TCW CGI show and The State of the Debate

[Mike DiCenso]

However, those two things only occur in war. What about matters like the Temporal Prime Directive? After all, these are guys from the past, but if they can return (e.g. via a temporal wormhole) then as soon as they appear Temporal Investigations is going to go apeshit.

What are the rules when people from the distant past appear but who are far-far-away? You piss them off, you risk having them holding a grudge for a billion years, long enough for them to have transgalactic ships or transgalactic galaxy-blaster torpedoes, or just becoming Q-like and wishing you away.

Yes, as I pointed out in another thread, the temporal aspect of all of this lends an actual urgency for the Federation and it's AQ and BQ allies to shut down the wormhole, rather than risk a protracted fight and contamination of the timeline. The only thing off the top of my head that might change that is if it can be conclusively proven that the SW galaxy exists in a parallel universe.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Well it's safe to assume the following at the very least:

The two must meet through some sort of distortion, like a wormhole through time and space.

That both sides, in order to wage a war, should have a fairly easy time using this plot device to go from one galaxy to the other.

We know a rough assortment of fleets and fleet sizes for both sizes, and we can evenly distribute them through out their theoratically territory somewhat evenly.

We know the general strengths and weaknesses of each sides ships.


About the biggest question left is how would industrial power factor into the war... after that we can at the very least map out a basic 'conflict' to some degree... sure we can't say, "the battle happens at X location" but we can certainly see how the basics of each side fare when thrown together. We can do this more so if we simplify each side to some degree.

That's been discussed before in a Empire vs Federation thread, right here, so everything you mention has been analyzed pretty thoroughly... :)

Yes, it has been. But the TCW depiction of SW is rapidly going to make some of that discussion change, or at least require the refinement of some of them since it is really just confirming what some of us always knew about SW tech.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

but save for the über-wanker holdouts from SDN and SpaceBattles moderators, there won't be anyone to argue against.

So you're equating this to the conclusion of the Lincoln's mission (often also understood as the successful toppling of the Hussein regime), but noting that an insurgency, overblown by critics sympathetic to or actively aligned with the insurgency, will continue?

Sounds about right, really. Except, in this case, the Lincoln's still not finished.

See what I mean? Note that Kane isn't addressing the implications of the TCW, or what the rammifications of a specifically George Lucas approved and produced live-action TV series that follows along a similar depiction of the SW universe will mean to the debate.
-Mike

[2046]

See what I mean? Note that Kane isn't addressing the implications of the TCW, or what the rammifications of a specifically George Lucas approved and produced live-action TV series that follows along a similar depiction of the SW universe will mean to the debate.
-Mike

Don't be silly. TCW does not exist. Lucas has canonized the EU and declared Saxton the new master of the Star Wars franchise. Oh, and this thread is just for posting pictures intended to be descriptive of one's adversaries:



But seriously . . . Kane, do you really think TCW shows Saxtonian yields? If you need to go ask for help at SDN or SB please do so, but I see no evidence of anything even remotely Saxtonian. All I see is far lower film-level numbers, which in my opinion are right and proper.

[Mike DiCenso]

That pic is pure loads of awesome sauce, Robert! Where'd you find it, and what in hell was it originally intended for?
-Mike

[The Dude]

State of the Debate, what debate? I wouldn't exactly call folks sitting on two different sites, not talking to each other a debate. It's more like neighbours listening to each other through the wall.

Cool pic though. And man do I pity the poor bastards that had to put the banner up on that island.

[Mike DiCenso]

Not really, Dude. Things are changing, though slowly, over at SB.com as more and more of the TCW comes out. Also note Kane Starkiller popping into this thread. Obviously he felt a need to try to do something to distract and derail this thread rather than address the issues.
-Mike

[The Dude]

Kane has always been around though. As have I, being Cpl Kendall on here and SDN. Though I admit to not visiting SB.com except on vary rare occasions.

I haven't seen TCW yet (I don't think it airs here), though I may pick it up for my son, who loves all things SW.

[Mike DiCenso]

I thought it was you. It's a pity you don't debate more as you are one of the rare handful of rational pro-Wars debaters out there (at least among the major vocal ones, anyway), and I've always enjoyed discussing the tech and military topics with you since we first met all those years ago on the old Strek-v-Swars forum.

As for TCW, if you don't trust the archiving and analysis of the series on RSA's site, then you can download and watch them on Hulu, Dailymotion or YouTube, among other sites, and judge for yourself.
-Mike

[The Dude]

I thought it was you. It's a pity you don't debate more as you are one of the rare handful of rational pro-Wars debaters out there (at least among the major vocal ones, anyway), and I've always enjoyed discussing the tech and military topics with you since we first met all those years ago on the old Strek-v-Swars forum.

Which one was that, Roberts or the one run by the dude with a Warbird avatar (great description I know)?

I've largely dropped out due to boredom and medical issues that haven't been to kind to my brain.

As for TCW, if you don't trust the archiving and analysis of the series on RSA's site, then you can download and watch them on Hulu, Dailymotion or YouTube, among other sites, and judge for yourself.
-Mike

Hulu doesn't work here but I'll check out Dailymotion and youtube.

[Kane Starkiller]

OK since you've asked let me try to respond to some of the stuff here.

but save for the über-wanker holdouts from SDN and SpaceBattles moderators, there won't be anyone to argue against.

So the "only" people left to argue are those from SDN? I'm curious, who else have you been debating stvsw? Wasn't it always people from SDN? So what exactly is changed, who are these other people/websites you have convinced or have changed sides?

Regarding the "devastating" evidence from TCW it all amounts to there not being mushroom clouds when they are fighting in atmosphere. Yet they weren't any mushroom clouds in "Starship Down", "Equinox" and "Dragon's tooth" all of which occur in atmosphere yet you still claim multimegaton energy levels for photons and phasers. Starfleetjedi itself claims even gigaton level firepower for Galaxy class starship. So, if you claim that it doesn't "look" as if there are multimegaton or multgigaton firepower on SW ships, at the very least you should try and apply some consistency for both universes.

As for combat ranges I don't remember ever hearing claims that SW ships have a decisive range advantage. Such claims always came from people arguing ST superiority. Needles to say nothing in the movies or TCW series showed inferior ranges to those seen in any Dominion War battles, Borg cube battle, DS9 sieges, Scimitar battle etc. etc. etc.
In fact Sacrifice of Angels literally has Sisko trying to make a physical hole in a wall of ships with Defiant nearly scratching the paint off that Dominion battlecruiser as they punch through.

What TCW does show is Clonetroopers operating in space (last episode also shows this) and having nightvision thus putting to rest silly claims of lame plastic suits with obstructed vision.

Not really, Dude. Things are changing, though slowly, over at SB.com as more and more of the TCW comes out. Also note Kane Starkiller popping into this thread. Obviously he felt a need to try to do something to distract and derail this thread rather than address the issues.

LOL you've claimed victory for years. This was nothing but yet another self pep talk. "The state of the debate". Honestly.

[Mike DiCenso]

Which one was that, Roberts or the one run by the dude with a Warbird avatar (great description I know)?

Strek-v-Swars.net is neither RSA's, nor Tyralak's. It was a website inspired by RSA's ST-v-SW.net site, but had it's own articles and commentary as well as a forum. Lots of folk went there following the end of RSA's forum.

I've largely dropped out due to boredom and medical issues that haven't been to kind to my brain.

I'am sorry to hear that things haven't gotten better for you.
-Mike

[The Dude]

Strek-v-Swars.net is neither RSA's, nor Tyralak's. It was a website inspired by RSA's ST-v-SW.net site, but had it's own articles and commentary as well as a forum. Lots of folk went there following the end of RSA's forum.

I think I remember that one now. Avatar of Narenda IIRC ran it.

I'am sorry to hear that things haven't gotten better for you.
-Mike

*shrug* That's life I guess. Thanks though. :)

[Mike DiCenso]

Not really, Dude. Things are changing, though slowly, over at SB.com as more and more of the TCW comes out. Also note Kane Starkiller popping into this thread. Obviously he felt a need to try to do something to distract and derail this thread rather than address the issues.

LOL you've claimed victory for years. This was nothing but yet another self pep talk. "The state of the debate". Honestly.

Pep talk? Just pointing out how you guys keep ignoring what Lucas is actually doing with his creation, and keep on with the uber-wank long after TCW has all but throughly stomped it into the ground with contradictions. Suffice to say, even before TCW came out, we had seen folks on SB.com start questioning the ICS when they saw in May 2005 with the Invisible Hand unable to handle atmospheric entry temperatures to it's hull, and it's hull undercarriage collapse like tinfoil. So much for the neutronium armor that can soak up supposed 200 gigaton shots! TCW is only rubbing that in further that the Saxonite view of SW tech is nothing like Lucas' . Are there still defenders of the ICS Faith on SB.com? You betcha! Point 45 and Vympel/Leo1 haven't gone away as far as I know, nor have those number of the pro-Wars (read: also pro-ICS) mods. In one sad recent case we had a pro-SW mod on SB.com attempting to try and change the rules so that TCW as inadmissible because of the blatent contradictions. Luckily, saner heads prevailed and called shenanigans on it all, and the proposal was shot down. So it may take a few more years and possibly the live-action TV series, but I don't think people on SB.com are going to take the ICS very seriously, or at least not as seriously as it was in the past.
-Mike

[The Dude]

Couple questions:

1. Where does TCW fit in the canon hierarchy?
2. Does Lucas even care about what happens in it? He did essentially turf out the entire EU (or a good portion at least) with the prequels.