Starfleet Jedi

While perusing through the latest information on the Star Trek XI official website, I came across a dossier file about the Federation; it mentions that the Federation (at the time of Captain Pike and young Kirk) consists of 120 member planets and 700 colonies.

If this number gets mentioned anywhere in the movie, it would go substantially towards validating what we have been advocating for many years, that there are more than 150 member worlds and hundreds, if not thousands of colony worlds making up the Federation, and not a merely 150 planets total as some rabid Warsie types would have everyone believe. This number also fits in extremely well with Kirk's "We're on a thousand planets" quote from the TOS episode "Metamorphosis". It may also match up pretty well with the 900 billion casualty figures from DS9's "Statistical Probabilities" that the Jack Pack and Doctor Bashir calculate for Federation losses if it keeps fighting the Dominion.
-Mike

Interesting> Despite being one of the aformentioned Wars fans, though not a part of the SDN nutcases, I am with you on the size of the Federation, I actually think a thousand worlds, even two thousand worlds, is kinda small for 'modern' (DS9/Voyager) era.

Neat find, but I would argue:

1. We don't need it, since we already had Kirk's 1000 and the FC 150 members.

2. This is a new timeline altogether. Consider all the changes, even pre-Kirk, that could come from such alterations. Even removing the temporal fiddling from First Contact could alter all sorts of things.

Mike DiCenso wrote:While perusing through the latest information on the Star Trek XI official website, I came across a dossier file about the Federation; it mentions that the Federation (at the time of Captain Pike and young Kirk) consists of 120 member planets and 700 colonies.

If this number gets mentioned anywhere in the movie, it would go substantially towards validating what we have been advocating for many years, that there are more than 150 member worlds and hundreds, if not thousands of colony worlds making up the Federation, and not a merely 150 planets total as some rabid Warsie types would have everyone believe. This number also fits in extremely well with Kirk's "We're on a thousand planets" quote from the TOS episode "Metamorphosis". It may also match up pretty well with the 900 billion casualty figures from DS9's "Statistical Probabilities" that the Jack Pack and Doctor Bashir calculate for Federation losses if it keeps fighting the Dominion.
-Mike

I'd point out that the 900 billion thing does not need such numbers of planets and colonies. As proved in the other thread, there's that massively populated planet of quasi-humans which, alone, would in theory account for maany billions.
Not to say that it was also proved that 900 billion could very well be a total figure across decades, not a count of every single head at a given time X of the UFP.

2046 wrote:Neat find, but I would argue:

1. We don't need it, since we already had Kirk's 1000 and the FC 150 members.

2. This is a new timeline altogether. Consider all the changes, even pre-Kirk, that could come from such alterations. Even removing the temporal fiddling from First Contact could alter all sorts of things.

Yes, but I would counter that it helps to provide a better and more specific context for Kirk and Picard's quotes about the size of the Federation. In this case we now understand what Kirk is telling Cochrane. It does tend to diminish the Federation numbers somewhat since it specifically indicates 120 member worlds and 700 colony worlds. But it goes a long way towards making it clear that Picard in ST:FC is speaking very specifically about member worlds, not worlds as a whole; colonies, protectorates, etc, and so it is impossible now to reduce the Federation to less than a thousand planets.

The alternate timeline thing is a factor to be sure, but it is really amazing how well the numbers line up regardless here. Clearly whoever is responsible for it did a little bit of research.
-Mike

Mr. Oragahn wrote: I'd point out that the 900 billion thing does not need such numbers of planets and colonies. As proved in the other thread, there's that massively populated planet of quasi-humans which, alone, would in theory account for many billions.
Not to say that it was also proved that 900 billion could very well be a total figure across decades, not a count of every single head at a given time X of the UFP.

No it does not, but with this information it goes a long, long way towards understanding it better. Also, in the case of Gideon, that world was never stated to join the Federation after it got what it needed to bring it's population under control. Even if it did join, it isn't all that likely that once the Vegan choriomeningitis pathogen was introduced, the Gideon population stayed at it's ridiculously high levels so that over a century later, Gideon has something closer to normal population levels.
-Mike

Mike DiCenso wrote:While perusing through the latest information on the Star Trek XI official website, I came across a dossier file about the Federation; it mentions that the Federation (at the time of Captain Pike and young Kirk) consists of 120 member planets and 700 colonies.

If this number gets mentioned anywhere in the movie, it would go substantially towards validating what we have been advocating for many years, that there are more than 150 member worlds and hundreds, if not thousands of colony worlds making up the Federation, and not a merely 150 planets total as some rabid Warsie types would have everyone believe. This number also fits in extremely well with Kirk's "We're on a thousand planets" quote from the TOS episode "Metamorphosis". It may also match up pretty well with the 900 billion casualty figures from DS9's "Statistical Probabilities" that the Jack Pack and Doctor Bashir calculate for Federation losses if it keeps fighting the Dominion.
-Mike

It might not be stated onscreen, but something like that display might be visible somewhere as an Okudagram. If it becomes canonical, it would be a pretty important piece of information regarding the rate of growth of the Federation.

Which would make it very different from what I've been claiming seems most likely, but we'll see what happens.

Jedi Master Spock wrote: Which would make it very different from what I've been claiming seems most likely, but we'll see what happens.

Could you please elaborate some on these differences?
-Mike

As exhibited here, I've generally been of the opinion that - based mainly on "Yesterday's Enterprise," the NCC catalog numbers, and a few snapshots of Federation membership - that the UFP is in a high-growth, high-expansion era, adding members at a swift rate since the most recent period of peace with the Klingon Empire started.

If the Federation has 120 members as of the Captain Pike era (~2250) and not much over 150 members in ST:FC, that means the main growth period of the Federation was early, rather than later. I've been assuming TOS era membership to be closer to 50, and that the Federation membership list grows roughly exponentially.

This would suggest more of a logistic model, with peak growth happening somewhere around 2200 - meaning that the Federation is both growing more slowly than I thought, and that the Federation has more members for pretty much all of the pre-ST:FC era than I had thought. For example, I assumed the Federation didn't attain 120 members until the TNG era.

The member number doesn't give us all that much in terms of identifying the overall population/industrial capacity/number of worlds in the Federation. It could have been (and I get this idea, but I haven't seen enough of Enterprise to back it up) that the early and pre-Federation was more interested in exploration and making first contact than rapidly expanding their territory. There could be a considerable "filling out" period where most of the advanced species were already contacted and joined if they were into it, and the neighboring systems were colonized and developed.

CrippledVulture wrote:The member number doesn't give us all that much in terms of identifying the overall population/industrial capacity/number of worlds in the Federation. It could have been (and I get this idea, but I haven't seen enough of Enterprise to back it up) that the early and pre-Federation was more interested in exploration and making first contact than rapidly expanding their territory. There could be a considerable "filling out" period where most of the advanced species were already contacted and joined if they were into it, and the neighboring systems were colonized and developed.

The whole point is to distinguish member worlds from colony worlds making up the Federation, and use that to combat those who would say that the Federation has a 100 or so planets total, members and colonies combined. What we know by this information from the website is that the thinking behind the scenes is that there are 100 some-odd members in the Federation, and then in addition hundreds of colony worlds.
-Mike

Jedi Master Spock wrote:As exhibited here, I've generally been of the opinion that - based mainly on "Yesterday's Enterprise," the NCC catalog numbers, and a few snapshots of Federation membership - that the UFP is in a high-growth, high-expansion era, adding members at a swift rate since the most recent period of peace with the Klingon Empire started.

If the Federation has 120 members as of the Captain Pike era (~2250) and not much over 150 members in ST:FC, that means the main growth period of the Federation was early, rather than later. I've been assuming TOS era membership to be closer to 50, and that the Federation membership list grows roughly exponentially.

This would suggest more of a logistic model, with peak growth happening somewhere around 2200 - meaning that the Federation is both growing more slowly than I thought, and that the Federation has more members for pretty much all of the pre-ST:FC era than I had thought. For example, I assumed the Federation didn't attain 120 members until the TNG era.

Ah I see. I would remind you though that this is in an alternate timeline, so we may actually be seeing an accelerated Federation membership growth that may, in fact, lead to a vastly larger Federation by the 24th century. Say, about 200 or more member worlds and 10,000 colonies.

If there is indeed a slow-down, it may be due to peace with the Klingons and the withdrawal and isolation of the Romulans. There is also another possible factor; that the standards for admission to the Federation also got stricter, perhaps owing to the events on Ardana as seen in "The Cloud Minders" with it's caste system that is at odds with the practices of the Federation as a whole, or even the need to slow down Federation growth to managable levels as it is more difficult to maintain and defend a Federation now spanning many thousands of light years.
-Mike

2046 wrote: Neat find, but I would argue:

1. We don't need it, since we already had Kirk's 1000 and the FC 150 members.

I would argue in return that this helps solidify Kirk and Picard's statements, and is highly useful in countering those who would claim that between TOS and TNG that the Federation somehow lost hundreds of planets.

2046 wrote:2. This is a new timeline altogether. Consider all the changes, even pre-Kirk, that could come from such alterations. Even removing the temporal fiddling from First Contact could alter all sorts of things.

Yes, it is. It is also the one that we must be dealing with from now on in the franchise, baring that things don't get at least partially reset after Nero's defeat. We probably are seeing a somewhat more rapidly expanding Federation here, and we may see a much larger Federation in the TNG era now as a result.
-Mike

Dabat wrote:Interesting> Despite being one of the aformentioned Wars fans, though not a part of the SDN nutcases, I am with you on the size of the Federation, I actually think a thousand worlds, even two thousand worlds, is kinda small for 'modern' (DS9/Voyager) era.

Trust me, Dabat... you're not a Rabid Warsie, though a Star Wars fan you may be. ;-)
-Mike