Gandalf wrote:Mr. Oragahn wrote:
You've said that fighters and bombers only attack unshielded ships which have suffered heavy bombardment from other capital ships.
This point adress I did.
First, the lack of logic of relying on fighters to finish off the job that the capital ships could do much faster without requirement all the logistic to maintain fighters and bombers.
Secondly, the problem being that your friends, and the ICS, tend to believe that even a ship's hull is uber strong, well enough to resist gigaton/teraton shots before failing. Are you going to argue that those various missiles and torpedoes are in that range now?
Missiles and torpedoes are established as being in the megaton range from the ICS and larger (
Slave I missiles and mines) I said that they could be used to attack
weak points on a ship, sensors, landing bays, exposed weapons turrets.
1. Mara Jade has her squadron aim somewhere close to the belly dome of an ISD if my memory serves me well. Is that supposed to be another glaring weak point? Seems like an ISD shield is only made of weak points.
2. Sensors being a weak point? Like those sensor globes, which happen to be on the bridge. You do realize that not only does this mean that once you've got the weak point pierced, you can cramp all that what have you in that zone to severaly damage a capital ship, but you also realize that some of these weak points are dramatically placed just above those command bridges which happen to make ships spin like a dancer during a funky ice parade when they're destroyed.
3. Right now, you're telling me that your wanked out ships have multiteraton level shields, not to say low digit petaton ones, and yet come with just so many holes that only a pack of megaton weapons can pierce them and blow them to hell.
That's just part of the finest nonsense I ever heard.
Thirdly, there's the ROTJ reference of Lando asking his squadron to divert the enemy starfighetrs' fire from the rebel capital ships. An order that would be pointless at the start of a battle if the said snubfighters were not dangerous to rebel capships.
I have repeatadly pointed out that at no time do we see a TIE engage a capital ship.
And we rarely see capital ships exchanging fire either. Count the number of scenes featuring plenty of rebel and imperial warships flying side by side and barely firing one single cannon.
It's not because we don't have an eye on every single damn TIE that it disputes Lando's point.
Anything that has more to do with a school than a church.
Right a series of books written by a sciencetist with solid logic, reasoning and methodalogy on his side. What exactly are you and your chorts bringing to the table?
That's an appeal to authority, and he used his position repeatedly to enforce ideas that even 10 years old kids can debunk.
Sorry if you feel a bit lonely here, but I think there's still time for you to think a little bit more before posting this kind of stuff, and realize that your sanctified friends over SDN have gone too far in their quest of making Star Wars the *most powerful mainstream fictional universe*.
And? What if Zahn based all of his stories on Ab Fab?
Where the inspiration comes from is irrelevant. Backstage stuff and all. The novel exist, their content exist and is declared canon.
It's funny how your group becomes so radical that you're actually dismissing entire pans of the EU just to suit your views.
And where conflict exists in the canon we take the higher canon IE: the movies which the ICS is based on and discard the rest.
You're showing a curious selective process here. You and your friends were very precious about remembering us how Chee's canon policy described in the Holocron was the way to go, as it made the EU canon yaddla yaddla.
Yet, you completely and conveniently forget that this same canon policy puts the ICS at the exact same level as the other EU novels, and even at the level of videogames.
So again, cherry picking.
This has to be some of the most absurd commments ever. He's a general. He has to know at least the very basic, like what can pose a menace to what. If he doesn't know that, there's no point putting him as a battle general.
It's obvious that the Alliance is posting hero's to the rank of General for the purposes of moral issues. And even their highest Admiral was unaware of a tactic first used by the Republic 20 years prior at the Battle of Courascant in which the Republic engaged the forces of the CIS at point blank range. And Ackbar was supposed to be privy to all of the Empires tactical information.
The context was different, and unless you want to admit that capital can't engage enemy ships safe at point blank range, then you should know that there's probably a reason to that, especially since they had already captured Palpatine, and yet remained in orbit of Coruscant just for the fun.
Funnily, you're the one being pro-EU, yet you completely negate all those stories about the CIS fleet being stuck between shield layers and whatever else about hyperspace jumps being interdicted, which largely explains why Coruscant was another special case, with factors that have nothing to do with Endor.
So what's your position? Double standard? Denial?
See, I can agree that the whole medical frigate deal is a bit vague, just like the rest of cases where fighters start to damage parts of ISDs. We don't know what dropped the shields, and we don't need a bridge scene, like Dragoon suggests.
But your point about Lando's position and knowledge in that case is pathetic, really. It's dramatic that you feel to reach that level of asinine claims to defend a position that had already been proved as relying on cherry picking.
And I see you have yet to provoid an anternative methodology for looking at the Star Wars universe.
Please.
At least using the ICS has solid science behind it.
That's where we start talking about faith. Your info is disguised as science, and sugar coated with science terms, but greatly disregards plenty of sources, from the films to a large scope of the EU.
You actually invent your own canon, which scores as a nice oriny in my book.
That's creationism, and it's damn hypocrite from the Wongies and Saxtonians to wrap themselves in a half assed white shroud of pseudo science to defend their wank.
And discarding prior canon where it conflicts with higher canon makes sense rather than just including flawed material because everything is valid is somehow a better way of looking at things.
ICS is not higher canon. What the ICS adds that is not directly coming from the film is just more EU at equal levels with novels, comic books, other guides and video games. You should know this fairly well.
The main difference here is that Lando suggested the knife range fight to increase the rebels' chances of survival.
The point being to merge with the imperial fleet and use their ships as shields to forbid the DS from getting a lock on them.
And they still would have lost if it weren't for luck. Ackbar suggested a far more sensible strategy.
Yes, flee, and never have a chance to destroy both the Emperor and his machine of hell. That would have, for sure, made the Alliance's job far easier.
Sorry, but the film was rather clear. It was their best chance.
And yes, they had some sort of luck in the sense that it compensated for the trap nature of the plan, puppeted by Palpatine himself. But Palpatine didn't count on the natives and rebel sympathy, and that hit him right back in the balls.
And of course given the reins of the Alliance's snubfighter squadrons against pilots who've been fighting for years. Sure. Lando clearly got help from Solo there, but no matter the hand, if he wasn't up to the necessary requirements as a leader, the Alliance would have simply not put him in charge.
The thing is the Alliance has a history of pputting amateurs in the thick of things, Solo, Lando, Luke.
Solo and Lando share the same background, and Luke was the best pilot over there, and was NOT in command of the squadron attacking the first Death Star.
After that, I think he had plenty of time to catch up with the basics and show his superior skills in piloting. Plus it clearly boosted the rebels' moral, and that also matters a lot to have a leading figure that everybody appreciates and respects.
And then, when you realize that he's a Jedi, then you remember the good ol'times of Jedi leading armies against the enemy, and you believe that you have more than a combo. You have a savior.
Sure. I mean, he's a smuggler who probably survived for years against all sorts of imperial patrols, bounty hunters and pirates in space. He's been shown having his own private army as an administrator, he's a fine gunman. He's the one coming with the good ideas during the battle, and that makes him an amateur.
That's very desperate from you.
By all means demonstrate how any of that qualifies one to become a General.
Rather you defend your claim and show me how this makes him an amateur. The Alliance needed qualified people with enough charisma and cunning who could think out of the box.
Lando has desmontrated all of this, and has proved a damn fine sense of strategy.
Now, this point has been hammered by several people here, simply because your claim is just far fetched.
I think this is just insane. You post a link to an EU event where Lando actually shows a definitive proof of well planned plan and strategy to take out a large part of an enemy fleet with his own ship, and then join the local force to finish it, and you say it doesn't prove anything.
That's exactly the kind of intelligence a cunning general should display, but I guess that as long as it doesn't not involve capital ships, it's not good enough for you.
Sure.
My point is that he is ignorant of the capabilities of his fighters when compared to capital ships.
And you have desmontrated this... when?
Tricks are nothing more than one shot tactics for most of them, that sometimes can be reused. I think Thrawn did use a couple of tricks, like cloaking fighters in a cargo ship at Sluis Van, or using cloaked asteroids and a cloaked armed ship under Coruscant shields.
Oh, I see, Thrawn is T3H general with the white costume and the big fat warships, and he babbles crap about art and warfare, like Sun Tzu meets Picasso, so that makes his tricks valid.
:rolleyes:
I have never expressed my opinion on Thrawn one way or the other so your just throwing out red herrings.
Oh no. I'm actually showing the double standard behind your claim. I'm actually pointing to a very respected EU war general, probably one of the best if you really want to have a handjob right now, and I have shown that most of his brillant moves were all tricks.
You know, things that defines people as amateurs, as per your definition.
Ah, I also forgot the use of moles to pierce the armor of the rebel ships stuck in the drydocks. Another trick you know.
Shadows of the Empire.
I'm afraid I'm not familiar with that one.
... that's surprising, to say the least. That's probably one of the most well known EU books ever, along Zahn's boring and phoney trilogies.
SotE is a nice EU book about Luke, Han, Leia, Lando and the rest of the band, between TESB and ROTJ, finely showing that Han, Lando and co were not stuck in Jabba's palace for the duration you claimed.
In case you didn't watch the film, it was the best thing to do to buy Solo some precious time, when you had a battle station on your tail instagibbing your main ships.
Yeah and if the shield hadn't gone down it would have gotten them all killed.
That does not undermine that if they wanted to give Solo a chance, that was the best thing to do. And that's what they did.
Now, am I the only interested in The Phantom Menace's space battle or what??
There was nothing in that battle to indicate that fighters could take down capital ships save for Anakin getting extremely lucky.
On the contrary. But since I don't have the DVDs, that's why I pointed to two different scenes that would present a damn relevance to our whole discussion.
