The YAWCF debate (poll)

For polite and reasoned discussion of Star Wars and/or Star Trek.
Post Reply

What is CRITICAL LINE A?

Corellia
2
50%
Another "known" system in the Corellian sector
0
No votes
Another "known" system, but not in the Corellian sector
0
No votes
Some random backwater system not listed on Wookieepedia
2
50%
 
Total votes: 4

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5836
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Re: The YAWCF debate (poll)

Post by Mike DiCenso » Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:21 pm

Praeothmin wrote:Is it possible there are different types of Tritanium?
Like there are different types of Uranium?
One type could be "purer" and denser, and tougher to melt...
Possibly. We just have no quantification of how pure or what have you tritanium is in Federation starships. The AoF dialog certainly does not qualify that in any way, just that melting tritanium was impossible with their current technology. The best one could fudge it to is that hand weapons could not do it since it is being spoken in context to a small landing party armed only with type II "dustbuster" phasers. But that is still stretching things greatly for an explanation.
-Mike

User avatar
2046
Starship Captain
Posts: 2040
Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2006 9:14 pm
Contact:

Re: The YAWCF debate (poll)

Post by 2046 » Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:18 am

The alternative is to somehow suggest that the Federation has to mill tritanium somehow, but then tritanium alloy would be more a suspension than a proper alloy, unless we go somewhere peculiar with gamma welding (if that even appears in the canon as opposed to just the TM).

If it were a suspension, then the clear examples of vaporized hull and such (e.g. Generations) might refer only to the suspension getting vaporized (which seems silly) or perhaps to a peculiarity of tritanium's phase changes (i.e. sublimation without a real melt phase, with the melt phase requiring all manner of pressure or other nonsense to achieve).

Or, Tasha just doesn't know metallurgy, or meant to suggest something specific that we aren't privy to (e.g. that it was melted inside an atmosphere without apparent nuclear effect, or whatever).

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5836
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Re: The YAWCF debate (poll)

Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:06 pm

You can't make whole bulkheads out of tritanium, if all you are doing is grinding it into some particulates and sprinkling some other material or materials as a suspension. Conversely you could also have the tritanium making up the structures as a woven fiber, then coated with another material, like we do today with many forms of composites. But it is difficult to say since from what we can observe about Federation and other Star Trek powers' conventional starship construction, there is little to support such a thing. Bulkheads and beam members appear to be soild alloy structures, not composite structures. The use of the term "alloy" appears to imply a melting process to blend tritanium in with some other metal (i.e nitrium or duranium). The only reason to do this in the first place would be if combining the two elements or compunds together makes for improvements in tensile strength and shear strength, even though properties for the individual elements such as density, reactivity, Young's modulus, and electrical and thermal conductivity remain the same. Given how tough nitrium, duranium and tritanium have been stated and demonstrated to be, the 3.8 gigatons I calculated to vaporize a Galaxy class starship's stardrive section is likely a highly conservative number.

As far as things like gamma welding is concerned, there is no reference to anything like that in the canon yet.
-Mike

Jedi Master Spock
Site Admin
Posts: 2164
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:26 pm
Contact:

Re: The YAWCF debate (poll)

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:22 am

I may put out another couple episodes. Realized when doing so that I had forgotten a potentially contentious item:

NUMBER A - gravities of sublight acceleration used by the Federation ship.

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5836
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Re: The YAWCF debate (poll)

Post by Mike DiCenso » Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:00 pm

Nice to see you back again, JMS. As for the g's of acceleration, just use the refit E-1701's run from Earth to Jupiter in ST:TMP as your working basis. Robert's work here in the comparison at the end of his Millennium Falcon article assigns a 3,000 g acceleration to the Enterprise. Now I consider that fairly conservative since Kirk doesn't begin his log until well after the Enterprise has passed by Jupiter and the assumption of a constant speed. And this run by the E-1701 pales in comparison to the E-D's run from Saturn to Earth in BoBW, which was done from a shipboard time of 19 minutes. If we assume relativistic effects, that would place the E-D around .93c.
-Mike

Jedi Master Spock
Site Admin
Posts: 2164
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:26 pm
Contact:

Re: The YAWCF debate (poll)

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:18 am

New questions to consider:
  • The Judgment is somewhat banged up and about a thousand miles off the good hyperlane tracks from Corellia. How long would it take them to hyper to Dantooine?
  • There is a shuttle with a captain on it searching for a planet to recuperate on. Same point of origin. Where does Captain Robinson land and how long does that trip take?
    • It could be Corellia itself.
    • It could be another system near Corellia.
    • It could be another "known" system not in the Corellian sector.
    • It could be some random backwater world.
  • Is there anything that could give away the presence of a cloaked Bird of Prey to the Imperials, aside from the Klingons deciding to catch their notice?

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5836
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Re: The YAWCF debate (poll)

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:15 pm

Jedi Master Spock wrote:New questions to consider:
  • The Judgment is somewhat banged up and about a thousand miles off the good hyperlane tracks from Corellia. How long would it take them to hyper to Dantooine?
  • There is a shuttle with a captain on it searching for a planet to recuperate on. Same point of origin. Where does Captain Robinson land and how long does that trip take?
That would largely depend on how far away from Dantoonie is from the Judgement's
current location. If you establish a distance and there is a viable or at least semi-viable hyperlane to make use of, it could take anywhere from hours to days, to weeks. Conversely you could just use the Chimera's speed from Heir to the Empire to formulate a speed:

"It took the Chimaera nearly five days at its point four cruising speed to cover the three hundred fifty light-years between Myrkr and Wayland." [ "Heir to the Empire", p. 39 ]

So around 25,550c for the Judgement. But if you think that too fast for an older generation Star Destroyer, you could always trim it down a bit.

Jedi Master Spock wrote:
  • It could be Corellia itself.
  • It could be another system near Corellia.
  • It could be another "known" system not in the Corellian sector.
  • It could be some random backwater world.
[*]Is there anything that could give away the presence of a cloaked Bird of Prey to the Imperials, aside from the Klingons deciding to catch their notice?[/list]
Corellia is a core world and as such I would not presume it is close enough for the Judgement to reach in any reasonable time. So you might want to consider having them go to a much closer "backwater" world instead.

I don't know of anything off the top of my head. The flaw that made Chang's BoP leak neutrinos was for an experimental cloak that allowed that particular ship to fire while still being able to maintain the cloak. The Dominion sensors were able to detect cloaked starships with antiproton beams, if said starships were at higher than warp six velocity.
-Mike

Jedi Master Spock
Site Admin
Posts: 2164
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:26 pm
Contact:

Re: The YAWCF debate (poll)

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:02 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:That would largely depend on how far away from Dantoonie is from the Judgement's
current location. If you establish a distance and there is a viable or at least semi-viable hyperlane to make use of, it could take anywhere from hours to days, to weeks. Conversely you could just use the Chimera's speed from Heir to the Empire to formulate a speed:

"It took the Chimaera nearly five days at its point four cruising speed to cover the three hundred fifty light-years between Myrkr and Wayland." [ "Heir to the Empire", p. 39 ]

So around 25,550c for the Judgement. But if you think that too fast for an older generation Star Destroyer, you could always trim it down a bit.
All of those factors are up in the air. Which is why I'm just asking for a time of transit, since that's what actually matters. I also still want a couple more people to weigh in with hard and fast numbers on that acceleration, by the way.

What we know about Dantooine:

1. It's out in the Outer Rim, and not important enough to make a Death Star-sized example out of.
2. Scouts were sent to Dantooine to check it out when Alderaan blew up, and reported back, presumably via Holonet, about the same time that the Falcon reached Alderaan.
3. Some maps place Dantooine directly on a minor hyperlane, others place it near a major hyperlane but don't mark minor hyperlanes. E.g. see here.

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5836
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Re: The YAWCF debate (poll)

Post by Mike DiCenso » Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:03 pm

Okay, so you yourself do not know and just want people to throw in a distance and number. Well, since this is located in the SW equivalent of BFN, I'd make it at least a few days to get anywhere, so my vote is for a new, out of the way, but inhabited planet that is not found in the canon. For the trip to Dantooine, I suppose it could be a week or two, if you decide that the location of this place is close enough for a ship traveling at 20-30,000c.

Oh, a correction on the Klingon cloak issue. Chang's experimental BoP was stated to give off "neutron radiation" not neutrinos.
-Mike

User avatar
2046
Starship Captain
Posts: 2040
Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2006 9:14 pm
Contact:

Re: The YAWCF debate (poll)

Post by 2046 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:30 am

Canonically, the trip from Tatooine to Alderaan is over a week. "But I've got a charter now and I can pay you back, plus a little extra. I just need some more time. I can give you a thousand on account, the rest in three weeks." -ANH Novelization

Jedi Master Spock
Site Admin
Posts: 2164
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:26 pm
Contact:

Re: The YAWCF debate (poll)

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Sat Aug 10, 2013 1:59 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:Okay, so you yourself do not know and just want people to throw in a distance and number.
I do have some opinions of my own. Corellia is smack dab in the middle of everything as far as transit is concerned - its strategic location relative to hyperspace routes is well established. It should be around the same length as other "core-rim" transits, if anything on the low side for those.

A week or two is perfectly reasonable IMO for a core-rim transit. Other people would disagree and point to a smaller or larger figure. If you think that the Empire is about twenty thousand light years in diameter, the Corellia-Dantooine run is a third of that distance, and the average speed in hyperspace is thirty thousand times light speed, you end up with:

20,000 / 3 = 6,667 LY
6,667 LY / 30,000 c = 0.22 years = 80 days

Second, we've already established that it'll be a few days before reinforcements arrive, because we're not in Corellia, but a thousand lights years off the beaten path from Corellia. So it will take several days to get from where the Judgment is now to the major hyperlanes, based on what's already been decided.

The original point of this exercise, which I would like to revive, is to let other people decide all the technical points; and to stir up topical discussion as they do so. It's like a group participation version of a "pick your own adventure" story.
Well, since this is located in the SW equivalent of BFN, I'd make it at least a few days to get anywhere, so my vote is for a new, out of the way, but inhabited planet that is not found in the canon. For the trip to Dantooine, I suppose it could be a week or two, if you decide that the location of this place is close enough for a ship traveling at 20-30,000c.

Oh, a correction on the Klingon cloak issue. Chang's experimental BoP was stated to give off "neutron radiation" not neutrinos.
-Mike
BFN? I'm afraid I don't quite get that.

359
Jedi Knight
Posts: 490
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: The YAWCF debate (poll)

Post by 359 » Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:43 am

Jedi Master Spock wrote:• The Judgment is somewhat banged up and about a thousand miles off the good hyperlane tracks from Corellia. How long would it take them to hyper to Dantooine?
It could take from two weeks to twenty days. Given Dantooine was once the location of a rebel base it should be fairly out of the way.
Jedi Master Spock wrote:• There is a shuttle with a captain on it searching for a planet to recuperate on. Same point of origin. Where does Captain Robinson land and how long does that trip take?
• It could be Corellia itself.
• It could be another system near Corellia.
• It could be another "known" system not in the Corellian sector.
• It could be some random backwater world.
I think some back water world would be the best, but something regarded by the locals as being within travel distance of Corellia.
Jedi Master Spock wrote:• Is there anything that could give away the presence of a cloaked Bird of Prey to the Imperials, aside from the Klingons deciding to catch their notice?
There are few weaknesses of cloaks, none of which Imperial sensors have ever been indicated to exploit.

User avatar
2046
Starship Captain
Posts: 2040
Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2006 9:14 pm
Contact:

Re: The YAWCF debate (poll)

Post by 2046 » Sat Aug 10, 2013 1:02 pm

Unless I am mistaken, BFN is in the same neighborhood as BFE, a legendary area of gegraphical remoteness.

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5836
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Re: The YAWCF debate (poll)

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:00 am

Correct. :-)
-Mike

Jedi Master Spock
Site Admin
Posts: 2164
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:26 pm
Contact:

Re: The YAWCF debate (poll)

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:53 pm

Current questions:
  • What happens if a cloaked Klingon Bird of Prey (230m) attaches itself to an attack cruiser (Venator, 1140m) and that ship goes to hyperspace?
  • How long did it take Commander Shovas to get to Miktoraan, the obscure world not found in Wookieepedia?
  • (Old but still needs more hard number opinions before I put a number into the story) How many gravities of acceleration did the Cheron pull when rushing for the anomaly?
For bonus points, you can weigh in on the Trandoshan's probable reaction to the last line of this episode.

Post Reply