The YAWCF debate (poll)

For polite and reasoned discussion of Star Wars and/or Star Trek.
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What is CRITICAL LINE A?

Corellia
2
50%
Another "known" system in the Corellian sector
0
No votes
Another "known" system, but not in the Corellian sector
0
No votes
Some random backwater system not listed on Wookieepedia
2
50%
 
Total votes: 4

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Re: The YAWCF debate (poll)

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:05 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:Yes, which as the quotes you provided show, there is a bit of inconsistancy since as far back as TOS... in fact all throughout TOS, it is implied or stated that shields are powered usually off warp power. An example is where Scotty in "The Changeling" diverts all warp power into the shields to buy more time against Nomad's onslaught. It is pretty much a given that a starship can switch power sources, though impulse power provides weaker shields.

TNG is an oddity since routinely the ship in the first couple of seasons seems to use warp power into the shields. It is also implied as it is throughout Trek that shields at as capacitors that you can "power up" with a charge from any source, and then as the shields take hits, that charge is expended at greater or lesser rates (See "Relics" as an example), which in that case using impulse power makes sense since the shields don't need constant power dumped into them except when they get knocked down, and knocked down very quickly. In which case dumping warp into them makes sense over the lesser impulse power.
I don't think that's actually inconsistent. You normally power shields off the impulse grid, and when you need to regenerate them or maintain them under heavy fire, you route warp power to them.
I'm not sure what year it is set in for the Star Trek side of things. The klingon commander's attitude indicates it is set around the 2340's before the E-C saves the Klingon's outpost on Narendra III? That makes all the difference from a technological standpoint.
-Mike
See also the uniforms. We're basically immediately post-ROTS on the Star Wars side, and around the time of "Yesterday's Enterprise" on the Star Trek side.

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Re: The YAWCF debate (poll)

Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:37 pm

Jedi Master Spock wrote: I don't think that's actually inconsistent. You normally power shields off the impulse grid, and when you need to regenerate them or maintain them under heavy fire, you route warp power to them.
But the inconsistancy is between TNG and TOS where in TOS the shields as a normal course were run off of warp power and using impulse to power shields was a last resort since it was clearly an inferior source, and in later TNG the shields are stated to be normally powered off of impulse, and only as needed warp.

Jedi Master Spock wrote:See also the uniforms. We're basically immediately post-ROTS on the Star Wars side, and around the time of "Yesterday's Enterprise" on the Star Trek side.
Okay, it was more than obvious in the descriptions of the Star Wars side of things that it was taking place just post-RoTS, but it was somewhat unclear as to when things were occuring for the Trek side.

That being said, since we know little of the technology of that time period other than it's more advanced than the TOS-era and less advanced than the only somewhat later TNG-era. So for the purposes of a parody of not-so-great fanfic, you can chose to depict the power levels as literally "in between" the two eras, though with a closer edge towards the TNG-era since the Cheron operating only some 19-20 years prior to TNG's first season, and some 60 years after the last TOS events depicted in ST:G. So I can reasonably see torpedoes being fired in TNG-era style spreads, but at a lesser RoF, and the torpedoes while powerful, they will probably not have the efficencies of the TNG-era ones. Same goes for phasers, and the limited size of the array strips may mean less of a punch, but still able to do rapid-fire point defense shots against fighters.
-Mike

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Re: The YAWCF debate (poll)

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:42 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:Okay, it was more than obvious in the descriptions of the Star Wars side of things that it was taking place just post-RoTS, but it was somewhat unclear as to when things were occuring for the Trek side.
Well, the span in which an Ambassador class might be in service is longer than the entire Star Wars hexology timeline, so that's understandable.
So I can reasonably see torpedoes being fired in TNG-era style spreads, but at a lesser RoF, and the torpedoes while powerful, they will probably not have the efficencies of the TNG-era ones.
Well, that's one way to resolve it. So full-size GCS-like spreads, with not-quite-TNG era yields and ranges, but mainly a lower rate of fire?

I suppose here's another question, while we're on the topic: Are the torpedoes going to have a proximity effect on the Cheron itself? That would be something worth considering, I suppose, given the hazards of close torpedo fire in early TNG.

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Re: The YAWCF debate (poll)

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:15 am

Jedi Master Spock wrote: Well, that's one way to resolve it. So full-size GCS-like spreads, with not-quite-TNG era yields and ranges, but mainly a lower rate of fire?
Maybe the two burst spreads, not the 5 burst ones. The rest sounds good to me.
Jedi Master Spock wrote:I suppose here's another question, while we're on the topic: Are the torpedoes going to have a proximity effect on the Cheron itself? That would be something worth considering, I suppose, given the hazards of close torpedo fire in early TNG.
The times torpedo proximity effects have been a danger is when the ship is firing full-spread, full-yield torpdedoes as well as the ship being very close range (within several kilometers), and totally unshielded and helpless (as per "Q Who?" and "The Nth Degree").
-Mike

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Re: The YAWCF debate (poll)

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Wed Mar 31, 2010 11:12 am

Good morning, folks. Episode 07 is up. It should be a pretty boring one. Not too many dead people. We could use the following:
  • "WORD A" - whatever residue Federation photon torpedoes might leave.
  • METAL A - something that Imperial fighters are constructed with that Federation ships aren't.
  • METAL B - the opposite, something Federation ships use in quantity that wouldn't be seen in Imperial fighter debris.
  • NUMBER B - How many squadrons of stormtroopers were dispatched to the reactor room. This is a maximum security scramble.
  • STAR WARS SPECIES A - something tough.
  • STAR WARS FOOD A - what Slar made a mess out of.
We have two new names. An imperial commander (yes, another one) and a stormtrooper sargeant. We also need two Star Wars-style epithets! We can re-use an earlier one if you like. I suppose I may have to come up with some of these myself.

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Re: The YAWCF debate (poll)

Post by 2046 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:06 pm

Jedi Master Spock wrote:Good morning, folks. Episode 07 is up. It should be a pretty boring one. Not too many dead people. We could use the following:
  • "WORD A" - whatever residue Federation photon torpedoes might leave.
  • METAL A - something that Imperial fighters are constructed with that Federation ships aren't.
  • METAL B - the opposite, something Federation ships use in quantity that wouldn't be seen in Imperial fighter debris.
  • NUMBER B - How many squadrons of stormtroopers were dispatched to the reactor room. This is a maximum security scramble.
  • STAR WARS SPECIES A - something tough.
  • STAR WARS FOOD A - what Slar made a mess out of.
We have two new names. An imperial commander (yes, another one) and a stormtrooper sargeant. We also need two Star Wars-style epithets! We can re-use an earlier one if you like. I suppose I may have to come up with some of these myself.
Word A would relate to gamma radiation or pions, if we go with standard non-dilithiumized reactions. But pions degrade quickly into muons and neutrinos, so better to roll with one of those unless you're right on top of the thing as it blows.

Metal A would be durasteel as a prime candidate. There are others, too . . . I was just building a list the other day of Star Wars materials, but I don't remember where it is right now. As I recall, though, there are also mentions of steel with no modifier in regards to the Death Star . . . I don't know that we've ever actually seen steel on a Federation ship.

Metal B would be tritanium as the most obvious choice.

Number B . . . on an ISD? Given the low crew density observed of Venators, I wouldn't argue for more than 3 or 4, and that's high . . . depends on your preference for the number in an Imperial squad.

Species A . . . Tough as in fighter, or just tough? Tough animal, sapient form, vegetable, best two out of three?

Food A . . . the only canon foods I know of offhand are the Naboo fruits from AotC or the nasty whole frog things from TPM or blue milk. And ruby bliels, too . . . I think they're something akin to sno-balls but maybe not as cold.

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Re: The YAWCF debate (poll)

Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Apr 01, 2010 5:37 am

Jedi Master Spock wrote:Good morning, folks. Episode 07 is up. It should be a pretty boring one. Not too many dead people. We could use the following:
  • "WORD A" - whatever residue Federation photon torpedoes might leave.
Gamma rays, pions, muons, leptons, and neutrinos are all the standard real world science residue. For Trek, you can assume there will be something or the other subspace mixed in with chroniton or other related Treknobabble particles given the wonky nature of antimatter in that universe.
[*]METAL A - something that Imperial fighters are constructed with that Federation ships aren't.
Suggestions: Durasteel, titanium (yes, it is actually mentioned in the EU), alusteel (used on Y-wings according to EU sources), Quadanium steel (used on Death Stars), tricopper, Hollinium.
[*]METAL B - the opposite, something Federation ships use in quantity that wouldn't be seen in Imperial fighter debris.
Tritainium, duranium, or nitrium.
[*]NUMBER B - How many squadrons of stormtroopers were dispatched to the reactor room. This is a maximum security scramble.
In real life typically 4-10 soldiers to a squad, so at least 3 heavily armed squads, the closest troopers to that section of the ship.
[*]STAR WARS SPECIES A - something tough.
Suggestions: a gundark, rancor, banthas, krayt dragon.
[*]STAR WARS FOOD A - what Slar made a mess out of.
Suggestions: Ryshcate, nerf sausage, Mounder potato rice, Alderaan stew, Wasaka-berry pudding, trakkrrrn ribs, blumfruit and muja fruit or any combination thereof.

Jedi Master Spock wrote:We have two new names. An imperial commander (yes, another one) and a stormtrooper sargeant. We also need two Star Wars-style epithets! We can re-use an earlier one if you like. I suppose I may have to come up with some of these myself.
The stormtrooper is likely a clone, so a number like "TK-1138", might suffice. For the commander, something pompus like Elan Daro.
-Mike

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Re: The YAWCF debate (poll)

Post by Praeothmin » Thu Apr 01, 2010 1:08 pm

For the ST alloy, Duranium would be the best choice, because it still composes the majority of the alloys on a Starship.
Tritanium, AFAIK, is only used on the newer ships, like the Sovereign, Prometheus and Luna-class.
Even Voyager, one of the newer designs, was mostly Duranium.
So an aging Ambassador class, even a refitted one, would still be composed mostly of Duranium...

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Re: The YAWCF debate (poll)

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:14 pm

2046 - the context is Sargeant stormtrooper commenting on how hard Crewman Slar was to stun.
Praeothmin wrote:Tritanium, AFAIK, is only used on the newer ships, like the Sovereign, Prometheus and Luna-class.
Tritanium was used at least as early as the Galaxy class, actually. It also shows up in TOS: "Obsession," which is where we get the idea that tritanium is incomparably tough.

I've posited before that the Constitution class may have been mostly tritanium construction, accounting in part for its greater density compared to the Intrepid class. See also here.

There is, of course, the duratanum/duranium issue, too, but I think it's an open question what would compose the bulk of the hull of an Ambassador class.

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Re: The YAWCF debate (poll)

Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:29 pm

Actually tritanium was fairly common in the TNG era according to Memory Alpha's article on the substance. Both the Intrepid and Galaxy class had bulkheads composed of the stuff, so that indicates fairly common usage in starship construction, and even a Axanar cargo ship of the 22nd century had it in it's hull construction.
-Mike

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Re: The YAWCF debate (poll)

Post by Praeothmin » Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:39 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:Actually tritanium was fairly common in the TNG era according to Memory Alpha's article on the substance. Both the Intrepid and Galaxy class had bulkheads composed of the stuff, so that indicates fairly common usage in starship construction, and even a Axanar cargo ship of the 22nd century had it in it's hull construction.
-Mike
And yet in the same article, it states that melting Tritanium was beyond the Federation's capabilities in TNG.
How the hell do you use something as an alloy if you can't even melt it? O_O?

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Re: The YAWCF debate (poll)

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:15 am

Then it's obviously an outlier since it is canonically stated in numerous other soruces to be used in Federation ship construction quite signficantly.
-Mike

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Re: The YAWCF debate (poll)

Post by Praeothmin » Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:00 pm

Is it possible there are different types of Tritanium?
Like there are different types of Uranium?
One type could be "purer" and denser, and tougher to melt...

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Re: The YAWCF debate (poll)

Post by Khas » Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:19 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:Gamma rays, pions, muons, leptons, and neutrinos are all the standard real world science residue. For Trek, you can assume there will be something or the other subspace mixed in with chroniton or other related Treknobabble particles given the wonky nature of antimatter in that universe.

-Mike
Actually, since muons and neutrinos are both a type of lepton, did you mean electrons and positrons for that? Because leptons are a class of particle, not a "species".
2046 wrote: Food A . . . the only canon foods I know of offhand are the Naboo fruits from AotC or the nasty whole frog things from TPM or blue milk. And ruby bliels, too . . . I think they're something akin to sno-balls but maybe not as cold.
If we want to go with canon, Leia does call Han a "scruffy-looking nerf-herder" in ESB, indicating that nerf meat is in the canon.

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Re: The YAWCF debate (poll)

Post by Mike DiCenso » Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:02 pm

Khas wrote:Actually, since muons and neutrinos are both a type of lepton, did you mean electrons and positrons for that? Because leptons are a class of particle, not a "species".
Noted, but if you want to get technical, even electrons (and electron neutrinos) are considered part of first generation leptons, so those are not part of a seperate catagory. I don't think quarks and gauge bosons are necessarily released in a matter-antimatter reaction.
-Mike

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