Who is like God arbour wrote:I'm no astronomer and can also only use wikipedia. According to it, in a
Red Giant, if it is heavier than 0.4 but less than 2.57 solar masses, the addition of helium to the core by shell hydrogen fusing will cause a helium flash — a rapid burst of helium fusing in the core, after which the star will commence a brief period of helium fusing before beginning another ascent of the red giant branch.
But it is irrelevant, what a Red Giant can do or can not do.
We'd first have to show that such an event is occuring.
I'm not sure how you attempt this.
Who is like God arbour wrote:
Wrong.
- GEORDI: Ignition sequence... six seconds... three seconds... Now.
Shock wave patterns within predicted range. Seventeen hundred percent rise in gamma radiation levels. Helium fusion rate increasing...
TIMICIN (concern showing): What about the heat and pressure levels?
GEORDI: Steady so far. Density at eleven hundred grams per cubic centimeter. Temperature approaching sixty million degrees Kelvin.
TIMICIN: We want it to stabilize at two hundred and twenty million.
DATA: Pressure wave harmonics dispersing. Temperature in target zone increasing... to eighty-one million degrees.
GEORDI: Still rising. Ninety million degrees Kelvin... And now one hundred ten million.
As you can see, shortly after the ignition, the temperature and pressure were steady. After Geordi has said that, the audience should hanker after the answer, if it has worked. Only after Data has reportet, that the Temperature has rised to eighty-one million degrees, the audience has known, that it has worked.That's why we can use those values.
But even if not, we have seen, how fast the temperature has risen. If you want, reduce the value by 10 percent and you will still have high enough values.
Why? This happens after the torpedoes have entered the sun and released their stuff, unless I missed something.
GEORDI
Torpedoes now entering the stellar
core.
TIMICIN
Their shields are holding.
Guidance systems normal.
GEORDI
Ignition sequence... six
seconds... three seconds... Now.
I think there lies the problem. I get the impression that the torpedoes did their job by reaching the core and probably released whatever they had to drop there, which triggered the reaction.
Which means that calculations would have to be based on the parameters prior the reaction.
GEORDI
It's your work that's made this
possible, Doctor...
BEVERLY
That's right, we're only the
delivery service here...
Experiment about to start...
WORF
Photon torpedoes... armed and
targeted.
It really seems that the torpedoes are loaded and will just serve to dump something into the core.
I don't see any evidence that the torpedoes need to survive during the whole reaction and even a bit after that.
That said, it's interesting to see how they can apply good resistance against pressure on small devices.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Who is like God arbour wrote:It was said, that Dr. Timicin has reprogrammed the guidance system of the photon torpedos. It was never said or indicated, that he has changed the hardware. Thus I have to assume, that the shields generator are the same as usually.
They worked on them for hours. Just to rework the guidance system? What's to rework in detail besides just dive into the sun. The gravity itself will do most of the work.
I can't remeber, that they have worked at a torpedo. We have seen several times, how they work at torpedos in other episodes - but not in that episode (as far as I can remember). There is no reason to assume, that the hardware of the torpedo was changed. If that would have been necessary, it may have been easier to build new probes from scratch.
And that it is not as simple as firing the torpedos into the sun and let the gravity do the work should be obviously, because otherwise, it would have been unnecessary, that Tmicin has needed forty years of his life to develop the programming, which will control the photon torpedos - without knowing, in which sun they will be fired. The Federation has just found the star, on which they have done their experiment. Timicin hasn't known it before and it is only logical to assume, that there were a lot of specific data from the star, that have to be programmed into the guidance system.
Ticmin obviously had some blueprints or some basis to work from, since he's been devising that program for 40 years or so, and it *only* took hours to get it applied to the torps.
We only see them for mere minutes, while we know they've been working on this for much more time. Therefore it's hard to say they never fiddled with torps before or even after that.
Timicin didn't have the resources to do so, and apparently (and logically), shielded torps were most suited for that operation, but even them needed a modification.
We can consider, though, and rather safely, that the many hours spent on the system, was Timicin adapting his program to the torps' systems.
But Timicin did make changes on the guidance systems.
I'll agree that there's no evidence that shields were modified. I didn't consider the strong possibility that it would take so much time to make Timicin's project fit with a Starfleet torpedo.
Mostly because I didn't consider that it would require such a massive reconfiguration and years of work just to have a torpedo fly towards the center of a star.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Who is like God arbour wrote:In Pen Pals, it was explicit said, that they have used torpedo casings to protect the probes, which were fired from the ship in orbit around the planet and were supposed to burrow themself through the surface of the planet to reach the dilithium lattices to shatter them. As was shown, the torpedo casing have survived these high impacts, which were fast enough to bring the torpedos down to the dilithium lattices in the mantle of the planet.
I need more data, and screenshots eventually, of the torps, holes and ground structure, to judge this case. Thing is, did you consider kinetic energy and momentum relative to such impacts, and the possibility that the torps, in that case, were modified to have their shield get also a NDF component?
It was said in the episode, that they have used torpedo casings to protect the probes. Further modifikation were not mentioned. I understand it so, that the standard-torpedo casing was enough to do that job. They have fired the torpedos as usually.
I'm sorry, but trekcore.com has not more screencaps from the torpedos. You have to look, if you can see the episode or find anything alsewhere.
But considering, what the torpedos have done in Half a Life, Pen Pals is not exceptionally.
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... 40&page=12
Mmh... let's see. First, it's an interesting torpedo formation with have here, with the four of them lined as a wall.
That said, there's no information to be used there. I did expect the glow to be present.
But we have proof that the probes were modified:
WORF
We are modifying Class One probes
so they become resonators. We
will then use torpedo casings
to protect the probes once they
begin burrowing beneath the
surface.
The probes will dig the holes, not the torpedoes.
So that leaves us with Half a Life, which in my opinion doesn't require any further calculations, and Pen Pals, which is ruled out because the diggin' is done by the modified probes.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Who is like God arbour wrote:I'm sure, that Harry Kim has learned, that there is such a thing like a photonic shockwave and the different methods to create one. But not as part of a tactical lesson. And because he couldn't imagine, that he would ever fire a phaser at a photon torpedo in that science class, he wouldn't have thought at a tactical application.
And he was in a battle situation as a newbie with little real experience and a science orientated education. I'm sure, you can understand, that he was a bit under the weather at that moment.
Besides, he has not asked, how a photonic shockwave could be created, but how the Romulan Captain has the photonic shockwave created. He hasn't thought at the obvious answer although he should have be able to guess it. That shows again, that he was a little bit jazzed.
That would be like Starfleet engineers not knowing about never pouring water into a concentrated acid.
I can buy the lack of skill to apply this knowledge to a combat situation, especially for a newbie, but not the idea that it would be so unknown.
Did the captain who fired at the torp enter special parameters for the phaser or something, exploiting an achille heal in a standard torp design?
Besides, I already gave plenty of reasons why if this phenomenon was so well known, it would be exploited more than so rarely.
There would be a whole chapter in naval tactics and strategies books about the danger of torpedoes, and exploiting photonic shockwaves. Many battles would be long range engagements, where the game is to shoot down your torpedoes the closer to your target.
Even more, at close range, no one would ever dare fire torpedoes, because of the fear of any accidental PS. Borg cubes wouldn't bother using a thousand guns, and suicide pilots wouldn't attempt last resort rams or fire all they have in the most traditional way (phaser+torps hurray).
No, sorry, it doesn't fly.
We don't know, what the Romulan Captain has done exactly.[/quote]
Oh but if he has done something very special and specific, then the PS shoudn't be a problem on a regular basis, because it precisely requires special circumstances and former knowledge to be applied in a certain way.
I mean, no matter how you swing it, it's always going to bite your butt. The whole phenomenon brings more problems than solutions. Either it's another trick of the day, or the writers trying to explain why shooting torps is bad, but if the second option is right, they didn't push the thought very far.
the only way not to blame the writers lack of foreseeing is to consider a PS to be very rare and hard to achieve.
And we don't know how well known the photonic shockwave really is and if there are a whole chapter in naval tactics and strategies books about the danger of torpedoes, and exploiting photonic shockwaves. Fact is, that we know near to nothing about photonic shockwaves nor how often they are used. We know only, that we have observed them only once and we know from one other case, in which a photonic shockwave was used (maybe for the first time) in a battle.
Maybe the photonic shockwave is only devastating to ships, that are not prepared, that there are possibilities, to protect one against a photonic shockwave. We don't know and have not enough data to make plausible conclusions with what we have.
It's precisely that glaring lack of data that makes the idea of not shooting down torps because of PS most unlikely.
Again, no matter how you look at it, I don't see the PS idea to be of any use. It brings far more problems than solutions.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Who is like God arbour wrote:The further examples weren't supposed to have anything to do with photonic shockwaves but were meant to give further reasons, why Star Trek battles are short range affairs.
If anything, your examples rather explain fairly well why the captains would try to put as much distance as possible between their ships and the enemy, and thus favour long range engagements.
The whole point is a bit of a gambit: gaining the surprise and reducing your enemy's ability to react, but getting closer to its cannons and making his job easier. As a whole, it surely increases the speed at which a battle outcome is determined.
The job is not necessary easier. At small distances, the angles between two relatic to each other moving ships is far higher. If a ship is only thousand kilmoeters away and moves thousand kilometers to the side, I have to correct the aim of my weapon by 45°. But if that ship is a million kilometers away and moves thousand kilometers to the side, I have to correct the aim of my weapons only by 1,5°. A shorter reaction time increase the problem only.
Which would make captains favour long range fights, not close ones. That said, don't take it badly, but I have never been really impressed by the military aspect of Trek ships until the Defiant came into the dance. From time to time, you may have had your ships with aft launching tubes, but they are few.
The Defiant has the advantage of being compact and extremely manoeuverable. It's one of the rare ships which can benefit from shorter ranges.
The bigger ones, even if some of them have displayed nice curving abilities in First Contact, still need to manoeuver a lot more to present their heavier weapons at a good angle.
And there was the Voyager, which at some point fired torpedoes from its sides at bioships. I don't know if it was a late modification, but it was a good feature.
Well, I digress. As a whole, it doesn't help much here.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Who is like God arbour wrote:Optical sensors wouldn't be »Eyeball Mk I«. If you want to look for disruptor bolts with the naked eye, as I assume was you proposal, when you have proposed »Eyeball Mk I« as fire control sensor, you have to position crewmans at each window of the Enterprise. I know, that there would be better fire control sensors. But you wanted »Eyeball Mk I«.
It was, ahem, an image. If our eyes can see the beam, if a minimum of parallax can determine the position of the beam, its beginning and ending, then a civilization that builds robots, human-like AIs and visors and gazillons accute sensors shouldn't have problems to place sensors all the lenght of a ship to get a well defined estimation of the enemy's position.
Again,
todays fire control sensors have nothing to do with what a civilization that builds robots, human-like AIs and visors and gazillons accute sensors can do. Kane Starkiller was speaking of
todays fire control sensors and not of Starfleets fire control sensors.
Sorry, I get a bit lost, and I'm not really concerned about who started the argument or what. My point is that it would require very little technology marvel to have robotic eyes (your sensors) and computers to extrapolate the position of the enemy ship from the observation of the beams.
It's extremely basic.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Who is like God arbour wrote:But let us stop this part of the debate. We have already established, that the Enterprise has good sensors, that were able to detect disruptor bolt, when they have emerged from the cloacking field and the shield impacts of their own weapons. I see no reason to argue the question, if »today's fire control sensors and computers would be able to easily detect the disruptor bolt's point of origin as Scimitar fires, feed the sensor data into weapons control computers and fire back.« and if the naked eye qualifies as »fire control sensors«.
And yet they don't do it. It's possible that their sensors have become so specialized that they're not capable of measuring beam specific emissions with more mundane sensor systems.
I mean, hello, really. If a person can get an idea of where the beam is coming from just by looking at a screencap...
So either you admit that the sensors have severe flaws, or that some kind of jamming was going on, as suggested.
If I were you, I'd certainly opt for the jamming, without necessarily neglecting the possibility that the Federation use so complicated sensors (maybe relying on subspace) that they have left more primitive means behind them. Yet, in that case, it would have greatly helped them.
It's a bit like like if you were dealing with an enemy which can render your antimatter inert (don't ask). You'd sure be happy to still possess old fashioned nuclear warheads onboard.
If you watch
that video, you will notice, that they obviously were able to detect the Scimitar fairy well.
I don't see a reason to assume, that the sensors are flawed or that there was jamming. If one or both of these would be true, how do you explain the high targeting precision?
If the sensors were bad, each hit should have been a fluke. But that was obviously not the case.
Yes, they were, but once they detected it, they didn't keep trying to spot it when firing torpedoes, and they had no way to update the info into their torpedoes.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Who is like God arbour wrote:You are correct, we have never seen a photon torpedo doing evasive maneouvers. But we have never seen, how anyone has tried to shoot down an enemy torpedo. I know only examples, in which the own torpedos were shoot down. Therefore there was simply no need for a photon torpedo to make evasive maneouvers and therefore, the fact that we have not seen any, is meaningless - unless you are able to find a situation, where a photon torpedo should better have done an evasive maneouver.
Are we going into some kind of circular reasoning? They don't evade defensive shots because no one shoots at them. No one shoots at them, so they don't try to evade defensive shots. I couldn't believe such a humourous situation would have been going on for centuries. :P
No, no one shots at them because they know, that they are not able to destroy a photon torpedo because it is protected by strong shields. We already know, that they have strong shields. That is an intangible canon fact. That is not a circular reasoning.
But you are doing it because you don't accept, that torpedo shields are strong enough to withstand most attacks.
I verified the script, and for the moment, the super strong shield idea you seem to be on doesn't have much support. Capital ships' phasers have more than enough juice to puncturate such shields.
Fact is, that if torpedos could be shot down, they would at least try it. Even if you think, that their accuracy is not good, you will have to admit, that it is not that bad either and that, if they would at least try it, there is a realitical chance, that they would hit - at least per coincidence. But they don't even try it.
And if it would be possible to shot down torpedos, why wouldn't they install CIWS or similar systems? Why would that be the case? Are they to stupid? Or do they know, that it is useless? What is the more plausible reason?
Isn't it that most of the time torpedoes are fired, most engagements occured at close ranges?
See again the problem of vector probability. In the heat of a battle, at close ranges, and with the idea, somehow, that it would take a bit of time to lock on torpedoes adequately, you see why as a whole they don't bother much.
It's not a superb excuse, but by far, it's one of the best.
Strong shields and PS being out, there's not many contenders left.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Who is like God arbour wrote:As Nemesis has shown, at least the Enterprise E is able to aim her weapons very fast. In several other episodes of Star Trek, we have also seen, that accuracy is not a problem. Considering, what we know from the reaction time, weapons range and accuracy of Star Trek ships, they are able to hit photon torpedos with ease.
You see, that's the super accuracy point I'm not so hot on. There's just lots of claims, and not much evidence for the moment.
There were several episodes named in that thread, which are proving high accuracy.
Already the old Enterprise has fired in »The Changeling« at the only one meter high space probe Nomad at a distance of circa 90'000 kilometer.
Huh, that was a phaser shot? What were the conditions?
In »The Price«, the new Enterprise (D) has shot down a missile.
This one was adressed. There wasn't any surprise at all, and all parameters were known.
In »Conundrum«, the Enterprise has shot down several small Lysian sentry vessels.
I think I remember seeing that on Youtube. Excuse me, but I also recall that they were still big enough, they didn't fly terribly fast, and were shot down within less than 2 kilometers or so.
Got any video by chance?
In »Workforce« the Voyager was able to hit her own torpedo and the Romulan Captain as well.
Did this torpedo have anything special that would have prevented the Voyager from hitting its own torpedo?
Were the sensors eluded? Did the crew ignore the torpedo's target, vector or behaviour?
What was the range?
In »Generation«, there was a not so small chance for the Enterprise in orbit around Veridian III to shot down the probe before it would have reached the sun, although it was supposed to be 45 times faster than light.
I'm going to ask for more details, even if I think I understand that the Enterprise couldn't hit that probe because it flew at 45c (warp how much?).
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Who is like God arbour wrote:That they don't do it, allows only the conclusion, that they wouldn't be able to destroy the photon torpedo. Logical conclusion: the shields are too strong.
They don't seem so. I mean, let's get clear, that captain guy shooting down a torpedo for his neat trick pretty much shows it's possible to... shoot down a torpedo.
It shows, it is possible to hit a torpedo. It doesn't show, that it is possible to destroy an enemy torpedo. As I have already said, it is not difficult to destroy the own torpedo, if you know its shield modulation or order it to drop the shields remotely. But you can't do the same with an enemy torpedo.
Ah but do we have any evidence that teh Romulan captain exploited the shield frequency or even had the torpedo's shield lowered? I bet that if the glow is still visible, it does gives a no to the second question.
You know, thinking of it, I think I may have another idea about why ships don't use phasers against torps.
There's been several occurances of things cascading backwards along the phaser beam. I've read one a while when the Enterprise hit some mineral in the crust of a planet, and another case recently, when reading stuff about Borgs and S8472 I think.
Maybe doing so generates some effect that goes back into the... oh screw that. It's stupid. If it was true, then all shields would be made in such a way that no phasers would be used, a bit like lasers against Dune's infantry shields.
Well, just a bit because in Dune, they don't do it otherwise they get some kind of nuclear firework.
Or, wait. Maybe this can work, but let's say that they don't apply it to ship's shields because it would destroy both the assaulted ship and firing ship at the same time, for the same reason that shooting at a torpedo would destroy the torpedo and destroy the ship's phaser banks, and probably cause lots of secondary damage, maybe even resulting into a chain reaction destroying the whole ship.
Not a super explanation either, but it fits with most standard ships. No one would put such shields on ships, but would gladly put such shields on torpedoes. After all, ships' shields don't glow like torp shields do.
