Starfleet Jedi

In the First Death star I could see the Federation send in a few hundred commandoes to try over run it. How many foot soldiers would the Federation need send over Death star to over run it?

LOL the equatorial deck of Death Star alone has a surface area equal to Connecticut. You ain't going to be overruning that with a few hundred soldiers even if they are so badass they carry ketracel white tubes of killed Jem'Hadar as necklace.

Depends. Do they know the basic layout of the place and where to find control rooms, weakpoints, etc? If they do then they could manage to disable the thing without too much actual combat. If they're just running around killing stuff then there's up to 500,000 guards to deal with. Which is tad too much for a ground of 100. Not to mention fixed defenses, like turrets and the like. Though that might not be too much of an issue since they have an effective range of about five centimeters. :P

Jasonb wrote:In the First Death star I could see the Federation send in a few hundred commandoes to try over run it. How many foot soldiers would the Federation need send over Death star to over run it?

A few hundred commandos? Wait, did the UFP have new suits I didn't hear about?

The low ball numbers in the EU already give a couple million men total. Although that makes a low density, once moved into the appropriate section, said density goes up fairly quickly.

Now, it depends if the UFP guys sneak into the battle station and try to move around smartly, to dump some bomb or else.

But taking over? Impossible.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:But taking over? Impossible.

Not necessarily. If they can secure control systems on the Death Star, things would doubtlessly get a lot easier. Turn security systems to target their own, expose certain sections to space, etc. You could end up getting rid of a lot of people just by pressing a few buttons.

It would all depend on how the Death Star is designed though.

That's like saying that if US gets detailed plans of Russian nuclear installations they can send few hundred special troops on stealth planes to secure them (stupid drunk Russian base guards can't aim, 5cm range LOL!) and defeat Russia. I guess one could argue there is a theoretical possibility of that succeeding but I wouldn't really bet on it.

Taking over the Death Star would not be feasible, I think. Better to just destroy it. What would be interesting to see, however, is how far a group could get given the technologies with which they were equipped. For instance, give the commandos TR116 rifles and personal force fields from "Field of Fire" and "A Fistful of Datas" respectively. The TR116, as equipped in DS9, would enable them to clear a room before they even got near it. Even if the range of the microtransporter was a mere kilometer (sufficient to encompass DS9, as per the episode) it would make for one hell of an advantage over the Imperials.

Kane Starkiller wrote:That's like saying that if US gets detailed plans of Russian nuclear installations they can send few hundred special troops on stealth planes to secure them (stupid drunk Russian base guards can't aim, 5cm range LOL!) and defeat Russia.

That's a terrible analogy if ever there was one. Last I checked Russia had a little more then a million people in it. Russia also lacks conveniently placed life-support systems that can be shut down, and remotely controlled defense systems that can be made to shoot the people they're supposed to be defending, which is the main reason taking over control points would make it possible in this case. And in the scenario you depicted the US spec ops would come up against more then just stormtroopers.

Getting to the desired places (assuming the infiltrators know where they're going) shouldn't be an issue. The Death Star is extremely large, considering the 2 km thick habitable crust, and coupled with the low population you've got an extremely low population density. You're going to easily avoid people if you want too. And even if you don't want to avoid people you could just put on some stormtrooper gear and pretend you're one of them. Oh, quite naturally you're going to have to pull out the guns at some point, but given the population densities, there aren't going to be a whole lot of people nearby when that happens.

As for the effective range of the automated defenses; well, we saw them get off dozens of shots at Han and Chewie, but they didn't seem to hit anything, so 5 cm seems about right, or am I being too generous? I guess this could become a problem if you turned the defenses on their own though. :P

l33telboi wrote:That's a terrible analogy if ever there was one. Last I checked Russia had a little more then a million people in it. Russia also lacks conveniently placed life-support systems that can be shut down, and remotely controlled defense systems that can be made to shoot the people they're supposed to be defending, which is the main reason taking over control points would make it possible in this case. And in the scenario you depicted the US spec ops would come up against more then just stormtroopers.

Getting to the desired places (assuming the infiltrators know where they're going) shouldn't be an issue. The Death Star is extremely large, considering the 2 km thick habitable crust, and coupled with the low population you've got an extremely low population density. You're going to easily avoid people if you want too. And even if you don't want to avoid people you could just put on some stormtrooper gear and pretend you're one of them. Oh, quite naturally you're going to have to pull out the guns at some point, but given the population densities, there aren't going to be a whole lot of people nearby when that happens.

Even the prisons are heavily guarded on Death Star and they don't let you go in without authorization. Somehow I don't think Federation soldiers are just get to stroll around and into sensitive areas to deactivate this and that.

l33telboi wrote:As for the effective range of the automated defenses; well, we saw them get off dozens of shots at Han and Chewie, but they didn't seem to hit anything, so 5 cm seems about right, or am I being too generous? I guess this could become a problem if you turned the defenses on their own though. :P

Heh you must be confusing Stormtroopers for Klingons and their bath'leths. But really just because they didn't hit Han and Chewie at that particular occasion you honestly think that you can just walk around at that distance and be completely safe? I've seen plenty of ship firefights in Star Trek and nothing I've seen suggests they have better accuracy than Stormtroopers.

Kane Starkiller wrote:Even the prisons are heavily guarded on Death Star and they don't let you go in without authorization. Somehow I don't think Federation soldiers are just get to stroll around and into sensitive areas to deactivate this and that.

"Heavily guarded?" :D

I don't see how a few dozen stormtroopers and defensive turrets that can't hit anything could be considered 'heavily guarded.' Dare I remind you that a grand total of two people managed to subdue the actual guards, and even managed to escape the reinforcements? Imagine what someone who know what they were doing, and had more manpower, would be capable of.

In any case, the specific number of people required for the assault would depend on how much they know about the Death Star, and how many key locations needs to be controlled in order to gain control of most major systems so they can be turned against their own.

Heh you must be confusing Stormtroopers for Klingons and their bath'leths.

It's easy to do. Their effective range is pretty much the same, after all. Maybe that’s why the first thing clones always do is run up to B1 droids and hit them? ;)

But really just because they didn't hit Han and Chewie at that particular occasion you honestly think that you can just walk around at that distance and be completely safe?

The problem is that 'that particular occasion' is pretty much everything in Star Wars. Have you seen the TCW? The Death Star showings in regards to accuracy are pretty brilliant by comparison, and yes, we’ve even seen a battle where a number of clones run up to hand-to-hand range of a large advancing group of B1 droids and survive to see them all dead. In any case, even if we decide to not over-analyze the accuracy bit, those defenses are pretty inexcusable. They had a long time to shoot two targets out in the open, but those two targets managed to take out the defenses first. That's pretty much black on white evidence that these things aren't all that good, and that they'll likely be disabled before managing to do anything of worth.

I've seen plenty of ship firefights in Star Trek and nothing I've seen suggests they have better accuracy than Stormtroopers.

Why not test that with a small challenge. Provide me with the poorest showing of accuracy on behalf of Starfleet and I'll promise I can find 5 firefights that show worse accuracy in nothing but the Star Wars movies and TCW. It probably takes some time for me to get the specifics though, so you’ll have those 5 firefights tomorrow after work.

l33telboi wrote:"Heavily guarded?" :D

I don't see how a few dozen stormtroopers and defensive turrets that can't hit anything could be considered 'heavily guarded.' Dare I remind you that a grand total of two people managed to subdue the actual guards, and even managed to escape the reinforcements? Imagine what someone who know what they were doing, and had more manpower, would be capable of.

In any case, the specific number of people required for the assault would depend on how much they know about the Death Star, and how many key locations needs to be controlled in order to gain control of most major systems so they can be turned against their own.

Again the fact that when surprised couldn't hit Han and Luke before they killed them in no way proves that they "can't hit anything" nor have you demonstrated any Federation soldier would do better.

l33telboi wrote:It's easy to do. Their effective range is pretty much the same, after all. Maybe that’s why the first thing clones always do is run up to B1 droids and hit them? ;)

Yet they are effective against the Federaion. So your claim of their superior accuracy falls flat.

l33telboi wrote:Why not test that with a small challenge. Provide me with the poorest showing of accuracy on behalf of Starfleet and I'll promise I can find 5 firefights that show worse accuracy in nothing but the Star Wars movies and TCW. It probably takes some time for me to get the specifics though, so you’ll have those 5 firefights tomorrow after work.

You claimed Federation range and accuracy is vastly superior. Prove it then.

Kane Starkiller wrote:Again the fact that when surprised couldn't hit Han and Luke before they killed them in no way proves that they "can't hit anything" nor have you demonstrated any Federation soldier would do better.

First of all I'd point out that it sounds a bit silly when you say that automated defenses are 'surprised'. That'd make sense if the defenses failed to activate or something, but that's not the case. Or are you talking exclusively about the defending people?

In any case, I don't see how this can be such a hard concept to grasp. The defenders in this case had a hit rating of 0%, which means they hit nothing, even though there were a lot of shots flying back and forth. This is quite terrible, and I fail to see what you hope to gain by tip-toeing around this fact. I could take pretty much any fight from any Trek series that features a similar amount of traded shots and the hit rate would be higher then 0%.

Do you really need me to post an example of a fight with a higher hit rating in order to believe it? Here, a battle scene which is considered pretty much the worst offering Trek has, and would you look at that, a hit rating closer to 100% then 0%.

Or then we could do the opposite, we could look at high hit-ratings. The first battle in Enterprise that features the MACOs has them pulling off a 100% hit rating in a combat mission, and there are plenty of shots fired. Has there been any battle in SW history to shows a 100% hit rating, with an equal amount of shots fired?

Yet they are effective against the Federaion. So your claim of their superior accuracy falls flat.

Alright, pick a combat scene against Klingons and we'll compare Starfleet accuracy in that fight against that of stormtroopers, rebels, clonetroopers and droids. I can guarantee you that I will find 5 lower showings (minimum) on the side of Star Wars.

Until you provide your chosen scene, let's look at another low-point in accuracy for ST, Way of the Warrior. Like I said, it's one of the worst showings and commonly mocked... yet accuracy is pretty close to 100% for all sides involved.

You claimed Federation range and accuracy is vastly superior. Prove it then.

I already showed you two examples of superior aim on ST's side, and those battles are commonly considered the worst ST has to offer. And should you decide to stop stalling anytime soon and post the lowest showing on Trek's side you can think of, I'll give you five more even lower showings on SW's side.

tl;dr: ST has, and probably always will have, superior aim when compared to SW.

Do we know for sure that there were automated weapon systems. The triangular shaped things in the walls didn't shoot anything, neither did the blocky things dandling from the ceiling, which looked more like camera surveyance systems.
Besides plenty of fire was flying around, Chewie and co shot at the things in the wall early on, and who knows, perhaps the defense systems couldn't acquire Han and Luke because they wore stormtrooper suits, and detection systems were largely screwed up from the beginning. How are these defense systems supposed to recognize a good target anyway?
Could it filter out anyone who doesn't wear a stormtrooper suit but uses an Imperial weapon? A filter command that could only be overriden from the console, if only no one had shot the guys at sensor suites in the walls.

l33telboi wrote:First of all I'd point out that it sounds a bit silly when you say that automated defenses are 'surprised'. That'd make sense if the defenses failed to activate or something, but that's not the case. Or are you talking exclusively about the defending people?

In any case, I don't see how this can be such a hard concept to grasp. The defenders in this case had a hit rating of 0%, which means they hit nothing, even though there were a lot of shots flying back and forth. This is quite terrible, and I fail to see what you hope to gain by tip-toeing around this fact. I could take pretty much any fight from any Trek series that features a similar amount of traded shots and the hit rate would be higher then 0%.

Do you really need me to post an example of a fight with a higher hit rating in order to believe it? Here, a battle scene which is considered pretty much the worst offering Trek has, and would you look at that, a hit rating closer to 100% then 0%.

Or then we could do the opposite, we could look at high hit-ratings. The first battle in Enterprise that features the MACOs has them pulling off a 100% hit rating in a combat mission, and there are plenty of shots fired. Has there been any battle in SW history to shows a 100% hit rating, with an equal amount of shots fired?

So automatic defenses can't miss or be surprised? Better call in Pentagon and have them scrap the ABM missile shield then. The video you posted is useless. Camera is constantly changing angles and zooming on Siskos face as he is shooting. There is no way to tell their accuracy. They knew Jem'Hadar were coming and were entrenched, the guys in prison had no idea what hit them. Again you are taking a few chaotic battle scenes and pretending you can actually gauge accuracy out of them. Nevermind that you never even attempted to present the actual data like distance, actual accuracy rate, target movement, terrain etc etc.
Again nothing I've seen suggests that Federation troops have better accuracy than Stormtroopers.

l33telboi wrote:Alright, pick a combat scene against Klingons and we'll compare Starfleet accuracy in that fight against that of stormtroopers, rebels, clonetroopers and droids. I can guarantee you that I will find 5 lower showings (minimum) on the side of Star Wars.

Until you provide your chosen scene, let's look at another low-point in accuracy for ST, Way of the Warrior. Like I said, it's one of the worst showings and commonly mocked... yet accuracy is pretty close to 100% for all sides involved.

Except of course it's easier to shoot at someone holding still in the middle of a room carrying a sword then someone actually shooting back isn't it? They beamed grouped together in the middle of the room standing there stupidly with their swords and the surrounding Starfleet officers mowed them down with their phaser standing not 4m away. Whoop-de-do. It's not exactly the same as you are actually exchanging fire with someone.
I guess Garak's accuracy rate when he easily mows down the moronic Klingons rushing into a narrow corridor with their swords is also a demonstration of superior Cardassia aiming skills.

Right, posting movies which show firefights in which the UFP manages to hit stuff does not count as evidence for the claim 'they can hit stuff'. As opposed to the ever-accurate clone/storm troopers I suppose, which just about always miss everything all the time. Including stationary targets I might add.

So why am I not surprised your stance is that the UFP is no more accurate than the "we're so bad at shooting stuff our aiming 'abilities' have been parodied in Spaceballs"-crew?

Oh wait, thats because of the 'the automated defenses where surprised' nonsense you've been spouting. I suppose the computer just didn't have it's day. Maybe it was busy watching Friends on channel 235?

Heck, we can build auto-aiming guns that outperform that downright pathetic showing right now. No need for SF tech to do it.