The Borg & Solar Flares

[l33telboi]

No. The scout cube is clearly smaller in dimensions, as well as had only 5 drones on board. The Decent ship is a big unknown. We next see it in VOY's "Scorpion, Part II" on a readout display, and Seven of Nine describes it as a "multi-kinetic neutronic mine". Go figure.

Hmm. That would mean this in no way is indicatory of Borg ships then. The first time i heard of the 1MT argument i was under the clear impression that we were talking about a Borg Cube. Which is also why i was so eager to get a calc on this going. Figuring out what kind of damage per second the cube would have sustained inside the corona would not only have been easy, but because of the surface area, it would also have been quite high.

I made this point earlier in the thread. The visuals clearly in and in all ways contradict the character dialog. So take it as you will. If you take the character dialog over the visuals, then the star's flare stayed in an extremely concentrated form for up to a million km from the star's surface, and travelled at nearly the speed of c!
-Mike

Yeah, i saw that. But you also mentioned something about the photosphere as well. The Enterprise clearly didn't go that deep. But given the on screen evidence, i'd say it would be safe to say it was indeed inside the chromosphere, and the "Borg" ship was holding position outside of it.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Hmm. That would mean this in no way is indicatory of Borg ships then. The first time i heard of the 1MT argument i was under the clear impression that we were talking about a Borg Cube. Which is also why i was so eager to get a calc on this going. Figuring out what kind of damage per second the cube would have sustained inside the corona would not only have been easy, but because of the surface area, it would also have been quite high.

I'll note for the record that all Star Trek ships seem capable of sustaining normal operations in the corona itself for great lengths of time. It's only actual immersion in the visible plasma that makes a difference; the corona is very thin. For that matter, the chromosphere isn't very thick either, and is really the atmosphere of a sun more than the body. In the case of our Sun, the chromosphere is bright red, mostly transparent, irregular, and can't be seen with the naked eye outside of an eclipse. It's also a very thin layer in terms of solar geography - thousands of km - although very thick compared to the E-D. For the E-D not to be visible as it occludes a portion of the sun, it needs to be within the photosphere itself.

DITL scales the "Descent" ship as being roughly 4.5x1.2x1.4 km, i.e., having approximately half the surface area and a quarter the volume of a 28 km^3 (55 km^2) cube. It was also not hooked up to the Collective, if that makes any difference to you.

Yeah, i saw that. But you also mentioned something about the photosphere as well. The Enterprise clearly didn't go that deep. But given the on screen evidence, i'd say it would be safe to say it was indeed inside the chromosphere, and the "Borg" ship was holding position outside of it.

Although the chromosphere would probably not even be visible (contrast issues) in the shots seen, the hull temperatures indicate this is not a very Sun-like star.

The hull was heated to 12,000 degrees C, and was still - IIRC - rising. Our Sun's photosphere is only around 5500 C, and an object placed within it would reach thermal equilibrium at 5500 C as a result.

[l33telboi]

The hull was heated to 12,000 degrees C, and was still - IIRC - rising. Our Sun's photosphere is only around 5500 C, and an object placed within it would reach thermal equilibrium at 5500 C as a result.

I didn't pay that much attention to that. Those figures are more suited to a B Class star. But the coloration is clearly not blue. Weird. Could it be friction against the hull? Nah, the heat is still to much.

I also understood that a stars Corona is a lot hotter then the photosphere, but it would also have a lower density. Could that play a part in the discrepancy?

[Jedi Master Spock]

The hull was heated to 12,000 degrees C, and was still - IIRC - rising. Our Sun's photosphere is only around 5500 C, and an object placed within it would reach thermal equilibrium at 5500 C as a result.

I didn't pay that much attention to that. Those figures are more suited to a B Class star. But the coloration is clearly not blue. Weird. Could it be friction against the hull? Nah, the heat is still to much.

I also understood that a stars Corona is a lot hotter then the photosphere, but it would also have a lower density. Could that play a part in the discrepancy?

For the most part, stars are really just whitish.

And unfortunately, it couldn't really play a part. The corona is simply not dense enough, and the forces that cause it to become so blazing hot don't come into play in the photosphere. Near the photosphere, the chromosphere also has a similar temperature - actually, temperature declines briefly as you go out from the "surface," then climbs back up.

We could say that the shield doesn't let out as much radiation as it lets in, but that doesn't make much sense; we could also say that the E-D is actually getting soaked with lots of radiation from deeper within the star on frequencies that the photosphere doesn't really absorb; we could say the star is just hotter than our Sun, for whatever reason; we could throw our hands up and throw the dialogue out; we could assume that there's some localized activity causing that particular area to be hotter at that particular time.

Frankly, I'm of the opinion it's simplest to just say that the E-D is taking a bath in somewhat hotter plasma than you might guess from just the visuals. You can use the 12,000 C figure (at which point the E-D's shield had dropped to ~60%, IIRC) to take a good guess at how much energy the E-D soaked at what rate, but it's really not going to help us much with figuring out the Borg ship's toughness.

[SailorSaturn13]

The hull was heated to 12,000 degrees C, and was still - IIRC - rising. Our Sun's photosphere is only around 5500 C, and an object placed within it would reach thermal equilibrium at 5500 C as a result.

I didn't pay that much attention to that. Those figures are more suited to a B Class star. But the coloration is clearly not blue. Weird. Could it be friction against the hull? Nah, the heat is still to much.

I also understood that a stars Corona is a lot hotter then the photosphere, but it would also have a lower density. Could that play a part in the discrepancy?

For the most part, stars are really just whitish.

And unfortunately, it couldn't really play a part. The corona is simply not dense enough, and the forces that cause it to become so blazing hot don't come into play in the photosphere. Near the photosphere, the chromosphere also has a similar temperature - actually, temperature declines briefly as you go out from the "surface," then climbs back up.

We could say that the shield doesn't let out as much radiation as it lets in, but that doesn't make much sense; we could also say that the E-D is actually getting soaked with lots of radiation from deeper within the star on frequencies that the photosphere doesn't really absorb; we could say the star is just hotter than our Sun, for whatever reason; we could throw our hands up and throw the dialogue out; we could assume that there's some localized activity causing that particular area to be hotter at that particular time.

Frankly, I'm of the opinion it's simplest to just say that the E-D is taking a bath in somewhat hotter plasma than you might guess from just the visuals. You can use the 12,000 C figure (at which point the E-D's shield had dropped to ~60%, IIRC) to take a good guess at how much energy the E-D soaked at what rate, but it's really not going to help us much with figuring out the Borg ship's toughness.

Sun's Corona is hotter - about 12000 degrees due to magnetic effects, and they would affect a metal ship more than hydrogen.

So dialogue makes perfext sence: before MF shields, they were affected by magnetic heating and got 12000 degree hot - as stuff in the corona. After this , we STILL see solar radiation is going through - but it is unable to heat the ship more then to 6000 degrees, as the sun is only so hot. Everything pasts, so we must assume they WERE in the corona and the surface was BELOW them - so much is clear from later.

[l33telboi]

Sun's Corona is hotter - about 12000 degrees due to magnetic effects, and they would affect a metal ship more than hydrogen.

Well yeah, but a corona is also a lot less dense. Which translates to heat on hull. Though admittedly, i know little about said topic.

And on a related matter, how many kg of plasma would there be per cubic meter? I know it would be hard to figure out the exact dimensions of the vessel in question. But a minimum value could at least be established.

[Mike DiCenso]

Since we're on the subject of how much solar radiation starships can handle, here's a reminder from the Star Wars EU "Heir to the Empire" stories of what an ISD can handle:

" 'The problems will be minimal,' Thrawn said with easy confidence. 'If the jump is done with sufficient accuracy, the Judicator will be in direct sunlight for only a few minutes each way. Its hull can certainly handle that much. We'll simply need to take a few days first to shield the viewports and remove external sensors and communications equipment. [ "Heir to the Empire", p. 101 ]

"'Nkllon's a superhot planet - way too close to its sun for any normal ship to get to without getting part of its hull peeled off.'" [ "Heir to the Empire", p. 134 ]

"The Star Destroyer itself didn't worry him - if Lando's descriptions of the sunlight's intensity were right, the big ship itself was probably helpless by now, its sensors and maybe even a fair amount of its armament vaporized right off its hull." [ "Heir to the Empire", p. 145 ]

"'Captain Pellaeon, how long will it take to repair the damage to the Judicator?'
'Several days at the least, Admiral,' Pellaeon told him. 'Depending on the damage, it could take as long as three or four weeks.' [ "Heir to the Empire", p. 150 ]

Many Warsies have tried to come up with excuses for the Judicator's lack of performance against Nkllon's star, Athega, citing that the the star must be a pulsar or at least an O or B-type. They also try to come up with other excuses like claiming the Judicator had been in some sort of prior action that had drained it's shields, and that the big ship was in no danger whatsoever. However, as the actual quotes above show, the Warsie's claims are unfounded as usual. The E-D in episodes like "Descent" and "Relics" fared far better, her hull not even suffering a burned paint job, while the Judicator lost quite a bit, and was likely to spend up to 4 weeks undergoing repairs to her hull. This after only a mere few minutes exposure.
-Mike

[Jedi Master Spock]

Sun's Corona is hotter - about 12000 degrees due to magnetic effects, and they would affect a metal ship more than hydrogen.

Well yeah, but a corona is also a lot less dense. Which translates to heat on hull. Though admittedly, i know little about said topic.

And on a related matter, how many kg of plasma would there be per cubic meter? I know it would be hard to figure out the exact dimensions of the vessel in question. But a minimum value could at least be established.

Erhm. The photosphere averages a under a kg per cubic meter.

The chromosphere is on the order of 1-10 grams per cubic meter, and the corona is even less dense. For that matter, even the outer part of the photosphere is not very opaque; most of the light comes from the lower levels of the photosphere.

So when we see, as we do here, the Enterprise partially obscured on its way "in" to the star, it is actually already in the photosphere. Nothing else would be this opaque, although the script does refer to surviving in the corona and the fusion burst coming out of the corona. Although the photosphere is part of the Sun's atmosphere, really, it's still not properly referred to as the corona according to modern convention.

Now, we could also look at the Okudagram here, showing the origin of the "sub surface" fusion burst initiated with the E-D's phasers and ask what that tells us about the artificial flare.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Since we're on the subject of how much solar radiation starships can handle, here's a reminder from the Star Wars EU "Heir to the Empire" stories of what an ISD can handle:

" 'The problems will be minimal,' Thrawn said with easy confidence. 'If the jump is done with sufficient accuracy, the Judicator will be in direct sunlight for only a few minutes each way. Its hull can certainly handle that much. We'll simply need to take a few days first to shield the viewports and remove external sensors and communications equipment. [ "Heir to the Empire", p. 101 ]

"'Nkllon's a superhot planet - way too close to its sun for any normal ship to get to without getting part of its hull peeled off.'" [ "Heir to the Empire", p. 134 ]

"The Star Destroyer itself didn't worry him - if Lando's descriptions of the sunlight's intensity were right, the big ship itself was probably helpless by now, its sensors and maybe even a fair amount of its armament vaporized right off its hull." [ "Heir to the Empire", p. 145 ]

"'Captain Pellaeon, how long will it take to repair the damage to the Judicator?'
'Several days at the least, Admiral,' Pellaeon told him. 'Depending on the damage, it could take as long as three or four weeks.' [ "Heir to the Empire", p. 150 ]

Many Warsies have tried to come up with excuses for the Judicator's lack of performance against Nkllon's star, Athega, citing that the the star must be a pulsar or at least an O or B-type. They also try to come up with other excuses like claiming the Judicator had been in some sort of prior action that had drained it's shields, and that the big ship was in no danger whatsoever. However, as the actual quotes above show, the Warsie's claims are unfounded as usual. The E-D in episodes like "Descent" and "Relics" fared far better, her hull not even suffering a burned paint job, while the Judicator lost quite a bit, and was likely to spend up to 4 weeks undergoing repairs to her hull. This after only a mere few minutes exposure.
-Mike

A pulsar would give a very peculiar and particular pattern of damage, and it would be grossly negligent of Zahn not to mention it to be a pulsar.

I will give you this: If you sit right next to a 50,000 Kelvin object (i.e., a hot class O supergiant), you'll receive 64x as much radiation as when sitting right next to a 12,500 Kelvin object, and generally 16x as much as sitting inside a 12,500 Kelvin object. The precise ratio does depend a bit on your cross-section, of course.

[Nonamer]

Since we're on the subject of how much solar radiation starships can handle, here's a reminder from the Star Wars EU "Heir to the Empire" stories of what an ISD can handle:

" 'The problems will be minimal,' Thrawn said with easy confidence. 'If the jump is done with sufficient accuracy, the Judicator will be in direct sunlight for only a few minutes each way. Its hull can certainly handle that much. We'll simply need to take a few days first to shield the viewports and remove external sensors and communications equipment. [ "Heir to the Empire", p. 101 ]

"'Nkllon's a superhot planet - way too close to its sun for any normal ship to get to without getting part of its hull peeled off.'" [ "Heir to the Empire", p. 134 ]

"The Star Destroyer itself didn't worry him - if Lando's descriptions of the sunlight's intensity were right, the big ship itself was probably helpless by now, its sensors and maybe even a fair amount of its armament vaporized right off its hull." [ "Heir to the Empire", p. 145 ]

"'Captain Pellaeon, how long will it take to repair the damage to the Judicator?'
'Several days at the least, Admiral,' Pellaeon told him. 'Depending on the damage, it could take as long as three or four weeks.' [ "Heir to the Empire", p. 150 ]

Many Warsies have tried to come up with excuses for the Judicator's lack of performance against Nkllon's star, Athega, citing that the the star must be a pulsar or at least an O or B-type. They also try to come up with other excuses like claiming the Judicator had been in some sort of prior action that had drained it's shields, and that the big ship was in no danger whatsoever. However, as the actual quotes above show, the Warsie's claims are unfounded as usual. The E-D in episodes like "Descent" and "Relics" fared far better, her hull not even suffering a burned paint job, while the Judicator lost quite a bit, and was likely to spend up to 4 weeks undergoing repairs to her hull. This after only a mere few minutes exposure.
-Mike

A pulsar would give a very peculiar and particular pattern of damage, and it would be grossly negligent of Zahn not to mention it to be a pulsar.

I will give you this: If you sit right next to a 50,000 Kelvin object (i.e., a hot class O supergiant), you'll receive 64x as much radiation as when sitting right next to a 12,500 Kelvin object, and generally 16x as much as sitting inside a 12,500 Kelvin object. The precise ratio does depend a bit on your cross-section, of course.

Why would that be? Isn't temperature a linear scale?

[AnonymousRedShirtEnsign]

Yes, but radiation and temperature are not the same thing.

[Mike DiCenso]

Jedi Master Spock wrote:
A pulsar would give a very peculiar and particular pattern of damage, and it would be grossly negligent of Zahn not to mention it to be a pulsar.

I will give you this: If you sit right next to a 50,000 Kelvin object (i.e., a hot class O supergiant), you'll receive 64x as much radiation as when sitting right next to a 12,500 Kelvin object, and generally 16x as much as sitting inside a 12,500 Kelvin object. The precise ratio does depend a bit on your cross-section, of course.

Unfortunately for certain Warsies, Zahn does throw in a statement prior to the the Judicator's raid that definitively establishes the star Athega as type of star other than a pulsar (or black hole for that matter); Leia makes a comment that she can see Athega's "solar corona" when the star is eclipsed.

So at the best that Warsies can hope for, Athega is an O or other similar main sequence star. Unfortunately again, the EU comes back to bite them in the ass by showing in the Dark Horse adaptation of "Heir to the Empire", a yellow-white Athega with a some red-orange color. Also the comic book "visuals" show that Nkllon is not anywhere near as close to Athega as the E-D is to the stars in "Relics" or "Descent, Part II".
-Mike

[Jedi Master Spock]

Why would that be? Isn't temperature a linear scale?

Temperature is linear in one sense - average kinetic energy of particles. And conductive heat transfer is proportional linearly to the temperature difference. Newton figured that out.

However, not everything related to temperature is linear, and not all heat transfer is conductive. Some is radiative, and it's this that's going to cook the hull when you have shields. Black body radiation (heat radiation) is proportional to the fourth power of temperature, so a 50,000K body radiates sixty four times as much as a 12,500K body.

To illustrate why going inside the body increases your radiation by (typically) a factor of four, I'll define what the "typical" shape is: Spherical. So if you're sitting outside, you get a circle's radiation - pi*r^2 - and inside, you get your surface area - 4*pi*r^2.

If you half-submerge, you get an average of twice the radiation of sitting outside and half of sitting inside. It's dependent some on geometry, but that's the factor of 16 difference between those two cases.

Leia makes a comment that she can see Athega's "solar corona" when the star is eclipsed.

What is it eclipsed by? See... the fraction of the sky taken up by the star determines how much of its radiation is going to be present. That's the geometric reasoning underlying the inverse square law, and if you can see the corona in an eclipse and know the size and distance of an object, you know exactly how much of the sky it takes up. From that and the temperature, you can determine exactly how much radiative flux you're eating.

The star having a corona doesn't prevent it from being a white dwarf, incidentally, although a white dwarf is vanishingly unlikely to have a companion close enough to see it as a disk in the sky.

[Mike DiCenso]

Leia makes a comment that she can see Athega's "solar corona" when the star is eclipsed.

Jedi Master Spock wrote:
What is it eclipsed by? See... the fraction of the sky taken up by the star determines how much of its radiation is going to be present. That's the geometric reasoning underlying the inverse square law, and if you can see the corona in an eclipse and know the size and distance of an object, you know exactly how much of the sky it takes up. From that and the temperature, you can determine exactly how much radiative flux you're eating.

The star having a corona doesn't prevent it from being a white dwarf, incidentally, although a white dwarf is vanishingly unlikely to have a companion close enough to see it as a disk in the sky.

You can find the description on page 140 of the paperback edition of HttE; Leia makes the comment that she can actually see part of Athega's solar corona as the Millenium Falcon and it's shield ship pass into Nkllon's shadow, causing the star to become eclipsed.
-Mike