Starfleet Jedi

Video.

Is it right to use that schematic view to derive an acceleration figure?
Yes or no?
Reasons?

Obviously, if you say yes, you have to acknowledge the fact that it's entirely up to the size of the DSII. From 160 km to 900 km, the results can largely vary.

Besides, there's that fast rotation the "ionized" ISD accidentally executed at Hoth. With some engines completely knocked off and other partially working, the ship exectued like a 60~80° turn.

I'd say no. Even if youu knew the size of DSII and could make an accurate guess to the circle outline for the missing part of the perimeter, there's nothing that says if the changes in the position of the rebel fleet is supposed to be accurate or not. The fact that it isn't a continuous image that moves that doesn't fade away before reappearing shows that it isn't intended to be accurate for exact positioning of the fleet. Since there's nothing to indicate that they have weapon placements at the bunker that can reach orbit (if they did exist, why didn't they get used to keep the rebels out of the bunker?; a shield projected from the surface to protect the DS should protect the bunker from its orbit range weapons and you wouldn't need guards outside at all that could be drawn away by anyone stealing one of their rides-- can someone tell me why they would be parked so far away?) It's probably just for approximate position for proximity, but isn't tactically useful. Besides, if we were to say that each blue "square" represents a ship, there are too many squares on that screen than what shows up to fight, fighters and larger ships included that we see arrive or even launch from near sullest.

Edit: And the "rear dive" that SD took after getting blasted could have been caused my malfunctioning stabilzation thrusters (some misfiring and others not firing; it didn't seem close enough for the planet's gravitational pull to cause that movement; we know they got some type of pivoting/twisting thrusters, even if we don't see exhaust, unless it's some kind of hyperspace tech thing).

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Besides, there's that fast rotation the "ionized" ISD accidentally executed at Hoth. With some engines completely knocked off and other partially working, the ship exectued like a 60~80° turn.

Which is a bit odd, as far as how fast that ISD rotates, given what we see as the apparent maximum turn rate (to avoid colliding with each other) for the three ISDs the Falcon dives away from not too much later on in the movie.

Given where the ion cannon bolts hit, I'am not sure the bolts could have imparted all the KE necessary to spin the ISD like that on their own.
-Mike

Mike DiCenso wrote:Which is a bit odd, as far as how fast that ISD rotates, given what we see as the apparent maximum turn rate (to avoid colliding with each other) for the three ISDs the Falcon dives away from not too much later on in the movie.

Well, I may have been too generous in the degrees, it's closer to a 50° turn on the vertical axis, plus a few degrees up for the bow.

So, what's the reason behind the semi crash during the pursuit?
Distracted crews? Nah.
Maybe the engines or other ethereal rudders or whatever weren't at full power?
Or possible tractor beams actually interlocking on each other ISD?

Given where the ion cannon bolts hit, I'am not sure the bolts could have imparted all the KE necessary to spin the ISD like that on their own.
-Mike

That's what I've ben thinking, especially considering where it was hit in regards of the ship's barycenter, but the ship doesn't rotate at all after being hit.
It's only when the rebel ships fly by that the ISD has finally turned, and that in a very few seconds.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Video.

Is it right to use that schematic view to derive an acceleration figure?
Yes or no?
Reasons?

I'm going to put it bluntly: No. Not in the way that it has been used.

And here's why. It's not that - as you mention - the scaling of the DS2 creates a large variation in the figures. That clip in particular is unusably small resolution, but higher resolution figures are available.

The only way you can judge the acceleration capability of the Imperial fleet from that scene is by the change in its displacement from update to update. This change can give you a very rough estimation of acceleration... but, IIRC, it's indistinguishable from no acceleration at the resolutions available.

To explain why, I'll quote the key line in Saxton's argument that betrays the problem:

At this speed and heading, the fleet could have hit the surface of the battle station within several seconds. The destroyers must halted within this time.

As Saxton himself points out, but promptly neglects to account for, we are dealing with a two dimensional projection of a three dimensional scenario:

The true velocity could be greater if there is a component of motion perpendicular to the plane of the screen.

Not only could the true velocity be greater... the Star Destroyers don't need to be on a collision course in the first place.

Grasp that? The entire argument for thousands of gs of acceleration is predicated not only on a frequently questioned scaling of the Death Star, not simply on a scant few seconds of a tactical display, but on the Star Destroyers suddenly and sharply decelerating off screen in order to avoid impact...

... when, in fact, it seems very unlikely that the Star Destroyers were on a heading that would impact the Death Star, and being on that heading in the first place assumes very reckless behavior on the part of the Imperial fleet commander.

The fact that this contradicts a substantial body of other acceleration figures doesn't even matter at this point; the simple fact is that the methodology is incorrect.

Frankly, I personally remained unaware of that bit form of evidence for years, not feeling particularily concerned about that bit.

Now, since playing devil's advocate can be funny for a while, but definitively tiresome, let's just look at the problems with that diagram.

The swarm of blue dots is approaching the Death Star, or seems to. Which would somewhat defeat the purpose of taking the rebels by surprise, by sandwhiching them, right?

This fleet is approaching the DS from one quarter and a half from the dish's direction, anticlockwise. Technically, we could say that they're coming from behind the Death Star.

So, how do you actually make Palpatine's order fit with that "evidence"?
The suggestion is that the imperial fleet remained hidden behind the moon, like he said, but not Endor. The moon, here, would be the Death Star (let's assume for a moment that it's nicknamed as a moon, a bit like ObiWan did in ANH). If the moon referenced in the movie was Endor, then why would the fleet be approaching the Death Star, instead of moving away and hiding on the other side of Endor?

Then, when the rebel fleet comes out of hyperspace, far from the moon, they don't spot any imperial ship at all. There's none to be seen. Their trajectory is a curve, since they come facing Endor, then turn and only face Endor's horizon, but directly face the Death Star's dish.

In all ways, if the imperial fleet tried to hide behind the Death Star, this plan would have been so risky that the ships should have had to stick very close to the battle station.

Trouble is, when Lando realizes that they're trapped, they u-turn and see the imperial fleet facing them. Since a hyperspace jump this close to Endor seems out of question, you got to wonder where the ships come.
Logically, the story would want us to think that the ships were hiding on the other side of Endor, and approached the rebel fleet from behind, to trap it between them and the Death Star.
Which is logical.

But this makes you wonder why the schematic displayed the imperial fleet approaching the Death Star when the rebel fleet was about to arrive. It makes no sense.

Not only is that schematic the fruit of a rendition that does not really bothers with correct scaling, but what it represents makes no sense at all. You can't have the imperial fleet approaching the DS, when the whole point was to actually go away and hide on the other side of Endor.

Technically, it would be much more logical for these blue dots to actually represent the rebel fleet on its way to Endor.
Say a couple of ships have been painted, transporting beacons, it's clearly nothing new here, and the whole Emperor's plan largely relied on misinformation. The idea that there could be traitors among the rebels is not out of question.
After all, they had reports of the fleet gathering near Sullust.

Of course, this would also mean that the schematic's scales are even more irrelevant, as completely off.

JMS, you're right on the point that Saxton assumed the imperial fleet was moving towards the Death Star, but if it was not, the difference shouldn't be that important anyway, and it wouldn't make much sense to display this kind of visual information if it wasn't reliable in a way or another.





Taking the absolute extreme of this reasoning, say that in a 3D space, axis X is the one pointing at the Death Star, and centered of the imperial fleet.
Y is the one that would be pointed at the screen, or opposite to the screen.

Saxton assumed that with the vector (x;y), x>0 and y roughly within what would bring the fleet into contact with the battle station. Not zero but a low value nonetheless.
We got to consider that if the tactical display is in 2D, while it could have been in 3D if it had to, it's likely because x is largely bigger than y, and that it can be simplified to a 2D schematic view, since the depth displacement (y) is negligible.

If the scales were correct, in some kind of way, then Saxton's estimation wouldn't be that wrong.
Of course, that would also require several of his other asumptions to be true as well. But it's not the case.

The main problem to me, really, is why, what people consider to be the imperial fleet, is seen approaching the Death Star by the time Han's team attacks the generator, while it's been maaaaany hours, maybe a whole day, since the Emperor ordered the damn fleet to move to the far side of Endor and stay there until further notice?

That would probably be the best way to screw Palpy's plan and piss him off you know, instead of staying put and only moving when he says so.

That's why I think it does represent, in a very artistically free way, the rebel fleet approaching Endor through hyperspace.

In the end, the manoeuver the imperial fleet pulled is still impressive. They followed an orbital course from behind Endor, to pop up on the rebel fleet's tail, and from there slowed down to meet the other ships and remain at a given distance from the Death Star, all that within a very short timeframe.

The Rebel fleet doesn't pull a 180 to avoid the DS2. Most of the fleet vears off to the left somewhere between 90 and 120 degrees (this is supported by the view from Palpatine's tower). I find this odd, since the Imperial fleet is supposed to stop them from escaping, but isn't in a good possition to do so. Indeed the Rebel fleet only remains and engages the Imperial fleet to bide their time and let Han take out the shield. I think the reason the Rebels were unaware of the Imp fleet is because their sensors were being jammed (not raspberry!) since the Imps shouldn't have been able to get in position undetected even with Saxton's absurd acceleration figures.

AnonymousRedShirtEnsign wrote:The Rebel fleet doesn't pull a 180 to avoid the DS2. Most of the fleet vears off to the left somewhere between 90 and 120 degrees (this is supported by the view from Palpatine's tower). I find this odd, since the Imperial fleet is supposed to stop them from escaping, but isn't in a good possition to do so. Indeed the Rebel fleet only remains and engages the Imperial fleet to bide their time and let Han take out the shield. I think the reason the Rebels were unaware of the Imp fleet is because their sensors were being jammed (not raspberry!) since the Imps shouldn't have been able to get in position undetected even with Saxton's absurd acceleration figures.

When Lando leads the snubfighters and actually executes a 180°, followed by the other squadrons, he suddenly faces the imperial fleet looking straight into their direction. Face to face, with TIE fighters in approach.
When he and the others fly straight ahead into the swarms of enemy fighters, the DS is exactly on their back, and the imperial fleet in front of them.

Then after that, all capital ships start to rotate left and right once both fleets have fused together, which corresponds to the view from Palpatine's tower.

Jamming sensors or not, the pilots still have eyeballs, and the imperial fleet would have been unmissable if it had already been there, over the horizon or even closer, considering the way the rebels approached Endor.

The best strategy for the Imperials would be to get the rebels cornered between three elements:

Endor, the Death Star and the imperial fleet.
Both the Death Star and the destroyers would be using whatever they use to forbid any escape into hyperspace, and they'd engage any ship coming too close.
Endor would forbid any hyperspace jump because of gravity.
Finally, the Death Star would shoot down the rebel capital ships.

Sweet post, Mr. O.

Might also be worth examining the images of the DS2 in the relevant scenes . . . certainly the DS2 (when the Rebel fleet was in close approach and about to turn away) was oriented in such a direction that the fleet of dots from the bunker screen would've been at or near the planet.

I'll try to check the DVD later regarding the hyperspace exit shot, though IIRC we're so far away there's no useful info there . . . in which case the most likely orientation at the time would be completely wrong for it to be showing a real fleet.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:This fleet is approaching the DS from one quarter and a half from the dish's direction, anticlockwise. Technically, we could say that they're coming from behind the Death Star.

Not necessarily. They're simply somewhere in that general area, such that a projection onto a flat screen falls on that side of that axis.

So, how do you actually make Palpatine's order fit with that "evidence"?
The suggestion is that the imperial fleet remained hidden behind the moon, like he said, but not Endor. The moon, here, would be the Death Star (let's assume for a moment that it's nicknamed as a moon, a bit like ObiWan did in ANH). If the moon referenced in the movie was Endor, then why would the fleet be approaching the Death Star, instead of moving away and hiding on the other side of Endor?

Actually, the moon is Endor alright. The novelization makes that explicit instead of just implicit - although there's nothing wrong with hiding behind Endor and then approaching from the Endor side (non-dish side) of the Death Star.

Then, when the rebel fleet comes out of hyperspace, far from the moon, they don't spot any imperial ship at all. There's none to be seen. Their trajectory is a curve, since they come facing Endor, then turn and only face Endor's horizon, but directly face the Death Star's dish.

In all ways, if the imperial fleet tried to hide behind the Death Star, this plan would have been so risky that the ships should have had to stick very close to the battle station.

The diagram does have a bad time fitting the facts. Most particularly notable is that the fleets engage and approach in the movie not on a scale of a couple seconds, but minutes, and do so substantially further from the Death Star than we see.

Trouble is, when Lando realizes that they're trapped, they u-turn and see the imperial fleet facing them. Since a hyperspace jump this close to Endor seems out of question, you got to wonder where the ships come.
Logically, the story would want us to think that the ships were hiding on the other side of Endor, and approached the rebel fleet from behind, to trap it between them and the Death Star.
Which is logical.

But this makes you wonder why the schematic displayed the imperial fleet approaching the Death Star when the rebel fleet was about to arrive. It makes no sense.

Actually, if you think about it carefully, it does make sense. Which is surprising, and probably wasn't intentional, more of an accidental slip-up that we can describe coherently. The Imperials fly out from behind the Death Star, skimming right around it and and in the direction opposite - but not quite straight at - the Rebel fleet.

The Rebel fleet, meanwhile, is approaching the Death Star - meaning that, with limited acceleration, they are very effectively sandwiched by the difference in relative velocities. By the time the Rebels will have reversed course, the Imperials will be waiting for them.

Again, this makes no sense with a Saxtonian Imperial U-Turn (TM), which also has problems with the fact that the main part of the battle occurs further from the Death Star than the diagram - if to scale - would indicate. Just look at the small portion of the screen that the Death Star takes up when it's shooting down Rebel ships!

Not only is that schematic the fruit of a rendition that does not really bothers with correct scaling, but what it represents makes no sense at all. You can't have the imperial fleet approaching the DS, when the whole point was to actually go away and hide on the other side of Endor.

Technically, it would be much more logical for these blue dots to actually represent the rebel fleet on its way to Endor.
Say a couple of ships have been painted, transporting beacons, it's clearly nothing new here, and the whole Emperor's plan largely relied on misinformation. The idea that there could be traitors among the rebels is not out of question.
After all, they had reports of the fleet gathering near Sullust.

Of course, this would also mean that the schematic's scales are even more irrelevant, as completely off.

JMS, you're right on the point that Saxton assumed the imperial fleet was moving towards the Death Star, but if it was not, the difference shouldn't be that important anyway, and it wouldn't

Taking the absolute extreme of this reasoning, say that in a 3D space, axis X is the one pointing at the Death Star, and centered of the imperial fleet.
Y is the one that would be pointed at the screen, or opposite to the screen.

Saxton assumed that with the vector (x;y), x>0 and y roughly within what would bring the fleet into contact with the battle station. Not zero but a low value nonetheless.
We got to consider that if the tactical display is in 2D, while it could have been in 3D if it had to, it's likely because x is largely bigger than y, and that it can be simplified to a 2D schematic view, since the depth displacement (y) is negligible.
make much sense to display this kind of visual information if it wasn't reliable in a way or another.

Reliable is not the same thing as orthogonally correct. Even a small difference in the lateral velocity and displacement can have truly dramatic effects on the acceleration figures resulting - and, as you point out, the Rebels are on the dish side.

If the scales were correct, in some kind of way, then Saxton's estimation wouldn't be that wrong.
Of course, that would also require several of his other asumptions to be true as well. But it's not the case.

The main problem to me, really, is why, what people consider to be the imperial fleet, is seen approaching the Death Star by the time Han's team attacks the generator, while it's been maaaaany hours, maybe a whole day, since the Emperor ordered the damn fleet to move to the far side of Endor and stay there until further notice?

That would probably be the best way to screw Palpy's plan and piss him off you know, instead of staying put and only moving when he says so.

That's why I think it does represent, in a very artistically free way, the rebel fleet approaching Endor through hyperspace.[/quote]
Good point. Perhaps you are right - but again, in that case, the diagram is useless for deriving real-space acceleration figures. It's simply not a case where the information available requires particular accelerations.

In the end, the manoeuver the imperial fleet pulled is still impressive. They followed an orbital course from behind Endor, to pop up on the rebel fleet's tail, and from there slowed down to meet the other ships and remain at a given distance from the Death Star, all that within a very short timeframe.

They did pull off a clever maneuver - but that doesn't mean it was fast. Just sneaky and full of malice aforethought.

2046 wrote:Sweet post, Mr. O.

Might also be worth examining the images of the DS2 in the relevant scenes . . . certainly the DS2 (when the Rebel fleet was in close approach and about to turn away) was oriented in such a direction that the fleet of dots from the bunker screen would've been at or near the planet.

I'll try to check the DVD later regarding the hyperspace exit shot, though IIRC we're so far away there's no useful info there . . . in which case the most likely orientation at the time would be completely wrong for it to be showing a real fleet.

If I remember correctly, with the Falcon in the lead, the fleet moves down and to their left, while in hyperspace and, once they're exiting and slowing down, Endor in the distance is seen moving from one of the upper right windows of the Falcon's cockpit and stops around somewhere in the half circle one in the center. Which means they then, moved up and to their right, while they were slowing down. When the s-foils are deployed, it looked like they were above the equator of the DS and moved down a little, so they were more in line with a perpendicular path to the equator when we switched to the closer shot of the DS and the fighters turning around when Lando gives the order.

2046 wrote:Sweet post, Mr. O.

Might also be worth examining the images of the DS2 in the relevant scenes . . . certainly the DS2 (when the Rebel fleet was in close approach and about to turn away) was oriented in such a direction that the fleet of dots from the bunker screen would've been at or near the planet.

Yep, and if scales were completely fµcked up, they would be inside the planet. :D

I'll try to check the DVD later regarding the hyperspace exit shot, though IIRC we're so far away there's no useful info there . . . in which case the most likely orientation at the time would be completely wrong for it to be showing a real fleet.

The exit shot has always been an oddity to me considering the size of the small grey ball in comparison to the size of Endor.
That inconsistency aside, it's quite clear that the rebel fleet approached Endor first, then after reaching some kind of orbit, they turned left to face the Death Star's dish... if the grey thing is the Death Star.

Is it just a rocky moon to Endor? Another one? Duh, so that would mean that Palpatine ordered the imperial fleet to hide behind that small grey moon, instead of Endor?

I'll adress the imperial fleet manoeuver in details later, but I'm still completely unconvinced that the ISDs managed to pull a figure which would have them fly a few tens or hundreds of kilometers away from the rebel fleet unspotted, just to end on their tail.

Aside from the fact that Saxton makes countless erroneous assumptions in his interpretation of the imperial schematic, one thing I noticed about the thousands of G argument is that they argue that the fleet must have decelerated extremely fast, within a minute or so.

However, sensors were blind. There was a lot of jamming going on there, and the rebel ships couldn't spot the fleet moving on their sixes until they'd turn around and see it with their eyeglobes.

Above all, if we were really anal about those details, then you'd have to consider how long it took for the rebels to reach the Death Star.
Indeed, compare the position of the DS regarding Endor's terminator when the rebel fleet comes out of hyperspace, and then the station's position when the fleet is near the station.

Hours have passed.

Is that the standard of solid evidence?

If nothing else, this shows the often contradictory nature of the FX work. Given that the DS2 is supposed to be in a stationary orbit above the shield generator facility, the change in lighting conditions cannot be dismissed away as the battlestation merely orbiting around the planet in a conventional nature, it would have to be the planet and the station moving moving the course of at least 1-2 hours.
-Mike

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Aside from the fact that Saxton makes countless erroneous assumptions in his interpretation of the imperial schematic, one thing I noticed about the thousands of G argument is that they argue that the fleet must have decelerated extremely fast, within a minute or so.

However, sensors were blind. There was a lot of jamming going on there, and the rebel ships couldn't spot the fleet moving on their sixes until they'd turn around and see it with their eyeglobes.

Above all, if we were really anal about those details, then you'd have to consider how long it took for the rebels to reach the Death Star.
Indeed, compare the position of the DS regarding Endor's terminator when the rebel fleet comes out of hyperspace, and then the station's position when the fleet is near the station.

Hours have passed.

Is that the standard of solid evidence?

Honestly, nobody with common sense can take Dr. Curtis John Saxton seriously, if it comes to Star Wars.

He may hold a degree in Astrophysics from the University of Sydney, but his observations of the Star Wars movies, his assumptions and his conclusions are often abysmal.

• • Dr. Curtis John Saxton about the [url=http://www.theforce.net/swtc/ds/index.html#nature]fundamental nature of the Death Star prime weapon[/url] wrote:The beam that struck Alderaan took less than a second to progate from the dish to the target. The range was about 75000km, which is about a quarter of a light-second. Thus the beam's speed is equal or approiximately equal to the speed of light.

That is a good example for his faulty obyervations and conclusions.

• • Only if the beam would have needed about a quarter of a second to struck Alderaan, it's speed would be equal or approiximately equal to the speed of light.
    
    If the beam would have needed about an half of a second to struck Alderaan, it's speed would already be only equal or approiximately equal to the half of the speed of light and that is clearly not equal or approiximately equal to the speed of light.
    
    If the beam would have needed about a three quarter of a second to struck Alderaan, it's speed would already be only equal or approiximately equal to one third of the speed of light and that is even more clearly not equal or approiximately equal to the speed of light.
    
    If the beam would have needed only a little bit less than a second to struck Alderaan, it's speed would already be only equal or approiximately equal to one quarter of the speed of light and that is even more clearly not equal or approiximately equal to the speed of light.
    
    Before announcing such a conclusion and basing whole theories about the nature of the Death Star prime weapon and all other turbo lasers or blasters on it, he should have tried to observe the movies more precisely to gain more reliable data.

Insofar, I agree, that Dr. Curtis John Saxtons proceedings are not able to provide solid evidence.

But your objection concerning the spamming is also not conclusive.

We don't know, that the jamming was already on, as the schematic was shown. They could have begun to jam the sensors later.

And it could be possible, that they are able to filter out their own jamming signal and have clear sensor readings or that their own fleet has sended its own position via transponder.