding area, no nuclear winter and explosions hundreds of meters wide.

Both examples had the full intention of causing maximum harm, and both examples had plenty of time to do so. Given the rather high rate of fire of photon torpedo, the Breens would have been able to launch hundreds of photon torpedos.

Another point are the sub kiloton weapons. To be fair, they probably aren't photon torpedos, but instead might be fighter weapons. However, these same weapons are effective against Federation starships, which doesn't such much positive about Federation ship durability.

Also, a Star Wars planetary shield could have stopped the invasion dead in its tracks, figuratively. The assault fleet would not have gotten past the planetary shield. Hyperdrive would have lessened the effect, because reinforcements could be rallied to stop the invasion quite quickly.

If the photon torpedos really were >100 megatons, the attack would have caused a complete nuclear winter on Earth. It didn't. It barely destroyed a large portion of the San Fransico bay area. The base delta zero, though, turned a planet's surface into molten slag and caused continent covering dust clouds. That's several orders of mangnitude more devastating than the breen attack on Earth.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

I have no idea who put that compilation together in youtube but a lot of it is not trek, in fact i recognise some of the scenes you point to as coming from independence day and BSG i think so i suggest you check your material.

2:32. Completely sub kiloton explosions, not even tactical nuke level. Can't destroy a skyscraper. Oh!

Not trek material, it is from a disaster movie about asteroids but i cannot remember what one.

2:38. ZOMG the photon torpedoes are making mushroom clouds. Except that they're nowhere near 100 megatons, and, although it can be hard to tell due to the perspective, they're sub megaton.

AGAIN not trek material, BSG or some such i think.

2:53. The fireball, aka the bright center, can be scaled with relation to the roads and what appears to be a building, maybe a school or parking lot. It's less than 500 meters in diameter. Sub megaton. Oh.

I think this one if from stargate when Daniel in a vision of the future blasts the shit out of Moscow with orbital defence system.


GOOD JOB LOL.

[Trinoya]

SWST, really? You post yet more fan made material?

I'm gonna make this as clear as possible:

With the exception of the aftermath at starfleet academy we see nothing of the Breen attack. All we know is that the defenses destroyed the attackers quickly. We did not see number of ships, any orbital strikes, any strikes within atmosphere, nothing. We NEVER see this attack.


Please, do yourself a favor and save whatever little reputation you have left and recognize your error.

[watchdog]

The planet's surface in the base delta zero has been turned to molten slag. Dust in the level of the K-T extinction event is scene. Explosions hundreds of kms wide based on rough scaling are scene, with a glimpse of a several hundred km wide explosion.

Unless I miss my guess, this is just a piece of fan-made art, not official.
If you want to see actual official images of an Imperial planetary bombardment, check this thread;
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... ?f=8&t=663
They are from comic books, but they are still far more official than fanwankery based off of Mike Wongs wet dreams.
And just to be snarky, the only place I've ever seen an official planetary bombardment that looked anything like your picture was in TDiC;

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

The planet's surface in the base delta zero has been turned to molten slag. Dust in the level of the K-T extinction event is scene. Explosions hundreds of kms wide based on rough scaling are scene, with a glimpse of a several hundred km wide explosion.

Unless I miss my guess, this is just a piece of fan-made art, not official.
If you want to see actual official images of an Imperial planetary bombardment, check this thread;
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... ?f=8&t=663
They are from comic books, but they are still far more official than fanwankery based off of Mike Wongs wet dreams.
And just to be snarky, the only place I've ever seen an official planetary bombardment that looked anything like your picture was in TDiC;

Weel from what i can see the ST ships are in higher orbit and the blast waves are considerably larger.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Time for splosion porn I see.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

You know what? I checked, and yes, a lot of that video was fanmade. I do remember that at least parts of the Breen attack on Earth were seen; I forgot which, but I admit that some of the videos are fanmade. To be fair to me, I couldn't really have known that. But I apologize.

However, you guys really need to stop with your gangbanging of me and claiming that you've told me that multiple times. That's bullshit. You just started specifying that now. Before, many of you actually fell for it like I did, and tried to rationalize it by claiming for it to be a planetary shield stopping it. There was one instance earlier when somebody claimed that it was fanmade, but made no attempt to back it up, so don't go on with your "zomg we told you so many times that it's fanmade" lies.

That being said, the event still implies much about the yields of photon torpedos. According to Memory Alpha, the attack was on the San Fransico Bay Area...with a fleet. If the torpedos were 100 megaton level, they would have caused an Earth spanning nuclear winter with a full scale attack.

[Trinoya]

You know what? I checked, and yes, a lot of that video was fanmade. I do remember that at least parts of the Breen attack on Earth were seen; I forgot which, but I admit that some of the videos are fanmade. To be fair to me, I couldn't really have known that. But I apologize.

The only part of that that had anything to do with the Breen attack is the aftermath shot of San Fransisco.. whic I've already told you.

Nonetheless, thank you for admitting your mistake.

However, you guys really need to stop with your gangbanging of me and claiming that you've told me that multiple times. That's bullshit. You just started specifying that now.

Actually I told you here and even cited some of the footage for you.

http://starfleetjedi.net/forum/viewtopi ... 1&start=75

Before, many of you actually fell for it like I did, and tried to rationalize it by claiming for it to be a planetary shield stopping it.

I do not believe anyone here fell for it.. I believe a few people addressed the point by talking about planetary shields.

There was one instance earlier when somebody claimed that it was fanmade, but made no attempt to back it up, so don't go on with your "zomg we told you so many times that it's fanmade" lies.

I saw numerous posts informing you it was fan made, if you failed to read them that is on you.

That being said, the event still implies much about the yields of photon torpedos. According to Memory Alpha, the attack was on the San Fransico Bay Area...with a fleet. If the torpedos were 100 megaton level, they would have caused an Earth spanning nuclear winter with a full scale attack.

And without fleet numbers, information on what defenses were up at the time, how many torpedoes (if any) hit, the duration of the attack, what manner of attack it was (suicide, long range, close range, hit and run, etc), and so on... we can only take some minor speculation. A brief attack on earth killed 8 million people before the bulk of the attackers were destroyed.

What we DO know is that some of the apparent damage caused could be from any number of weapons, and that the Breen forces most likely were trying to inflict as much damage as possible on what should be one of the most well defended planets in the galaxy. Since we've seen more energetic planetary bombardments it's more safe to presume that much of the damage is bleed through damage that made it past the defenses.

[Lucky]

The planet's surface in the base delta zero has been turned to molten slag. Dust in the level of the K-T extinction event is scene. Explosions hundreds of kms wide based on rough scaling are scene, with a glimpse of a several hundred km wide explosion.

Unless I miss my guess, this is just a piece of fan-made art, not official.
If you want to see actual official images of an Imperial planetary bombardment, check this thread;
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... ?f=8&t=663
They are from comic books, but they are still far more official than fanwankery based off of Mike Wongs wet dreams.
And just to be snarky, the only place I've ever seen an official planetary bombardment that looked anything like your picture was in TDiC;

Actual I believe that is official Star Wars art, but it is a stand alone peace, and therefore has no context. It's a poster or a wallpaper for your computer.

[Nowhereman10]

A brief attack on earth killed 8 million people before the bulk of the attackers were destroyed.

Where's this 8 million number come from? Not from the episode, as no one says anything about the number people killed.

[Trinoya]

That part of my post is in error and was part of an entirely differnt thought that did not make it through the initial revision. To be fair it was difficult to revise using my iPhone. The original point I was going to make was listing things in the videos that even contradicted his assumptions. I failed to proof read the section before posting it.

However, thanks for the catch ^_^

[2046]

you guys really need to stop with your gangbanging of me

Please use the more common term in this context, "dogpiling". The term you used has other connotations that almost made me spew my beverage with hilarious (and disturbing) mental images.

[Mith]

you guys really need to stop with your gangbanging of me

Please use the more common term in this context, "dogpiling". The term you used has other connotations that almost made me spew my beverage with hilarious (and disturbing) mental images.

Also, we have standards. Our sex lives aren't that bad.