Star Wars vs Star Trek shields

For polite and reasoned discussion of Star Wars and/or Star Trek.
Post Reply
Kor_Dahar_Master
Starship Captain
Posts: 1246
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: Star Wars vs Star Trek shields

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Tue May 17, 2011 5:39 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:You only have to understand that is that the shields were being powered by auxilary sources as a result of the Dyson Sphere tractor beams overloading the main power systems, leaving the ship in a severely damaged state. This is something that Wong does not adequately address, except to brush them off with pseudo-scientific sound BS crap like "oh well, the star must not have been normal output because the inner surface of the Dyson Sphere was not roasting at 100,000 million km". However, this does not take into account anything else as confounding variables, such as the extremely advanced nature of the Sphere itself, and how it might be providing protection to the surface, or the fact that we don't really get a good look at the inner surface of the Sphere since it is not important to anything. Sure we see what appear to be bodies of water... which would be incomprehensibly gigantic by any Earthly standard given that the surface area of the Dyson Sphere is worth hundreds of millions of planets! So even if the oceans boiling off, it would take a very long time to do so. Millions of years, in fact to get rid of that much water!

So, what it boils down to is that you have to realize that with the other aforementioned variables, any steady-state calculations are incredibly conservative.
-Mike
Well the fact that it is a literally enclosed sun guarantees that some sort of protection or energy collectors on a massive scale are in use, after all our magnetic field deflects most of the nasty crap the sun throws out so we do not cook and a enclosed shell cannot exactly do that.

Personally i would say that the civilisation would make the shell so the surface was as close as the collectors ect could easily manage while allowing comfort to the population as any larger is really rather pointless (OK a dyson shell is already pointless according to science due to the requirements exceeding the benifits but meh).

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5839
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Re: Star Wars vs Star Trek shields

Post by Mike DiCenso » Tue May 17, 2011 5:57 pm

The practicality of building such a thing as a Dyson sphere is a whole other issue in and of itself. Even a millimeter thick shell would require an enourmous amount of resources beyond anything imaginable, never mind the engineering issues, and the Dyson Sphere shown in the episode had a shell at least several hundred meters thick, and used neutronium in it's makeup!
-Mike

Kor_Dahar_Master
Starship Captain
Posts: 1246
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: Star Wars vs Star Trek shields

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Tue May 17, 2011 6:22 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:The practicality of building such a thing as a Dyson sphere is a whole other issue in and of itself. Even a millimeter thick shell would require an enourmous amount of resources beyond anything imaginable, never mind the engineering issues, and the Dyson Sphere shown in the episode had a shell at least several hundred meters thick, and used neutronium in it's makeup!
-Mike
Neutronium would be a good start IF it had a material str relative to its density in its supposed natural environment (A Neutron star) but had very little of the mass. Readily available energy for the structural integrity field would not really be much of a issue obviously.

I was reading that a dynamic option like the space fountain idea uses could help dealing with supporting the shell but as i am still way short of getting my noggin around the basic fountain idea il not even try to understand it for the shell yet.

Picard
Starship Captain
Posts: 1433
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: Star Wars vs Star Trek shields

Post by Picard » Fri May 20, 2011 3:20 pm

I know it might sound stupid, but...

maybe neutronium was taken from neutron stars, and then some neutrons were broken into photons and electrons, and everything was used to construct sphere, in combination with advanced gravitational technology?

User1619
Padawan
Posts: 48
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: Star Wars vs Star Trek shields

Post by User1619 » Fri May 20, 2011 6:52 pm

Picard wrote:I know it might sound stupid, but...

maybe neutronium was taken from neutron stars, and then some neutrons were broken into photons and electrons, and everything was used to construct sphere, in combination with advanced gravitational technology?
The Doomsday Machine was made of solid neutronium, and it wasn't nearly as well-contructed as the Dyson Sphere, apparently being crudely forged; I always assumed that was because neutronium isn't easy to work with.

As for claims by SDN'ers that the empire uses neutronium... well that's pure Mike Wank.

User1619
Padawan
Posts: 48
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: Star Wars vs Star Trek shields

Post by User1619 » Fri May 20, 2011 6:53 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:The practicality of building such a thing as a Dyson sphere is a whole other issue in and of itself. Even a millimeter thick shell would require an enourmous amount of resources beyond anything imaginable, never mind the engineering issues, and the Dyson Sphere shown in the episode had a shell at least several hundred meters thick, and used neutronium in it's makeup!
-Mike
Any indication on the diameter of the sphere?

Kor_Dahar_Master
Starship Captain
Posts: 1246
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: Star Wars vs Star Trek shields

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Fri May 20, 2011 6:56 pm

HeroHeeto wrote:
Mike DiCenso wrote:The practicality of building such a thing as a Dyson sphere is a whole other issue in and of itself. Even a millimeter thick shell would require an enourmous amount of resources beyond anything imaginable, never mind the engineering issues, and the Dyson Sphere shown in the episode had a shell at least several hundred meters thick, and used neutronium in it's makeup!
-Mike
Any indication on the diameter of the sphere?

Its inner edge was roughly 66% of earths orbit from the star i think so 200 milion km.

User1619
Padawan
Posts: 48
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: Star Wars vs Star Trek shields

Post by User1619 » Fri May 20, 2011 7:15 pm

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:
HeroHeeto wrote:
Mike DiCenso wrote:The practicality of building such a thing as a Dyson sphere is a whole other issue in and of itself. Even a millimeter thick shell would require an enourmous amount of resources beyond anything imaginable, never mind the engineering issues, and the Dyson Sphere shown in the episode had a shell at least several hundred meters thick, and used neutronium in it's makeup!
-Mike
Any indication on the diameter of the sphere?

Its inner edge was roughly 66% of earths orbit from the star i think.
That's over a quadrillion cubic kilometers of neutronium.

User avatar
Praeothmin
Jedi Master
Posts: 3920
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:24 pm
Location: Quebec City

Re: Star Wars vs Star Trek shields

Post by Praeothmin » Fri May 20, 2011 7:36 pm

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote: Its inner edge was roughly 66% of earths orbit from the star i think so 200 milion km.
Isn't the Earth at around 150 million km from the Sun?

User avatar
Praeothmin
Jedi Master
Posts: 3920
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:24 pm
Location: Quebec City

Re: Star Wars vs Star Trek shields

Post by Praeothmin » Fri May 20, 2011 7:37 pm

HeroHeeto wrote:well that's pure Mike Wank.
If you can't use his name correctly, then don't name him...

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5839
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Re: Star Wars vs Star Trek shields

Post by Mike DiCenso » Fri May 20, 2011 7:37 pm

Actually, as the dialog below shows, they were having a great deal of difficulty scanning the thing:

DATA: There are no stars or other stellar bodies listed on our navigational charts. However, sensors indicate the presence of an extremely strong gravitational source in this vicinity.

PICARD: Can you localise the source of the gravitational field?
(viewscreen shows a dark grey sphere)

RIKER: Sensors?

DATA: I am having difficulty scanning the object. It appears to be approximately two hundred million kilometres in diameter.

RIKER: That's nearly as large as the Earth's orbit around the sun.



Note Data's statement there. "It appears to be", not that the Dyson Sphere actually is 200 million km in diameter. It could be larger.

At any rate, this is very off-topic for the thread, so I'm asking that people bring this back on topic, or start a new thread on the Dyson Sphere. The only other way the Dyson Sphere relates to shield strength for Trek ships is in calculating the amount of kinetic energy the Jenolen's shields tanked while holding the space doors open for the E-D to escape.
-Mike

User1619
Padawan
Posts: 48
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: Star Wars vs Star Trek shields

Post by User1619 » Fri May 20, 2011 7:41 pm

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:
Mike DiCenso wrote:The practicality of building such a thing as a Dyson sphere is a whole other issue in and of itself. Even a millimeter thick shell would require an enourmous amount of resources beyond anything imaginable, never mind the engineering issues, and the Dyson Sphere shown in the episode had a shell at least several hundred meters thick, and used neutronium in it's makeup!
-Mike
Neutronium would be a good start IF it had a material str relative to its density in its supposed natural environment (A Neutron star) but had very little of the mass. Readily available energy for the structural integrity field would not really be much of a issue obviously.

I was reading that a dynamic option like the space fountain idea uses could help dealing with supporting the shell but as i am still way short of getting my noggin around the basic fountain idea il not even try to understand it for the shell yet.
The solar wind would be trapped and create a general pressure of an ionized hydrogen atmosphere, so the frame would be more like a baloon than a shell, and so would be supported by the pressure of the atmosphere against the star itself.
Last edited by User1619 on Fri May 20, 2011 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5839
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Re: Star Wars vs Star Trek shields

Post by Mike DiCenso » Fri May 20, 2011 7:42 pm

Praeothmin wrote:
Kor_Dahar_Master wrote: Its inner edge was roughly 66% of earths orbit from the star i think so 200 milion km.
Isn't the Earth at around 150 million km from the Sun?
The diameter of the Earth's orbit around the sun is just shy of 300 million km.
-Mike

User1619
Padawan
Posts: 48
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: Star Wars vs Star Trek shields

Post by User1619 » Fri May 20, 2011 7:44 pm

Praeothmin wrote:
HeroHeeto wrote:well that's pure Mike Wank.
If you can't use his name correctly, then don't name him...
Obviously the shoe fits if you know who I'm talking about.

Admiral Breetai
Starship Captain
Posts: 1813
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: Star Wars vs Star Trek shields

Post by Admiral Breetai » Fri May 20, 2011 8:59 pm

this is becoming a joke...

Post Reply