Starfleet Jedi

Who would win in a battle between the Death Star and a Borg Cube? The Death Star is known to able to destroy planets with one full-powered blast of it's superlaser. This was shown in Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope, which is official canon material. The Death Star can also destroy capital ships, as shown in Star Wars Episode VI: Return of the Jedi, also known as official canon material. A Borg Cube, as shown in Star Trek: The Next Generation, could destroy entire fleets of Federation vessels. It was also claimed to be able to adapt to all types of enemy technology, although Mr. Wong has proven that to be not true.

This has been the subject of debates before. It can be simply summed up by saying that it all depends on what you think it is that the Death Star's superlaser does in order to blow up a planet. The Warsie wankers say it is a big turbolaser with raw 1e38 joules of energy delivered in a second's time.

The pro-Trek side says there is ample evidence from the movies as well as the EU, most recently the Death Star novel that says that while the beam does have a certain impressive DET component to it, it is nowhere near 1e32 J, never mind 1e38 J, and that the superlaser accomplishes it's planet-destroying via a chain-reaction.

The Borg, while they do have their limitations, have demonstrated a rather impressive ability to adapt to new weapons, dispite what Wong says. Species 8472 is unique among all others in that regard, and that is simply due to their unsual biology. It is highly doubtful that Stormtroopers or a blog-average Jedi or anything else in the Star Wars universe that we have seen in the canon can actually resist assimilation. Thus the Borg have a good chance of obtaining sufficent knowledge in advance that will help them adapt to SW technology.

The best Borg strategy would probably be to beam over thousands of drones inisde the Death Star and begin a mass assimilation campaign rather than try and brute force the battlestation with the cube ship alone.
-Mike

Mike DiCenso wrote:This has been the subject of debates before. It can be simply summed up by saying that it all depends on what you think it is that the Death Star's superlaser does in order to blow up a planet. The Warsie wankers say it is a big turbolaser with raw 1e38 joules of energy delivered in a second's time.

The pro-Trek side says there is ample evidence from the movies as well as the EU, most recently the Death Star novel that says that while the beam does have a certain impressive DET component to it, it is nowhere near 1e32 J, never mind 1e38 J, and that the superlaser accomplishes it's planet-destroying via a chain-reaction.

The Borg, while they do have their limitations, have demonstrated a rather impressive ability to adapt to new weapons, dispite what Wong says. Species 8472 is unique among all others in that regard, and that is simply due to their unsual biology. It is highly doubtful that Stormtroopers or a blog-average Jedi or anything else in the Star Wars universe that we have seen in the canon can actually resist assimilation. Thus the Borg have a good chance of obtaining sufficent knowledge in advance that will help them adapt to SW technology.

The best Borg strategy would probably be to beam over thousands of drones inisde the Death Star and begin a mass assimilation campaign rather than try and brute force the battlestation with the cube ship alone.
-Mike

So you are telling me that the Borg can adapt to SW technology? I doubt it. They wouldn't be able to beam drones aboard, due to jamming technology that disrupts transporters. Also, the Death Star superlaser is immensely powerful, and official canon Star Wars technological books gave estimates of it's power. Anyways, Borg cubes are smaller then planets, as the Death Star can destroy any physical object below the rank of a planet.

Youngla0450 wrote:
So you are telling me that the Borg can adapt to SW technology? I doubt it. They wouldn't be able to beam drones aboard, due to jamming technology that disrupts transporters. Also, the Death Star superlaser is immensely powerful, and official canon Star Wars technological books gave estimates of it's power. Anyways, Borg cubes are smaller then planets, as the Death Star can destroy any physical object below the rank of a planet.

The DS could not even jam communications between hostile ships of their own galaxy let alone a transporter that they have no clue about.

The super laser has only been seen hitting stationary ships and planets, a borg cube using full impulse and moving at close to c is not gonna get hit by it.

The cube would have beamed over a few thousand drones and adapted to Storm trooper weapons fire within minutes, after that and within a short time frame we would se a brand new and very LARGE borg sphere formerly called a death star.

Also a borg wearing all black and a homo-style cape but with his breathing fixed by nanoprobes, telling luke.......im your father you will be assimilated, oh and tell your sister shes havin it as well but the good news is the buns on the side of her head are gonna go......

Youngla0450 wrote: So you are telling me that the Borg can adapt to SW technology? I doubt it. They wouldn't be able to beam drones aboard, due to jamming technology that disrupts transporters.

Proof that such a capability exists? Transporters are an unknown technology in the SW universe, and it is equally unknown if Star Trek subspace communication can be effected by SW jamming.

Youngla0450 wrote:Also, the Death Star superlaser is immensely powerful, and official canon Star Wars technological books gave estimates of it's power. Anyways, Borg cubes are smaller then planets, as the Death Star can destroy any physical object below the rank of a planet.

By all means, then, please cite those estimates and their sources.
-Mike

My 2 cents:

Even if the DS1 isn't pure DET aren't we still talking about something in the high teratons? If I'm mistaken I of course apologise but shouldn't that be enough to vape your average borg cube?

Second the magnetic shield sheathing the death star should at least interfere with beam ins at least until the cube drains it/drops it.

Mike DiCenso wrote:This has been the subject of debates before. It can be simply summed up by saying that it all depends on what you think it is that the Death Star's superlaser does in order to blow up a planet. The Warsie wankers say it is a big turbolaser with raw 1e38 joules of energy delivered in a second's time.

The pro-Trek side says there is ample evidence from the movies as well as the EU, most recently the Death Star novel that says that while the beam does have a certain impressive DET component to it, it is nowhere near 1e32 J, never mind 1e38 J, and that the superlaser accomplishes it's planet-destroying via a chain-reaction.

It's not a pro-Trek thing. It's just a non-SWanker one.
The true firepower of it is still way above anything a Cube can tank. A couple of low powered shots, on the highest end of their effects, can still boil away a small sea.
The defenses of the Death Star still remain powerful enough to destroy a fleet of warships, including any fleet comprising at least one super SD.
The only thing that will make a difference is if the Cube, for a reason or another, decides to attack from a good distance, far enough to stay out of the effective range of SW weapons. That said, the sheer concentration of firepower still means that by virtue of fire density, the overall effective range of the battle station's defenses is increased.
It includes a wide variety of weapons (turbolaser batteries, charged-particle blasters, magnetic railguns, proton torpedo banks, ion cannons, and a host of other protective devices), plus fighters and a couple of other special crafts). It's entirely possible that due to the size of the battle station, some of these weapons might be of the largest size. We know that some railguns, ion cannons and turbolaser batteries are known for their greater range, although they require the target to be moving on a predictable path. That said, Cubes' approach is most simple and straight.
There's also the fact that without proper information, the Cube won't know that the battle station has one main weapon array, which you can be sure will be quickly pointed at the Cube.
As it is, the Death Star has all the available power to squash the Borg Cube like the annoying insect it is. It simply doesn't stand a chance.

Now, as you suggested, the Borg could begin beaming their troops. However, the success of that single acceptable solution hinges on several factors:

1. That they don't get smocked out of the sky before they even think about beaming drones.
2. That they can beam drones through the magnetic shielding.
3. That they beam enough of them.
4. That they adapt fast enough.
5. That they manage to take control of the station and spread before the Dark Lord of the Sith on board doesn't destroy them one by one.

The Cube will be destroyed the moment it fails to identify itself according to any Imperial information and maintains its course. Of course if they hail the Empire, manage to send a message in basic that's intelligible, and menace the Empire, they're dead right there.
All I have seen shows that the Borg really do it in small numbers first, especially when dealing with new tech. They generally put a finger in the water first, and eventually send more Cubes if needed, incrementally. They beam only a few, they try to scan whatever they can, and they're slow. They fall to simple fire in droves before actually coming up with a defense. Besides, if they don't beam anywhere near a sector security cell, the Imperial forces can isolate the remaining few drones.
Finally, with the help of the Force, Vader will have a happy time hacking them and squishing their bits.

sonofccn wrote:My 2 cents:

Even if the DS1 isn't pure DET aren't we still talking about something in the high teratons? If I'm mistaken I of course apologise but shouldn't that be enough to vape your average borg cube?

Second the magnetic shield sheathing the death star should at least interfere with beam ins at least until the cube drains it/drops it.

Just a little point. As the Warsies like to wank for the Death Star shields, so too can we wank for the Borg shields since we saw a Borg cube survive taking a fraction of an exploding planet's energy in VOY's "Scorpion, Part 1", while two cubes trailing just a few dozen kilometers behind it were destroyed. We can potentially derive a high and low end to Borg shields from that incident. Although the cube ships are much smaller in surface area than the first Death Star, they appear to have been much closer to the exploding Borg planet than the Imperial battlestation was to Alderaan. The trick is determining how close the Borg cubes were to their exploding planet when the shockwave reached them.

Assuming the Borg cubes were at most 75,000 km out when the shockwave hit (the same minimum distance as the Death Star from Alderaan), then assume 1e32 J for the explosion of the Borg planet and you would get no less than 5,658,842,421,045,995,905,241.46 J (1.34 teratons) per square kilometer. For a 3 km cube ship that's 9 square km x 1.34 teratons = 12.06 teratons. This estimate is highly conservative given that the Borg ships appear to have been much closer to their planet than 75,000 km and the energy per square km will only go up as a function of the inverse square law.
-Mike

Mr. Orgahn is right. The Death Star simply has too many weapons. Turbolaser batteries, ion cannons, charged particle-blasters, railguns, proton torpodo banks, heavy-turbolasers, etc. Plus, all of these pale in comparsion to the superlaser. It has been demonstrated to destroy capital ships and planets. Judging by the superlaser preparing to fire on Yavin IV, which was a moon, it can also destroy moons. Remember, the Death Star destroyed Alderaan, according to Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope, and Despayre, the construction site, according to "Star Wars: X-wing" official game and the official novel "Death Star".

Mike DiCenso wrote:

sonofccn wrote:My 2 cents:

Even if the DS1 isn't pure DET aren't we still talking about something in the high teratons? If I'm mistaken I of course apologise but shouldn't that be enough to vape your average borg cube?

Second the magnetic shield sheathing the death star should at least interfere with beam ins at least until the cube drains it/drops it.

Just a little point. As the Warsies like to wank for the Death Star shields, so too can we wank for the Borg shields since we saw a Borg cube survive taking a fraction of an exploding planet's energy in VOY's "Scorpion, Part 1", while two cubes trailing just a few dozen kilometers behind it were destroyed. We can potentially derive a high and low end to Borg shields from that incident. Although the cube ships are much smaller in surface area than the first Death Star, they appear to have been much closer to the exploding Borg planet than the Imperial battlestation was to Alderaan. The trick is determining how close the Borg cubes were to their exploding planet when the shockwave reached them.

Assuming the Borg cubes were at most 75,000 km out when the shockwave hit (the same minimum distance as the Death Star from Alderaan), then assume 1e32 J for the explosion of the Borg planet and you would get no less than 5,658,842,421,045,995,905,241.46 J (1.34 teratons) per square kilometer. For a 3 km cube ship that's 9 square km x 1.34 teratons = 12.06 teratons. This estimate is highly conservative given that the Borg ships appear to have been much closer to their planet than 75,000 km and the energy per square km will only go up as a function of the inverse square law.
-Mike

On the other hand, the Cube that got a lock on the Voyager got hit by molten rock traveling at less than 10 km/s and was taking severe damage.
The Cubes also explode when they get hit by the milky translucent surface of the expanding sphere of doom.
In reality, in the 3D software, the planet was probably barely bigger than a dozen Cubes.
It's just the crappy way they "shoot" such scenes. It's fine when there is no interaction between the ship and whatever would come from the planet. But when it does you can appreciate the messed up scales. You have the same problem in that episode when Voyager is hit by a rock projected by a nearby so called planet's explosion. Scales and velocity of ejecta don't match with the expected speeds.

Mr. Oragahn wrote: On the other hand, the Cube that got a lock on the Voyager got hit by molten rock traveling at less than 10 km/s and was taking severe damage.
The Cubes also explode when they get hit by the milky translucent surface of the expanding sphere of doom.
In reality, in the 3D software, the planet was probably barely bigger than a dozen Cubes.
It's just the crappy way they "shoot" such scenes. It's fine when there is no interaction between the ship and whatever would come from the planet. But when it does you can appreciate the messed up scales. You have the same problem in that episode when Voyager is hit by a rock projected by a nearby so called planet's explosion. Scales and velocity of ejecta don't match with the expected speeds

.

I don't see what this has to do with anything. The Borg cubeship's shields start taking some damage not from the huge and modestely dense spray of molten rock, but from the intital attack by a passing S8472, and it's shields are not completely knocked down until the energy shockwave hits it. You can see the proper order of the scenein this video here (watch from 6:43 onward). The scaling problem has always been an issue in SF shows and movies. Stargate, for example, with the Daedalus from "Echoes" with the slow moving column of solar flare material that hits it's shields.

What you are bringing up are two different things; kinetic energy versus EM energy resistance. In both Star and Star Trek as well as other SF shows, those are often two seperate things. But in this case, the Borg ship held up against the molten debris spray just fine.
-Mike

Mr. Oragahn wrote: Scales and velocity of ejecta don't match with the expected speeds.

Neither does Alderaan's explosion, which didn't stop Warsies from using it to calculate the speed of the ejecta to obtain firepower figures... :)

It doesn't matter too much as Mr. Oragahn is wrong about the scene in question. The Borg ship doesn't take damage from the debris spray at all as far as can be told. Incidently, 10 km/sec is slightly faster velocity than that required for orbital velocity on a planet the size of Earth.
-Mike

Youngla0450 wrote:Mr. Orgahn is right. The Death Star simply has too many weapons. Turbolaser batteries, ion cannons, charged particle-blasters, railguns, proton torpodo banks, heavy-turbolasers, etc. Plus, all of these pale in comparsion to the superlaser. It has been demonstrated to destroy capital ships and planets. Judging by the superlaser preparing to fire on Yavin IV, which was a moon, it can also destroy moons. Remember, the Death Star destroyed Alderaan, according to Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope, and Despayre, the construction site, according to "Star Wars: X-wing" official game and the official novel "Death Star".

None of that means anything if they cannot penetrate the shields of a Borg vessel. While the superlaser probably can do it, they TL and ion cannon batteries will not be able to penetrate the teraton shields of a Borg cube, especially if the Borg have captured Imperial or other SW ships before encountering the Death Star, and have adapted accordingly.
-Mike

There are many ways a DS could blast a Borg cube however we know how the borg operate and that the first cube is mearly the first of many and while il not get into the ins and outs of if they are capable of adapting to SW weapons fire the fact is that they have shown the ability to adapt in other ways regarding tactics ect.

One cube?, yea i suppose it could easily toasted considering the Borgs rather odd way of opening a dialog then sitting still, but ultimatly the DS gets a hint of green in its colouring and the Borg collective gets a new and very large sphere.