Starfleet Jedi

Following the debate about industry and world pop in both SW and ST, JMS told me that this topic had been heavily discussed.

I can easily imagine this, it's like where are the black people and aliens in SW? and there seems to be a long tradition of starting a thread about Vulcans.

Most interesting was the idea that what we got was essentially a view of the human section of the UFP, implying that there are equally large sections of alien vessels filled with, well, aliens.

I noticed that Memory Alpha defines Federation starship classes as such:

Class Name Type Century
Class-4 stardrive Survey vessel 23rd century
Aeon-type Timeship 29th century
Akira-class unknown 24th century
Ambassador-class Heavy cruiser 24th century
Antares-type Survey ship/Transport/Freighter/Science vessel 23rd century
Apollo-class unknown 24th century
Bonaventure-type unknown unknown
Bradbury-class unknown 24th century
Centaur-type unknown 24th century
Challenger-class unknown 24th century
Cheyenne-class unknown 24th century
Constellation-class Explorer 23rd century
Constitution-class Star cruiser 23rd century
Curry-type unknown 24th century
Daedalus-class unknown 22nd century
Danube-class Runabout 24th century
Defiant-class Escort / Warship 24th century
Elkins-type unknown 24th century
Enterprise-J-type unknown 26th century
Erewon-class Personnel carrier 24th century
Excelsior-class unknown 23rd century
Federation-class Dreadnought 23rd century
Freedom-class unknown 24th century
Galaxy-class Explorer 24th century
Hermes-class Scout 23rd century
Huron-type Freighter 23rd century
Intrepid-class Science vessel 24th century
Class J starship Freighter/space cruiser 23rd century
Korolev-class unknown 24th century
Merced-class unknown 24th century
Miranda-class Science vessel/supply ship 23rd century
Nebula-class unknown 24th century
New Orleans-class Frigate 24th century
Niagara-class unknown 24th century
Norway-class unknown 24th century
Nova-class Science vessel 24th century
Oberth-class Science vessel 23rd century
Olympic-class Hospital ship 24th century
Peregrine-class Courier 24th century
Prometheus-class Tactical vessel 24th century
Ptolemy-class Tug/Transport 23rd century
Raven-type Science vessel 24th century
Renaissance-class unknown 24th century
Saber-class unknown 24th century
Saladin-class unknown 23rd century
Sovereign-class unknown 24th century
Soyuz-class unknown 23rd century
Springfield-class unknown 24th century
Steamrunner-class unknown 24th century
Sydney-class Transport/shuttle 23rd century
Wells-class Timeship 29th century
Yeager-type unknown 24th century
Yellowstone-class Runabout 24th century

Nothing that I could call Vulcan or Andarian in style.

And if there was any doubt about it, I can't recall any case, from the bits I saw, of a ship's hull sporting alien letters.
It's all good English on it.

And now back from this Starfleet aparte, we deal with the council, which although featuring a good number of alien species, doesn't tell how many individuals of each species these senators/ambassadors/counselors/etc. represent.

For example, there could be one seat for each species or member world (where each member world would have its own species or several of them), but it wouldn't tell a thing about the percentage of humans in the UFP in regards to other species.

As I said earlier on, I get the strong feeling that aliens in the UFP are sidekicks. The heroic crews are always largely composed of humans.

I'd say cut the hypocrisy and call it the Hegemony of Man.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
As I said earlier on, I get the strong feeling that aliens in the UFP are sidekicks. The heroic crews are always largely composed of humans.

I'd say cut the hypocrisy and call it the Hegemony of Man.

I've been thinking for a while that when the Federation was formed that the Earth SF was just rebadged into the Federation SF (swap some hul decals etc) and the Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites etc either kept their fleets as a SDF or scrapped them.

Well, we do know that the Vulcans did indeed continue to operate ships of their own unique design well into the late 23rd century and possibly the early 24th as evidenced by the T'Pau-type transports, which thankfully the Vulcan High Command starships of the 22nd century bear a close design lineage to.

Interestingly enough, the T'Pau, according to the Okudagram readout display, was operated by a Vulcan agency called the "Vulcan National Merchant Fleet", indicating once again sovereignty of Federation members as well as the operation of their own civilian and military space assets. Not to mention, there is clearly commerce of some kind still going throughout the Federation as a whole.
-Mike

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Nothing that I could call Vulcan or Andarian in style.

That's probably because all the UFP vessels are joint-ventures between all the races. There aren't human vessels and then Vulcan vessels, there are just UFP vessels. That said, the Vulcans and Andorians did have a lot of vessels before they joined with the humans, so it's possible they have some own private defense fleet or something like that.

And now back from this Starfleet aparte, we deal with the council, which although featuring a good number of alien species, doesn't tell how many individuals of each species these senators/ambassadors/counselors/etc. represent.

Their entire race? Or so I'd imagine.

For example, there could be one seat for each species or member world (where each member world would have its own species or several of them), but it wouldn't tell a thing about the percentage of humans in the UFP in regards to other species.

There are most likely less humans then Vulcans, Andorians and Tellarites. The two latter have been warp-capable and colonising space since before Sputnik was launched.

As I said earlier on, I get the strong feeling that aliens in the UFP are sidekicks. The heroic crews are always largely composed of humans.

There are ships where the entire crew is Vulcan. We saw one such ship in DS9. We probably just see the human vessels more often because it's more conveniant that way.

Mike DiCenso wrote:Well, we do know that the Vulcans did indeed continue to operate ships of their own unique design well into the late 23rd century and possibly the early 24th as evidenced by the T'Pau-type transports, which thankfully the Vulcan High Command starships of the 22nd century bear a close design lineage to.

True. Was the Vulcan fleet in ENT actually called the High Command? That seems a rather bizarre name for a naval organisation as a whole rather than the HQ element.

Interestingly enough, the T'Pau, according to the Okudagram readout display, was operated by a Vulcan agency called the "Vulcan National Merchant Fleet", indicating once again sovereignty of Federation members as well as the operation of their own civilian and military space assets. Not to mention, there is clearly commerce of some kind still going throughout the Federation as a whole.
-Mike

Good find, that. Sisko's girlfriend worked for a private firm as well didn't she, a Bolian or Batarian (started with a B) company?

There are ships where the entire crew is Vulcan. We saw one such ship in DS9. We probably just see the human vessels more often because it's more conveniant that way.

We also learned in ENT that Vulcan females apparently think Humans stink (what don't they wash?), so perhaps Vulcans prefer not to serve with Humans thanks to the stench.

The Corporal wrote:
True. Was the Vulcan fleet in ENT actually called the High Command? That seems a rather bizarre name for a naval organisation as a whole rather than the HQ element

.

Yes, it was called that. The Romulans also had a High Command, too. Naval? I thought it was a unified Vulcan military and exploration organization.

The Corporal wrote:Good find, that. Sisko's girlfriend worked for a private firm as well didn't she, a Bolian or Batarian (started with a B) company?

Kasidy Yates, and yes, for a while she was her own independent, private operator, and later managed to secure a freight hauling contract with the Bajoran Ministry of Commerce. It does seem that despite running convoys during the Dominion War, Kasidy was still an independent private cargo operation.

The Corporal wrote: We also learned in ENT that Vulcan females apparently think Humans stink (what don't they wash?), so perhaps Vulcans prefer not to serve with Humans thanks to the stench.

Well, given Spock's discomfort with being around illogical Humans, it's probably also a cultural as well as environmental issue for some races. Spock did complain in "The Deadly Years" [TOS, Season 2], when his aging was hyper-accelerated, that the ship was uncomfortably cold to him. Where possible, there are mixed crews... crews that can get along culturally as well as environmentally. Since we saw several Vulcans serving on the E-D, apparently there are some Vulcans who are okay with being around us illogical and stinky Humans.
-Mike

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Following the debate about industry and world pop in both SW and ST, JMS told me that this topic had been heavily discussed.

To clarify, the topic has been discussed here - not to excess, but discussed. The specific subject of why we don't see Vulcans very much in Starfleet has been discussed at great length within the canon. Spock is presented as the first Vulcan officer in Starfleet - a century after the founding of the Federation. If I am not greatly mistaken, his protege Saavik is still breaking ground decades later.

The Vulcans operate their own science fleet independently of Earth's Starfleet; the Benzites are also known to have become Federation members, and a small handful have joined Starfleet; however, per "A Matter of Honor," they had their own fleet with their own ships, and were exploring how to work more closely with Starfleet.

In fact, back in the TOS era, we have UESPA - the United Earth Space Probe Agency. In DS9's "Rapture," we hear the Bajoran militia will be absorbed into Starfleet. Presumably this helps highlight the difference over time.

I can easily imagine this, it's like where are the black people and aliens in SW? and there seems to be a long tradition of starting a thread about Vulcans.

Most interesting was the idea that what we got was essentially a view of the human section of the UFP, implying that there are equally large sections of alien vessels filled with, well, aliens.

Not necessarily in proportion with the population, but yes. The TOS Federation is not a particularly tightly bound entity - the EU and NATO come to mind, but it might be a little closer to the UN.

I imagine that by the TNG era, the alliance has grown tighter. I also imagine that, as with NATO, the Warsaw Pact, or the Athenian League, one member has a tradition of contributing the most to the military, and probably providing most of the military equipment, even that operated by other members. Seeing Earth-style ships and assuming all of them are commanded and crewed by Earth would be like assuming every T-34 had a Russian in it.

I noticed that Memory Alpha defines Federation starship classes as such:

Class Name Type Century
Class-4 stardrive Survey vessel 23rd century
Aeon-type Timeship 29th century
Akira-class unknown 24th century
Ambassador-class Heavy cruiser 24th century
Antares-type Survey ship/Transport/Freighter/Science vessel 23rd century
Apollo-class unknown 24th century
Bonaventure-type unknown unknown
Bradbury-class unknown 24th century
Centaur-type unknown 24th century
Challenger-class unknown 24th century
Cheyenne-class unknown 24th century
Constellation-class Explorer 23rd century
Constitution-class Star cruiser 23rd century
Curry-type unknown 24th century
Daedalus-class unknown 22nd century
Danube-class Runabout 24th century
Defiant-class Escort / Warship 24th century
Elkins-type unknown 24th century
Enterprise-J-type unknown 26th century
Erewon-class Personnel carrier 24th century
Excelsior-class unknown 23rd century
Federation-class Dreadnought 23rd century
Freedom-class unknown 24th century
Galaxy-class Explorer 24th century
Hermes-class Scout 23rd century
Huron-type Freighter 23rd century
Intrepid-class Science vessel 24th century
Class J starship Freighter/space cruiser 23rd century
Korolev-class unknown 24th century
Merced-class unknown 24th century
Miranda-class Science vessel/supply ship 23rd century
Nebula-class unknown 24th century
New Orleans-class Frigate 24th century
Niagara-class unknown 24th century
Norway-class unknown 24th century
Nova-class Science vessel 24th century
Oberth-class Science vessel 23rd century
Olympic-class Hospital ship 24th century
Peregrine-class Courier 24th century
Prometheus-class Tactical vessel 24th century
Ptolemy-class Tug/Transport 23rd century
Raven-type Science vessel 24th century
Renaissance-class unknown 24th century
Saber-class unknown 24th century
Saladin-class unknown 23rd century
Sovereign-class unknown 24th century
Soyuz-class unknown 23rd century
Springfield-class unknown 24th century
Steamrunner-class unknown 24th century
Sydney-class Transport/shuttle 23rd century
Wells-class Timeship 29th century
Yeager-type unknown 24th century
Yellowstone-class Runabout 24th century

Nothing that I could call Vulcan or Andarian in style.

And if there was any doubt about it, I can't recall any case, from the bits I saw, of a ship's hull sporting alien letters.
It's all good English on it.

The fact that most ship names seem to be Earth names is a stronger indicator than the visual designs. Only a few are named after things within the Federation universe (e.g., USS Gorkon, USS Shirkahr). I'll never deny that the Starfleet that we see is mostly human; however, I strongly suspect there are notable non-human alien space agencies operated mostly independently by other members.

In particular, I would point fingers at the Andorians, Tellarites, Vulcans, and Benzites. In the case of the Benzites and Vulcans, we've heard of ships they operate independently of Starfleet; in the case of the Andorians and Tellarites, we have a complete lack of any officers serving aboard human-commanded ships. (We have seen an Andorian admiral in Starfleet uniform, however).

And now back from this Starfleet aparte, we deal with the council, which although featuring a good number of alien species, doesn't tell how many individuals of each species these senators/ambassadors/counselors/etc. represent.

For example, there could be one seat for each species or member world (where each member world would have its own species or several of them), but it wouldn't tell a thing about the percentage of humans in the UFP in regards to other species.

As I said earlier on, I get the strong feeling that aliens in the UFP are sidekicks. The heroic crews are always largely composed of humans.

I'd say cut the hypocrisy and call it the Hegemony of Man.

Comments about the human domination of the Federation were made in STVI (The Undiscovered Country) in discussing the possible dissolution of the Klingon Empire. Humans have always been the central glue of the Federation, at a minimum.

The bridge crews are never wholly human. I would say that even Earth's Starfleet is at least 10% alien by the 24th century.

Actually, now that I think about it, Gideon was applying for Federation membership. Even if they reduced Gideon's population to a normal urban density, that would be something on the order of a trillion. The natives of Gideon also would have some incentive to emigrate, and are - like many TOS aliens that Kirk is presumed to have slept with - difficult to distinguish from humans.

At the time of Gideon's application to join the Federation, the crowding situation was absolutely ludicrous; Gideonites, at the time, probably outnumbered humans by sheer orders of magnitude. Yet we never hear of Gideon again, for good or ill. Influence and population are not the same thing within the Federation.

Mike DiCenso wrote:
Yes, it was called that. The Romulans also had a High Command, too. Naval? I thought it was a unified Vulcan military and exploration organization.

*shrug* So is SF, yet they still have naval ranks and act as a navy in space.

Well, given Spock's discomfort with being around illogical Humans, it's probably also a cultural as well as environmental issue for some races. Spock did complain in "The Deadly Years" [TOS, Season 2], when his aging was hyper-accelerated, that the ship was uncomfortably cold to him. Where possible, there are mixed crews... crews that can get along culturally as well as environmentally. Since we saw several Vulcans serving on the E-D, apparently there are some Vulcans who are okay with being around us illogical and stinky Humans.
-Mike

True enough.

I've never seen a human Federation president, so Humans aren't the "dominating" species in the Federation.
It might be the most spread out, since we do breed like rabbits... :)

But the most dominating?
Not sure...

Mike DiCenso wrote: Yes, it was called that. The Romulans also had a High Command, too. Naval? I thought it was a unified Vulcan military and exploration organization.

The Corporal wrote: *shrug* So is SF, yet they still have naval ranks and act as a navy in space.

Except on the occasion where the use marine or army type ranks, such as Colonel West from Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country.
-Mike

Mike DiCenso wrote:
Except on the occasion where the use marine or army type ranks, such as Colonel West from Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country.
-Mike

I suppose it would be better to describe it as a combined service, like Kirk describes it to that USAF pilot. Seeing as they fill all the traditional military roles, I chalked up Colonel West as being from a specific branch or trade in STVI (Int etc).

Jedi Master Spock wrote: To clarify, the topic has been discussed here - not to excess, but discussed. The specific subject of why we don't see Vulcans very much in Starfleet has been discussed at great length within the canon. Spock is presented as the first Vulcan officer in Starfleet - a century after the founding of the Federation. If I am not greatly mistaken, his protege Saavik is still breaking ground decades later.

The Vulcans operate their own science fleet independently of Earth's Starfleet; the Benzites are also known to have become Federation members, and a small handful have joined Starfleet; however, per "A Matter of Honor," they had their own fleet with their own ships, and were exploring how to work more closely with Starfleet.

In fact, back in the TOS era, we have UESPA - the United Earth Space Probe Agency. In DS9's "Rapture," we hear the Bajoran militia will be absorbed into Starfleet. Presumably this helps highlight the difference over time.

So I have not been dreaming this up. Starfleet, pretty much supposed to be THE official fleet of the Federation, was mainly a human affair even a century after the Federation's birth.

Not necessarily in proportion with the population, but yes. The TOS Federation is not a particularly tightly bound entity - the EU and NATO come to mind, but it might be a little closer to the UN.

But you can still find legions or bataillions still belonging to one country in particular, and above all, you don't have the new guys on the block taking the reign of the union. For the Federation, the humans were catching up, and yet they still attained the central role of the USA enjoyes in an organ like NATO for example.

I imagine that by the TNG era, the alliance has grown tighter. I also imagine that, as with NATO, the Warsaw Pact, or the Athenian League, one member has a tradition of contributing the most to the military, and probably providing most of the military equipment, even that operated by other members. Seeing Earth-style ships and assuming all of them are commanded and crewed by Earth would be like assuming every T-34 had a Russian in it.

But they're still Earth-style ships, that's quite telling, and contrary to the T-34s, they're not sold to other forces.
Terran ships are largely made by Earth's holdings, and exclusively used for the Federation. They're the symbol of the Federation.
T-34s were the exclusive symbol of nothing after WWII, they were just a product sold to anyone who wanted them.
Russian tanks are not supposed to be the exclusive and unique mechanized force being the backspine of a given international army.

Starfleet's terran ships are.

The fact that most ship names seem to be Earth names is a stronger indicator than the visual designs. Only a few are named after things within the Federation universe (e.g., USS Gorkon, USS Shirkahr). I'll never deny that the Starfleet that we see is mostly human; however, I strongly suspect there are notable non-human alien space agencies operated mostly independently by other members.

I disagree. The design is big indicator as well, a lineage that started with the Phoenix, up to the NX Project's test vessels, all of which had the very distinctive warp nacelles, up to the final [url=http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Enterprise_(NX-01)]NX-01, which already sported the typical warp nacelles placed on two connectors forming a V, with a saucer as the main section.
The vast majority of future Starfleet vessels shared several of these aspects, and the NCC-1701 is just a proof of that.

More, all vessels up to the NX-01, including the Enterprise, were finally built before the creation of the UFP, and even before the Vulcan Reformation.

As for human presidents, on the four Memory Alpha lists, two were humans, including Archer apparently (although it's related to those AU episodes).

In particular, I would point fingers at the Andorians, Tellarites, Vulcans, and Benzites. In the case of the Benzites and Vulcans, we've heard of ships they operate independently of Starfleet; in the case of the Andorians and Tellarites, we have a complete lack of any officers serving aboard human-commanded ships. (We have seen an Andorian admiral in Starfleet uniform, however).

The point is that the alien members of the Federation seem to relinquish their role in the Starfleet to a large degree.
The Federation is a bizarre entity, really.

Comments about the human domination of the Federation were made in STVI (The Undiscovered Country) in discussing the possible dissolution of the Klingon Empire. Humans have always been the central glue of the Federation, at a minimum.

I don't know many constructs which rely far more on glue than on bricks. :p

The bridge crews are never wholly human. I would say that even Earth's Starfleet is at least 10% alien by the 24th century.

That's far from impressive.

Actually, now that I think about it, Gideon was applying for Federation membership. Even if they reduced Gideon's population to a normal urban density, that would be something on the order of a trillion. The natives of Gideon also would have some incentive to emigrate, and are - like many TOS aliens that Kirk is presumed to have slept with - difficult to distinguish from humans.

At the time of Gideon's application to join the Federation, the crowding situation was absolutely ludicrous; Gideonites, at the time, probably outnumbered humans by sheer orders of magnitude. Yet we never hear of Gideon again, for good or ill. Influence and population are not the same thing within the Federation.

Yes, looking at a seat doesn't reveal how many are behind it.

I guess I'm a little unsure of the point of this thread.

If it was to point out the lack of aliens in starfleet that has of course already been observed and theroys equally good or bad submitted.

You also talk about how the goverment is designed which implies to me at least your wondering if the Federation is a humans only club that bullies lesser species, the Hegemony of Man jibe and all. In that regard seems a little silly. The federation has almost no power over it's indiviual members. A member planet is not apparently even throughly checked out, the cloud minders fisasco, and as long as that world has abolished slavery and isn't shoving people into disintergration booths you can do whatever you want. As been pointed out the Federation president is not human and we see alien high ranking officers typically when we see the upper echelons. Aliens just don't have the will, or desire, to do the grunt work.

But you can still find legions or bataillions still belonging to one country in particular, and above all, you don't have the new guys on the block taking the reign of the union. For the Federation, the humans were catching up, and yet they still attained the central role of the USA enjoyes in an organ like NATO for example.

While the exact reason for humanity becoming the core of the Federation has never been directly stated (ENT) did give us some clues. Our of the founding members the Vulcans were at least hated by the Andorians if not the Telleriates and in addition were undergoing a regiem change and down sizing. The Andorians hated the Telleriates and the Telleriates hated the Andorians neither one would have wanted the other to take up the military arm of the Federation. Humans on the other hand were a rapidly expanding young race that had treated all parties reasonably honorably and did not have decades if not centuries of grudges to settle. Humanity was the best option with the various members keeping thier fleets "pure", keep in mind while we see aliens on Federation vessels the majority alien vessels are wholly one race. I've never heard of a Vulcan ship having Telleriates on board or any other race.

But they're still Earth-style ships, that's quite telling, and contrary to the T-34s, they're not sold to other forces.

I'm a little curious to know how you know that. We rarely ever see member worlds and are not privy to what thier defense force, if any, consist of. I don't think we know that if Bajor had become a member if a few older style starships might have been aquired or not

Mr. Oragahn wrote:The point is that the alien members of the Federation seem to relinquish their role in the Starfleet to a large degree.
The Federation is a bizarre entity, really.

All we know is that they don't participate in the military wing of the Federation, such as it is, which to me since we know of no regulations prohibiting it suggest cultural stagnation or other alien based reasons for not join up rather then some insidious Terran ploy to gain power over the universe.

Mr. Oragahn wrote: As for human presidents, on the four Memory Alpha lists, two were humans, including Archer apparently (although it's related to those AU episodes).

So the list is of four known presidents... out of how many again? Given the 220 some-odd year history of the Federation, it seems odd that they would not have more than four presidents. In the similar timespan it has been around, the United States has had 44 presidents. So can we take that list as an indicator of anything?
-Mike

Mike DiCenso wrote:

Mr. Oragahn wrote: As for human presidents, on the four Memory Alpha lists, two were humans, including Archer apparently (although it's related to those AU episodes).

So the list is of four known presidents... out of how many again? Given the 220 some-odd year history of the Federation, it seems odd that they would not have more than four presidents. In the similar timespan it has been around, the United States has had 44 presidents. So can we take that list as an indicator of anything?
-Mike

Didn't someone not even remembering any human president?
That's now addressed.