TDiC Firepower Versus SW ICS Firepower Deathmatch!

[Mike DiCenso]

Okay, listen up carefully, kids. No arguements about the canon validity!!! This is strictly a what-if scenario of which side would win given the upper level firepower these two examples in ship-to-ship combat. For range, we can assume the 82 A.U. minimum range for torpedoes as per ST:TMP and the ICS 10 light-minute range for TLs. That being said, we can assume two scenarios:

1.) Single ship-to-ship combat. An ISD meets up with a D'Deridex warbird.


2.) Fleet combat. For our purposes modest sized fleets of 20 or so vessels on each side.

For FTL, either side gets their upper limits, so ST gets the ST:2009, "That Which Survives", and "The Chase" level speeds of 800,000-1,000,000c range speeds, while SW gets whatever speeds lets them cross the galaxy in hours or days.

Now, who wins and why?
-Mike

[Roondar]

Okay, listen up carefully, kids. No arguements about the canon validity!!! This is strictly a what-if scenario of which side would win given the upper level firepower these two examples in ship-to-ship combat. For range, we can assume the 82 A.U. minimum range for torpedoes as per ST:TMP and the ICS 10 light-minute range for TLs. That being said, we can assume two scenarios:

1.) Single ship-to-ship combat. An ISD meets up with a D'Deridex warbird.


2.) Fleet combat. For our purposes modest sized fleets of 20 or so vessels on each side.

For FTL, either side gets their upper limits, so ST gets the ST:2009, "That Which Survives", and "The Chase" level speeds of 800,00-1,000,000c range speeds, which SW gets whatever speeds lets them cross the galaxy in hours or days.

Now, who wins and why?
-Mike

#1) Let's see... What was it - teratons of firepower in the ICS? TDiC was quite a bit below that IIRC.

#2) The small ship piloted by Nog, carrying his family, Jake Sisko, Wesley Crusher, Neelix, The Borg kids, Jar Jar, the young -and especially irritating- anakin, a couple of tribbles and C3PO.

No matter how hard you try, you just can't kill them

Edit: just in case this was not clear, I meant all of them are in the same ship. Oh joy of joys. I'm figuring the Empire/Rebels and Federation/etc will band together trying to kill them, nearly destroying the universe in the process but still failing.

[sonofccn]

1.) Single ship-to-ship combat. An ISD meets up with a D'Deridex warbird.

1A. The Romulan warbird has a cloak.
1B. ISD's have no rear gunnery worth mentioning
1C. ISD's wallow like garbage scows.
1D. D'deridex takes it by decloaking behind and blasting the Imperial scum.

2.) Fleet combat. For our purposes modest sized fleets of 20 or so vessels on each side.

I think it would be a hectic fight but I'd give it to the imperials and their heavier guns (ICS teratons vs TDIC gigatons IIRC) and by extension heavier shields.

[Airlocke_Jedi_Knight]

1.) Single ship-to-ship combat. An ISD meets up with a D'Deridex warbird.

1A. The Romulan warbird has a cloak.
1B. ISD's have no rear gunnery worth mentioning
1C. ISD's wallow like garbage scows.
1D. D'deridex takes it by decloaking behind and blasting the Imperial scum.

2.) Fleet combat. For our purposes modest sized fleets of 20 or so vessels on each side.

I think it would be a hectic fight but I'd give it to the imperials and their heavier guns (ICS teratons vs TDIC gigatons IIRC) and by extension heavier shields.

I'm sorry, I just cannot help but snicker. You mention a hectic fight, then throw in that one side is pushing out teratons, and the other gigatons. In case you weren't aware, that is a 1000-1 advantage for the ICS numbers...Just saying, that seems like a bit of a contradiction.

Anyway, barring something like a cloaked attack at the rear of an ISD, ICS SW simply has too much firepower and shielding. One thing ST has to it's advantage, though, are techno-babble solutions. Techno-babble might help a little bit, and possible turn the tides of a battle or two, but ICS SW ultimately takes it.

Don't know why it matters, though. ICS numbers are trash...

[sonofccn]

I'm sorry, I just cannot help but snicker. You mention a hectic fight, then throw in that one side is pushing out teratons, and the other gigatons. In case you weren't aware, that is a 1000-1 advantage for the ICS numbers...Just saying, that seems like a bit of a contradiction.

I am aware of the magnitude difference. One side has heavy guns and shields, the other maneuverability, and cloaking capability. The Romulans are going to hit the Imperials a lot but have to in order to beat down their shields while the Imperials, less agile warships with more limited firing arcs, are going to hit far less but only are going to need to connect a couple of shots to down the warbirds. In the end the ISD's strength will see them to victory but it won't be a bloodless or easy victory.

[Enterprise E]

I'm not so sure that there is all that much of a difference in firepower. I've read calcs on ditl.org that the 24 gigatons, or so, for TDIC bombardment was only the lowest end figure possible. The highest end figure was so high that it would have blown away even the ICS figures. I've seen average figures get into the low teraton range for the torpedoes, which would make them comparable, blast for blast, vs. the turbolasers of a Star Destroyer. Also, the ICS only gave 200 gigatons per shot for a quad turbolaser of an Acclamator. That, to me, indicates that a single bolt is only about 50 gigatons. Also, we never got any direct firepower figures, that I know of, for an Imperial Star Destroyer. It was all guesswork from trying to extrapolate firepowers compared to the ICS firepower, in which a high gigaton, to possibly low teraton blast is not too unreasonable. It is going to come down to superior overall firepower and possibly shielding, if there is no ray/particle shield split, which would not go well for the Star Destroyer given that starfighter weapons can damage capital ships, vs. superior sublight speed and maneuverability of the Romulan Warbird, though it may not be as great as initially thought given that most of the Warbird's weapons are in the forward firing arc.

[Praeothmin]

By the way, Enterprise-E, the calcs at DITL.org are to estimate the Torpedo firepower.
The low-end calcs mean that Torpedoes are only 24 Gigatons, but he assumed the Torpedoes only did 10% of the damage, and to get that "measly" 24 Gigaton figure, he had to bend the description of the damage done to an unsupported level ("destroyed" meaning only craters and brushfire instead of having pierced the crust)...

So TiDC does indeed show very high firepower for ST vessels, comparable, if not superior, to an ISD...

[Mr. Oragahn]

ROTS:ICS gives Venators a power capacity above 840 teratons per second, with all power derivable to all guns.
An ISD will probably tickle the petaton range.

D'Deridex Torps would need to be awfully powerful, which even assuming the bizarre effects are explosions, would still be too short.
Now, the SW shields have a wattage rating, and a torp may have a yield of X joules, but it's likely going to deliver its energy over several microseconds or perhaps even microseconds.
This should fill the capacitors rather rapidly, but probably be awfully short of actually filling them up the neck until the capacitor burns.

[sonofccn]

ROTS:ICS gives Venators a power capacity above 840 teratons per second, with all power derivable to all guns.
An ISD will probably tickle the petaton range.

That's total power for the ship right and divided between the guns? Wookiepedia suggests the Venator has eight heavy turbolasers, 2 medium, and an unknown number of light guns. That suggests 105 TT to 84 TT per cannon depending if you include the medium cannons in the division. On Trek side DITL's high end calc for TDIC places torpedoes at 20 billion megatons which should be 20 PT if I didn't misplace a zero. Now granted he went all out assuming the torpedoes were going to contribute 100% of the damage etc but comparable yields are possible with TDIC.

[Mr. Oragahn]

20 PT, that's too high. It's not because we're going full wank that we have to forget that Trek forces use weapons that can eat matter with inputs of energy inferior to what you'd expect for melting and vapourization.
Destroying the crust in little time would obviously be also achieved by disruptors.

[Mike DiCenso]

20 PT, that's too high. It's not because we're going full wank that we have to forget that Trek forces use weapons that can eat matter with inputs of energy inferior to what you'd expect for melting and vapourization

.

That's not outside the range of photon torpedoes, especially those making use of exotic reactants in the warheads, like the ultra-dense deuterium that would allow 130 metric tonnes to be carried in a 10 cubic cm volume. With that density, a torp could manage 5.55 PT per shot, and that only assumes that the thing is carrying only that much ultra-dense matter and antimatter. As we've seen with torpedo warheads, they have enough volume to contain an order of magnitude or more of that much reactant in them.

Destroying the crust in little time would obviously be also achieved by disruptors.

Your premise that phasers and disruptors use less energy that is required not bourne out by an canon on-screen evidence. If anything, the indications are that phasers and disruptors use a fairly large amount of energy. A phaser rifle was continously putting out 1.05 megawatts with no discernable effort. A Breen rifle no bigger than a real-life bazooka was capable of 4.6 gigajoules, a small phaser bank was 4.2 gigawatts, and the second largest phaser array on the E-D had a potential power variance of 60 gigawatts.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

#2) The small ship piloted by Nog, carrying his family, Jake Sisko, Wesley Crusher, Neelix, The Borg kids, Jar Jar, the young -and especially irritating- anakin, a couple of tribbles and C3PO.

No matter how hard you try, you just can't kill them

No appealing to character shields, Mary Sues/Marty Stus and deus ex machinas!
-Mike

[sonofccn]

20 PT, that's too high. It's not because we're going full wank that we have to forget that Trek forces use weapons that can eat matter with inputs of energy inferior to what you'd expect for melting and vapourization.
Destroying the crust in little time would obviously be also achieved by disruptors.

Well it was a "as high as we can possible go for torpedo figure" to create a maximum upper limit however considering they fired torpedoes would imply that they were doing some of the damage. Even if we were to assume they were only going to contribute a quarter of the total energy needed to vaporise the mantel,questioning why they bothered to use them, we'd still be in the single digit PT range for a lower, through still very high end, calc. That is still plenty high enough to be comparable to the ICS scale yields unless an ISD is massively more powerful than a twenty year old warship.

Now that's the upper bracket with the lower being double digit gigatons. Just about any figure in between can be claimed depending on how generous you want to be. Now personally I lean towards gigatons because I think that would make the fight more fun, to me the closer the two forces are in terms of firepower the worse Wars does losing much of it's advantage. Well that's my two cents on the subject.

[Mr. Oragahn]

The issue of D'Deridex I suppose is that they have less weapon banks than Star Destroyers.
That said, SDs have a massive blind cone, both underneath and, to a lesser degree, on their stern.
Oh and above them, since there's no evidence that the cannons can point up.

The TDiC fleet has the advantage of surprise, if only they spend enough time to observing the enemy, they can see what's the better angle of approach.

That said, the timeframe will be tight. With thousands of gees of accel, the ISD will quickly spin around and point its guns in the right direction and spam the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order ships.

Depending on the premise and awareness of both fleets, it could be that the Empire doesn't even know about the enemy and so, ships would have not their shields up.
Their armour would certainly suck up part of the energy, but would fail promptly to long range disruptors and torpedoes.

If the Trek fleet doesn't act stupid, it can get down many ISDs and compensate the fewer guns with greater number and finish off the rest of the Imperial fleet.

I'm going to give it to Trek. It has the tactical advantage at hand.

[Roondar]

#2) The small ship piloted by Nog, carrying his family, Jake Sisko, Wesley Crusher, Neelix, The Borg kids, Jar Jar, the young -and especially irritating- anakin, a couple of tribbles and C3PO.

No matter how hard you try, you just can't kill them

No appealing to character shields, Mary Sues/Marty Stus and deus ex machinas!
-Mike

You're just upset I'm right ;)