Starfleet Jedi

After some careful calculations, I've determined that The E+38 figure boasted about on SDN would vaporize Alderaan 10,000 times over, and blast the vapor clean out of the system. However Alderaan neither happened; Alderaan wasn't vaporized, but remained in orbit as the Alderaan Graveyard.

This indicates a power-figure no higher than E+29, max. However I do concur with the speed-figures of the explosion, as they're calculated from what's shown on-screen; therefore the beam could be neither DET nor any sort of "E-M conversion ray," but may have been a hyperdrive-type accelerator, which simply accelerated the planet's mass away from its core for a short distance, at a higher speed than the imparted energy would indicate. Likewise, the planet's own geothermal energy could have been used to shatter the planet via basic entropy, converting it to potential energy instead; we certainly didn't see any white-hot matter ejected from the planet's core, as we would if it exploded from additional energy, thus indicating that it cooled as fast as it exploded.

Hoe did you get your E+29 figure?

Praeothmin wrote:Hoe did you get your E+29 figure?

The mass of the planet accelerated to escape-velocity requires 1.1E+1J/g, and the planet weighs about 6E+27g-- yielding an upper-limit of E+29; any more energy than that E+29, and it would "escape" clean out of the solar-system-- which it didn't.

Likewise, I calculated that E+33J would vaporize the planet entirely-- even assuming that the entire planet was 0 degrees C, when in reality it's a lot more on average; so the E+38 figure would easily vaporize it 10,000 times over.

Again, the planet was neither vaporized nor "escaped," so E+29 is the maximum figure possible.
And likewise, the planet did explode at the .05C figure calculated by SDN, so that precludes any possibility of the Superlaser being a DET weapon-- but rather must have been a hyperspace-accelerator/energy converter of some kind, which simply "warped" the planet's mass into a larger area in Alderaan's orbit, possibly via an entropy-field; this would simply reverse the process by which the planet originally formed via colliding asteroids into a big hot ball of rock, and instead separated it back into a bunch of small cold asteroids orbiting their sun at a distance from one another.
So it wouldn't require any energy at all from the Dearth Star-- and could even produce surplus energy, such as that radiated out in the glowing magnetic rings produced by the explosion.

Well, the DS novel does state that the Superlaser "boosted" a large amount of the planet's mass in Hyperspace...

Praeothmin wrote:Well, the DS novel does state that the Superlaser "boosted" a large amount of the planet's mass in Hyperspace...

Then this fits well with the calculations listed, since it's the only way that the planet could have exploded at the rate shown, but still remained in Alderaan's orbit-- or even in the system altogether-- or avoided being completely vaporized.

So that settles the matter: the Superlaser was neither a DET weapon nor an EM-conversion weapon, contrary to the claims of SDN or ASVS; and it had to be a hyperspace accelerator.

This also fits with the rest of the technology in terms of consistency, since we never see anything near this type of effect in any other SW tech, other than hyperdrive.
So essentially, the DS was simply a giant hyperdrive-motivator, which could act on objects up to the mass of an Earth-sized planet-- or a larger area to evenly distribute the energy of everything in it, thus creating an entropy-field which would cause the planet to explode like a hot rock dropped into cold water.

Likewise, this would also explain why the DS could move itself at considerable speed in hyperspace, and also why it couldn't destroy Yavin despite it being a hydrogen gas-giant which would require less energy to explode than an Earth-type planet due to the possibility of fusing the core to go nova-- however this would require accelerating its core to critical mass, and hyperdrive wouldn't do that in N-space.
Likewise if the reaction was exothermic-- i.e. it simply spread the planet's own energy out over a larger area via entropy-- then blowing up a gas-giant would require a larger entropy-field than would an earth-sized planet, and the DS simply wasn't large enough to generate that-- nor would there be any good reason to waste resources making it so huge, since such planets could not possibly be inhabited.

KirkSkywalker wrote:

Praeothmin wrote:Well, the DS novel does state that the Superlaser "boosted" a large amount of the planet's mass in Hyperspace...

Then this fits well with the calculations listed, since it's the only way that the planet could have exploded at the rate shown, but still remained in Alderaan's orbit-- or even in the system altogether-- or avoided being completely vaporized.

So that settles the matter: the Superlaser was neither a DET weapon nor an EM-conversion weapon, contrary to the claims of SDN or ASVS; and it had to be a hyperspace accelerator.

This also fits with the rest of the technology in terms of consistency, since we never see anything near this type of effect in any other SW tech, other than hyperdrive.
So essentially, the DS was simply a giant hyperdrive-motivator, which could act on objects up to the mass of an Earth-sized planet-- or a larger area to evenly distribute the energy of everything in it, thus creating an entropy-field which would cause the planet to explode like a hot rock dropped into cold water.

Likewise, this would also explain why the DS could move itself at considerable speed in hyperspace, and also why it couldn't destroy Yavin despite it being a hydrogen gas-giant which would require less energy to explode than an Earth-type planet due to the possibility of fusing the core to go nova-- however this would require accelerating its core to critical mass, and hyperdrive wouldn't do that in N-space.
Likewise if the reaction was exothermic-- i.e. it simply spread the planet's own energy out over a larger area via entropy-- then blowing up a gas-giant would require a larger entropy-field than would an earth-sized planet, and the DS simply wasn't large enough to generate that-- nor would there be any good reason to waste resources making it so huge, since such planets could not possibly be inhabited.

1. What has N-space to do with that?
2. The superlaser largely being a weapon that reacts with mass actually fits a good number of facts and requirements. It fits with the novelization, it fits with the fact that it's much, much less effective if it has to go through planetary shielding (although it still burns the planet), and it also fits with the fact that it couldn't shoot through a gas giant.
Not to say that the hyperspace related effects don't show up at all when the power is lower, and there clearly is a DET component to it, although not as high as argued on SDN and SWTC.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:

KirkSkywalker wrote:

Praeothmin wrote:Well, the DS novel does state that the Superlaser "boosted" a large amount of the planet's mass in Hyperspace...

Then this fits well with the calculations listed, since it's the only way that the planet could have exploded at the rate shown, but still remained in Alderaan's orbit-- or even in the system altogether-- or avoided being completely vaporized.

So that settles the matter: the Superlaser was neither a DET weapon nor an EM-conversion weapon, contrary to the claims of SDN or ASVS; and it had to be a hyperspace accelerator.

This also fits with the rest of the technology in terms of consistency, since we never see anything near this type of effect in any other SW tech, other than hyperdrive.
So essentially, the DS was simply a giant hyperdrive-motivator, which could act on objects up to the mass of an Earth-sized planet-- or a larger area to evenly distribute the energy of everything in it, thus creating an entropy-field which would cause the planet to explode like a hot rock dropped into cold water.

Likewise, this would also explain why the DS could move itself at considerable speed in hyperspace, and also why it couldn't destroy Yavin despite it being a hydrogen gas-giant which would require less energy to explode than an Earth-type planet due to the possibility of fusing the core to go nova-- however this would require accelerating its core to critical mass, and hyperdrive wouldn't do that in N-space.
Likewise if the reaction was exothermic-- i.e. it simply spread the planet's own energy out over a larger area via entropy-- then blowing up a gas-giant would require a larger entropy-field than would an earth-sized planet, and the DS simply wasn't large enough to generate that-- nor would there be any good reason to waste resources making it so huge, since such planets could not possibly be inhabited.

1. What has N-space to do with that?

Hyperaccelerated matter doesn't react directly in the same manner as normally accelerated matter in N-space at the same speed; so a .05C observed rate of explosion, doesn't count for that speed in N-Space, and so Yavin wouldn't reach critical-mass if the Superlaser was aimed at Yavin's core.

2. The superlaser largely being a weapon that reacts with mass actually fits a good number of facts and requirements. It fits with the novelization, it fits with the fact that it's much, much less effective if it has to go through planetary shielding (although it still burns the planet), and it also fits with the fact that it couldn't shoot through a gas giant.
Not to say that the hyperspace related effects don't show up at all when the power is lower, and there clearly is a DET component to it, although not as high as argued on SDN and SWTC.

We don't know if there's any DET or M/E, or if it's pure energy-transfer via ambient-energy/entropy-field. But we do know that it involved hyper-acceleration.
So it couldn't shoot through a gas-giant-- what could? The term "gas giant" is misleading, since it's actually super-dense hydrogen and various compounds. The point is that it couldn't destroy Yavin-- and as state, it would take less energy to destroy Yavin than to destroy Alderaan or Yavin IV, if the DS was capable of applying it in the same way.
Finally, what 'does the novelization say about how the superlaser works?

KirkSkywalker wrote:Hyperaccelerated matter doesn't react directly in the same manner as normally accelerated matter in N-space at the same speed; so a .05C observed rate of explosion, doesn't count for that speed in N-Space, and so Yavin wouldn't reach critical-mass if the Superlaser was aimed at Yavin's core.

Please define n-space. The only notion I have it is limited to mathematics and I don't see how it's relevant.

We don't know if there's any DET or M/E, or if it's pure energy-transfer via ambient-energy/entropy-field. But we do know that it involved hyper-acceleration.
So it couldn't shoot through a gas-giant-- what could? The term "gas giant" is misleading, since it's actually super-dense hydrogen and various compounds. The point is that it couldn't destroy Yavin-- and as state, it would take less energy to destroy Yavin than to destroy Alderaan or Yavin IV, if the DS was capable of applying it in the same way.
Finally, what 'does the novelization say about how the superlaser works?

In general, the simplest explanations are preferable, and DET is met everyday and is simple, so as long as we can define observed effects as a result of DET, there is no reason to go look for more complicated explanation aside from mild curiosity.
Superlasers are described as basic beam weapons as well. One description even paints it as a beam involving neutrinos to some degree. Several superlasers have been built and they all were nothing more than heavy beam weapons.
Now, there appears to be scaling problems when we move from the Death Star to the Eclipse... and one way to explain this ratio between the sizes of the power cores of each system would be to argue that the Eclipse' superlaser has been revisited to increase its technobabble component, so it can still come with full thirds of the "firepower" of a Death Star when fired against unshielded planets.
A simple thing to do for you would be to read more about superlasers before continuing, at least become knowledgeable of a few essential quotes, as provided here:
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=711
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=541

Mr. Oragahn wrote:

KirkSkywalker wrote:Hyperaccelerated matter doesn't react directly in the same manner as normally accelerated matter in N-space at the same speed; so a .05C observed rate of explosion, doesn't count for that speed in N-Space, and so Yavin wouldn't reach critical-mass if the Superlaser was aimed at Yavin's core.

Please define n-space. The only notion I have it is limited to mathematics and I don't see how it's relevant.

N-space is normal space, where it takes 1 J to accerate 1kg of mass to 1m/s.In hyperspace it takes less, but when it re-enters N-space it still only has that same amount of energy.

We don't know if there's any DET or M/E, or if it's pure energy-transfer via ambient-energy/entropy-field. But we do know that it involved hyper-acceleration.
So it couldn't shoot through a gas-giant-- what could? The term "gas giant" is misleading, since it's actually super-dense hydrogen and various compounds. The point is that it couldn't destroy Yavin-- and as state, it would take less energy to destroy Yavin than to destroy Alderaan or Yavin IV, if the DS was capable of applying it in the same way.
Finally, what 'does the novelization say about how the superlaser works?

In general, the simplest explanations are preferable,

Only to the lazy. As I've already explained more than once, there's simply no way that the Superlaser could be a pure-energy weapon, since the observed rate of explosion in N-space indicated E+38J-- enough energy to vaporize the entire planet 10,000 times over (E+33J)-- and a billion times more than would blast every fragment out of the solar system (E+29J); since the planet was neither vaporized nor expelled, then there were hyperspace-acceleration factors at work-- consistent with the novelization's stated effects regarding the superlaser.

Likewise, the planet didn't explode like something hit by a beam-weapon on one side, but rather like something accelerated from the inside outwards equally in all directions-- like the planet's ambient heat was spread over a larger area outside of it for about 10 planetary diameters.
Finally, pure-energy beams don't produce visible green rays that combine at angles to produce one big green ray that has freaky properties which the little rays don't.

KirkSkywalker wrote:

Mr. Oragahn wrote:

KirkSkywalker wrote:We don't know if there's any DET or M/E, or if it's pure energy-transfer via ambient-energy/entropy-field. But we do know that it involved hyper-acceleration.
So it couldn't shoot through a gas-giant-- what could? The term "gas giant" is misleading, since it's actually super-dense hydrogen and various compounds. The point is that it couldn't destroy Yavin-- and as state, it would take less energy to destroy Yavin than to destroy Alderaan or Yavin IV, if the DS was capable of applying it in the same way.
Finally, what 'does the novelization say about how the superlaser works?

In general, the simplest explanations are preferable,

Only to the lazy.

No. It's the principle of parsimony, and in general Occam's Razor.
Laziness has nothing to do with that, since a simple explanation does not imply laziness and what matters is not how long it took to find an explanation but if it works.
A true lazy debator will simply not bother making sure that his theory works.

As I've already explained more than once, there's simply no way that the Superlaser could be a pure-energy weapon, since the observed rate of explosion in N-space indicated E+38J-- enough energy to vaporize the entire planet 10,000 times over (E+33J)-- and a billion times more than would blast every fragment out of the solar system (E+29J); since the planet was neither vaporized nor expelled, then there were hyperspace-acceleration factors at work-- consistent with the novelization's stated effects regarding the superlaser.

We can already see the mass collapsing; the EU has cases of singularities lasting after major superlaser related events. The best case being the destruction of the second DS over Endor.
There is ample evidence in Death Star that the station's capacitor hold enough energy to cause massive damage: not enough to blow up a planet, but enough to know that there's definitely a DET component to the superlaser.

On a sidenote, I find it funny that the Death Star I is officially called the DS-1 Orbital Battle Station in the Rebellion Era Campaign Guide, clearly suggesting that it's not moved like an upscaled starship. It's supported by the editions of the D20 Starships of the Galaxy.

Likewise, the planet didn't explode like something hit by a beam-weapon on one side, but rather like something accelerated from the inside outwards equally in all directions-- like the planet's ambient heat was spread over a larger area outside of it for about 10 planetary diameters.
Finally, pure-energy beams don't produce visible green rays that combine at angles to produce one big green ray that has freaky properties which the little rays don't.

Pure ray beams don't get bottled in space and ignore gravity either. Those combining beams were seen on the globe cannons on LAATs, and no one will claim it's an hyperspace related system.
The odd effects of the destruction of Alderaan need not the complete dismissal of the evidence of a DET component to the superlaser beam.

Contrary to what most SDNers like to argue for, Occam's Razor does not, at all, mean "the simplest explanation is always the best".
What it actually stands for is "the simplest explanation that takes into consideration all the facts and observations is the best one".
So sometimes, when taking in all the facts and observations, you cannot devise a simple explanation for what is seen...

Praeothmin wrote:Contrary to what most SDNers like to argue for, Occam's Razor does not, at all, mean "the simplest explanation is always the best".

Actually, Mike Wong writes that Occam's Razor states that "we must accept the simplest explanation as the correct one."

Of course that's untrue, since Occam's Razor simply means that the simplest explanation is most likely when all other factors are equal.

However with the DS, all other factors are NOT equal. As I've explained several times, for the planet to have exploded at .05C in N-space, would vaporize the planet 10,000 times over, and ejected it from the solar-system a billion times. It would also have exploded away from the beam.

But none of these happened; the planet exploded omnidirectionally, and remained in orbit as rubble. Thus an N-space explanation must be ruled out, leaving only a hyperspace explanation.

In Hyperspace, N-space distances become shorter; hower since heat always flows to a cooler surface, then a hyperaccelerated planetary mass into outer space, would also cause it to explode from entropy.

KirkSkywalker wrote:In Hyperspace, N-space distances become shorter; hower since heat always flows to a cooler surface, then a hyperaccelerated planetary mass into outer space, would also cause it to explode from entropy.

Please explain in greater details.

KirkSkywalker wrote:Actually, Mike Wong writes that Occam's Razor states that "we must accept the simplest explanation as the correct one."

That's not true: Occam's Razor

It is facinating that he describes it well, but uses it as KirkSkywalker describes, with a slight variant:
"Occam's Razor say I'm right and you're wrong, dumba**!"
That's a little bit more accurate... :)