The UFP and The Dominion Vs the GE

[Admiral Breetai]

[quote="StarWarsStarTrek]Please show an example of The Federation by itself creating a star using its own technology.][/quote]

I already did you ignored it


[quote="StarWarsStarTrek]Actually, the Cardassian economy at its height produced 10,000s of thousands of ships in full war mobilization over several years...[/quote]

The Dominion the spoonheads nev er had that many vessels

[quote="StarWarsStarTrek]meaning that it amounts to less than 0.000001% of the Empire's industrial capacity, and by extension, economic might.[/quote]

not shown on screen equals invalid

[quote="StarWarsStarTrek]We know from the G canon film-novel of ROTS that there are quadrillions of people in the Galactic Republic.[/quote]

i could barely care this was never shown on screen
[quote="StarWarsStarTrek]
You mean thirty. And thirty ships of that size would amount to less than a millionth of the mass of the Death Star, which was constructed in the outer rim in secret.][/quote]

no I mean between thirty thousand and a hundred thousand plus planets and dead stars

[Picard]

GALACTIC REPUBLIC

In Attack of the Clones, we learn that Kaminoans have 200 000 clones ready, and million more on the way. Later it increases to maybe 5 000 000 clones.

SEPARATIST

„Our Droid armies outnumber the Republic clones a hundred to one“. – Dooku

From that, we can get 120 000 000 to 500 000 000 droids.

GALACTIC EMPIRE

Imperial Fleet has 26 000 ships of ISD-level equivalence. Let's assume that capital ships are equivalent to 25 000 ISD's (in both firepower and crew count) and that there are 150 000 fighters. ISD's volume is 11.9 times of volume of Galaxy class, according to Darkstar's volumetric page. With that, and assuming similar crew density, we can get 12 000 number for ISD's crew. That is 300 000 000 people for crew, plus 150 000 fighter pilots.

UFP

Starship crews
Galaxy – 1000
24th century Miranda class - 26 – 35.
Intrepid class - 141.
Average starship - ~200 (est.).

Considering that there are ~9 000 capital-grade starships in UFP, we could be looking at 1 800 000 people in crews of starships alone.

However, with Cardassia having 5 to 25 million men, and Klingon Empire 75 to 225 million, UFP should have 80 to 300 million men total.

CARDASSIA

Eleventh Order (reserve land unit) – 500 000
Unit under two Guls and Legate – 600 000
Both ground Orders; total of 12 Orders would result in number of 6 000 000 to 7 200 000 men.
If Cardassians had 5 000 ships, with 250 crewmembers per ship – 1 250 000 men in fleet
7 000 000 Cardassian soldiers died in a war (for comparation, USSR lost 9 000 000 soldiers in WW2 (6 300 000 KIA and 550 000 died from illness); at beginning of war they had 4,826,907 men and additionally conscripted 29,574,900 men). It means that Cardassian military is probably from 5 000 000 to 25 000 000 men.



2 Glinns report to a Gul; Gul may lead an Order

KLINGON EMPIRE

1/3rd of Klingon military was enough to fight Cardassians to stalemate after they have recovered from initial strike and managed to mobilize. Klingons probably have around 7 000 capital ships and probably few thousand BoPs (say, 3 to 8 thousand).

As for ground forces, Klingons probably have 25 000 000 to 75 000 000 men, probably even more, considering fact that Cardassians were fighting defensive war; given that 1 : 3 ratio is generally required for attacker to defeat defending army, 25 to 75 million figure might simply be what Klingons threw into Cardassian space, for total of 75 to 225 million soldiers.

ROMULAN EMPIRE

While we don't have much data on Romulan Empire, it is considered to be one of 3 Alpha Quadrant superpowers, althought smallest of three. With that, and due to massive size of Warbird, and Warbird being just slightly weaker than Galaxy class, I would not give more than 1 000 to 2 500 capital ships in Romulan fleet. Also, total manpower in military is probably similar to UFP and Klingon Empire, just slightly smaller, for total of 20 to 55 million men.

Excerpt from my, as now non-uploaded, military comparation page.

Please show an example of The Federation by itself creating a star using its own technology.

They revived a dead star, and created a planet (Genesis project).

[StarWarsStarTrek]

I already did you ignored it

Not just an episode name; I don't have time to watch an entire episode at this point. Please give me context and a link if possible.

The Dominion the spoonheads nev er had that many vessels

Which helps your argument how?

not shown on screen equals invalid

Are you claiming that this:



was never shown on screen?

i could barely care this was never shown on screen

But Lucasarts cares. George Lucas cares. George Lucas says that the film-novels are MORE canon than the clone wars cartoons. Your opinion has no authority on the matter.

Besides, did you really expect to see quadrillions of people on screen? We don't see any of TCW scenes in the films either, but you have no problem with using them, even though the film-novels are more canon than them!

no I mean between thirty thousand and a hundred thousand plus planets and dead stars

I don't get it. "and a hundred thousand" adding to the "thirty thousand", or combined with the "plus" with "planets"?

[Lucky]

Witness the amazing accuracy of starfleet personnel:
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Nemesis/Nemesis-25.jpg

Fedy shooting from cover, check

Fedy barely missing a guy who is moving, check

Fedy's shot going exactly where the target had been moments ago.

Bady taking cover, and doing his best to get out of the line of fire.

How is this showing Star Trek in a bad light, even the cannon fodder villains are taking cover?

VS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-W1ONO2Uxo

The fact you had to drag out Nemesis, the worst Star Trek shows you don't have much

Oh really? Show me one instance in which anybody in Star Trek ever uses a grenade.

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Grenade_launcher
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Sonic_grenade
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Stun_grenade
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Photon_grenade
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Gas_grenade
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Plasma_grenade
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Pressure_grenade
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldzSczLk ... r_embedded

6. Yet were still losing after the initial shock until Chewbacca hijacked an AT-ST

The best solders the Emperor had only got about two Ewoks out of how many?

Does ease of use have much to do with this topic? Redshirts have no armor, no helmets, no HUD...stormtroopers do have all of these.

The UFP has armor, and you know it. Heck the standard uniform is armored.

What does a Storm Trooper's HUD do? A simple infrared sensor would have made the Ewok ambush impossible.

You mean scanners that can track ships going at millions of C and jamming equipment/shields so powerful they distort space-time?

You are going to need to provide evidence for these

Star Trek specifically the UFP has real time FTL sensors, and is very good at jamming.

You see, I'm not claiming that stormtroopers are competent. I am saying that while they may not be good shots, they do have advanced equipment and some basic semblance of cover. Redshirts have inferior equipment, are no better shots and use tactics that rival the movie starship trooper MI in competence.

You need to provide evidence of this.

There are also examples, like the Siege of AR 558 where Sisko is being charged by jem hadar soldiers, whom engage him in hand to hand combat.

What would Storm Troopers be like after 5 months of combat without reinforcements, resupply, and constant combat?

As for stormtroopers doing better, do you ever see any non Force using characters try and engage them in hand to hand combat with a few exceptions (ie Chewbacca in ESB) that involve specific circumstances?

4:10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LI_vo2F ... re=related

The fact of the matter is anyone with a gun will normally choose to attack at range. It's not like Klingons drop their guns to use knifes.

I do have to wonder why clones often charge to engage droids in HTH?

Which would mean that Obi Wan spent, depending on your figures for SW galaxy size, a few weeks to a few years in his small starfighter going to Kamino, and that senators, who regularly convene in meetings and sometimes even call for emergency meetings, spend most of their time in office just traveling via hyperspace. Oh, and the geonosians waited for several months to try and execute Anakin, Obi Wan and Padme.

What makes you think the senators don't spend their most of their time in the capital? I seem to recall it being a point that the senators rarely leave the capital.

Which would mean that Obi Wan spent years in his small starfighter traveling to Kamino. I wonder where he went to the bathroom? Or that senators would spent years just traveling to an average meeting, and that Han Solo and the gang spent several years just inside the Falcon to get to Alderaan. Thinking of that, Han must have been paid too little, if he did indeed get paid!

How large do you think the Star Wars Galaxy is? There are source that place it at 10 to 12 thousand light years in diameter,.

Some planets as i recall are only parsecs apart.

Hyperspace lanes make all the difference. Without good lanes just going something like ten parsecs can take hours or possibly days as seen in the Malevolence trilogy..

"The vast rebel fleet hung poised in space, ready to strike. It was hundreds of light-years from the Death Star --- but in hyperspace, all time was a moment, and the deadliness of an attack was measured not in distance but in precision."

You do know what hyperbole is, right?

In this time, Luke was transported from Endor to the Death Star. This takes what...a few minutes? We know that SW ships can achieve orbit in a matter of seconds, or minutes if you so incline for this post, so therefore, even if it took 15 minutes for them to transport Luke to the Death Star, and the Rebel fleet was only 200 light years; the minimal interpretation of hundreds, away, since it arrived after Luke was on the death star, that means that the Rebel fleet was moving at around 5 million C.

Given there are always cuts between takeoff and reaching orbit we can't tell how long it takes to reach orbit.

I'd suggest you choose something with less unknowns to calculate.

Vader called bounty hunters from various parts of the galaxy to meet him in the obscure outer rim Hoth asteroid belt. Even if it took them all 2 days to get there; increasing this number increases the damage the ISDs' shields took in the belt, and also makes less sense as Vader would have expected the Falcon to have been long gone had he waited to long, would imply speeds in excess of 3 million to 30 million C depending on the SW galaxy size you use.

How do you know that the bounty hunters hadn't been on the ship to begin with?

How do you know they hadn't been just a few light seconds away?

If hyperdrive were not faster than warp drive, it would have taken Obi Wan several years to get to Kamino, and Anakin would have been in his twenties by the end of TPM.

According to that map, the star Wars Galaxy has a diameter less than four times the distance between Endor and Sullust and fifty times the distance between Geonosis and Tatooine.

At least as far as the distance between Sullust and Endor is concerned, that map is compatible with the map of » Vector Prime «.

It seems that the Star Wars Galaxy is a very small Galaxy with a very high density of habitable planets.

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s4/W ... sMap-1.gif

Let's see:

PICARD: That's not possible. Data, what is our distance traveled?

DATA: Two million -- seven hundred thousand light years.

...

GEORDI: And I calculate that at maximum warp, sir ... it would take over three hundred years to get home.


That calculates out to about 9000 C. Compare that to the consistent showings of >million C for hyperdrive, and you're in a losing position.

What do you mean by 9000c and million c? A light year is a measurement of distance, and not time, or speed.

We know 9000 light years a year is wrong, or they were giving what amounts to a worst case scenario. It doesn't take about a year to get from one end of the Federation to the other, and there are three month training missions to circumnavigate the entire Federation before returning home., and that ignores episodes like "the Chase" gives us about 40,000 light years in days to weeks.

The slower the UFP's FTL the greater their industrial capability must be in order to create enough ships..

Do keep in mind Star Trek has canon levels like Star Wars only a little different.
Star Trek canon goes: Event > dialog > visuals.

For some more context:

GEORDI: Message on this has been transmitted to Starfleet, sir.

DATA: Which, traveling subspace, they should receive in fifty-one years, ten months...

They were about 2.6 million light years away, so the speed of subspace communication is about 52,000 C. What does this mean?

Yes, Star Wars TRAVEL speeds are greater than Star Trek COMMUNICATION speeds. You're pretty screwed if your enemy can run faster than you can shout.

What episode is this from?

That is an example of what the UFP can do without a relay system like what is always used in Star Wars..

More:

KOSINSKI: In three centuries of space flight, we have charted just eleven percent of our galaxy.

Hey, the Federation has charted 11% of the Milky Way. We know from AotC that the Galactic Republic has charted 100% of the Star Wars galaxy.

What episode?

Define charted. There are large areas of the Star Wars galaxy no one has been to.

More:

TASHA (over comm): Excuse the interruption, Captain, but this may be worth it. We're now receiving a signal from the probe.

PICARD: We'll take it here, please.

(Viewscreen shows forcefield being projected from planet, holding both the Enterprise and the Ferengi vessel in place)

GEORDI: Incredible!

RIKER: That's our mysterious "something," Captain. It is a forcefield of some kind...

PICARD: Reaching up from the planet surface. What amazing power! How does the legend describe the end of the Tkon Empire?

DATA: By their Sun going supernova, sir.

Picard is amazed by a forcefield that can wrap around a ship from the planet surface. Oh wow, notice how this is how the Death Star 2 was protected?

What episode? You need to site your sources.

You clearly haven't seen the episode, or you would know that the "force field" was more like the energy draining device in "Booby trap", and nothing like what was projected around the DS-2.

The UFP can generate a shield around an entire Earth like planet, and it is considered odd if something of importance does not have a shield..

More:

WESLEY: Sir! You'll soon be getting an intruder alert!

RIKER: What? Wesley, if you've something to report-

WESLEY: If you'll scan heading four-four mark one-six-three, Lieutenant, you'll find-

TASHA: Intruder alert, sir.

GEORDI: I've got something, sir. Very distant.

WESLEY: It's an old style starship, Constitution Class, heading this way under impulse power, sir.

RIKER: Says who?

PICARD: Carry on. Answer the first officer's question.

WESLEY: Uh... says the long distance sensors, sir. I was in Engineering, playing around with boosting sensor output ...

(The Ferengi beam over, there is a brief conversation)

...

TASHA: Do you want the arriving vessel on Main Viewer, sir? It is only a thousand kilometers away now...

Hey, the long range sensors of the Enterprise picked up a ship from 1000 km away, but did not pick it up when it was >1000 km away.

What episode? Source your quotes!>_<

So after someone messed with the sensors they aren't working right. The UFP has real time FTL sensors.

Here:

DATA (describing the mythical Tkon Empire): Again, only legend, but it describes the Empire as impossibly huge and powerful.

RIKER: Surrounded by stars whose planets formed its defensive system?

DATA: Correct, sir. Outposts. And the planet below was possibly one of them.

Data is amazed by the size of the Tkon Empire, despite the fact that they were wiped out by a single supernova.

We've seen a supernova threaten the galaxy in Star Trek, and the Tkon Empire is being talked about as if it was Atlantis. They clearly don't know much about it.

They clearly had a large number of systems for a single race if even just every star around their home system was a defensive outpost. Most races in Star Wars seem to only have one planet, and are lucky to have a billion people living on it.

[Praeothmin]

Do keep in mind Star Trek has canon levels like Star Wars only a little different.
Star Trek canon goes: Event > dialog > visuals.

Where did you get this info from?

[Lucky]

Do keep in mind Star Trek has canon levels like Star Wars only a little different.
Star Trek canon goes: Event > dialog > visuals.

Where did you get this info from?

StarTrek.com

07.10.2003
How do the Star Trek novels and comic books fit into the Star Trek universe? What is considered Star Trek "canon"?

As a rule of thumb, the events that take place within the live-action episodes and movies are canon, or official Star Trek facts. Story lines, characters, events, stardates, etc. that take place within the fictional novels, video games, the Animated Series, and the various comic lines have traditionally not been considered part of the canon. But canon is not something set in stone; even events in some of the movies have been called into question as to whether they should be considered canon! Ultimately, the fans, the writers and the producers may all differ on what is considered canon and the very idea of what is canon has become more fluid, especially as there isn't a single voice or arbiter to decide. Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry was accustomed to making statements about canon, but even he was known to change his mind.
In the publishing world, there used to be two exceptions to the novel rule: the Jeri Taylor- penned books "Mosaic" and "Pathways." Many of the events in these two novels feature background details of the main Star Trek: Voyager characters and were to be considered as references by writers on the show. Now that the show is over, some of those events may never be incorporated into a live action format, so the question of whether details from these novels remain canon is open to interpretation.

With regard to the Animated Series, there are a few details from the episode "Yesteryear," written by D.C. Fontana, that reveal biographical background on Spock and planet Vulcan. Details from this episode have been successfully incorporated into the canon of Star Trek (such as in "The Forge") and now that the Animated Series is out on DVD, we hope that even more can make its way in!

The events are canon rather then the visuals or the dialog, and this makes sense since any sane person will realize writers and visual effects artists make mistakes, and dialog and visuals have been known to be altered years later. The only thing that is never changed is the basic events that happen in the episode/movie.

Dialog is more reliable then visuals because they are far less likely to be altered at a later date, and VFX are screwed up for a number of reasons such as not being something the VFX team can portray in a visual media such as objects moving near or beyond the speed of light, or doing things to try to make the scene more visually appealing like making a micro-meteoroid storm a meteoroid storm in direct contradiction to the dialog or having an object appear closer then it is.

[Mike DiCenso]

Does ease of use have much to do with this topic? Redshirts have no armor, no helmets, no HUD...stormtroopers do have all of these.

No, Stormtrroopers do not have HUDs. Luke in ANH even complains that he can't see a thing while wearing a Stormtrooper's helmet while on the Death Star.

As for Federation security or troops not having armor and helmets:



I guess that guy standing just beyond Chekov is not wearing a helmet or armor? Howabout this guy here next to Jake Sisko:



Looks like full body armor to me. Don't know if there was a helmet to go with it, but the body armor he's wearing is very similar to that worn by many modern military infantry and security forces.
-Mike

[Lucky]

Does ease of use have much to do with this topic? Redshirts have no armor, no helmets, no HUD...stormtroopers do have all of these.

No, Stormtrroopers do not have HUDs. Luke in ANH even complains that he can't see a thing while wearing a Stormtrooper's helmet while on the Death Star.

As for Federation security or troops not having armor and helmets:



I guess that guy standing just beyond Chekov is not wearing a helmet or armor? Howabout this guy here next to Jake Sisko:



Looks like full body armor to me. Don't know if there was a helmet to go with it, but the body armor he's wearing is very similar to that worn by many modern military infantry and security forces.
-Mike

Didn't the standard uniform in TNG era have "padding"in it?

[Picard]

Not in TNG series, but in TNG movies, yes.

[Lucky]

Not in TNG series, but in TNG movies, yes.

As shown in the It's A Wrap! sale and auction, a number of Starfleet uniforms have had muscular padding to increase muscular appearance. Such cases include two costumes for Tom Paris, one racquetball costume for Julian Bashir and a Star Trek: Deep Space Nine costume for Worf (to create a more Klingon appearance). According to Wil Wheaton, all the main cast members wore muscle padding during the first two seasons of Star Trek: The Next Generation, mainly because of the tight-fitting nature of the spandex uniforms used in these two seasons.[1]

Then there are things like people casually hopping around lava, and I seem to recall some feats involving cold.

[Cocytus]

From VOY "Basics" we have Chakotay leaping over a river of lava to help a native to safety. Neither he nor the native suffer any ill effects (namely burns) from their close proximity to the lava.

Then later on in "Displaced" Tom and B'Elanna enter the Argala habitat (which is -20 C) to evade pursuing Nyrians, who have a lesser tolerance for cold than humans or Klingons (though Klingons have a lesser tolerance than humans.) Paris eventually begins rubbing his hands, but otherwise doesn't seem particularly bothered. Janeway later beams into the habitat to confront the Nyrians and doesn't visibly react.

That's all I can recall at the moment, but it would seem Starfleet uniforms have some sort of temperature mitigation systems.

[Admiral Breetai]

it took a while for Leforge and that Romulan to begin to suffer ill effects on that planet despite the toxicity of the storm

[Mith]

Star Trek Voyager Deadlock.

In other words, you're stealing shit from Chuck's reviews because you're too lazy to do your own damn legwork. Yes, the incident with Tuvok and the other security officer was outright pathetic. How they managed to catch them off guard in that situation is outright unthinkable--however, the following incident of crew members who clearly weren't security officers running to a fall back position is not nearly as bad.

As stated maybe five minutes afterwards, we're told that 347 Vidians had boarded Voyager--and more were on the way. As other's had stated, Voyager had ~140, probably less given casualties along the way. So the fact was that despite what Chuck said--running was probably the best answer given that there would be no way for the three crewmen to hold them off and they very likely could have been in danger of being flanked.

In other words, Voyager was losing the ship because it was outnumbered at least three to one.

I agree that such was a tactical mistake to not use their grenades...but redshirts literally never use them, so it's even.

Starfleet security officers are just that; security officers. They don't use grenades as per their standard armament. In war time though, it's a whole different ball game. And at least you could offer some leeway to Starfleet given how little use ground battles are to them in the overall picture (ie, orbiting ships means that all but key facilities are fought over as any orbiting ship will pick off the enemy army), where as in Star Wars, they have entire legions dedicated to large scale combat.

As do Janeway/Picard/Kirk/etc. in almost every episode?

No? Do you even watch Star Trek?

Actually, they did fire quite a bit at the snowspeeders. Granted, they shouldn't have bothered with attacking the trenches, but that is a tactical mistake that modern commanders could make in the heat of battle.

That doesn't make any sense. You sort enemies based on priority--that's something they teach in you in the military, isn't it? The fact that the invading Imperial force wasn't aided by TIE fighters is more disturbing though. Those fighters could have pinned down those speeders nicely.

Which is special because:

1. It represents a symbol of ingenuity beating tech, something that trekkies fail to realize.

Lul, what? The people who literally save the day half the time via technobabble need to learn ingenuity? Are you serious?

2. It's special in Star Wars because it's a rare example,

No it isn't. In Attack of the Clones, the entire Clone Army led by the Jedi, charge straight in Neapolitan style ranking towards an enemy with semi-automatic weapons. The only thing that saved them was that the enemy literally could not aim worth shit.

but in Star Trek it happens so often that it's a regular occurrence.

It happens every so often yes, but at least when Trek fails, they fail at modern combat tactics. Not tactics that are centuries out of date.

R2 > a teenager.

Oh please. Wesley has fucked up and still come off as being superior to R2, like when he created an entire race of nanobots that infected the Enterprise D. Or when he built a tractor beam. Or when he modified the Enterprise D's warp engines to create an alternate universe--albeit a short lived one. Or every time they have a major problem, Wesley is always there to brainstorm with LaForge and Data.

He was a dork, but he was far more of an asset than an R2 unit.

You mean the supposedly uber Enterprise security that doesn't change their access codes after a spy has been detected among them?

That never happened on the Enterprise D. In fact, after Riker was abducted by mercenaries, even Troi--the least intelligent and competent person on the ship--stated that Riker's security codes were changed as per Starfleet protocol.

It was Janeway, who for some reason didn't change Seska's security codes when she left the ship. Why she didn't is a rather unusual thing, but then Janeway was never all that bright to begin with.

And the United States Navy of 12 aircraft carriers is enough to curbstomp basically any other navy in the world,

The United States has much more than 12 aircraft carriers. It has 12 supercarriers--yes, that's true. But those supercarriers aren't all that great in a firefight. In fact, due to their size and bulk, supercarriers suck in battle. That's why supercarriers travel in groups with destroyers and cruisers, who can protect the supercarrier from other ships.

And the US has hundreds of naval ships stationed around the world, not to mention submarines.

so surely the Spanish Armada of hundreds of ships could do the same! Because obviously numbers...uh, oh, there's more to war than numbers! Gasp!

Exactly, there is. And Starfleet and the Dominion both easily surpassed the Empire in technological capability. The Dominion is so advanced that they can create supernova and we already know that Starfleet can at least create novas with their hydrogen-enhancement technology. Hell, if the two of them are working together, either of their ship could deploy such a weapon.

Such things can be deployed by their own weapon systems too, such as torpedoes--and not rely on a massive, bulky station that costs a shit load of cash, time, and resources to build.

What about the classic example of Voyager taking 7 years to cross a portion of a quadrant despite having help from god like beings?

Most god-like beings didn't really do jack shit to help Voyager out other than paltry assistance. Kes was the only real example of a "super-being" who was willing to help them out to some degree and she only pushed them a few thousand light years.

Even so, it doesn't really matter. Any Founder is going to be able to find someone to buy the tech off of. And given that gold can be replicated and is valued at 10 credits a gram...well, guess how long it'll take for them to find someone to not only give them the working technology, but the means to replicate it.

So the Federation sent Voyager, and advanced starship, into unexplored space for 7 years with no way to refuel or resupply, and no backup plan? How stupid is that?

About as stupid as someone whose incapable of even reading a the wikipedia entry on Memory Alpha or Wikipedia to realize that Voyager wasn't sent out into unknown space by Starfleet, but rather was snatched up by an alien being with highly advanced technology.

It's that kind of stupid.

[Mith]

Let's look at the sides' comparative advantages:

-Empire:
Insanely huge Star Destroyers. I'm talking about the big Eclipse-class ones here, not your local ISD I and II-class. A lot of people on this topic keep implying that the Death Stars were the best, but actually they were not much use in battle, apart from their superlasers. Another thing people here(including me) seem to like is hard data, so here is some for you: Eclipse specs from http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Eclipse- ... _Destroyer
Length 17.5 kilometers
Armament Axial superlaser
Heavy laser cannons (550)
Turbolasers (500)
Ion cannons (75)
Tractor beam projectors (100)
Gravity well projectors (10)
This is impressive in itself, but the fighter complement is almost as impressive:
Complement TIE/In interceptors (600)
TIE/sa bombers (96)
All Terrain Armored Transport walkers (100)
Prefabricated garrison bases (5)

Wow...what kind of idiot would build a 17k ship for battles?

Yes, the Eclipse can present a threat, but it isn't as a ship of war. The best suited abilities for a ship this massive is to act like a carrier ship that allows the Empire to project heavy firepower where it needs to. The problem with the Eclipse is that it simply acts as though it's some sort of super warship.

Here's the problem with that and why in many modern navies, bigger isn't always better. It's the same problem our US Supercarries have; bulk and length. Larger ships are harder to maneuver and this is especially true in Star Wars. They also present a larger target that makes it easier for enemy ships to get a lock and fire on them. The Eclipse's superlaser is also limited to a forward firing arc--something the UFP ships are just going to avoid out of self-preservation. Then of course, the weapons on the side are aimed by manual gunners who'll try to track ships moving at .25c and fail spectacularly in most cases, save for filling space with so much volume.

And finally, a heavy bombardment from a small Federation armada would overwhelm the Eclipse's shields, which probably aren't designed to resist firepower as intense as that of a Federation starship.

Combine this with the fact that it has a crew of 712,645 plus 150,000 troops, and it is extremely formidable. Also, it is far cheaper than the Death Stars. Maybe it is just me, but I would rather have a few dozen of these than one big lumbering Death Star.

Of course you would. Anyone would. But the fact of the matter is that the Eclipse is still a rather poor, blunt tool to use as a war machine. Adding a superlaser to it is simply silly.

Charged plasma-based weapons
Star Trek's shields are build to withstand pure energy weapons such as phasers/photon torpedoes. I doubt that they would be able to block plasma-based weapons, more likely the bolts would either pass through, or impact and possibly cause a feedback surge. That brings me to the next one:

Really? Because I think Balance of Terror would disagree with you, where we see the Enterprise 1701--a Constitution class starship, using its shields to block a plasma weapon. In fact, plasma torpedoes are also used in modern trek settings by the Romulans and the Cardassians. They didn't magically pass through shields as you seem to imply.

Non-continuous weapons
Star Trek's continuous-beam phasers are prone to having surges sent back along them. I am thinking of Voyager: Drone (S.5 Ep.2) where the Borg invert Voyager's phaser beam and essentially blow out the emitter.

The level of skill it takes to pull that off, is as you're going to say, far beyond the ability of the Empire. It also seems to be beyond the ability of anyone but one of the most advanced powers in the ST universe.

Granted, SW may not have the ability to do this, but in any case ST can't do it to them.

Why would they need to? SW weapons are aimed by gunners rather than computers (meaning they're far less accurate), SW ships are far slower, their weapons are far weaker (higher calculations would be 1.5 megatons), and they rely on the war theory of World War II. Nary a torpedo launcher in sight.

Okay, Starfleet/Dominion:
Major advantage: Antimatter-based torpedoes. This in itself would be enough to challenge the Death Star, as one 2' x 1.5' x 6' torpedo can contain enough antimatter to annihilate a planet, let alone a starship. (this is based on the actual physical properties of antimatter, E = mc^2)

Torpedoes don't hold 100% volume of antimatter. In fact, very little room is dedicated to holding the antimatter as most of a torpedoes guts are sensors, subspace radio, engines, thrusters, and shield generators.

Photon torpedo yields tend to be around 45 megatons. In most cases, the enemy ship will recieve ~11-22 megatons from a torpedo impact.

And these are just your ordinary photon torpedoes, to say nothing of the Enterprise-E's quantum torpedoes or the Dominion's polaron torpedoes. Compare this to SW's proton torpedoes, which are stated in the Incredible Cross-Sections series(canon) to be thermonuclear-based. Wow, gigantic difference in power. This also means that ST's shields are engineered to resist those antimatter weapons, so a nuke would seem like a laugh. Oh, to top it off, Starfleet has the capability to manufacture Omega particles (1 Omega particle = 1 warp core full of antimatter--Voyager: The Omega Directive, S.4 Ep.21). Yowch.

...Ugh. The rest isn't even really worth talking about it's so silly.

[Picard]

Photon torpedo yields tend to be around 45 megatons. In most cases, the enemy ship will recieve ~11-22 megatons from a torpedo impact.

No and no, actually. Photon torpedoes are at least in hundreds of megatons (unless you're going by TM, which are not canon) and, in late TNG and later, can direct 100% of yield at target.