Hoth, shield, ICS and neutrinos

Mr. Oragahn · Post by **Mr. Oragahn** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:20 am

There's something I'd like to know.

Besides Vader not even knowing what he wants (capture Luke but try to kill any rebel on sight... was he thinking his son would escape if he was powerful enough in the Force, and would accept his death if it had to happen?), I have a question. So here's the real hot topic:

If those five or six imperial destroyers were firing at Echo Base's shield, and actually trying to dent it, how did the shield generator deal with the energy?

Assuming the neutrino sink tank model from the ICS, despite being low interactivity particles, wouldn't neutrinos released into Hoth's atmosphere actually show some significant trace of DET if the shield was actually protecting the whole place from the heaviest firepower possible? Say, multiple tens of teratons per second.

It's not like there's much evidence that the imperial ships fired at the theater shield, but I'm pondering the efficiency... no, the intelligence of such a model if they had been firing at it.

Wouldn't this still cause massive atmospheric heating? Wouldn't this actually damage the generator in return (fireball, overpressure, etc.), no matter if neutrinos were fired in the utmost focused beam possible?
How practical would it be for the rebels?

And if it was the case, at this point, you'd wonder the usefulness of such shields, and ask why they would not put more ion heavy cannons instead, as the first line of defense (which btw proved much more efficient than a shield that does not repel enemy ships, especially when said shield can be bypassed by walkers).

Wouldn't a network of generators better, to dispatch the overall quantity of neutrino radiations?

Or is the whole system relying on some super buffer that just stores energy, and then goes boom when full, obliterating half the planet?

Mr. Oragahn · Post by **Mr. Oragahn** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:30 pm

Ha, seems my attempt at shocking the president's wife totally failed.

Maybe my point isn't clear.

Saxton, I think, said through the ICS that the buffers, or something similar, transfer the absorbed energy into neutrinos, which are then ejected.

People at SB, and a person at STrek-v-SWars did demonstrate that even the lowest interaction neutrinos, when charged with so high levels of energy, would still kill everybody around and, past a certain level, even ignite surrounding atmosphere.

So is it safe to have such a shield, working by these principles, located inside an atmosphere?
This is mainly aimed at those who believe in the energetic neutrino evac model.

I just want to know if you think such a system sounds credible, well thought, or on the contrary, is totally awkward.

SailorSaturn13 · Post by **SailorSaturn13** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 5:59 am

Teraton weapons would surely made such shields (radius below 50 km) obsolete. Simple 1TT shot 50 km otside would create an Earthquake bigger than everything observed on Earth. This would kill all people at the base and knock out the generator. Should the Rebels miracuously suvive this, less than 40 shots would be enough to vapourise the planet UNDER the base, making it` fall kilometer deep down.

So no, teraton weapons cannot bestopped by such a shield...

Mr. Oragahn · Post by **Mr. Oragahn** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 1:38 pm

On that we totally agree, but it's not exactly the point I was trying to get through.

Say you got a planetary shield. Huh, over Coruscant or Alderaan (no debate please).

You got a huge fleet bombarding it for hours. According to the ICS and else, it's like hundreds of petatons unleashed upon those worlds per minute.

How do the shield generators bleed off the energy they get without firing streams of neutrinos through the atmosphere and back into space?

Wouldn't this actually torch all life on said planets?

Besides, why not actually bother to redirect the absorbed energy into highly interactive particles, sealed within those classical non interactive bolts, and fire them back to the enemy.
The whole idea is that they have a tech that lets them have a direct energy transfer from those shields straight into a pool of neutrinos, because of a theory made by Saxton, but they don't push it to the likely and logical consequence, that is, return that damn power straight at the enemy.

Wouldn't this also show the theory being wrong?

GStone · Post by **GStone** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 1:57 pm

I'm gonna play devil's advocate just to do it. Maybe something cool will come of it. Who know?

[puts on rabid Wars person, ICS shipper, Saxtonian sycophant, Wong worshipper hat]

I posted this scathing rebuttal to Dorkstar's blog last night and a bit this morning to get a jump on any of his insane retorts he always tries to worm his way with.

[::wink::]

"Okay, here's a possible explanation. The absorption field maintains integrity for a time after the tech making it has stopped functioning, so there's still neutrino conversions happening. It's just an automatic thing and the field's integrity is maintained long enough to keep the after effects low. It's like when you stop feeding energy into maintaining a warp field. It takes a couple minutes to drop out of warp (Encounter at Farpoint). It's the same thing."

And this morning:

"An to expand upon the converter field, the area of effect of this conversion field spreads far out, even though it may weaken a little the further it is extended. With so many fields up in the area, the battle field on geonosis is basically covered and any area the might not be is just a technical goof."

It's a common idea that fields in Star Wars do not have a defined edge, like they do in Trek, and whatever is thought to be a defined edge is just a certain level of intensity. It is often thought that energy fields weaken the further they extend. So, if the Trade Federation core ships are huge, they're gonna have a massive field, much more than what you might see with those Republic gunships. Because they're huge, the field expands far far out, covering a huge area. That would mean that the core ships landing close by is smart because it multiplies the level of protection, in case they were discovered by the Republic, since they were in hiding.

The gunships would have these fields, too, or they'd cause massive destruction to themselves, the atmosphere and possibly the planet, too, maybe making it a giant cracked planet over the long haul. So, to protect the gunships themselves, their weapons are already gonna get dialed down some automatically by the gunship's own converter field. And, given the massive field the core ships probably put out, the weapon's energy is gonna be dialed down more.

But, what needs to be remembered is that the level of energy weapon energy-neutrino generation conversion ratio is not a strict 1:1 ratio. The laws of thermodynamics must still apply. The amount of neutrinos generated is far far less than the amount of initial energy absorbed by the field. This is why we don't see massive damage by neutrinos themselves. This is a tech that's deliberately kept inefficient for the safety of the user or it'd be no good at all. And, because of the low neutrino production, they wouldn't make a good source of energy to throw at your enemies, so it isn't used that way.

Beat that, blighters!

Post by **Mike DiCenso** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 11:22 pm

Actually, here's a more interesting application of all this neutrino nonsense. If Warsies claim this sort of thing to explain away the appearance of low weapon yeilds in the movies, then why couldn't the Trek side do the same; that Federation and other ST shields use the neutrino sink concept, and therefore that is why we don't see TDiC-level energy events in ship-to-ship combat.
-Mike

GStone · Post by **GStone** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:25 am

Because there's nothing in the canon that I'm aware of that says any race in Trek has neutrino generating heat sinks, including the Founders. The ICS says they're there.

Post by **Mike DiCenso** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:41 pm

Ah, but the high-energy events of "Masks" and "The Die is Cast" warrant the existance of a similar system in Trek. Otherwise you run into the same problems all over again with Trek as you do with Wars.
-Mike

GStone · Post by **GStone** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:53 am

Pffffbbbbbttt!

That's nothing. Mask had a chain reaction weapon set to melt and TDiC had visuals on a view screen and we know the sensors were being messed with. There was no change in life signs after the volleys were fired. Plus, how many times have Trek sensors been fooled before? If we go with sensors in the modern era, Voyager had sensors that said an asteroid was gonna be blown to itty bitty pieces. It should have been (according to them), but it didn't. Even if they believed that they could have done that much damage to the planet with their weapons, we have seen similar level sophistication be fooled by a material before. Any external shots of the planet not on a viewscreen can't be trusted either because, while we know they fired, they could have thrown a hologram up or something to hide what they were doing to the incoming weapon attack. The Founders are sneaky, so I wouldn't put it past them to try this to even get one over on those that look outside a window. They were going up against the Tal Shiar and the Obsidian Order. They're a paranoid bunch. Since the trap was set before they showed up, they must have known that about them, too.

So, since phaser particles seem to be a weird chain reaction thing, some of the ice melted from the phasering. The rest could have cracked into tiny pieces that weren't visible at that magnification, plus pressure digging into the ice covering. Then, you have an archive that's presumably built to withstand being in space, as it travels. You don't build something that can survive in space by making it with substandard parts. The thing was really old and was able to interface with Federation technology and take it over. That's more sophisticated than Fed tech. Societies advance with the requisite surrounding technological advances in other areas of society.

You may say 'what about the Lissian Alliance and that other one that was fighting?' They could interface with Federation computers and mess with biochemistries and memories. Yeah, but you need to look at just how an area of knowledge can advance the other parts. Unless you've got the brain bug of organic ships, it's not gonna do much good. But...this is a different situation. That archive was built to last.

GStone · Post by **GStone** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 1:00 am

[takes off the hat of the rabid fans of Wars]

What are people thinking of my impression of the extremists of the other side? Am I being too wordy? I was trying for a rabid fan trying to beat the other side at their own game of extensive details of events or would that just not be in the spirit of the other side's rabids?

AFT · Post by **AFT** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 3:20 am

GStone wrote:[takes off the hat of the rabid fans of Wars]

What are people thinking of my impression of the extremists of the other side? Am I being too wordy? I was trying for a rabid fan trying to beat the other side at their own game of extensive details of events or would that just not be in the spirit of the other side's rabids?

It was…acceptable. Really, this kind of people should hear or read whatever they are saying before they actually do it. It can get quite absurd.

sonofccn · Post by **sonofccn** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:37 am

GStone wrote:[takes off the hat of the rabid fans of Wars]

What are people thinking of my impression of the extremists of the other side? Am I being too wordy? I was trying for a rabid fan trying to beat the other side at their own game of extensive details of events or would that just not be in the spirit of the other side's rabids?

I think you do a fair impression of the iconic opposition. I found your posts quite amusing.

Just be careful with that hat, it might cause permant brain damag. I would hate to see you permantly arguring that a lone ISD could crush the entire Romulan-Frederation-Klingon alliance. :)

Sidenote:I don't know if everyone else already knows this or not but everytime I typed Rabid+Warsie I got rabid warsie. I just found it odd, through I guess it's just forum rules or something.

GStone · Post by **GStone** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 1:40 pm

Thanks. I added the holographic one because I can't remember if there were any external shots of the planet not on a viewscreen, so I thought I'd cover my bases. And, if someone, such as Mike or anyone else replies to the archive bit, I've got a few ideas about material science and engineering and some more about phaser particles I can add and I got an idea or 2 about the supposed Founders homeworld that involves some pretty nifty ideas the other side would enjoy...of course, while I've got the hat on.

But...someone would have to dare take on the warsie that's "trumping the trekkies at their own game". Things are slowing down because of the possible revelation of an archived version of strek-v-swars.com's forum, but I'm sure someone will have the cojones to step up. It'd just look weird if I did the responding.

I'll give you 10 to 1 odds they still won't pay attention to what I'm saying. I'm giving them so much they would love to get their hands on.

sonofccn wrote:Sidenote:I don't know if everyone else already knows this or not but everytime I typed Rabid+Warsie I got esteemed fan of Star Wars. I just found it odd, through I guess it's just forum rules or something.

I saw that when I started my acting. But, if you add a couple more words, like I did, you can get the idea across.

sonofccn wrote:Just be careful with that hat, it might cause permant brain damag. I would hate to see you permantly arguring that a lone ISD could crush the entire Romulan-Frederation-Klingon alliance. :)

[puts hat back on]

Oh, yeah? You think one of our ships couldn't take you on? How about this?

One ISD. RFK Alliance. ISD jumps to hyperspace, as it gets fired upon. Because our ships are invulnerable in hyperspace, the attacks are either brute force-ily absorbed or are deflected. What's deflected hits some of the unsuspecting Alliance ships. They're flawed analysis of our technology leads them to think that they don't need to all have their shields up. Most won't, so the shots will hit them (a good deal will, but I'll grant that not every one will likely hit an unshielded ship). It'll be phasers and photons that are fired, so there'll be extensive damage to some of their vessels.

We exit hyperspace on the far side of the Alliance fleet, as we fire probe droid containing bombs and turbolasers. Then, we do it again, only stopping on another area of the Alliance fleet. But, they keep firing and the attacks are still either brute force-ily absorbed/stopped or deflected, as we keep jumping into hyperspace and it hits more of their ships. Because they're getting pelted a lot by their own guys' weapons, they end up fighting themselves in a way, as they try to get their barrings.