'sploding 'steroids : gasoline rocks :D

[Mr. Oragahn]

Yeah well, there it is, one of those ridiculous SFJN claims, again.

This time, this is resulting from an ongoing discussion at SBC on turbolasers that devolved into a meticulous analysis of a peculiar EU claim in regards to the TESB asteroid scenes.

As such, I just found it more and more irrepressible to post my latest brain fart here.

Basically, the point is rather simple. The Hoth asteroid field is surprisingly dense for a field that's so far from Hoth itself (the novelization is quite explicit on that, Hoth is so far that it's not distinguishable from the background's stars). It's nothing like our main belt.

Still, that's not what I'm going to argue over here, although I also had to point that.

What the matter is... is that I haven't seen one person insistingly ask why those asteroids exploded and burned in space so easily.

Quoting a piece of the exchange between me and Leo1/Vympel:

Of course those asteroids had a tendency to spontaneously turn themselves into balls of fire the moment they'd hit another small rock or something else; a thing I think the EU should have been smart to point, perhaps those asteroids being full of volatile stuff or something, which would put a new spin onto the vaporized asteroid craze btw.

Except they're explicitly not full of 'volatile stuff', so lets move on from yet another attempt by you to muddy the waters, introduce uncertainty, confuse the issue, and generally try and get as far away as possible from straightforward interpetation of obviously clear evidence.

A 10 m wide iron asteroids masses 4121 tonnes if it's considered a sphere. It takes 1.3 KT (5.439 e12 J] to melt it and 7.5 KT to vaporize it.
At 4121 tonnes, it needs to impact at a relative speed of 1,624.7 m/s in order to release a purely theoretical and ideal energy of 1.3 KT, and that's just to melt it.
Which as far as flashing asteroids are concerned, is waaaay above anything observed. I won't even insist on the debris that keeps burning after an impact between two small asteroids, or that miserable small asteroid that ponderously drifts into the crater of a much bigger asteroid (although that one isn't that big), and slams into the curved wall, which generates a luminous red flash (but it's partially obscured).

Is it silly to talk asteroids containing some kind of volatile ore? Perhaps. At least it would be extremely unusual.
Now does it fit with what is seen on screen? Hell yes, far more than claiming they're mere lumps of iron or rock and nothing else.

Of course, exploding asteroids... that's amusing. We now might reconsider that famous TESB scene where an ISD supposedly vaporizes several small asteroids.

Then, some pictures.

• 1. A very small piece of rock slowly lands inside the crater of a much bigger asteroid (roughly 4 times the Millennium Falcon's width I'd say), and produces a red flash.
  
  
• 2. A TIE hits an asteroid that's slightly bigger than itself. While the pilot was ejected and his suit burning as well, it's understandable since it's a material that could burn. But iron?
  
  
• 3. A small piece of rock is intercepted by the TIE. The left "solar" panel is hit at the base. The small piece of rock definitely disappears in a blob of blue energy.
  
  
• 4. An impact between two asteroids of different size. The relative velocity of the smaller one that hits the bigger one is simply too low to even reach fusion of materials. Yet both asteroids blow up in some impressive way.
  
  
• 5. A collision between same sized small rocks. The explosion is magistral, once again, and results into what could be called a fireball, the piece of rock leaving a fiery blue trail. The Millennium Falcon flies above it.
  
  
• 6. Another fiery asteroid passes by, seen through the starboard windows of the Millennium Falcon's cockpit.
  
  

Notice that the flashes of light are confirmed in the novelization.

So then, we can look at asteroids both being shot down and impacting against an ISD's hull.

• 

(The video has been shrunk by the image host btw.)

We can also appreciate how some asteroids seem to come to stop dead in their tracks, before being shot down. I suppose that they were stupefied, shocked perhaps. Say... petrified?

I still don't know if this is supposed to be serious, but it seriously pees all over those vaporized asteroid claims gleefully.

[Praeothmin]

While the two examples with Ties hitting rocks can easily be explained by the fact that the vaporization energy came from the Tie and the fire on the rock from the Tie's "desiel" fuel spilling all over the rock, the asteroid to asteroid impacts are not possible if the asteroids are indeed just nickel-iron items.

Isn't it funny that, when the visuals contradict their arguments, Warsies will do what they claim Trekkies did with TDiC in DS9, and ignore the visuals or invent idiotic arguments to explain it away?
Does that mean we can now also ignore visuals from TDiC and take the claims at face value?
:)

[Mike DiCenso]

Oh no! You'll now be seen as a disciple of Darkstar since those observations are very similar to ones he made many years ago for as yet still unfinished article on turbolaser firepower. Oh wait, for some reason they already think that, dispite you being pro-SG franchise, not Star Trek. ;-)
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

Do you notice how only Disciples of Wong (or Wong Cockgoblins, a variation of the name they so affectionately gave people who disagreed with them), or those who have been at one time, think that people who argue against SW automatically agree with everyone of 2046's conclusions?
:)

[Khas]

Do you notice how only Disciples of Wong (or Wong Cockgoblins, a variation of the name they so affectionately gave people who disagreed with them), or those who have been at one time, think that people who argue against SW automatically agree with everyone of 2046's conclusions?
:)

So, you could say that the Xeelee, Time Lords, or Culture could beat the Galactic Empire, and they'll call you a "Disciple of Darkstar"?

Sheesh. I bet they think: "Nothing can beat Star Wars, because it's Star Wars!"

The Wongites probably are just trying to stay in childhood, because, well, SW has clearly become a kid's franchise.

And what's funny is that if there is any SDNer looking at this comment, they'll fly back to SDN and piss, bitch, and moan about it, and prove my child hypothesis.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Do you notice how only Disciples of Wong (or Wong Cockgoblins, a variation of the name they so affectionately gave people who disagreed with them), or those who have been at one time, think that people who argue against SW automatically agree with everyone of 2046's conclusions?
:)

So, you could say that the Xeelee, Time Lords, or Culture could beat the Galactic Empire, and they'll call you a "Disciple of Darkstar"?

No. Their pseudo-subtle trick was to claim they were objective because they admitted the Galactic Empire would be defeated by X or Y.
X or Y being formidable foes, of the like of WH40K's Imperium (which is given firepower figures which are just even crazier than what SW gets in general), the Culture, the Xelee, etc.

Sheesh. I bet they think: "Nothing can beat Star Wars, because it's Star Wars!"

"They" never said that, but their threshold is not shared by geeks outside of their little own circle though, that's all.
Eventually it would have been fine if it had only been a question of disagreement and they had focused their intelligence on arguments than vindictive campaigns and personal attacks, but as you can on this forum, there's lots of stuff they left out because they knew it simply was not possible to mesh such data with their unique broken and outdated vision of SW.
That's also why by now they consider to have won, and pretty much walled themselves up. The word you would probably be looking for here is pathetic I'd guess.
Mind you, that's pretty much what happened with rabid Fivers as well. Now they're populating and decaying in the B5tech forum, repeating the silly stuff that's on the website's pages. They don't try to come out of the woods cause they know they'll pushed back into their secular lair in the blink of an eye.

The Wongites probably are just trying to stay in childhood, because, well, SW has clearly become a kid's franchise.

That's not true.
It surely has evolved in a way that's not exactly what I used to imagine in the early 90s for example, and it's understandable how they could be repelled. They don't even seem to talk about the CGI stuff much.

And what's funny is that if there is any SDNer looking at this comment, they'll fly back to SDN and piss, bitch, and moan about it, and prove my child hypothesis.

I don't think so. See, they don't even give a rat's ass about that silly weakypedia of theirs anymore: It's quite a sum of their cranky inane arguments and ad-hominem pages.
Go to the forums, and perhaps there's the old timers who will crawl out of their hole if you ever dare arguing, with evidence, that many things they believe in is erroneous. Eventually you may make Wong move his butt and drop a petulant comment or two, but that's about it. They are quite boring in fact. Their non "ASVS" stuff is more... entertaining, if we could say that.

[Mike DiCenso]

So, you could say that the Xeelee, Time Lords, or Culture could beat the Galactic Empire, and they'll call you a "Disciple of Darkstar"?

Sheesh. I bet they think: "Nothing can beat Star Wars, because it's Star Wars!"

No, believe it or not, most of the Warsies/Saxtonites don't think that the Galactic Empire is advanced enough to take on those three superpowers, at least not in a straight up fight. However there have been a few attempts on SB.com that I've seen to wank up SW firepower for common capital ships to where the could be in a position to do at least take on the Culture. One such threat involved wanking SSD firepower to where it could reduce the Earth's moon to rubble or some such nonsense. Short of Palpatine and other Force users gaining Q-like powers, they have no hope whatsoever of fighting the Xeele, never mind the Xeele's nemesis, the Photino Birds.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

It surely has evolved in a way that's not exactly what I used to imagine in the early 90s for example, and it's understandable how they could be repelled. They don't even seem to talk about the CGI stuff much.

Of course they don't talk about the TCW series; it's a major blow to their carefully crafted religion by showing once again that George Lucas doesn't give two rats' asses about the EU or ICS or Dr. Saxton, and that his Star Wars in the final analysis is the only one.

And what's funny is that if there is any SDNer looking at this comment, they'll fly back to SDN and piss, bitch, and moan about it, and prove my child hypothesis.

I don't think so. See, they don't even give a rat's ass about that silly weakypedia of theirs anymore: It's quite a sum of their cranky inane arguments and ad-hominem pages.

Go to the forums, and perhaps there's the old timers who will crawl out of their hole if you ever dare arguing, with evidence, that many things they believe in is erroneous. Eventually you may make Wong move his butt and drop a petulant comment or two, but that's about it. They are quite boring in fact. Their non "ASVS" stuff is more... entertaining, if we could say that.

Then how do you explain the rabid attack dogs that patrol SB.com, like Point 45 or Leo1/Vympel? They still have influence outside SDN where they have control, which is why most of them will not come to SFJN, and to a lesser extent, the ASVS forum. There are no mods that will come to their rescue and close threads, and or ban opponents who dare to question the holy writings of the Saxton authored ICS.
-Mike

[The Dude]

No, I think most are just plain bored with it (I mean how long can you maintain such an inane hobby) or moved on with life. I look at my time spent VS debating as time that was frankly fucking wasted. You know how many books I could have read, or models I could have built.

Though it was kinda fun if you were drunk to watch certain people lose their cool.

Edit: Something more pertinent to your thread though; I briefly saw an article about an asteroid collision they captured on camera, it apparently went up like a nuke.

Unfortunately when I went back to SDN yesterday to look for it, I couldn't find it.

[Mike DiCenso]

Is this the event you're refering to? There is no "nuke"-like effect here, just the immediate aftermath showing a curious X-shaped trail of debris.
-Mike

[The Dude]

Yeah, thats probably it. I don't remember much of the article other then the thread title and some vague impressions from speed reading it.

[Mike DiCenso]

You might also be thinking of the Deep Impact imagery in which the 370 kg impactor made a noticeably bright flash when it struck the surface of 9P/Tempel's nucleus with the kinetic energy equivalent to 5 tons of TNT.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

It surely has evolved in a way that's not exactly what I used to imagine in the early 90s for example, and it's understandable how they could be repelled. They don't even seem to talk about the CGI stuff much.

Of course they don't talk about the TCW series; it's a major blow to their carefully crafted religion by showing once again that George Lucas doesn't give two rats' asses about the EU or ICS or Dr. Saxton, and that his Star Wars in the final analysis is the only one.

I think it's possible they also consider TCW to be total crap. Personally, I find to interest in watching season 2, the first one having totally saturated me. I don't even see their point, I don't give a shit about Emokin/Analkid Skywanker.
I would have watched it if, first, it would have been done without the cartoon style, if it had taken its time to tell good stories over several episodes, and finally if it had picked another period, focusing on some other people: for example Count Dooku as a Jedi, his fall towards the dark side (much more interesting considering the guy, his age, his track record) and how Qui-Gon Jinn kept pace with him. That would have been much more interesting. With Palpatine around, sending Maul do some dirty shit, and at some point both Maul and Dooku meeting in some epic season finale, which would trouble Dooku as he'd understand that the Sith really were back, but at that time he'd be too detached from the Jedi order to come back and warn them. The problem would be keeping the secret to QGJ, and there Dooku would go off tracks and below the radar.

Truth said, I don't care much about Oh-be-whine and Yoduh. They're just too bland.
The former one is a looser who didn't even see one drop of potential redemption in Vader and screwed up royally. He's also a very empty character and a Mary Sue of his own kind.
The later has a shitty combat style that veers too much on the hectic Sonic side to be enjoyable, and was so wise that the all encompassing lesson he gave to Luke on Dagobah was nothing else but an rip off of what Qui-Gon Jinn already knew about the Force years before him. If anything they're extremely tragical characters, with huge flaws which we have discovered with the three prequels and that's about it, we don't need more.
TCWS is only milking, with some very lame scenarii at times.

Then how do you explain the rabid attack dogs that patrol SB.com, like Point 45 or Leo1/Vympel? They still have influence outside SDN where they have control, which is why most of them will not come to SFJN, and to a lesser extent, the ASVS forum. There are no mods that will come to their rescue and close threads, and or ban opponents who dare to question the holy writings of the Saxton authored ICS.
-Mike

I don't think Point45 has any influence at all.
He could be a very clever sockpuppet but I don't buy that. He just has too much style in his own crappiness. He only gets bonuses because he's a warsie and despite the stupidity of his arguments, with most mods being warsies, he gets some free passes despite polluting entire threads and pissing off many members, all groups concerned.
For example, Kyosanim is a trektard of the worst kind, the Trek equivalent of IQ45, but he does get enormous leeway as well. I think they enjoy trolls no matter what, it's part of the picture and brings life to the forums.

Notice that for some very bizarre cosmic reason that transcends logic, 45 and Kyo have never argued against each other, even when both posted in the same thread multiple times.
Most people probably recognized that would be worse than the CERN's black hole, or even dividing by zero.

The issue is that it's a problem that when arguments against SW start to make sense, they become more serious about the moderation against a particular side, you know... but again, if you remember the degree of freedom three or four years ago, there's been an enormous and positive evolution nonetheless.

Leo1 continues, probably because he simply likes versus debating and SBC is much more alive than SDN on this, and he may have much more courage than SDN's pro-SW debaters. Wong himself couldn't stand up to most of his nonsense on his own website, although it proved to be useful for a good number of reasons. Leo's positions of late prove he's also more open minded. Yes, he's also in good terms with SBC's versus forum mods, so he can also keep maintaining some silly or outrageous claims, and have Thanatos or CPL come to his rescue from time to time, as I highlighted in the "other websites" section.
He's a bit like Kane here, minus the support from the mods.
Liking it or not, I've seen Leo1 make concessions over time, even on topics such as firepower, espousing some more moderate positions that would be seen as silly at SDN.
A proof being that he said the equivalent of "fine by me" when I argued that a snowspeeder's high end firepower, at best, was in the low three digits MJ. Of course the curiosity is that Leo1 is a mod at SDN. It's possible that if he had not been so deeply tied to the pillars of SDN, he may have moved even further from Wong's mantra.

You could also add General Schatten and Lord Vespasian, from the top of my head, plus some other people who appear from time to time at SDN as well although they seem more active at SBC.

[Mike DiCenso]

I don't think Point45 has any influence at all.
He could be a very clever sockpuppet but I don't buy that. He just has too much style in his own crappiness. He only gets bonuses because he's a warsie and despite the stupidity of his arguments, with most mods being warsies, he gets some free passes despite polluting entire threads and pissing off many members, all groups concerned.
For example, Kyosanim is a trektard of the worst kind, the Trek equivalent of IQ45, but he does get enormous leeway as well. I think they enjoy trolls no matter what, it's part of the picture and brings life to the forums.

Notice that for some very bizarre cosmic reason that transcends logic, 45 and Kyo have never argued against each other, even when both posted in the same thread multiple times.

Are you sure that they (Kyosanim and Point45) are not one in the same same? After all, it's not that hard for someone with a bit of talent and imagination to make a sock puppet account and change "style", even to grammar or spell badly, if need be to throw people off.

The issue is that it's a problem that when arguments against SW start to make sense, they become more serious about the moderation against a particular side, you know... but again, if you remember the degree of freedom three or four years ago, there's been an enormous and positive evolution nonetheless.

Leo1 continues, probably because he simply likes versus debating and SBC is much more alive than SDN on this, and he may have much more courage than SDN's pro-SW debaters. Wong himself couldn't stand up to most of his nonsense on his own website, although it proved to be useful for a good number of reasons. Leo's positions of late prove he's also more open minded. Yes, he's also in good terms with SBC's versus forum mods, so he can also keep maintaining some silly or outrageous claims, and have Thanatos or CPL come to his rescue from time to time, as I highlighted in the "other websites" section.

He's a bit like Kane here, minus the support from the mods.
Liking it or not, I've seen Leo1 make concessions over time, even on topics such as firepower, espousing some more moderate positions that would be seen as silly at SDN.
A proof being that he said the equivalent of "fine by me" when I argued that a snowspeeder's high end firepower, at best, was in the low three digits MJ. Of course the curiosity is that Leo1 is a mod at SDN. It's possible that if he had not been so deeply tied to the pillars of SDN, he may have moved even further from Wong's mantra.

You could also add General Schatten and Lord Vespasian, from the top of my head, plus some other people who appear from time to time at SDN as well although they seem more active at SBC.

Oh Vympel has his rare moments of rationality. But I think they were far more frequent on the old Strek forum where it was more visibly enforced by Pro-Trek admin and mods and he could not fall back on the tired old tirades and mantras of the ICS and EU in general, and so he had to actually work to make his case.

That being said, if he was really into Versus debating and wanted a purer, more objective form of it, he could come here. But I doubt he will since he has a tremendous advantage in being able to fall back on mods for help over at SB.com.

Kane I give credit to for just having the balls to show up here and debate without any expectation that anyone will come to his rescue.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

Vympel would not want to come here. He'd probably have to deal with even more assault on his positions than he does at SBC when facing people who come from here or anyone else who doesn't agree with him.

45 and Kyo, if they're two puppets of the same body, they're clever ones. I wouldn't dismiss the idea though, for the reasons I listed: as being respective rabid fans of their own universe, ST and SW, they had all the reasons to argue against each other, yet never ever did, and they're both given an impossible amount of leeway as well.
Globally I don't pay much attention to 45's stupid points, and I generally snipe Kyo's posts since he's just spouting as much crap and can't even wrap his head around simple principles, the latest in date hinging on a question of 3D perspective, and if there's something he's certainly not going to school me on is precisely that topic.