Sovereign vs 1 Star Destroyer?

[Mr. Oragahn]

This wasn't my point. I meant that no Star Destroyer locates the Falcon with sensors. Her sudden, inexplicable disappearance would surely have set every Star Destroyer to sweeping the area, as Mr. Oragahn mentioned. Even if the Falcon's energy emissions were very low, it's hard to believe no scan could pick them up. An engine wake, a metallic signature, something. Luke, with his comparatively tiny X-Wing's sensors, was able to detect Threepio's presence on Cloud City when he was still a few hundred thousand kilometers from Bespin.

And Threepio was offline and in pieces at the time.

Trouble is, there was a large concentration of ships, a lot of surprise and plenty of theories of what the ship could have done, or where it could be.

I bet none included benig just under your bum. :)
That place was filled with spaceships. That's a lot of false bumps against plenty of hulls, radio messages, active sensing, ion exhausts, etc.
It's actually likely that most sensors were looking outwards, far from the fleet, instead of in the middle of the fleet.
Eventually, a few ships might have, but the buzz around could have been problematic and disrupt the Falcon's low signature.

As for C3PO, wasn't there a special signal in place, or some beacon?

[Kazeite]

Are you suggesting that ISDs have no omnidirectional sensors? :)

[Mr. Oragahn]

No.

[Cocytus]

The attributes you mentioned about "large concentrations of ships," and "false bumps against hulls" would apply as much to Cloud City as to the Imperial fleet. After all, there aren't many Star Destroyers in attendance of the Executor, hardly the 25ish we see in the Battle of Endor. (I'm just ballparking that.) And there are cloud cars zipping all over the place in Cloud City. If I remeber the EU correctly, Cloud City is some 16 kilometers across (my knowledge is admittedly outdated) making is almost as long as the Executor, and significantly more massive. As for Threepio having a beacon, he may have, there's nothing canonical, but it's hard to see how it could have been operational. He'd been blown into pieces, and was deactivated by the incident. His head didn't remain operational after it was disconnected. My guess is he had some sort of protection, a circuit breaker of sorts, for his power center and his droid brain in the event of a system overload, such as one might expect to result from being hit by a blaster.

Although, interestingly enough, Odo pulls off a trick similar to Han's to fool pursuing Jem'Hadar in Treachery, Faith and the Great River (DS9-S7) He powers down his runabout and conceals it in a Kuiper belt object. The Jem'Hadar, like the Empire, and very combat-oriented, so I'd assume that, for both the Dominion and the Empire, less R&D has been done to create better sensor arrays. In other words, their ships need only see well enough to shoot. (Even though, as Starfleet proves countless times, those better sensors offer an enormous tactical advantage.)

[Mr. Oragahn]

The attributes you mentioned about "large concentrations of ships," and "false bumps against hulls" would apply as much to Cloud City as to the Imperial fleet. After all, there aren't many Star Destroyers in attendance of the Executor, hardly the 25ish we see in the Battle of Endor. (I'm just ballparking that.) And there are cloud cars zipping all over the place in Cloud City. If I remeber the EU correctly, Cloud City is some 16 kilometers across (my knowledge is admittedly outdated) making is almost as long as the Executor, and significantly more massive. As for Threepio having a beacon, he may have, there's nothing canonical, but it's hard to see how it could have been operational. He'd been blown into pieces, and was deactivated by the incident. His head didn't remain operational after it was disconnected. My guess is he had some sort of protection, a circuit breaker of sorts, for his power center and his droid brain in the event of a system overload, such as one might expect to result from being hit by a blaster.

Did they really spot C3PO and not something else?
It's completely outlandish to have a ship spot a pile of scrape parts in the bowels of a very active super city, and yet fail to spot a still hot starfighter hiding behind an asteroid.
As a whole, for the EUphiles here, hiding behind an asteroid is a trick that works. Now, I'm not sure it's totally effective against active scanning, but I remember that ship Mara had, with Karrde, looking at Thrawn's operation.

[Mike DiCenso]

There's a big, important difference between the Falcon on the Avenger's conning tower and the Odo's runabout hiding from the Jem'Hadar: the runabout is deep inside, and therefore is not visible, whereas the Falcon would be readily visible to simple visual inspection. So yes, sensors in both cases failed, but in the Jem'Hadar's case, they had a quarry that was literally out of sight, too.
-Mike

[Cocytus]

That's true. I kind of buy Mr. Oragahn's argument that the crews would be so engaged in running sensor sweeps (we may know Imperial sensors to be useless, but I doubt the average Imp lackey would be willing to question the intelligence of running sweeps with sensors which couldn't detect an asteroid worm if one bit off the bridge tower) and/or preparing for hyperspace jumps (as they were when Han's "the fleet's beginning to break up" comment comes about) to really be glancing out the windows.

But to step back for a moment, that's about the best rationalization one can come up with for what is really a glaring example of failure on the Empire's part. Had some off-duty conduit scrubber with the latest issue of Twi'leks Gone Wild simply glanced out the window and thought "I don't think that belongs there, better call the bridge" the Empire would have ruled the galaxy forever.

[TheRedFear]

Thought I would start up a little VS thread since I didn't see one on the front page!

Scene: The Solar System since we know exact figures for it. Combatants start out on opposite sides of the Solar System.

Combatants: 1 Sovereign class starship and 1 bog standard Star Destroyer from the films

Rules: No leaving the battlefield or using short range FTL. Sublight speeds for both sides only.

Who would win?

Even at Sublight federation ships dance circles around Imperial ones. Impulse engines alone range anywhere from 25-99% the speed of light

Forget Warp Strafe.

Impulse Strafe for the win.

[Praeothmin]

Even at Sublight federation ships dance circles around Imperial ones.

Themore nimble ones like the Defiant, sure, but I've never seen the E-D do any kind of maneuvers that would make me believe it could "run circles" around an ISD.
It has way better maneuvering, sure, but it is still relatively flying straight in any fight we see, and the ISD should be able to tag it a few times.
It really comes down to: "Do you believe the wank from the ICS, or do you evaluate the fight from what is seen onscreen?"...

[Jedi Master Spock]

Even at Sublight federation ships dance circles around Imperial ones.

Themore nimble ones like the Defiant, sure, but I've never seen the E-D do any kind of maneuvers that would make me believe it could "run circles" around an ISD.
It has way better maneuvering, sure, but it is still relatively flying straight in any fight we see, and the ISD should be able to tag it a few times.
It really comes down to: "Do you believe the wank from the ICS, or do you evaluate the fight from what is seen onscreen?"...

Actually, as I pointed out here, we do see GCS execute ~90 degree turns in 4 seconds, and even the Executor's uncontrolled death spiral isn't more than 10 degrees per second.

While in control of their motions, ISDs don't turn more than 5 degrees per second from what I can see. Call a GCS halfway between an X-Wing and an Imperial Star Destroyer for nimbleness and you're being pretty accurate. Add in raw linear acceleration and we definitely can have running around in circles around a Star Destroyer.

[Praeothmin]

Actually, as I pointed out here, we do see GCS execute ~90 degree turns in 4 seconds, and even the Executor's uncontrolled death spiral isn't more than 10 degrees per second.

I agree that Imperial capital ships have all the maneuverability of a thrown brick, and yes, we have seen ships such a Nebula and a Miranda do a 180 degree turn in Emissary, while in combat, but notice that their combat runs were in straight lines, and what I said was that I haven't seen the E-D perform such a maneuver in combat, ever.
I agree, looking at the run it did against the array in ST: Insurrection, and the turns vs the Borg in ST: FC, it is way more maneuverable then any SW capship, but it still doesn't give it the ability to "fly circles" around any SW ship.

Add in raw linear acceleration and we definitely can have running around in circles around a Star Destroyer.

Linear acceleration.
Key word is linear JMS.
That acceleration has never been seen in combat maneuvers, AFAIK.
The best we may expect would be the 2 GCS' strafing run vs a Galor in a DS9 combat.
Against a stationary Galor, I might add, which still didn't show us "circle running"... :)

[Cocytus]

I agree that Imperial capital ships have all the maneuverability of a thrown brick, and yes, we have seen ships such a Nebula and a Miranda do a 180 degree turn in Emissary, while in combat, but notice that their combat runs were in straight lines, and what I said was that I haven't seen the E-D perform such a maneuver in combat, ever.
I agree, looking at the run it did against the array in ST: Insurrection, and the turns vs the Borg in ST: FC, it is way more maneuverable then any SW capship, but it still doesn't give it the ability to "fly circles" around any SW ship.

You're talking about two different Enterprises here. While I wouldn't expect a Galaxy class to be as maneuverable as the more compact, sophisticated and lighter-mass Sovereign, the D did have some impressive acceleration and maneuvering capabilities. It does perform a rapid turn to escape the Amargosa star's shockwave in Generations, and a similarly quick, though not as tight, turn as it warps off to the Viridian system. In Encounter at Farpoint, the E-D makes a rapid acceleration away from the Q barrier, coming a full 180 degrees before entering warp. That footage, or one part of it, has been used dozens of times over the course of the series when the E-D needs to escape from an area quickly (Q Who et alia.)

[Mike DiCenso]

I think this one has been done to death; the E-D has demonstrated a fairly impressive ability to maneuver when called for. I believe a few months ago I pointed out the E-D's 180 degree bank in a few seconds time from "The Defector" [TNG3] to escape a trap, but is blocked from going to warp as soon as the turn is completed by two Romulan warbirds.
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

OK, let me relate this to another discussion we had:
We know Jedi can TK, we know they can move fast, we know they can deflect Blaster bolts, although not all at the same time.

Same difference here:
Yes, the Galaxy and Sovereign have show impressive maneuvering from time to time, doing 180s and whatnot, but (and this is the kicker) never in combat...
Perhaps it takes too much power, perhaps these maneuvers are hard to do in combat with som many systems that need manning, I don't know why that is, but it was never (again, AFAIK) shown.

So although I agree that any Trek ship is more maneuverable then Wars CapShips, once again, they will not run circles around them.
Not even half circles, at best a sublight strafing while initiating a turn, but that's it.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Yes, the Galaxy and Sovereign have show impressive maneuvering from time to time, doing 180s and whatnot, but (and this is the kicker) never in combat...

The example I referenced was in the midst of combat - "Sacrifice of Angels," in fact. The GCS ships in question I gauged at about ~90 degrees in 4 seconds each were, in fact, shooting and pivoting pretty much the whole time. In fact, the one that starts that attack maneuver actively starts turning the other direction while still shooting.

And that, I think, is fairly conclusive. They may be slow circles, granted, but 20+ degrees per second in combat can let you fly circles around Star Wars capital ships. Maybe they can't bank 180 degrees in three seconds flat while in combat, but they can turn roughly four times as fast as SW capships while in combat.

Nor was the Galor they were attacking stationary. It's turning slower than they are, but it's moving and shooting itself (rewind a couple seconds to see it shoot, and watch closely.)

And that's quite enough to run circles around a Star Destroyer. It doesn't take very much to circle around something that turns no more than 5 degrees per second.