Starfleet Jedi

Before he went Vader, where did he stand? I know the movies never said and I don't remember the movie novels ever saying. Was there anything in the EU? Was he more material, like the Jin-Kenobi line was or of the more spiritual side of the Yoda line?

Since Lucas has stated that Anakin "could not let go of things" as the reason that he fell to the Dark Side of the Force that he probably is very much along the materialistic and emotional bent.
-Mike

I always found it interesting how he tells Palpy that he knows there are things about the Force the Jedi arent telling him, never once thinking that as strong as he is with the Force he may be able to detect things other Jedi cant.

I think he was more whiny, like the Emo-side of the Force... :)

Seriously, I've never been able to like Anakin.
He's an arrogant, whiny bi***, who just can't accept any kind of criticism, doesn't like to take orders, and doesn't care one bit about others.
How that pussy could become the incarnation of Fear itself, Darth Vader, and even more importantly, how Darth Vader could even be redeemed, I no longer understand since the prequels...

Praeothmin wrote:I think he was more whiny, like the Emo-side of the Force... :)

Seriously, I've never been able to like Anakin.
He's an arrogant, whiny bi***, who just can't accept any kind of criticism, doesn't like to take orders, and doesn't care one bit about others.
How that pussy could become the incarnation of Fear itself, Darth Vader, and even more importantly, how Darth Vader could even be redeemed, I no longer understand since the prequels...

I must admit that I had some trouble there as well. True, in the end he chooses his sons life over the emperor but is that really such a good deed it deserves redemption for the literally billions of people he killed?

Consider real world 'villains'. They usually are nice to their relatives too, that doesn't mean they suddenly become nice people tho or that the fact they protect their children is enough to redeem them from the horrors they bring.

Now, it made for a nice bit of drama (as far as such things go in Starwars anyway) but I'm not convinced a single, predictable action can undo decades of terror.

It's more likely the point is that it was a turning point that leads him to another path, even if he dies right after. Nothing more.

Oh, I've never had any issues with Vader before the Prequels came out.

From all we'd heard, Anakin Skywalker was a great hero and General in the Clone Wars, not the whiny, Emo pu**y we've been shown.

Vader the Hero become scary Dark Lord become Hero again, I had no issues with.

Vader the whiny piss-poor excuse for a Jedi whiney twerp become scary Dark Lord become Hero again, I have all the trouble in the world with.

All through the Prequels, all I could think off was "Please, kill Anakin and let Obi-Wan be the Hero!"...

i thought obi-wan WAS the hero

Roondar wrote:

Praeothmin wrote:I think he was more whiny, like the Emo-side of the Force... :)

Seriously, I've never been able to like Anakin.
He's an arrogant, whiny bi***, who just can't accept any kind of criticism, doesn't like to take orders, and doesn't care one bit about others.
How that pussy could become the incarnation of Fear itself, Darth Vader, and even more importantly, how Darth Vader could even be redeemed, I no longer understand since the prequels...

I must admit that I had some trouble there as well. True, in the end he chooses his sons life over the emperor but is that really such a good deed it deserves redemption for the literally billions of people he killed?

You know, this criticism was found in that article against Star Wars, about how it idealizes the ruling of genetically superior elites which should be excuses any massacre because one day, they may save one life.

Then of course you add the Force, and all life and Force are connected, and you don't know if by destroying life, you damage the Force, or if you only end its material incarnation and then lifeforms fuse with the Force.

The second option is probably the only and much less shocking one.

It's like excusing Mao because at some point, he put a suffocating red fish back into a fish tank.

mojo wrote:i thought obi-wan WAS the hero

Neither did I. I think he pretty much was extremely flawed from get go.
Maybe this was due to him losing Qui-Gon Jinn, since Jedi dying before old age was rare, but even without the prequels, someone once said that Yoda and Obi-Wan were hellbent on giving Luke the basic minimal training and transforming him into a Jedi assassin, with the hidden reality that it was a no return mission.
Luke, however, was not supposed to leave so soon. It's probably better that he did and left his emotions speak, thus close the Qui-Gon Jinn cycle, who had a more grayish view of the Force and the balance.

Mr. Oragahn wrote: It's like excusing Mao because at some point, he put a suffocating red fish back into a fish tank.

Or excusing Adolf Hitler because he did a few good deeds, like building the Autobahn, practicing vegetarianism because he thought that eating meat was cruel to animals, and so on.... If you look hard enough you can likely find some positive trait or act by some historical or current villain.
-Mike

Praeothmin wrote:I think he was more whiny, like the Emo-side of the Force... :)

Seriously, I've never been able to like Anakin.
He's an arrogant, whiny bi***, who just can't accept any kind of criticism, doesn't like to take orders, and doesn't care one bit about others.
How that pussy could become the incarnation of Fear itself, Darth Vader, and even more importantly, how Darth Vader could even be redeemed, I no longer understand since the prequels...

He did kill countless hundreds if not thousands and he started his slaughter with children as I recall so yes you are right he was basically beyond redemption. The only thing human left in him was the longing for his family his son etc which is what Luke used to lure him back to the light and even that failed until Anakin realized he was about to let Palpy kill his own flesh and blood, probably even then he did it out of fear of losing someone again oh well..

Mr. Oragahn wrote:

mojo wrote:i thought obi-wan WAS the hero

...someone once said that Yoda and Obi-Wan were hellbent on giving Luke the basic minimal training and transforming him into a Jedi assassin, with the hidden reality that it was a no return mission.

i would LOVE to know where you read that, because Air and i have debated that ourselves.

mojo wrote:

Mr. Oragahn wrote:

mojo wrote:i thought obi-wan WAS the hero

...someone once said that Yoda and Obi-Wan were hellbent on giving Luke the basic minimal training and transforming him into a Jedi assassin, with the hidden reality that it was a no return mission.

i would LOVE to know where you read that, because Air and i have debated that ourselves.

Aww I'm sorry, I can't remember. It's one of those casual critics (not the stuff you find here) which had an axe to grind about the twisted morale of Star Wars, the kind of criticism heavily attacked by SW fans.
It really talked about how GL says a few genetically chosen kings, demigods, with supernatural power shape the galaxy and more, and deciding for the lives of the lowly without to have to answer to anyone much.

Wait, I'm not even sure this is the right source. Anyway, I know I've read about the Jedi assassin outside of TheForce.net, Starwars.com, Spacebattles.com, StarDestroyer.net or anything other site of this kind.

I believe you're referring to David Brin and his interesting articles he wrote for Salon on the morality that he believes Star Wars portrays. The first article was written in a comparison with Trek, hence the title "Star Wars Despots versus Star Trek Populists". Star Wars in his view can be largely summarized this way:


Elites have an inherent right to arbitrary rule; common citizens needn't be consulted. They may only choose which elite to follow.


* "Good" elites should act on their subjective whims, without evidence, argument or accountability.


* Any amount of sin can be forgiven if you are important enough.


* True leaders are born. It's genetic. The right to rule is inherited.


* Justified human emotions can turn a good person evil

He's also right about another thing; The movies are so bereft of ideas that in three out of six of them the storyline involves some good guys in their little fighters blowing up the Big Bad Superweapon (apply this also to TCW and the Malevolence story arc).
-Mike