Starfleet Jedi

Ok, so how about a Trekkie (no offense, simply a term) try and answer these challenges. If 2 of these can be proven, then I'll concede.

1. A blatant, unjustifiable contradiction by G canon OR 3 or more by T/C canon of the ICS.
2. An explanation as to how the Federation matches or even comes close to matching Star War's industrial and numerical advantage.
3. An explanation as to how the Federation's warp drive can possibly be matched to the far faster Star Wars hyperdrive.
4. A plan as to how the Federation could possibly mount any successful invasion of the Star Wars galaxy in under 100 years.
5. An explanation as to how the Federation counters the sun crusher, centerpoint station or even the 2 death stars.

1.) The novel "The Hutt Gambit" mentions Base Delta Zero firepower inconsistent with the ICS. It mentions that there would be burning buildings, corpses remaining from the bombardment, and that they'd have to send down shuttles and TIE Fighters to do mop-up work. "Star Wars: The New Essential Guide To Weapons and Technology" (Published in '04), gives the turbolaser an optimal range of 15 km, and a maximum range of 100 km. For power generation levels, look no further than the Executor crashing into the Death Star and exploding in Return of the Jedi. If it did put out the amount of energy Saxton claimed, that explosion would not only have been MUCH bigger, but Endor would have suffered terrible, terrible damage. Also, the Death Star novel states that the superlaser was a chain-reaction weapon.

2.) SW has the advantage here.

3.) Normally, warp drive is slower, unless we decide to count ST: V as canon, in which the Enterprise zooms into the galactic core from Earth's region of space in less than an hour.

4.) The Federation might detect conflict between Imperial and Rebel forces, and if they're already at war with the Empire, would leap to help the Rebels, who would provide them with a great ally.

5.) If by "counter", you mean "match the destructive effects", than trilithium missiles should do the trick, as they knock out fusion in a star, causing it to give off a subspace shockwave capable of destroying an entire star system. If by "counter", you mean "stop", for the Death Stars, they could just send a squad of Runabouts or Tac Fighters down the trench. Or they could modify a torpedo to find a small thermal exhaust port via exhaust, not unlike the torpedo used in Star Trek VI to find Chang's bird-of-prey. As for the others, red matter works perfectly well. In case you're wondering what red matter does, it forms black holes when it touches normal matter. A single drop is enough to turn an Earth-sized planet (in this case, Vulcan), into a black hole.

Hope that answers your questions.

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Ok, so how about a Trekkie (no offense, simply a term) try and answer these challenges. If 2 of these can be proven, then I'll concede.

Hello, SWST and welcome to our humble forum! You claim that you are willing to concede the issues, if somone can provide proof. The question in turn I have to wonder is what do you actually consider proof, and if provided, will you really accept it.

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: 3. An explanation as to how the Federation's warp drive can possibly be matched to the far faster Star Wars hyperdrive.

The real question is actually how fast is SW hyperdrive. We certainly know that the EU is all over the place place on how fast ships can go, and often times it does not match up with what we see and hear of in the movies and their novelizations. For example, in "The Heir to the Empire" by Timothy Zahn we have this:

"It took the Chimaera nearly five days at its point four cruising speed to cover the three hundred fifty light-years between Myrkr and Wayland."

[ "Heir to the Empire", p. 39 ]

The cruising speed of an ISD is 0.4, which is equivalent to less than 2.9 light-years per hour, or 350 x 365 = 127,750 light days/5 days travel time = 25,550c. For comparison, in VOY's "The 37s", Paris says that warp 9.9 is 4 billion miles a second, or 21,450c. Voyager's twice stated ("Caretaker", "Relativity") top cruising speed is 9.975.

Furthermore, planets in the SW movies do not appear to be where the reference and C-canon EU novels say they're ought to be at. Take a look at the movie canon maps here, and compare them to the Vector Prime map images provided by WILGA in this thread here. Tatoonie and Ryloth are shown very close to each other in the Outer Rim (located in the lower right of the map near the Wild Space region border). At the time this map was made, Geonosis was not know to exist and within just a few light years of each other. The map on Padme's ship shows the area where Tatooine and Geonosis are located are much closer in than the Vector Prime map shows.
-Mike

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Ok, so how about a Trekkie (no offense, simply a term) try and answer these challenges. If 2 of these can be proven, then I'll concede.

I'm a Rifter, and I take offense!

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: 1. A blatant, unjustifiable contradiction by G canon OR 3 or more by T/C canon of the ICS.

First we must explain what the Incredible Cross Sections(ICS) books are claiming to show. The ICS claims to depict the ships and vehicles as seen in the movies. Because they claim to depict the ships and vehicles as seen in the movies it does not matter if other versions of the vehicles and ships are said to exist in the EU/C-canon. The ICS are saying this is what is in the movies.

The ICS claims the Acclamator class as seen in the movies has large quad turbolasers, but in G and T canon there are no quad turbolasers on any of the Acclamators. The ICS does not say the Quads are retractable, and the pictures imply the quads can't be retracted.

The people in Star Wars are shown to use copper wires to carry power in their their ships, and welding their ships while only wearing a mask as protection putting an upper limit on a lot of things. This would mean that either the humans, and other critters are superpowered beings to the point hand blasters should be useless, or the armor on Star wars ships can be melted with blow torches humans can handle safely.

In T-canon we see Acclamators being blow out of the sky by what is possible sub nuclear levels of fire power over Ryloth.

Then on Ryloth we see both sides using sub-nuclear fire power even though it would have made sense just to dial it up.

In the second I believe battle of Geonosis a tiny theater shield is turned on, but instead of just blasting the area around the shield with the gigatons they send in troops on foot. Really, you have ships in orbit, and fighter capable of nuking something with their own guns, and you send in troops to set explosive charges?

Then there is down fall of a droid where they use asteroids as cover.

There you go two. Either people in Star wars are to stupid to use their gear properly, or they don't have what the ICS says they do. The only numbers that might be right are the ship's effective ranges, but those actually look low.

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: 2. An explanation as to how the Federation matches or even comes close to matching Star War's industrial and numerical advantage.

What evidence do you have Star Wars would have an industrial and numerical advantage.

Star Wars is the setting where 3,000,000 troops is considered an ungodly large army, and has problems as I recall properly manning their ships to the point of using children.

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: 3. An explanation as to how the Federation's warp drive can possibly be matched to the far faster Star Wars hyperdrive.

Given the fastest hyperdrive can be in practice at slower then a sub-light drive. It is only with very well maintained hyper-lanes that high speeds can be obtained.

The Federation has other options for FTL then just warp. With minor modifications Voyager would have been able to use a Q-Slipstream drive that as I recall is on par with a Star Wars Hyperdrive.

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: 4. A plan as to how the Federation could possibly mount any successful invasion of the Star Wars galaxy in under 100 years.

Why would the federation do this? That's not really the Federation's style.

Given the Federation would have no trouble coming up with 3,000,000+ troops, and shouldn't have trouble coming up with 26,000+ combat ready ships in under 100 Earth years. They already have all the gear they would need besides helmets, but then Star Wars helmets seem to just be for decoration.

The UFP would just need to gain control of the hyper-lains, and then soon after the UFP wins everyone realizes they are living better then in the old republic/CIS/Empire/what ever without the flaws, and everyone is happy.

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: 5. An explanation as to how the Federation counters the sun crusher, centerpoint station or even the 2 death stars.

Phaser type weapons that are canon in Star Wars tend to ignore shields and punch through armor like my finger through wet tissue paper. It's not unlikely the UFP could at least alter their weapons to exploit these weaknesses.

Literally a couple of Gravimetric torpedos should be more then enough to take out a Death Star. Star Wars has little to no defense against anything that makes black holes.

The Sun crusher isn't really an issue. The only weapons the Sun Crusher has are technobabble torpedos, and fighter scale blasters. The thing is just a fighter with a special torpedo launcher. The torpedos are technobabble as I understand it making them of little use against ships. At worst they wait until the pilot has to come out. Resonance torpedo type weapons are a dime a dozen in Star Trek.

Someone will have to explain what the big deal is with centerpoint station. It sounds neat and all, but whats the big deal from a military point of view?

An interesting post, though I am curious to see if you will actually concede anything or if you are another fanboy not interested in actual debate.

1. A blatant, unjustifiable contradiction by G canon OR 3 or more by T/C canon of the ICS.

Well, I'm curious by what you deem as justifiable but.. nonetheless.

In the Thrawn Trilogy we have a Star Destroyer needing to use a specially designed cooling station to protect it from a stars energy output.

In TESB: The supposedly powerful weapons on the fighters that the rebel alliance were deemed not powerful enough to attack the AT-ATs, nor were their weapons on their Speeders. The X-Wings, which were on sight, are supposed to be capable of engaging other fighter craft and capital ships... but if the ICS were to be counted as real, even ICS figures mean that fighters would be useless in nearly every situation.. but these same fighters would CURB STOMP the approaching AT-ATs with those yields.

Furthermore: No ISD would have ANY issue entering an asteroid field (though the falcon might, there by not invalidating C3PO)... yet it was clearly devastating enough to severely damage and possibly destroy an ISD.

The Zilo Beast would have easily fallen pray to any number of Multi-Kiloton weapons, much less Gigaton Weapons.

A small armada of ships is able to protect Kamino from a fleet that would need to get one single shot past them. The planet has no planetary shield mentioned and has been infiltrated already by a large force of assault ships who, if they had any turbolasers on board, should have vaporised the colony. Furthermore, Anakin wouldn't have left his fighter if it had kiloton level firepower and would have used it to nuetralize the otherwise nonthreatening attack squids...

AoTC: THere are no mushroom cloud like events on the surface of Geonosis... nor any noticeable damage from the war the second time they go back, which was a planetary level invasion. Large dirt bunkers are present and would be perfect targets for orbital bombardment. A massive 'defensive wall' is considered a crediable deterent to attack to have even been built in the first place.

ROTS: A major battle would have been entirely pointless to fight on Kashykk had either side dropped a single gigaton onto the other.

Obi-Wan is able to escape the storm trooper attempt at killing him, even though it would have been effortless to fire one of those kiloton level shots down into the lake after him to be certain of his death.

The opening battle has no demonstrable massive kiloton effects, and it is clear the hull of the ship they were on was not built to handle such attacks as it broke apart.

The Clone Wars: Slave 1 crashes and does not create a multi-kiloton explosion in the distance...

I could think of more, but I think I've met your requirements..

Oh and pretty much EVERYTHING in the X-Wing Series or I-Jedi.

2. An explanation as to how the Federation matches or even comes close to matching Star War's industrial and numerical advantage.

The Federation can not in anyway match starwars level of industrial ability, but what it lacks in total capability it more than makes up for in logistics... IE: A ship like voyager was able to survive, and it's not a single outlier case... as a Nova class vessel and even an old klingon warship were able to do the same thing... Supply lines for the federation wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue.

3. An explanation as to how the Federation's warp drive can possibly be matched to the far faster Star Wars hyperdrive.

Imperial Hyperdrive is slowed down when routes are not properly mapped, same with the federation warp drive (all of voyager is an example of this). When a ship, however, in the federation side has a map of where it is going or the facilities on board to appropriately map it, they go much faster. Note: The Enterprise D would take 300 years to get back to the milky way from another Galaxy. Essentially Warp Drive is limited by not knowing where you are going, just like hyper drive.

I will say Hyper Drive appears to have a higher speed when you do know where you are going, but a much slower speed when you don't (at least so far as the EU is concerned)

4. A plan as to how the Federation could possibly mount any successful invasion of the Star Wars galaxy in under 100 years.

I hope you don't mind me taking a small liberty here in defining the scenario: Star Trek Milky Way and the Star Wars galaxy and time period are connected via wormhole on the edges of imperial and federation territory... just to establish some frame of reference. Now then.. onto the important stuff...

After the wormhole between the two times and galaxies opens up a federation armada guards the entrance on their side preventing effective imperial control and mapping. The empire has the same on their side preventing significant federation control or mapping. Both sides appear to be at a stalemate when suddenly news occurs of a single large and armored transport being raided and captured by local pirates on the SW side.

Eventually a group of hyperdrive capable starships come through complete with maps and prepare to launch a blitz of imperial territory. They call back to palpatine for orders only to discover that Courscant was recently attacked by a Cargo Ship that was able to turn invisible. Imperial leadership falls into disarray giving the federation sufficient time to secure control on the far side of the wormhole.

The Empire falls in 25-50 years as planet after planet joins the Alliance with their new federation Allies.

5. An explanation as to how the Federation counters the sun crusher, centerpoint station or even the 2 death stars.

A single Trilithium Bomb or planetbuster ship could destroy any of those at the right moment or time... A single microtorpedo equipped shuttle could take down the death star... But I'm gonna presume were talking about weapons that are on par with...

The federation has the capability to activate bombs that effect multiple solar systems, blow up suns, and even have the demonstrated AND REPEATED NOT AN OUTLIER AND OF COURSE EASILY DONE weapon of time travel... which people often throw out of these debates because "grr argh auto win super weapon." I would point out the federation doesn't choose to 'auto win' with time travel, but they DO use it to fuck over other super weapons and undo the damage they have done.

That said: The federation has the power to create entirely new habitable planets.. or wipe out all life on them and recreate it again.

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:Ok, so how about a Trekkie (no offense, simply a term) try and answer these challenges. If 2 of these can be proven, then I'll concede.

1. A blatant, unjustifiable contradiction by G canon OR 3 or more by T/C canon of the ICS.

As mentioned before, the yields demonstrated by both sides in the Battle of Geonosis are sub-nuclear. ROTS also shows the cannon of an AT-TE walker firing on Obi-Wan and the result is merely a small explosion, about as strong as a modern day real world tank shell, where the order was to kill him. Order 66 had been issued. They have no reason to hold back on the yields. And, of course, the aforementioned Downfall of a Droid in TCW. Those same shells or energy weapons that failed to kill Obi-Wan were blowing up Grievous's Munificents with ease, and those did not look to be anywhere close. There were also the aforementioned proton cannons blowing out large pieces of the hulls of Acclimators in the ivasion of Ryloth. Also, there's any number of instances in the Star Wars X-Wing series and the bombing of Yavin IV in Darksaber where turbolaser bolts from a Super Star Destroyer only level about an acre of forest or so.

2. An explanation as to how the Federation matches or even comes close to matching Star War's industrial and numerical advantage.

It doesn't. The Federation does not have the industrial capacity of the Empire, nor its ship numbers. Most estimates I've seen indicate that the Federation has about 8,000-12,000 starships, which fits pretty well given the fact that the Dominion at the end of the Dominion War had 30,000 ships. My guess is that the Romulans and Klingons each have fewer ships than the Federation but with their total fleets combined, the FKR Alliance was in the same ballpark as the Dominion in ship numbers.

3. An explanation as to how the Federation's warp drive can possibly be matched to the far faster Star Wars hyperdrive.

Again, it depends on if the region of space is mapped or not. If it's not mapped, the Federation can likely go faster since their long-range sensors can scan for signals light years away. As such, they can safely cover more ground, faster, than Star Wars starships. However, in mapped areas, I give the edge to Star Wars hyperdrive. This, of course, is not taking into account Quantum Slipstream or Transwarp Drive.

4. A plan as to how the Federation could possibly mount any successful invasion of the Star Wars galaxy in under 100 years.

Assuming a wormhole, I don't think that the Federation would launch a direct invasion of the Star Wars Galaxy. It's not their nature. If they were forced to, however, for some reason, say, they launched a counter-invasion, they could use a cloaked starship to deliver a Trilithium torpedo to Coruscant's sun. They decloak close to the sun, fire the torpedo, and warp out. The ships over Coruscant have mere seconds to escape once the reaction starts and the shockwave approaches Coruscant and tears it apart. And that's not including any other number of ways to take out Coruscant without destroying the planet, itself. With Coruscant, and the Imperial/Republic government, out of the way, the Federation would easily be able to fortify its side of the wormhole and make inroads to the Star Wars galaxy. And without Palpatine, I could see many planets either joining the Rebel Alliance or even the Federation.

5. An explanation as to how the Federation counters the sun crusher, centerpoint station or even the 2 death stars.

Centerpoint and the Death Star II should not be too difficult to counter. For "conventional" means of destroying them, use a series of Transphasic torpedoes to take out their shield generators and follow it up with a series of Tricobalt devices. Tricobalts are subspace weapons and if they generate any subspace shockwaves, they'll tear apart the stations.

The original Death Star can just be taken out by a Runabout or Attack Fighter with photon torpedoes. Their shields will last long enough to make the shot, and they can likely shoot from farther away as well.

The Sun Crusher is going to be interesting, but I think that Starfleet can take it out with minimal losses. Merely uses a series of jacketed streams of antimatter against it. Even with its armor, its armor still consists of matter. The protons and electrons that make up its armor's particles will still annihilate when they come into contact with anti-protons and positrons. Fire enough anti-protons and positrons into the Sun Crusher and it will eventually be destroyed.

Khas wrote:1.) The novel "The Hutt Gambit" mentions Base Delta Zero firepower inconsistent with the ICS. It mentions that there would be burning buildings, corpses remaining from the bombardment, and that they'd have to send down shuttles and TIE Fighters to do mop-up work.

Details please? Size of planet? Defenses? Time bombarded? Bombardment forces? Objectives?

"Star Wars: The New Essential Guide To Weapons and Technology" (Published in '04), gives the turbolaser an optimal range of 15 km, and a maximum range of 100 km.

Blatantly contradicted by higher G canon.

For power generation levels, look no further than the Executor crashing into the Death Star and exploding in Return of the Jedi. If it did put out the amount of energy Saxton claimed, that explosion would not only have been MUCH bigger, but Endor would have suffered terrible, terrible damage.

Safeguards, anyone? Sort of like how modern day nuclear reactors don't explode when hit.

Also, the Death Star novel states that the superlaser was a chain-reaction weapon.

I read Star Wars: Death Star, and don't remember such a quote.

2.) SW has the advantage here.

A HUGE advantage, which makes this an uterally one sided war. The Allies beat the Axis largely because they outproduced the Axis by at least a 2 to one margin; the United States alone outproduced all the Axis nations combined. In this war, Star Wars would outproduce Star Trek by literally millions to one.

You simply cannot beat an opponent who has a million to one industrial advantage over you in a conventional war unless if you're thousands of years ahead of them.

3.) Normally, warp drive is slower, unless we decide to count ST: V as canon, in which the Enterprise zooms into the galactic core from Earth's region of space in less than an hour.

Warp drive is normally FAR slower than hyperdrive, effectively crippling the Federation's strategic mobility.

4.) The Federation might detect conflict between Imperial and Rebel forces, and if they're already at war with the Empire, would leap to help the Rebels, who would provide them with a great ally.

But the Federation on its own could not possibly invade any established Star Wars faction.

5.) If by "counter", you mean "match the destructive effects", than trilithium missiles should do the trick, as they knock out fusion in a star, causing it to give off a subspace shockwave capable of destroying an entire star system. If by "counter", you mean "stop", for the Death Stars, they could just send a squad of Runabouts or Tac Fighters down the trench. Or they could modify a torpedo to find a small thermal exhaust port via exhaust, not unlike the torpedo used in Star Trek VI to find Chang's bird-of-prey. As for the others, red matter works perfectly well. In case you're wondering what red matter does, it forms black holes when it touches normal matter. A single drop is enough to turn an Earth-sized planet (in this case, Vulcan), into a black hole.

Except that centerpoint station and galaxy guns both can fire from across the galaxy, and the sun crusher was expected to take a full on hit from the death star.

Hope that answers your questions.

:)

Lucky wrote:I'm a Rifter, and I take offense!


First we must explain what the Incredible Cross Sections(ICS) books are claiming to show. The ICS claims to depict the ships and vehicles as seen in the movies. Because they claim to depict the ships and vehicles as seen in the movies it does not matter if other versions of the vehicles and ships are said to exist in the EU/C-canon. The ICS are saying this is what is in the movies.

The ICS claims the Acclamator class as seen in the movies has large quad turbolasers, but in G and T canon there are no quad turbolasers on any of the Acclamators. The ICS does not say the Quads are retractable, and the pictures imply the quads can't be retracted.

Since when is the ICS only referring to the Acclamators in the movies? That wasn't specified, and making a technicality out of its name doesn't work. The movie acclamators were early ones that were seeing combat for the first time. They clearly weren't equipped with turbolasers at the time.

The people in Star Wars are shown to use copper wires to carry power in their their ships, and welding their ships while only wearing a mask as protection putting an upper limit on a lot of things. This would mean that either the humans, and other critters are superpowered beings to the point hand blasters should be useless, or the armor on Star wars ships can be melted with blow torches humans can handle safely.

Where in the ICS does it say anything about durasteel strength? It doesn't, iirc.

In T-canon we see Acclamators being blow out of the sky by what is possible sub nuclear levels of fire power over Ryloth.

Details?

Then on Ryloth we see both sides using sub-nuclear fire power even though it would have made sense just to dial it up.

Details?

In the second I believe battle of Geonosis a tiny theater shield is turned on, but instead of just blasting the area around the shield with the gigatons they send in troops on foot. Really, you have ships in orbit, and fighter capable of nuking something with their own guns, and you send in troops to set explosive charges?

1. They were trying to rescue the Jedi
2. Didn't Mace Windu comment that he should have done that?
3. As you posted, there was a theater shield. Blasting the area around the shield would be blasting nothing other than terrain, because logically the droid army would be inside the shield.

Then there is down fall of a droid where they use asteroids as cover.

And modern infantry often times use bushes as "cover"; does that mean that a bullet can't go through a bunch of leaves?

There you go two. Either people in Star wars are to stupid to use their gear properly, or they don't have what the ICS says they do. The only numbers that might be right are the ship's effective ranges, but those actually look low.


What evidence do you have Star Wars would have an industrial and numerical advantage.

Maybe the fact that Star Wars consists of 12 million inhabited worlds, hyperdrive systems that allow for casual galactic trade, and the abililty to build the Death Star 2 to 60% completion in 6 months? Vs 1000 member worlds and warp drives too slow to allow for casual galactic trade.

Star Wars is the setting where 3,000,000 troops is considered an ungodly large army, and has problems as I recall properly manning their ships to the point of using children.

The 3 million clone trooper figure is clearly bullshit, because it simply isn't possible. Fighting a galactic war with 3 million troops is laughable.

Given the fastest hyperdrive can be in practice at slower then a sub-light drive. It is only with very well maintained hyper-lanes that high speeds can be obtained.

No, even without hyperlanes hyperdrive is still many orders of magnitude faster than warp drive, giving Star Wars a MASSIVE logistical and mobility advantage.

The Federation has other options for FTL then just warp. With minor modifications Voyager would have been able to use a Q-Slipstream drive that as I recall is on par with a Star Wars Hyperdrive.

Yeah, the Federation has these cool treknologies that would help them a lot if the mass produced them and actually used them...too bad that they never do.

Why would the federation do this? That's not really the Federation's style.

And even if it was, they couldn't.

Given the Federation would have no trouble coming up with 3,000,000+ troops, and shouldn't have trouble coming up with 26,000+ combat ready ships in under 100 Earth years.

That's making the false assumption that a Federation ship could even damage a star destroyer.

They already have all the gear they would need besides helmets, but then Star Wars helmets seem to just be for decoration.

False, as official/canon sources show that Star Wars helmets have exstensive HUD displays.

The UFP would just need to gain control of the hyper-lains, and then soon after the UFP wins everyone realizes they are living better then in the old republic/CIS/Empire/what ever without the flaws, and everyone is happy.

Except that the UFP's warp drive is too slow to ever get to some of the further away hyperlanes, wouldn't know how to find a hyperlane and wouldn't have the manpower or firepower to maintain control of them.

Also, you still haven't explained how the UFP INVADES the Star Wars galaxy.

Phaser type weapons that are canon in Star Wars tend to ignore shields and punch through armor like my finger through wet tissue paper. It's not unlikely the UFP could at least alter their weapons to exploit these weaknesses.

Uh, what? Proof?

Literally a couple of Gravimetric torpedos should be more then enough to take out a Death Star. Star Wars has little to no defense against anything that makes black holes.

Right...because the Federation clearly actually mass produced them...oh, no, they didn't.

The Sun crusher isn't really an issue. The only weapons the Sun Crusher has are technobabble torpedos, and fighter scale blasters. The thing is just a fighter with a special torpedo launcher. The torpedos are technobabble as I understand it making them of little use against ships. At worst they wait until the pilot has to come out. Resonance torpedo type weapons are a dime a dozen in Star Trek.

???

The sun crusher can make a sun go nova. It was practically invulnerable to damage, even staying in a red giant for many years and not getting damaged iirc. Therefore, the sun crusher could blow up every Federation star system and the Federation can't do anything to stop it.

Someone will have to explain what the big deal is with centerpoint station. It sounds neat and all, but whats the big deal from a military point of view?

Centerpoint station can not only tow stars and such, it can DESTROY them too from ACROSS THE GALAXY. Therefore, centerpoint station could casually blow up every Federation planet while a Federation task force would have to find Centerpoint station and then spend decades trying to get to it.

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:

Khas wrote:1.) The novel "The Hutt Gambit" mentions Base Delta Zero firepower inconsistent with the ICS. It mentions that there would be burning buildings, corpses remaining from the bombardment, and that they'd have to send down shuttles and TIE Fighters to do mop-up work.

Details please? Size of planet? Defenses? Time bombarded? Bombardment forces? Objectives?

The world was Nar Shaddaa, the moon of Nal Hutta. According to Wookiepedia, Nar Shadda has a diameter of 4,750 km, which would make it smaller than Mercury. There were 25 ships in that fleet: 3 Dreadnaughts, 4 Bulk Cruisers, 2 Carrack-class cruisers, and 16 light cruisers. Nar Shaddaa was protected by a planetary shield. The objective was to wipe out Nar Shaddaa. I don't think BDZ has any other objectives.

"Star Wars: The New Essential Guide To Weapons and Technology" (Published in '04), gives the turbolaser an optimal range of 15 km, and a maximum range of 100 km.

Blatantly contradicted by higher G canon.

Where? Seems consistent to me.

For power generation levels, look no further than the Executor crashing into the Death Star and exploding in Return of the Jedi. If it did put out the amount of energy Saxton claimed, that explosion would not only have been MUCH bigger, but Endor would have suffered terrible, terrible damage.

Safeguards, anyone? Sort of like how modern day nuclear reactors don't explode when hit.

Except that you know as well as I do that the Executor was vaporized, reactor and all. Anything producing star-level amounts of energy would do a lot of damage to nearby objects. And besides, nuclear reactors produce much less energy than a nuclear bomb.

Also, the Death Star novel states that the superlaser was a chain-reaction weapon.

I read Star Wars: Death Star, and don't remember such a quote.

Wookiepedia, quoting the Death Star novel wrote: The superlaser was composed of several exotic matter beams accelerated and amplified by gigantic focusing magnetic lenses and coils, producing a single powerful beam. Unlike turbolasers, it pulled energy from a massive hypermatter core, converting the energy present in hyperspace into highly unstable particles that were tremendously destructive in normal space. The energy delivered into a target was so great that it could cause the target's atoms to split into matter-antimatter pairs and annihilate themselves, generating a powerful surge capable of rupturing the barrier between normal space and hyperspace.

2.) SW has the advantage here.

A HUGE advantage, which makes this an uterally one sided war. The Allies beat the Axis largely because they outproduced the Axis by at least a 2 to one margin; the United States alone outproduced all the Axis nations combined. In this war, Star Wars would outproduce Star Trek by literally millions to one.

You simply cannot beat an opponent who has a million to one industrial advantage over you in a conventional war unless if you're thousands of years ahead of them.

I think you're exaggerating just a little bit. ;) Twenty to one is more reasonable.

3.) Normally, warp drive is slower, unless we decide to count ST: V as canon, in which the Enterprise zooms into the galactic core from Earth's region of space in less than an hour.

Warp drive is normally FAR slower than hyperdrive, effectively crippling the Federation's strategic mobility.

4.) The Federation might detect conflict between Imperial and Rebel forces, and if they're already at war with the Empire, would leap to help the Rebels, who would provide them with a great ally.

But the Federation on its own could not possibly invade any established Star Wars faction.

Right, like the Hapan Consortium (63 worlds), Ssi-ruuvi Imperium (Unknown), Chiss Ascendancy (28 worlds), Tion Hegemony (27 systems), all considered major powers in the SW galaxy...

5.) If by "counter", you mean "match the destructive effects", than trilithium missiles should do the trick, as they knock out fusion in a star, causing it to give off a subspace shockwave capable of destroying an entire star system. If by "counter", you mean "stop", for the Death Stars, they could just send a squad of Runabouts or Tac Fighters down the trench. Or they could modify a torpedo to find a small thermal exhaust port via exhaust, not unlike the torpedo used in Star Trek VI to find Chang's bird-of-prey. As for the others, red matter works perfectly well. In case you're wondering what red matter does, it forms black holes when it touches normal matter. A single drop is enough to turn an Earth-sized planet (in this case, Vulcan), into a black hole.

Except that centerpoint station and galaxy guns both can fire from across the galaxy, and the sun crusher was expected to take a full on hit from the death star.

You didn't mention the Galaxy Gun. And red matter's effects happen regardless of power levels. Did you even see Star Trek XI? And besides, since, according to Cryptic and CBS, Star Trek Online is canon (unless a TV show or movie contradicts something in it, then the thing in STO becomes non-canon), the Federation has weaponized red matter and antiproton cannons. Ooh yeah, and transwarp. MUCH faster than warp.

Hope that answers your questions.

:)[/quote]

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:Since when is the ICS only referring to the Acclamators in the movies? That wasn't specified, and making a technicality out of its name doesn't work. The movie acclamators were early ones that were seeing combat for the first time. They clearly weren't equipped with turbolasers at the time

And what Acclamators did you see that had weapons?
I don't recall any of them having some...

1. They were trying to rescue the Jedi

Which weren't even close, and they were not so much worried about collateral damage, since they shot down massive Federation spheres that crashed right next to the Battlefield.
Even using the weapons in the movies using 10 times more power would have created less damage then those massive spheres crashing did...

And you ignore the comment about blasting Obi-Wan with those "KT" level weapons: when the goal is to kill him, they fire a low-powered blast which is not even 1/100th of their maximum yield, according to the ICS...

3. As you posted, there was a theater shield. Blasting the area around the shield would be blasting nothing other than terrain, because logically the droid army would be inside the shield.

As seen in the episode, the terrain was filled with tunnels under it, so heavy fire right next to the shields would have created massive shockwaves capable of damaging the very ground the Droid Foundry was resting on...

In TCW, AT-TEs are used to destroy Grievious's ships from behind.
Ships that can supposedly withstand GT or even MT of firepower are destroyed by supposedly KT weapons...

warp drives too slow to allow for casual galactic trade.

Actually, the Federation of Planets covers between 8000 to 10000 LY, and trades with the Klingons, the Ferengi, and other neighboring races or Empires quite well, so while they do not cover the entire Galaxy, they do indeed travel fast enough in their own neck of the woods to trade with neighbors far away.
DS9 showed us travel times of a few days to distances within 100-200 LY, between 18 250 and 36 500 times c.
ST : FC even showed us the E-E going from the Romulan Neutral zone (135-150LY from Earth) back to Earth, most likely in less than an hour, or 1 182 600c to 1 314 000c.
So in know territory, they are quite the equivalent to Hyperdrives...

No, even without hyperlanes hyperdrive is still many orders of magnitude faster than warp drive, giving Star Wars a MASSIVE logistical and mobility advantage.

Details, please?

Yeah, the Federation has these cool treknologies that would help them a lot if the mass produced them and actually used them...too bad that they never do.

Agreed, while they can produce them, for some reason they never do...

And even if it was, they couldn't.

Agreed, I don't see the Federation as capable of invading the SW galaxy, but they could provide incredible assistance to the Rebels...

That's making the false assumption that a Federation ship could even damage a star destroyer.

That's making the false assumption that a shiop threatened by 20 meters asteroids is really that tough, or that an ISD is much more powerful than Fed ships, which hasn't been proven...

Trinoya wrote:In the Thrawn Trilogy we have a Star Destroyer needing to use a specially designed cooling station to protect it from a stars energy output.

Actually, you're only partly right here, Trin. Here's the relevent quotes from HttE:

"The problems will be minimal,' Thrawn said with easy confidence. 'If the jump is done with sufficient accuracy, the Judicator will be in direct sunlight for only a few minutes each way. Its hull can certainly handle that much. We'll simply need to take a few days first to shield the viewports and remove external sensors and communications equipment." ["Heir to the Empire", p. 101 ]

"The Star Destroyer itself didn't worry him - if Lando's descriptions of the sunlight's intensity were right, the big ship itself was probably helpless by now, its sensors and maybe even a fair amount of its armament vaporized right off its hull." [ "Heir to the Empire", p. 145 ]

"Captain Pellaeon, how long will it take to repair the damage to the Judicator?"

"Several days at the least, Admiral," Pellaeon told him. "Depending on the damage, it could take as long as three or four weeks." [ "Heir to the Empire", p. 150 ]

The first quote is the most important one since Thrawn is telling Pellaeon how long at most the ISD should be exposed to Athega's radiation. Contrary to what some pro-Wars types would have you believe, the Judicator did not spend the whole 30 minute battle exposed, only a few minutes coming and going from Nkllon's shadow. Even if we were to assume that Athega was some sort of blue-white supergiant star (which it wasn't as per the HttE comic's artwork), ships with the ludicrous power and shield outputs of the AoTC: ICS stats would easily shrug that off, and the hull would not suffer the slightest bit of damage. However as the third quote clearly states, Judicator was expected to be out of action for days, possibly up to a month. Federation starships as well as other ST starships, on the other hand, have flown in close to G-type stars as well as K-type stars, pulsars, neutron stars, and red giant stars on numerous occasions, without seeing serious hull damage. In a number of the examples, the shields were able to withstand stellar radiation for some considerable amount of time, even after previous signficant damage from combat or other events unrelated to the star's EM radiation (See: "Redemption, part 2" [TNG], "Relics" [TNG], "Descent, part 2" [TNG], "Scientific Method" [VOY], and "Cogenitor" [ST:ENT] for examples).
-Mike

SWST wrote:3. As you posted, there was a theater shield. Blasting the area around the shield would be blasting nothing other than terrain, because logically the droid army would be inside the shield.

Hey, Amann, iherduliekthem, is that one of you guys?

Regardless, I've never anywhere, at anytime have heard of Geonosis having a theater shield. I'd like to hear yours and Lucky's source on that one. Even granting the rescue scenario, once the Anakin, Obi-Wan, Padame, and the other Jedi were rescued there should have been little reason to hold back with the atomic bomb scale firepower, especially to destroy the droid army opposing them. Further, there was little preventing the Seperatist forces from opening up with kiloton scale firepower to kill huge numbers of Clonetroopers and the remaining Jedi once Poggle the Lesser and the rest of the Geonosisans taken shelter below ground.

Not to mention, as someone here has already pointed out, how the hell was it that one of the TF battleship cores that launched off got taken out with so little firepower from that Self-Propelled Heavy Artillery (SPHA)-T gun without the massive atmospheric heating and shockwave that would have occured, if it were a gigaton-scale weapon?

So does that mean that Wars ships can't handle concentrated weapons fire of low kilotons strength?

Praeothmin wrote:That's making the false assumption that a shiop threatened by 20 meters asteroids is really that tough, or that an ISD is much more powerful than Fed ships, which hasn't been proven...

Praeo, that's really being generous of you to assume those asteroids are as big as 20 meters in the first place. But either way, that they felt threatened enough by gigajoule-range KE impacts to warrant shooting the asteroids in the first place, says a lot about ISD shields were at least that sort of thing is concerned.
-Mike

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:1. A blatant, unjustifiable contradiction by G canon OR 3 or more by T/C canon of the ICS.

Well, I won't exactly list three, given that others have already listed some.

1) Downfall of a Droid from T canon

Basically, the instance is set up with a planet that has a ring of asteroids around it. Anakin, whose planning for General Grievous's assault, was trying to come up with a way to even the odds against him.

General Grievous and his fleet arrives. Grievous orders them to go through the asteroid field. The B1 balks at the order and another shudders when an asteroid gently bounces off the ship's forward shields/hull. Grievous then orders all power to the forward shields.

A B1 points out what would happen if someone attacked them from behind. Grievous responds that the asteroids would protect them. The fleet continues until it begins engaging the Republic forces (it should be noted that both sides are able to keep perfect track of the other's fleet at the moment--nor was the asteroid field all that dense for even a visual confirmation).

Grievous's forces have the advantage at first, but then Anakin and Ashoka reveal their trap; dozens of ATs hidden on the asteroids. They all open fire and inflict considerable damage on the unshielded parts of the fleet. The B1 even comments that they've been outflanked.

2) Ryloth Trilogy/The Zillo Beast

(Zillo Beast) We've all seen how powerful fighter lasers are. We even see that the Republic would rather test a prototype weapon with the yield of a kiloton at most--and seen as to be the last chance to end the battle quickly for the Republic on said planet...yet they never once use their lasers.

(Innocents of Ryloth) Going purely by visual. We see those uber powerful Acclamators who can disperse gigatons of firepower being punked by shots that range from hundreds of tons, to maybe a kiloton or so from ground forces.

(Liberty on Ryloth) We see Dooku ordering that the general on Ryloth, after it's apparent he's lost the planet, order that the planet be carpet bombed. We then later see the B1 droids loading on some bomb shells and watch as they take off. Later, the actual bombing, which requires a pass of about six of these bomber droids, is at best tons, nowhere near kilotons.

And keep in mind, this was their choice over just using the laser cannons on the Vulture Droids. If their weapons were already rated in the kilotons, why bother with ordances that are hundreds of times, if not thousands of times weaker?

(Storm over Ryloth) As noted above, we have clearly proven that lasers are sub-kiloton. In this episode, we see that dozens of fighters are used by the Republic forces to cripple and destroy CIS frigates. While there were Y-Wings, which were no doubt bombing the fuck out of some of them with proton torps, we clearly see the lasers being incredibly effective.

2. An explanation as to how the Federation matches or even comes close to matching Star War's industrial and numerical advantage.

It doesn't. But then again, it doesn't have to. SW politics are incredibly unstable and bloody. Even despite the fact that at its height, the Imperial Navy had millions of ships, 25,000 of them being ISDs, they couldn't invade the openly defiant Mon Calamri. Despite the fact that they only had a dozen ships or so protecting the system.

As it turned out, the rebellion had spread so quickly that the Imperial Navy was pretty much fighting a brushfire they couldn't stop. To further compound them, it was mentioned in one of the Thrawn Trilogies that the Empire spent most of its time trying to hold itself together due to inner conflict than actually fighting the Rebels. And the Galactic Alliance or New Republic or whatever that came afterwards found themselves doing just the same thing.

That's not even getting into the fact that the superior firepower of the ISDs compared to the rest of the fleet is simply massive. According to the WEB ISB, an ISD is considered tactically, to be a fleet in its own right, but was reduced to a line for political reasons. Then put that on top of the fact that the budget for one of these monsters is equal to the output of an entire nation in SW.

And said ISDs are inferior to most ST ships. The sheer losses that the Empire would face fielding a ship that could even hope to match UFP types is simply mind boggling. Especially when the intitial costs of the ISD was said to have nearly caused the Empire to split in and of itself. Losing them left and right would be downright devistating to the Empire.

So it's either that--or zerg rush the UFP with ineffective ships who are considered to be maybe 1/20th or 1/10th on average as the ship that is already incapable of matching a TOS ship in one on one. Starting to see the problems here?

And that's even assuming that an invasion can get off its feet. The Old Republic was outright forced to work with a slave trade orginization when they lost all their current hyperspace routes to the Outer Rim. They couldn't make any new routes. They were essentially fucked. Given that's the case, how the Empire will make the tens of thousands of lanes that would be required for a proper invaison of the Federation is just a massive task that they'd never be able to complete while the UFP and their allies are hounding them.

And then of course, how are these worlds connected? Wormhole? The UFP can easily mine that off with self-replicating mines. And how many can they make you ask? Well, think of it this way; the 22nd century Romulan Empire mined off an entire planet.

Think about that.

3. An explanation as to how the Federation's warp drive can possibly be matched to the far faster Star Wars hyperdrive.

Either Starfleet gets a hold of hyperdrive (which would be child's play so long as they can either capture a ship or get some help from a nearby planet) or they work on Quantum Slipstream.

4. A plan as to how the Federation could possibly mount any successful invasion of the Star Wars galaxy in under 100 years.

Their best bet is Quantum Slipstream. Or stealing a hyperdrive.

5. An explanation as to how the Federation counters the sun crusher, centerpoint station or even the 2 death stars.

A cloaked runabout, a 500 megaton bomb, and a transporter.

Any questions?

Speaking of TCW and the depiction of Star Wars politics and economics, in one of the latest episodes of the 3rd season, "Heroes on Both Sides", we hear that the Galactic Republic is in serious danger of bankruptcy, if the Senate does not pass a measure to deregulate the banks, which will in turn open up a new line of extended credit to the Republic's government for more clones and weapons.

Seriously. The mighty Galactic Republic, thousands of planets, many still with them after at least 10,000 left with the Seperatists left to form the Confederacy of Independent Systems‎, we hear of bankruptcy, and only after a couple of years of fighting, too. Makes me wonder if the Galactic Empire really could manage to pull off a protracted war with an extra-galactic power or powers, as well as just how much in the way of resources the Empire wasted on building the two Death Stars when they could have put it into other, more useful things, and how much it may have seriously strained the Empire's economy in doing so.
-Mike