Does the UFP use a LETS style economy?

Roondar · Post by **Roondar** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:31 am

Earlier today I was listening to a radio documentary about the financial crisis we find ourselves in today.

As a part of that show, they introced the LETS (Local Exchange Trading System) style economy.

Basically in LETS you don't have 'money' but you earn the 'right' to services from others in the LETS network by work/services or goods you provide. It's a kind of advanced bartering system.
(For more detailed info see this link).

The proponents argued that with modern technology such a system could be mostly transparant. I feel that with UFP level technology (plus some goverment backing obviously) this system could be completely transparent altogether. The upshot is that current day LETS systems can actually convert into money and back if needed on a pre-determined ratio and are, while less obviously so, still capitalistic in nature.

To me it seems to match what actually happens in Star Trek quite well.

So, is it possible that the UFP uses this style of 'currency' on a wide scale instead of money?

Post by **Mike DiCenso** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:41 pm

That certainly would fit in with what we see in some epsiodes, most notably in DS9 with Joseph Sisko's restaurant in New Orleans where the elder Sisko makes food for people who in turn might exchange other services and such for the effort.
-Mike

Mr. Oragahn · Post by **Mr. Oragahn** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:16 pm

LETS happens every day but states HATE it.

Repair my PC, I'll pick you up by car and take you to the station.
Sell me this, I'll cook that. Learn me this, I'll give you that and see for your family, etc.

The difficulty is that there's no centralized bureau where the values of good and services are agreed on on a daily basis.

Eventually, if public used such unionized bureaus to a greater degree, they could literally convene of the value of everything democratically, either in money, or in exchange of other goods and services which values would also be determined by these bureaus, led by the people.

Not too bad imho.

2046 · Post by **2046** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 3:24 am

Intriguing. Hard to tax, which of course is why states hate it.

Gives a meaning to the term "credit".

I am intrigued. Such a thing might be a part of the Federation economy.

Who is like God arbour · Post by **Who is like God arbour** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 9:30 am

2046 wrote:Intriguing. Hard to tax, which of course is why states hate it.

Is there a necessity for tax, if all employees of a state don't get money but the 'right' to services for their service for the community?

CrippledVulture · Post by **CrippledVulture** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 5:07 am

I think a major factor to consider is the technology, specifically energy generation and replicators. Where do they come from? Who is responsible for maintaining them? It's clear (to me at least) that the Federation has access to social and economic arrangements that would be impossible without the technological sophistication and specialization they seem to posses.

Whatever form of bartering, crediting, or meriting exists would likely be heavily influenced by whatever body makes the power and the replicators happen.

Is it the civilian government? Starfleet? A private business venture? The collective populous?

I don't know. Anyone have any insight from episodes?

PunkMaister · Post by **PunkMaister** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 5:42 am

CrippledVulture wrote:I think a major factor to consider is the technology, specifically energy generation and replicators. Where do they come from? Who is responsible for maintaining them? It's clear (to me at least) that the Federation has access to social and economic arrangements that would be impossible without the technological sophistication and specialization they seem to posses.

Whatever form of bartering, crediting, or meriting exists would likely be heavily influenced by whatever body makes the power and the replicators happen.

Is it the civilian government? Starfleet? A private business venture? The collective populous?

I don't know. Anyone have any insight from episodes?

Correct me if I am wrong but replicators do not make things whether food or machine parts out of thin air. It has to build/recreate whatever it is molecule by molecule by having the raw materials needed to materialize whatever the replicator ends up making which means there is probably a huge demand for raw materials. Coming to think of it in the show we see people getting food in plates and water/drinks etc in vases/cups and we never see what they do with those! Do they dematerialize or are they dumped into something that disassembles the refuse back into raw materials to be reused?

Anyhow the point is that if raw materials are needed there is obviously then some heavy trading going on in that arena. Not sure how the LET system would work in this case.

Who is like God arbour wrote:
2046 wrote:Intriguing. Hard to tax, which of course is why states hate it.
Is there a necessity for tax, if all employees of a state don't get money but the 'right' to services for their service for the community?

No taxes! Now that is something anybody would look forward too... :D

Roondar · Post by **Roondar** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 12:42 pm

PunkMaister wrote:
CrippledVulture wrote:I think a major factor to consider is the technology, specifically energy generation and replicators. Where do they come from? Who is responsible for maintaining them? It's clear (to me at least) that the Federation has access to social and economic arrangements that would be impossible without the technological sophistication and specialization they seem to posses.

Whatever form of bartering, crediting, or meriting exists would likely be heavily influenced by whatever body makes the power and the replicators happen.

Is it the civilian government? Starfleet? A private business venture? The collective populous?

I don't know. Anyone have any insight from episodes?
Correct me if I am wrong but replicators do not make things whether food or machine parts out of thin air. It has to build/recreate whatever it is molecule by molecule by having the raw materials needed to materialize whatever the replicator ends up making which means there is probably a huge demand for raw materials. Coming to think of it in the show we see people getting food in plates and water/drinks etc in vases/cups and we never see what they do with those! Do they dematerialize or are they dumped into something that disassembles the refuse back into raw materials to be reused?

Anyhow the point is that if raw materials are needed there is obviously then some heavy trading going on in that arena. Not sure how the LET system would work in this case.

We see several examples of people 'recycling' their food waste back into the replicator after they have eaten. It is not implied this is needed however and seems more of a convenience than anything else. Especially as we know using replicators (one way or the other) does use lots of energy.

On the other hand, I'm not so sure they need to have 'fitting' raw materials (other than energy obviously) to create stuff using replicators. Case in point is Voyagers episode in which they build the Delta Flyer. They specifically state they replicate the hull and other components.

This is interesting because it either implies starships leave spacedock with enough raw materials in stock to build pretty much whatever they want or that Voyager picked up those materials along the way.

The later seems rather unlikely however, given that they do spend ages looking for fuel and energy components (the subject of many an episode) but are not seen to trade for materials like Duranium or in fact minerals/raw resources in general.

This is not the only episode in which replicators are implied to use just energy. Just look at the STTNG one in which they meet Kevin Uxbridge. They give him a replicator to provide him with food etc and it is downright tiny for a device which would need matter as input.

The same with the stolen replicator from Voyager. The Kazon had tried to integrate it into their systems, again no matter reserves where talked about. (In fact, if it needed raw materials of the proper form to work then it would have been totally useless to the Kazon - they wanted it to solve their lack of resources, they had pretty much nothing)

Now, if the replicator only uses energy then it becomes rather simple: the Federation shows heavy use of 'free' energy through fusion power supplies. Suppose the state (i.e. the UFP) decides to give those out freely to power their economy. There, problem solved :P

More seriously, LETS can also work for raw materials: supply me with some unobtainium and you get <random service> in return.

Who is like God arbour wrote:
2046 wrote:Intriguing. Hard to tax, which of course is why states hate it.
Is there a necessity for tax, if all employees of a state don't get money but the 'right' to services for their service for the community?

No taxes! Now that is something anybody would look forward too... :D[/quote]

You can very easily 'tax' a computerized LETS system - for every x service 'credits' you earn, one of them goes to the government instead. Or alternatively: for every thing the state does it gets 'x' LETS service 'credits' to spend.

Obviously this doesn't work for current systems but that is mostly because money makes our world go round and not LETS :P

PunkMaister · Post by **PunkMaister** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 3:49 pm

That makes no sense whatsoever you require more than just energy to create something you cannot make something unless you have the raw materials even if it's molecule by freaking molecule as ST replicators seem to work. In Voyager I remember that the crw often tried to barter goods on the planets they landed for stuff they needed to get home and continue their voyage no pun intended.

Mr. Oragahn · Post by **Mr. Oragahn** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 4:39 pm

PunkMaister wrote:No taxes! Now that is something anybody would look forward too... :D

There's a blooming Middle East country of growing skyscrapers I think where taxes are very low and non existent in certain domains. Of course, it's a land of billionaires and oil Lords, so...

PunkMaister · Post by **PunkMaister** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 5:17 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
PunkMaister wrote:No taxes! Now that is something anybody would look forward too... :D
There's a blooming Middle East country of growing skyscrapers I think where taxes are very low and non existent in certain domains. Of course, it's a land of billionaires and oil Lords, so...

Yeah I do not think you can count the Middle East and it's strictly Oil alone financed economy, I'm betting that the whole region will revert to the stone age as soon as they run out of oil. Talk about placing all your eggs in one basket...

Flectarn · Post by **Flectarn** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:19 pm

PunkMaister wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
PunkMaister wrote:No taxes! Now that is something anybody would look forward too... :D
There's a blooming Middle East country of growing skyscrapers I think where taxes are very low and non existent in certain domains. Of course, it's a land of billionaires and oil Lords, so...
Yeah I do not think you can count the Middle East and it's strictly Oil alone financed economy, I'm betting that the whole region will revert to the stone age as soon as they run out of oil. Talk about placing all your eggs in one basket...

well they have at various times tried to diversify, for instance Saudi Arabia used to export wheat, more practically, Dubai is shaping up to be a major financial hub.

Cocytus · Post by **Cocytus** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:47 pm

PunkMaister wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
PunkMaister wrote:No taxes! Now that is something anybody would look forward too... :D
There's a blooming Middle East country of growing skyscrapers I think where taxes are very low and non existent in certain domains. Of course, it's a land of billionaires and oil Lords, so...
Yeah I do not think you can count the Middle East and it's strictly Oil alone financed economy, I'm betting that the whole region will revert to the stone age as soon as they run out of oil. Talk about placing all your eggs in one basket...

Some of those Middle East countries have already started diversifying their economies. The UAE, an OPEC member, is already doing so. Oil still plays a prominent role in the UAE economy, but Dubai, its largest city, derives only about 6% of its GDP from oil. The majority of it comes from tourism and financial services. Dubai is home to the world's largest mall and the Jebel Ali Free Zone, among others. Abu Dhabi, the wealthiest emirate, has more oil resources than Dubai and a larger percentage of its GDP comes from oil, but it is similarly diversifying its economy. Most of the seven emirates have a Free Zone similar to Jebel Ali in Dubai. Ras al Khaimah, one of the emirates with very little oil, instead supplies much of the country's cement (useful for all those supertowers going up in nearby Dubai.)

http://www.ameinfo.com/66981.html

http://www.oxfordbusinessgroup.com/publ ... country=57

Of course, even when we convert our grid to nuclear and renewables, (which will take quite a while) oil isn't going to go away. We'll still need it for all the plastics we make.

Roondar · Post by **Roondar** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:16 pm

PunkMaister wrote:That makes no sense whatsoever you require more than just energy to create something you cannot make something unless you have the raw materials even if it's molecule by freaking molecule as ST replicators seem to work. In Voyager I remember that the crw often tried to barter goods on the planets they landed for stuff they needed to get home and continue their voyage no pun intended.

Quite true, but they mostly seemed interested in fuel and similar stuff. Which is what I meant, they do barter for stuff, but it's either fuel or stuff to make sure they don't have to replicate because that takes too much energy.

Besides, that still leaves the 'where is all the raw matter then' question that is conveniently never answered on the show as they keep implying it's magical energy to matter conversion instead.

(like say their transporters, which also convert matter into energy and vice versa. The same transporters which can create duplicates without additional matter input. This again points to the UFP having the ability to convert energy into matter, albeit not faultlessly so)

On a side note, you do know that matter and energy are basically the same things (or rather are 'equivalent') in modern science don't you?