What if the Mirrorverse Terran Empire & the SW GE meet?

PunkMaister · Post by **PunkMaister** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:14 pm

So if these 2 empires ever met what would it be like?
Would they fight each other or almost immediately try to make an alliance with each other? What?

ILikeDeathNote · Post by **ILikeDeathNote** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:37 pm

Before I thought there was a definitive agenda behind your topics, possibly related to some issue regarding SDN (and comments from user "stoneburner" seems to strongly confirm your membership at SDN) but I am now just confused.

PunkMaister · Post by **PunkMaister** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:47 pm

ILikeDeathNote wrote:Before I thought there was a definitive agenda behind your topics, possibly related to some issue regarding SDN (and comments from user "stoneburner" seems to strongly confirm your membership at SDN) but I am now just confused.

Umm... There is no agenda at least in this thread other than to find out what would happen if both of these empires ever meet!

Mr. Oragahn · Post by **Mr. Oragahn** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:15 pm

ILikeDeathNote wrote:Before I thought there was a definitive agenda behind your topics, possibly related to some issue regarding SDN (and comments from user "stoneburner" seems to strongly confirm your membership at SDN) but I am now just confused.

RJLC is a member of SDN, or was, since he's been recently banned and quite for some time I think.
He does not have an agenda as far as I can tell safe that moaning about SDN anytime he can (explained here).
He has an obvious will to show that Stargate is superior. Superior to such universes as Star Trek, and that ultimately, both Gate and Trek of them are good when working together to show how Star Wars is inferior to both of them.
He also largely sports an overacting-style, coupled to a behaviour of someone who has just discovered versus fandom, despite having been running his own versus forum for years.
Add to that a bad habit of starting threads which either serve for argument scooping, to use elsewhere or later on, or to address rather technical questions wherein he waits for other people to do the work.
Sometimes he asks a good question. That's pretty much all there is to know about him imho.
I frankly find him an above-average lazy-ass debater, but maybe things can change.

PunkMaister · Post by **PunkMaister** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:44 pm

Why is my background so important all of a sudden? What is it's relevance when it comes to this particular thread? Seriously!

ILikeDeathNote · Post by **ILikeDeathNote** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:09 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote: Add to that a bad habit of starting threads which either serve for argument scooping, to use elsewhere or later on, or to address rather technical questions wherein he waits for other people to do the work.
Sometimes he asks a good question. That's pretty much all there is to know about him imho.

That seems consistent with his behavior.

I'm also curious about his own forum.

PunkMaister wrote:Why is my background so important all of a sudden? What is it's relevance when it comes to this particular thread? Seriously!

Because I would like some transparency in the verses debate. I want to know what your position on the issues is.

Furthermore, the specific nature of some of your questions raises a red flag - the issue of communism and elected governments in Trek, and the philosophical nature of transporters, are issues commonly debated at SDN with strong opinions but is not so much of a concern here. I was lead to believe, therefore, that you may be mining for material for a debate at SDN, as what Mr. Oragahn said, trying to have other debaters do work for you.

PunkMaister · Post by **PunkMaister** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:12 pm

ILikeDeathNote wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Add to that a bad habit of starting threads which either serve for argument scooping, to use elsewhere or later on, or to address rather technical questions wherein he waits for other people to do the work.
Sometimes he asks a good question. That's pretty much all there is to know about him imho.
That seems consistent with his behavior.

Can anyone post something here that actually has to do with the Goddamn topic!

ILikeDeathNote · Post by **ILikeDeathNote** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:14 pm

To answer the question, the reality is of course we wouldn't know unless it were made into some level of canon, which would require a cross-licensing agreement involving both LucasFilm Licensing and Viacom.

That aside, we can make inferences and educated guesses. The expansionist nature of both empires would almost certainly dictate a hostile stance towards one another, and a high probability of large-scale conflict.

Post by **Mike DiCenso** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:02 am

ILikeDeathNote wrote: That aside, we can make inferences and educated guesses. The expansionist nature of both empires would almost certainly dictate a hostile stance towards one another, and a high probability of large-scale conflict.

Some specifics would be in order here: What era of the Terran Empire is meeting the Galactic Empire? How do they meet (blog standard wormhole)? One thing is certain in my mind as a special disadvantage for the TE, it does not innovate very well when it comes to new technologies, it can only steal them them and improve on them (Vulcan tech after FC, and later the UFP's 23rd century technology in the form of the Constitution class Defiant).
-Mike

PunkMaister · Post by **PunkMaister** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:15 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:Some specifics would be in order here: What era of the Terran Empire is meeting the Galactic Empire? How do they meet (blog standard wormhole)? One thing is certain in my mind as a special disadvantage for the TE, it does not innovate very well when it comes to new technologies, it can only steal them them and improve on them (Vulcan tech after FC, and later the UFP's 23rd century technology in the form of the Constitution class Defiant).
-Mike

Well for what we know the Mirrorverse Terran Empire at it's height only lasted at best about 2 centuries the 22nd and the 23rd up until Mirrorverse Spock meets UFPverse Kirk and changes things. By the 24th century there does not seem to be such an empire anymore and instead we see a mirrorverse ruled by Bajorans and Klingons where humans are the oppresed ones and not the oppressors as to whether this is the same mirrorverse turned upside down by the TOS events no one knows. I'd say at best it should be smack in between the Enterprise Era Mirroverse and the UFP era one.

And yes the Terrans in the Mirroverse act very much like the Goa'uld in Stargate stealing stuff and copying it for their own use, that is a given...

ILikeDeathNote · Post by **ILikeDeathNote** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:34 am

Mike DiCenso wrote: Some specifics would be in order here: What era of the Terran Empire is meeting the Galactic Empire?

By definition, it would have to be at some time after Cochrane achieved warp drive (as seen in the Enterprise episode "In a Mirror, Darkly") and before Spock rose to power and implemented his "reforms" (as inferred in the TOS episode "Mirror, Mirror" and explicitly said in the DS9 episode "Crossover".) Before and after those points, the Terran Empire does not exist, at least in a form useful for this thread.

Soon much after the Terran Empire has achieved interstellar status, they would have been too weak to confront the Galactic Empire, and the GE would either have made an easy conquest or the TE would have done their best to remain hidden. If it was during the time seen in "In a Mirror, Darkly" the TE may see the GE as a possible source of rebellion agitation among the alien populations, and the GE may indeed take advantage of this despite their own xenophobic stance in order to prepare for conquest. But with a well-developed space navy, the TE may feel to be in a position of equal footing to the GE. This would hold true until the TE's collapse.

PunkMaister wrote:as to whether this is the same mirrorverse turned upside down by the TOS events no one knows.

But we do know. Superintendent Kira of Terak Nor stated a brief version of the history of the Mirror Universe to Major Kira and Dr. Bashir in "Crossover" and explicitly mentioned the collapse of the Terran Empire as caused by the reforms of Spock after his encounter with Captain Kirk of "our" universe.

Sometime after Major Kira and Dr. Bashir returned to "our" universe, the Terran Rebellion was able to discover information regarding the transporter malfunction which caused the two Kirks to switch places, and were able to build a transporter of their own to deliberately replicate this phenomenon with the hopes of obtaining supplies and other useful intelligence from "our" universe.

Therefore, we can conclude that this is the same universe as visited by Kirk, or at least a permutation of a parallel universe that was visited by a Captain Kirk serving the Starfleet of the United Federation of Planets, which is effectively the same thing anyway.

Post by **Mike DiCenso** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:36 am

The Mirror universe shown in DS0 is the same one that Kirk and company beamed into in "Mirror, Mirror". Intendant Kira Nerys tells her counterpart from the Regular universe the story about what happened:

KIRA II
"You didn't seem to recognize the
"Alliance"...

KIRA
No.

KIRA II

Perhaps you'd recognize the name
"Kirk"...

KIRA
I'm sorry, I don't.

KIRA II
Interesting. On my side, Kirk is
one the most famous names in our
history.

Almost a century ago, a Terran
starship Captain named James Kirk
accidentally exchanged places with
his counterpart from your side due
to a transporter accident. Our
Terrans were barbarians then, but
their Empire was strong. While your
Kirk was on this side, he met a Vulcan
named Spock and somehow had a profound
influence on him. Afterwards, Spock
rose to commander in chief of the
Empire by preaching reforms,
disarmament, peace. It was a
remarkable turnabout for his people.
Unfortunately for them, when Spock
had completed all these reforms, his
empire was no longer in any position
to defend itself against us.

KIRA
Us?

KIRA II
The Alliance. The historic coming
together of the Klingons and
Cardassians."

Effectively recounting the events of "Mirror, Mirror", only she tells what happened after Kirk left.

Since you've choosen to have the 22nd century TE fight the GE, it will go very badly for the TE since they are nowhere near technologically advanced enough to counter the larger and much greater number of ships, and somewhat higher tech level of the GE.
-Mike

ILikeDeathNote · Post by **ILikeDeathNote** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:44 am

Mike DiCenso wrote: Since you've choosen to have the 22nd century TE fight the GE, it will go very badly for the TE since they are nowhere near technologically advanced enough to counter the larger and much greater number of ships, and somewhat higher tech level of the GE.

Although that is true, the TE would not necessarily be immediately aware of that, and may feel to be in a position to be able to match the GE technologically before the actual initiation of hostilities.

Therefore, there is practically little difference in outcome regarding this verses battle, just from substituting the Terran Empire for the United Federation of Planets. The only thing dictacting the outcome is whether or not you would believe the Star Trek space fairing forces to be superior to those from Star Wars or vice-versa.

PunkMaister · Post by **PunkMaister** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:55 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:Since you've choosen to have the 22nd century TE fight the GE, it will go very badly for the TE since they are nowhere near technologically advanced enough to counter the larger and much greater number of ships, and somewhat higher tech level of the GE.
-Mike

Well it is obvious that just as I suspected the Terran Empire falls apart after Kirk's visit in the 23rd century so I had to choose a slightly earlier time at least before Spock and Kirk appear. They would not stand a chance after Kirk's visit since they could not stand against the Klingon/Cardassian alliance arraigned against them.

But more importantly why is it that everybody seems to assume that they automatically have to be enemies the very moment they see each other?

2046 · Post by **2046** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:15 am

We need not assume that the DS9 Mirrorverse is the same as the one Kirk entered. It need only be one that branched off from the universe in which the Kirk event occurred.

For instance, there might be another universe where Spock was killed before his plan could be executed, and another in which he was perfectly successful *and* the Earth fleets repulsed any alien attack, and everything was sunshine and fluffy bunnies forevermore.