Top ten VS myths

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Top ten VS myths

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:49 pm

  1. Size is everything.
  2. Different models mean different ships.
  3. The ICS is "movie-level" (G) canon.
  4. It's beam weapons that take advantage of knowing shield frequencies.
  5. The Borg are smart.
  6. The Borg are dumb.
  7. The Rebellion was a negligible affair.
  8. The Enterprise is not a ship of war.
  9. Star Wars ships are all bigger than Star Trek ships.
  10. Star Wars/Trek is promoting a racist agenda!
Why:
  1. "Bigger" usually does mean scarier... but it's a very weak indicator.
  2. Sometimes people look too hard at details and miss the bigger picture, but we have a lot of cases where different models are used to represent the same ship, let alone the same kind of ship.
  3. Patently not, but a lot of SDN members make this claim while on other forums.
  4. Actually, the famous ST: Generations "shield frequency" incident involved torpedoes, not beam weapons.
  5. The Borg do some really dumb things, but it's not exactly consistent.
  6. The Borg do some really clever things, but it's not exactly consistent.
  7. Obviously not. It brought the Empire down.
  8. Then why does it go toe to toe with warships up to five times its size?
  9. Depends on choice of faction, time, and evidentiary standards how the comparison goes. The Venator) is actually smaller than a D'deridex, for example, and Borg cubes match up to SSDs. And in the SW EU, smaller warships are much more common.
  10. Both franchises tend to reflect the society they are created in. Both also overtly speak against racism while stereotyping alien species heavily.

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Post by ILikeDeathNote » Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:53 pm

You forgot an important one:

11.) Star Trek/Star Wars are "hard" science fiction series that accurately depict real-world physics in all situations and are 100% internally/externally consistent with perfectly collaborating visuals/dialogue built upon the foundation Stephen Hawking's tenants for absolutely realistic space movement as opposed to a simple storytelling vehicle for philosophy/theology/existentialism/mythical space opera built upon the foundation of Joseph Campbell's tenants for mythology/hugely successful milkings of cash cows built upon a storytelling vehicle for philosophy/theology/existentialism minus the philosophy/theology/existentialism with some isolated exceptions.

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Post by Airlocke_Jedi_Knight » Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:01 am

That too.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:06 am

12.) Star Wars turbolasers are LASERs.

13.) Turbolasers won't hurt the shields of Federation starships because they are LASERs.

-Mike

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Post by Flectarn » Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:45 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:12.) Star Wars turbolasers are LASERs.

13.) Turbolasers won't hurt the shields of Federation starships because they are LASERs.

-Mike
I don't think those are so much myths as persistent noob mistakes.

15. Particle shields stop particles and ray shield stop rays... even though the only time we've seen explicit ray shields they were used to stop jedi... which were not made of rays

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Post by ILikeDeathNote » Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:57 am

Flectarn wrote:
15. Particle shields stop particles and ray shield stop rays... even though the only time we've seen explicit ray shields they were used to stop jedi... which were not made of rays
We've seen ray shields all the way back in ANH - they protected the Death Star's exhaust port. They had a conversation about that being the whole reason why they had to use proton torpedoes in the first place despite the problematic targeting they would have to put up with.

Granted, we didn't literally see them, but we can safely assume they were there and were invisible to the naked eye.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:54 am

ILikeDeathNote wrote:
Flectarn wrote:
15. Particle shields stop particles and ray shield stop rays... even though the only time we've seen explicit ray shields they were used to stop jedi... which were not made of rays
We've seen ray shields all the way back in ANH - they protected the Death Star's exhaust port. They had a conversation about that being the whole reason why they had to use proton torpedoes in the first place despite the problematic targeting they would have to put up with.

Granted, we didn't literally see them, but we can safely assume they were there and were invisible to the naked eye.
Except when they're visible, like they were in RoTS. Probably due to the shield interacting with atmosphere.
-Mike

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Post by Flectarn » Sun Dec 07, 2008 7:08 pm

ILikeDeathNote wrote:
Flectarn wrote:
15. Particle shields stop particles and ray shield stop rays... even though the only time we've seen explicit ray shields they were used to stop jedi... which were not made of rays
We've seen ray shields all the way back in ANH - they protected the Death Star's exhaust port. They had a conversation about that being the whole reason why they had to use proton torpedoes in the first place despite the problematic targeting they would have to put up with.

Granted, we didn't literally see them, but we can safely assume they were there and were invisible to the naked eye.
if i'm not mistaken the death star in ANH had magnetic shields, which allowed the fighters to pass through. the exhaust port wasn't protected anymore then any other part of the death star.

....


and it turns out I am mistaken.
ANH script wrote:DODONNA: The approach will not be easy. You are required to maneuver
straight down this trench and skim the surface to this point. The
target area is only two meters wide. It's a small thermal exhaust
port, right below the main port. The shaft leads directly to the
reactor system. A precise hit will start a chain reaction which should
destroy the station.

A murmer of disbelief runs through the room.

DODONNA: Only a precise hit will set up a chain reaction. The shaft is
ray-shielded, so you'll have to use proton torpedoes.

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Re: Top ten VS myths

Post by KSW » Sun Nov 27, 2011 2:14 am

I'd like to state my own responses:
Jedi Master Spock wrote:
  1. Size is everything.
  2. Different models mean different ships.
  3. The ICS is "movie-level" (G) canon.
  4. It's beam weapons that take advantage of knowing shield frequencies.
  5. The Borg are smart.
  6. The Borg are dumb.
  7. The Rebellion was a negligible affair.
  8. The Enterprise is not a ship of war.
  9. Star Wars ships are all bigger than Star Trek ships.
  10. Star Wars/Trek is promoting a racist agenda!
Why:
1."Bigger" usually does mean scarier... but it's a very weak indicator.
Reality: bigger means easier target; the key is your bang/buck ratio: the Defiant being a case-in-point, as well as the Death-Star being mostly just a huge reactor (and fusion-bomb waiting to go off).
In "Red Squad" (DS9) we see that the Dominion Leviathan ship is indeed pretty invincible, but it only defeats the Defiant-class ship when the captain goes Ahab on it.
[2]Sometimes people look too hard at details and miss the bigger picture, but we have a lot of cases where different models are used to represent the same ship, let alone the same kind of ship.
[3]Patently not, but a lot of SDN members make this claim while on other forums.
They claim that all EU is G-level canon "except where it precisely contradicts."
No matter how inconsistent the figs.
[4]Actually, the famous ST: Generations "shield frequency" incident involved torpedoes, not beam weapons.
"Best of Both Worlds Pt. I" did cycle shield-frequencies against the Borg, but it only worked for a short while before they adapted.

[5]The Borg do some really dumb things, but it's not exactly consistent.
The Borg are kind of stupid against those they mistake for their own, but that's about it. Hugh, Locutus, and others who infiltrate or are assimilated into the collective are able to get plenty past them, but the Borg are fairly savvy otherwise.
[6]The Borg do some really clever things, but it's not exactly consistent.
Precisely in Voyager, where 7 is claimed to have a four-digit IQ, and know everything that the entire Borg collective knows. Meanwhile all the other Borg are fairly normal at best when separated from the collective, in "I, Borg" and "Descent" etc.
[7]Obviously not. It brought the Empire down.
Only because they had Jedi help, and one of them was the vice-emperor's kid.... so it came down to an inside-job.
[8]Then why does it go toe to toe with warships up to five times its size?
In DS9, Sisko says that the Defiant is "purely a warship," which would indicate that the other ships aren't particularly: this would explain why that design was used for long-range exploratory and research-missions, and are designated as "cruisers."
However just because it's not a warship, doesn't mean that it can't be fitted as one, or completely decimate more primitive ones. Consider a 747 airliner mounted with machine-guns, tactical radar and SRM's against a British Man o'war, it could easily destroy it with impunity.
[9]Depends on choice of faction, time, and evidentiary standards how the comparison goes. The Venator) is actually smaller than a D'deridex, for example, and Borg cubes match up to SSDs. And in the SW EU, smaller warships are much more common.
[*]Both franchises tend to reflect the society they are created in. Both also overtly speak against racism while stereotyping alien species heavily.
This constant SW obsession with size, is going to force me to use the "F-word--" the one you can say on television.
Again, it just makes them giant flying targets, since the ships are entirely different in terms of technology. In "The Changeling," we saw that a 1-meter ship like Nomad could pwn the Enterprise through superior technology, and so the Enterprise had vastly superior tech to the Empire, with their Antimatter alone being trillions of times more powerful than fusion.

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Re: Top ten VS myths

Post by Picard » Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:04 pm

Urm... antimatter is "only" 156 times more powerful than fusion - in real world at least, and we don't have much indication that it is different in Trek in any way; and as far as I know, we generally use RL physics whenever possible.

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Re: Top ten VS myths

Post by Mike DiCenso » Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:08 pm

Unless you go by the events of "Obsession" and "The Immunity Syndrome". There AM/M reactions are thousands of times more powerful than anything in Real Life.
-Mike

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Re: Top ten VS myths

Post by Lucky » Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:35 am

Here's one that comes up a lot:

16) "Simply by increasing the yield of the weapon you can overcome the shields of a UFP starship." (Federation ships have repeatedly taken insane yields without much trouble when their shields are up to the point that they can laugh off being hit with more energy then may exists in the unites, and at the same time the shields have been dropped or ignored by far lower yields..)

17)"A defense being immune to a certain type of attack no matter how powerful is a no limits fallacy."(You can't overcome everything with more power. No matter how powerful the laser it will never escape the black hole)

18)"The UFP does not use ECM as standard."(In Tomorrow is Yesterday Spock says that if they leave the atmosphere, and turn on their shield the US Air Force will not be able to find them, In TNG: First Contact the Enterprise-D sits in orbit of a near warp civilization, Voyager was able to go unseen over late 20th/21st century Star Trek Earth, and it's shuttles could even use it's shields to look like contemporary aircraft from a distance at least. The UFP even has ECM even works on your eyes..)

19)"Visuals are always correct, and should be taken over dialog no matter what."(Visuals are often off in some way such as Alderran being insanely small if scaled to the beam of the Death Star's superlaser, and similarly we have a runabout shrunken to 4 inches according to dialog, but the model was 6 inches for filming reasons)

20)"Venator-class can slug it out for hours if not days."(A Venator can be disabled by having it's main reactor hit, and boarded in 12 seconds to minutes by three Providence-class. Ep.406)

21)"Elite troops in Star wars only have trouble hitting the heros"(Everyone has a hard time hitting anyone with blasters in Star Wars including the Heros.)

22)"It matters what kind of reactors a group uses."(Both Star Wars and Star Trek are soft Sci-Fi, and contain evidence they likely can exceed the real world limits of fusion and matter/antimatter reactors.)

23)"The Galactic Republic and Empire controlled most of the galaxy that Star Wars takes place in."(SW:TCW Ep 406 and the Ep.4 novel seem to contradict this)

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Re: Top ten VS myths

Post by Picard » Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:55 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:Unless you go by the events of "Obsession" and "The Immunity Syndrome". There AM/M reactions are thousands of times more powerful than anything in Real Life.
-Mike
But that doesn't exactly fit with "Pegasus". Even vaporizing asteroid can't give more than 30-some gigatons per torpedo (EDIT: Unless you assume something insane like tritanium being nice percentage of its mass). On the other hand, we have "Relics", which, if my calculations are correct, give pretty insane shield power, far stronger than even highest TDiC estimates. I have also, unfortunately, deleted old calculations which have shown maximum photon torpedo yield to be ~ 4 teratons. However, if you include cheating E=mc^2 (which I wouldn't except maybe as counter-argument to Warsie "hypermatter = hyperpower" bullshit) then it is pretty much irrelevant.

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Re: Top ten VS myths

Post by Praeothmin » Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:33 pm

Lucky wrote:(You can't overcome everything with more power. No matter how powerful the laser it will never escape the black hole)
True, unfortunately, this quote is (correctly) used in regards to the "Lasers can't even penetrate our navigational deflectors", and said Navigational Deflectors have nothing to do with black holes...
19)"Visuals are always correct, and should be taken over dialog no matter what."(Visuals are often off in some way such as Alderran being insanely small if scaled to the beam of the Death Star's superlaser, and similarly we have a runabout shrunken to 4 inches according to dialog, but the model was 6 inches for filming reasons)
Or the E-D firing Phasers from a Torpedo Launcher in TNG (one of the earlier seasons)...
Or the Stormtrooper armor being cracked by a small fall on Endor...

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Re: Top ten VS myths

Post by Lucky » Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:46 am

Lucky wrote:(You can't overcome everything with more power. No matter how powerful the laser it will never escape the black hole)
Praeothmin wrote: True, unfortunately, this quote is (correctly) used in regards to the "Lasers can't even penetrate our navigational deflectors", and said Navigational Deflectors have nothing to do with black holes...
The point is that there are things that no matter how powerful the weapon you can not brute force your way in or out as the case may be.

In order to do it's job a navigational deflector has to be able to move all subatomic and large particles out of the way of the ship while it is traveling at FTL speeds through real space. The ship would be destroyed if photons, electrons, protons, ect could get through.

The Navigational deflector can be used to make singularities.
Scorpion
KIM: It looks like the Borg have accessed deflector control. They're trying to realign the emitters.
CHAKOTAY: Shut them out.
KIM: They've bypassed security protocols.
TORRES: We're emitting a resonant gravitation beam. It's creating another singularity.
CHAKOTAY: Reverse course.
PARIS: We're fighting intense gravimetric distortion. I can't break free!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_singularity
19)"Visuals are always correct, and should be taken over dialog no matter what."(Visuals are often off in some way such as Alderran being insanely small if scaled to the beam of the Death Star's superlaser, and similarly we have a runabout shrunken to 4 inches according to dialog, but the model was 6 inches for filming reasons)
Praeothmin wrote:Or the E-D firing Phasers from a Torpedo Launcher in TNG (one of the earlier seasons)...
Or the Stormtrooper armor being cracked by a small fall on Endor...
I never saw anything wrong with the Storm Trooper armor cracking beyond it making it very hard to reshoot the scene if they wanted to. Storm and Clone Trooper armor seems to be designed to be anti-blaster armor, and we know from Luke's hand that ablative armor works well against blasters.

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