Starfleet Jedi

Can anyone point to any actual evidence of elections or anything like that which is what would approach what we know as democracy anyhow...

PunkMaister wrote:Can anyone point to any actual evidence of elections or anything like that which is what would approach what we know as democracy anyhow...

The fact that they have a president and a council?

President is only a term. You find plenty of Presidents in Africa.

The more interesting organ is the council, although it could very well the equivalent of one President's governments, that is, largely put in place by said President.

Mith wrote:

PunkMaister wrote:Can anyone point to any actual evidence of elections or anything like that which is what would approach what we know as democracy anyhow...

The fact that they have a president and a council?

You are kidding right? Saddam Hussein was President of Iraq after all and China has a president as well and neither of these are or where democracies...

PunkMaister wrote:Can anyone point to any actual evidence of elections or anything like that which is what would approach what we know as democracy anyhow...

You seem to be very interested in examining subjects that are tangential to the debate as a whole, but are still argued vehemently over at SDN in regards to Federation culture. For example, I know that the scroll-over text of a transporter room on the SDN main site reads something to the effect of a device where Federation citizens routinely sacrifice themselves to their government, and Wong has a lengthy essay about the Federation's undemocratic communism, and is otherwise a widely known position of Wong.

ILikeDeathNote wrote:

PunkMaister wrote:Can anyone point to any actual evidence of elections or anything like that which is what would approach what we know as democracy anyhow...

You seem to be very interested in examining subjects that are tangential to the debate as a whole, but are still argued vehemently over at SDN in regards to Federation culture. For example, I know that the scroll-over text of a transporter room on the SDN main site reads something to the effect of a device where Federation citizens routinely sacrifice themselves to their government, and Wong has a lengthy essay about the Federation's undemocratic communism, and is otherwise a widely known position of Wong.

Tangential? How? First of all Wong has said that the federation is an evil entity. I'm making no such allegations. What I'm trying here is to find out if the UFP is a democracy or not. In fact what you are resorting too is circular reasoning and baseless Tu-quoque arguments to derail a perfectly legitimate question for some unexplained sniglet of the universe. So are you going to try to answer the question or what, because if not then please kindly allow others that might be interested to respond, thank you, BTW: Do not ever compare me to Wong...

PunkMaister wrote:

ILikeDeathNote wrote:

PunkMaister wrote:Can anyone point to any actual evidence of elections or anything like that which is what would approach what we know as democracy anyhow...

You seem to be very interested in examining subjects that are tangential to the debate as a whole, but are still argued vehemently over at SDN in regards to Federation culture. For example, I know that the scroll-over text of a transporter room on the SDN main site reads something to the effect of a device where Federation citizens routinely sacrifice themselves to their government, and Wong has a lengthy essay about the Federation's undemocratic communism, and is otherwise a widely known position of Wong.

Tangential? How? First of all Wong has said that the federation is an evil entity. I'm making no such allegations. What I'm trying here is to find out if the UFP is a democracy or not. In fact what you are resorting too is circular reasoning and baseless Tu-quoque arguments to derail a perfectly legitimate question for some unexplained sniglet of the universe. So are you going to try to answer the question or what, because if not then please kindly allow others that might be interested to respond, thank you, BTW: Do not ever compare me to Wong...

I didn't mean that, and in no way did I insinuate such.

I just find the pattern of your questions interesting; if anything, you seem very interested in the exact opposite positions regarding Wong. I find it interesting enough to ask for what your precise motivations are. I do this because I feel it's important to bring transparency and accountability into the debate, something I feel Wong and SDN have gone to great lengths to destroy.

Per the "Homefront" - "Paradise Lost" duology on DS9, the President of the Federation is elected from some unknown number of contenders whose names are chosen by the Council, if I remember correctly. I'll check against the ep later.

Needless to say, that's not a direct election. However, how the devil do you coordinate a direct election by over a thousand planets and perhaps two trillion people? Can you even install a direct election system on those member worlds that might not've already had one? Is it canonically possible to not have one and be a member world? TOS would seem to suggest the possibility on a few occasions (Gideon's "Council" schmuckery, Ardana's caste system, and maybe another I'm forgetting).

DS9 may also suggest it elsewhere, especially given their desire to make the Federation out to be a UN in space. How many countries in the UN are not democratic but have a say? Quite a few, I'm sure.

Two trillion people? I'd appreciate seeing the evidence of this in the other thread, 2046. ;)

Question is, who names the members of this Council?

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Two trillion people? I'd appreciate seeing the evidence of this in the other thread, 2046. ;)

Question is, who names the members of this Council?

Precisely! Even if the president of the UFP is chosen by the council the question remains how is this council or to be more precise it's members elected if at all..

2046 wrote: especially given their desire to make the Federation out to be a UN in space.

That explains a LOT about the Federation. *shakes head in disgust*

Tyralak wrote:

2046 wrote: especially given their desire to make the Federation out to be a UN in space.

That explains a LOT about the Federation. *shakes head in disgust*

Yes and no, because the UN does not even have a third of the teeth the federation seems to have nor does it have it's own armed forces either to enforce UN policy, all that they do is pass resolution after mostly worthless resolution. And no one is a UN citizen, UN citizenship does not exist. If anything it resembles more the European Union council than the UN. But still we have no idea as to how the council representatives are elected if at all...

PunkMaister wrote:And no one is a UN citizen, UN citizenship does not exist.

Not yet.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:

PunkMaister wrote:And no one is a UN citizen, UN citizenship does not exist.

Not yet.

That organization is so inept that for anyone to even think it could become some kind of world government is ludicrous.

2046 wrote:Per the "Homefront" - "Paradise Lost" duology on DS9, the President of the Federation is elected from some unknown number of contenders whose names are chosen by the Council, if I remember correctly. I'll check against the ep later.

The president of the Federation is elected as this dialog mentions:

JARESH-INYO
"I never sought this job. I was
content to simply represent my
people on the Federation Council.
When they asked me to submit my
name for election, I almost said
no. Today I wish I had."

Subverting that process is not a good idea, either:

SISKO
"Do you think the other Federation
worlds are going to sit back and
let their President be replaced by
a military dictatorship?"

LEYTON
"Hardly a dictatorship, Ben."



SISKO
"Overthrowing a legitimately
elected President and giving
Starfleet direct control over
the government? Sounds like a
dictatorship to me. And I'm sure
I won't be the only one who thinks
so."

The process of election is not described, but it can be at least infered that the Council has a part in making appointees.
-Mike