Starfleet Jedi

JMS wrote: I say the Empire has a larger and more powerful army and navy. I don't think the EU figure of 25.000 Star Destroyers seems that unreasonable at all.

I have issues with these numbers for the simple reason that in RotJ, the entire Rebel fleet, comprised of perhaps 30 Capital ships, was considered as a pain in the neck for the Empire.
To ensure victory, the Empire sent 30-40 ships, no more.
Why not send 100, just to be sure?
If you have 25 000 ISDs, meaning you have millions of smaller ships, then 100 would not be much to send, and would indeed ensure that even a suicide run in your fleet by the rebels means absolute doom for the Rebels, not the vistory the Rebels had...

Praeothmin wrote:

JMS wrote: I say the Empire has a larger and more powerful army and navy. I don't think the EU figure of 25.000 Star Destroyers seems that unreasonable at all.

I have issues with these numbers for the simple reason that in RotJ, the entire Rebel fleet, comprised of perhaps 30 Capital ships, was considered as a pain in the neck for the Empire.
To ensure victory, the Empire sent 30-40 ships, no more.
Why not send 100, just to be sure?
If you have 25 000 ISDs, meaning you have millions of smaller ships, then 100 would not be much to send, and would indeed ensure that even a suicide run in your fleet by the rebels means absolute doom for the Rebels, not the vistory the Rebels had...

I don't think 25,000 SDs really means many millions of smaller ships, nor are the many smaller ships really expected to do anything in major actions. The Empire's doctrine is centered around Star Destroyers.

As far as I'm concerned, the probable 25,000 includes all SDs, including older models that might really be considered more of a reserve force.
If you think about it, 1,000,000 systems to 25,000 SDs means that 40 SDs represent the allocation for 1600 systems - and we see at Endor the newest models of SD.

Account for refit cycles, mission cycles, other downtime, and the possibility that there might be a number of older SDs in the fleet that are basically on reserve status (EU Victories about a fifth the size, ROTS Venators half the size, if you believe the official scalings), the presence of the Executor, and the force at Endor could easily amount to more than 1% of the Empire's active conventional naval displacement.

For something with as many brushfires to put out as the Empire, that's not such a small force to throw in the field on a lark.

It would be clear that the term Star Destroyer covers ALL types of SDs, and depending on the nomenclature you adopt (if it includes even the Executor), it can be greater.

One of the EU sources depicts a large military parade over the main city of Anaxes, and in the middle of it, amid a sea of TIE fighters and other typical Imperial crafts, the recognizable silhouette of the imposing Acclamator.

It includes other smaller SDs, which specialize in navigational interdiction, troop carriage and communication.

So I was looking through Wookieepedia, and it seems I've missed some new developments in Star Destroyer classification. The article is currently in a Saxtonite state, claiming that "Star Destroyers" are medium-sized and analogous to destroyers, but it has a couple interesting entries.

Apparently some new small Star Destroyers have been showing up recently - the 500m Gladiator class has been statted out recently (but is based on a ship that showed up back in the Droids animated TV show) and an unnamed class of intermediate Venator-like SD also showed up in TFU.

500 meters strikes me as particularly small relative to, say, the 1600m traditionally assigned to ISDs.

The article itself points to something particularly interesting:

On the commentary track of the Revenge of the Sith DVD, George Lucas referred to General Grievous's ship, a Providence-class carrier/destroyer, as a "Star Destroyer."

Regardless of what other odd small SDs we see, though, the OT and EU really do a good job of establishing the ISD as the Empire's favored class of SD during the OT era.

JMS wrote:I don't think 25,000 SDs really means many millions of smaller ships, nor are the many smaller ships really expected to do anything in major actions. The Empire's doctrine is centered around Star Destroyers.

We've seen many references in the EU to Carrack-class cruisers, Nebulon-B cruisers, etc... as being part of the Imperial fleet, that I doubt the Imperial fleet only has Star Destroyer-class ships, even lumping all the Star Destroyer types in the same category.
The EU, and even the movies, show us that planets have their own ships, their own Spaceforces, so although the Empire might have 25000 SD-type ships to "pacify" systems, they will still need the smaller type ships to patrol the systems while the SDs are elsewhere.
1 SD for 40 systems is not a lot, and even if your ships are more powerful then most of your opponents', you will still need local forces to patrol and prevent uprisings or attacks.
And, JMS, as you stated, while the Empire may have 25000 SDs, they may not all be spaceworthy, some might be mothballed, in refit, etc...
You still need other ship types, even if they are smaller...

Which again brings me to my first point:
If the Empire really had 25000 SDs, they should have been able to mobilize more then 30 ships against the Rebels, especially if the Hyperdrive speeds are so great, they could have brought in 100 ships in reinforcements from the closest systems, and had sent them back out right after the battle...
So, again, I doubt the 25000 SD number.

Praeothmin wrote:We've seen many references in the EU to Carrack-class cruisers, Nebulon-B cruisers, etc... as being part of the Imperial fleet, that I doubt the Imperial fleet only has Star Destroyer-class ships, even lumping all the Star Destroyer types in the same category.

All? No. Most of the fleet, by displacement? Yes. The largest non-SD ship in the standard Imperial order of battle, from what we've seen in the EU, is 600m long. Of these, the most powerrful is the Interdictor, which is about the same shape as the SDs, making it ~6% of the volume of the ship.

The Nebulon B and the Corellian Corvette (aka Rebel blockade runner) are listed on the ST-v-SW.net volumetrics page, and are less than 1% of the size of an ISD.

While it's clear that small patrol craft and bulk cruisers exist, we see ISDs more, both in the EU and in the movies. There are two conclusions we could draw from that:

• There aren't actually that many non-ISD warships running around under the Imperial banner.
• Non-ISD ships are rarely used in "important" actions.

In either case, the smaller ships aren't very relevant to looking at the Imperial Navy's total power and what sort of commitment the Endor fleet was.

The EU, and even the movies, show us that planets have their own ships, their own Spaceforces, so although the Empire might have 25000 SD-type ships to "pacify" systems, they will still need the smaller type ships to patrol the systems while the SDs are elsewhere.
1 SD for 40 systems is not a lot, and even if your ships are more powerful then most of your opponents', you will still need local forces to patrol and prevent uprisings or attacks.
And, JMS, as you stated, while the Empire may have 25000 SDs, they may not all be spaceworthy, some might be mothballed, in refit, etc...
You still need other ship types, even if they are smaller...

Which again brings me to my first point:
If the Empire really had 25000 SDs, they should have been able to mobilize more then 30 ships against the Rebels, especially if the Hyperdrive speeds are so great, they could have brought in 100 ships in reinforcements from the closest systems, and had sent them back out right after the battle...
So, again, I doubt the 25000 SD number.

And I don't agree that hyperdrive is all that super.

If your Empire is spread out across a galaxy, large or small, and your ships typically move around 1 million c - not a pessimistic estimate - then that's not at all a small commitment. Like I said, this could easily be over 1% of the Empire's active conventional naval displacement.

Let's run through a few figures.

Let IMJ be ISD-Masses, and say we have, by very rough estimation:

• 12 Executor sized SSDs, 250 IM each (3,000)
• A hundred of the persistently invisible 3.8 km SDs that Saxtonites keep claiming exist, 1300 at 13 ISD-weights each
• 15,000 ISDs.
• 4,000 Vistory class ships (700 IMs).
• 4,000 Venator class ships.(1600 IMs).
• 2,000 Gladiator escort SDs (60 IMs).
• One whole million smaller ships that are, on average, the size of a Nebulon-B (3440 IMs).

OK, in this case, our fleet is precisely 25,100 times the mass of an ISD, and this is a reasonably generous breakdown. If I monkey with the figures a little, I can quite reasonably get half of the displacement in ISDs, and the rest evenly split between smaller SDs, larger SDs, and small non-SD ships.

Now, let's say the Endor fleet includes 40 ISDs and the one SSD, which is probably around the median estimate. In that case, it's 290 IMs, or about 1.15% of the entire Imperial conventional fleet by displacement.

The Executor really counts for a lot here. It's huge, it's expensive, it's supposed to be an incredible warship. It was probably brought in place of a hundred additional ISDs, which could instead be keeping a hundred separate rebellious planets under close watch.

If you think of the SW galaxy as a little 10,000 LY diameter disk and essentially flat, i.e., a remarkably small galaxy, with ships evenly distributed, then a 114 LY radius (1 hours' travel at 1 million c) should have an extra 3-4 SDs in it.

Make the SW galaxy 100,000 light years across, and again assuming the local area has teh galactic average for ISD density, and expand to a day's travel radius at 1 million c, that's about 18-19 SDs. Endor is a fairly remote planet, so don't expect to have nearby SDs on patrol that could fly ovr in few minutes.

JMS wrote:While it's clear that small patrol craft and bulk cruisers exist, we see ISDs more, both in the EU and in the movies. There are two conclusions we could draw from that:


There aren't actually that many non-ISD warships running around under the Imperial banner.

Non-ISD ships are rarely used in "important" actions.

I do agree with this assessment, which can also imply that the Empire counts more on SDs to keep the peace then any other types of ships.
Since I believe in a small SW Galaxy (which would explain some speed issues), I don't believe in the 25 000 SD's.

Endor is a fairly remote planet, so don't expect to have nearby SDs on patrol that could fly ovr in few minutes.

Endor isn't SW's equivalent of Wolf359.
While in a state of panick, as a last minute effort, Starfleet was able to amass a fleet of 40 ships to try and fight the Borg.
While at Endor, the Emperor laid a trap for the entire Rebel fleet.
The trap was preplanned as said by the Emperor, and so if the Rebels were so dangerous, he should have had more SDs (if the 25000 ship figure is valid).
But he didn't...