A challenge to Trekkies

[Khas]

Um, no. Look at Naboo and Corellia, which are typical SW worlds. Corellia was a founding member of the Old Republic, and it's population is less than half of Earth's. Naboo's population is three quarters that of Earth's. Ecumenopoli worlds are the exception, not the rule.

And even on the few that are, the only truly impressive one was Coruscant. Nar Shaddaa is smaller than Mercury, and Taris still had oceans.

And you have to consider the fact that the authors would have a real-world audience in mind, and would be talking about a real-world small town.

[Lucky]

It's nice to see you haven't left. I'm still waiting for a reply to my post from Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:41 am.

ROTS hull breech: since when were they using HTLs when Jedi and the chancellor were on it? Since when would they use it when they're practically right next to it and it's in atmosphere?

They use heavy Turbolasers all the time in atmosphere in SW:TCW, and they often use light, medium, and heavy guns as if there is no difference most of the time.

Here is a site that you can watch SW:TCW on since you seem to not be familiar with the series.
http://www.mastertoons.com/Star-Wars-Th ... -Wars.html

The ROTS novel also states that a turbolaser can vaporize a small town; a STAR WARS small town would probably be larger than New York City given the huge population disparity and the enormous size of most Star Wars cities.

Large cities are the exception, and not the rule.

If you want to see how small a small town in Star wars might be watch Jedi crash/defenders of the peace. You have a bunch of grass huts surrounded by a wall.

TWC: still nobody has made a blatant contradiction, nor have they specified the size of that asteroid field

It's a planetary ring system that is barely big enough to stick the ships in.

Check my post from Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:41 am that I am waiting for you to reply to. You will find some of those contradiction you want.

[Mike DiCenso]

TWC: still nobody has made a blatant contradiction, nor have they specified the size of that asteroid field

People have been finding blatant contradictions left and right, yet you seem intent on ignoring them. The density of the asteroid field in "Downfall of a Droid" as well as the implications of what happens can be found in great detail in RSA's notes and images available on this page here. More can be found here on his Star Wars weapons range page for DFoaD. Note that the asteroid field is not particularly dense, yet Grevious and his droids were highly concerned about impacts with the asteroids, that all power for the shields was diverted up front. When we see an asteroid collide in the Mastertoons video that was linked to by Lucky in his post, you can see that the asteroid is not even 70 meters long, and impacts the Seperatist ship at only at most 100 meters a second relative velocity.

Since we can scale the asteroids in size to the Munificents, we can determine their approximate volume and mass. A 70 meter asteroid would require "only" 1.3 to 2.6 megatons to vaporize. This is ridiculously well within the range of ICS-level weapons, even point-defense TLs, which should be able to easily shatter such asteroids into tiny fragments with a single shot. A 200 gigaton heavy quad TL should have little trouble with such asteroids, especially given the secondary effects as a single beam dispersing it's energy upon impact with one asteroid would rapidly expand outwards to destroy others. Punching hole through that field would have been easy as pie. The fact that neither Anakin, nor Grievious shot up the rocks shows that destroying the asteroids was not an option to either of them, and likely because their ships were not capable of doing so.

The other points have been addressed. Cities on Earth, in Real Life, like New York, Mexico City, Moscow, and so on are the exception, not the rule, and a "small town" is still only a few thousand, to maybe a few tens of thousands of people anywhere you go. In Star Wars, Courscant is the exception, not the rule. The TPM novelization even makes a point of it. Every other planet we see our heroes goes to, demonstrates that over and over again. Further, the RoTS novelization is written for the benefit of the We, the real-life reader. And given that there is little difference in SW and RL for what a small town looks like in size, I'd say that the points still stand.
-Mike

[Who is like God arbour]

ROTS hull breech: since when were they using HTLs when Jedi and the chancellor were on it? Since when would they use it when they're practically right next to it and it's in atmosphere?

1. Don't move the goal posts. You were speaking only of turbo lasers:

   • Since when were turbolasers EVER unable to destroy something that was unshielded in the movies? In the movies we never see them fail to destroy an unshielded object.

2. It may be stupid of them to shoot with their heaviest weapons on the IH as long as their own chancellor is onboard. But according to the novelization they have shot on the IH with turbo lasers. That's a fact that you can not contest.
3. Even in the movie they show a Venator firing its heavy turbo lasers on the IH although the chancellor was still on board. That may be stupid but that's a fact that you can not contest.
4. An explanation that would allow them to not be stupid could be that they thought the chancellor is already dead. Or maybe they thought that it is more important to destroy the IH and kill Gen. Grievous and end the war than to rescue the chancellor who could be re-elected. After all, it is not the person that is important but the office.

[Praeothmin]

Sorry, I've been busy.

ROTS hull breech: since when were they using HTLs when Jedi and the chancellor were on it? Since when would they use it when they're practically right next to it and it's in atmosphere? The ROTS novel also states that a turbolaser can vaporize a small town; a STAR WARS small town would probably be larger than New York City given the huge population disparity and the enormous size of most Star Wars cities.

There are two ships firing broadsides at each other in RotS, just before Anakin and Obi-Wan reach Grievious's ship, and they are indeed firing with their dorsal guns, i.e., the HTLs...

TWC: still nobody has made a blatant contradiction, nor have they specified the size of that asteroid field

And you still haven't adressed the issue of walkers destroying Capital ships with sub-KT weapons in that exact asteroid field... :)

[Picard]

Calculating yield of Republic heavy walker (SPHAT walker in EU) main gun could help... since we see these guns destroying Separatist Munificients in Battle of Coruscant.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Sorry if this is a bit rushed.

I don't think I missed anything, but if I did please point it out.

Since when is the ICS only referring to the Acclamators in the movies? That wasn't specified, and making a technicality out of its name doesn't work. The movie acclamators were early ones that were seeing combat for the first time. They clearly weren't equipped with turbolasers at the time.

The ICS have always stated they are talking about what is in the movies, but most people like yourself do not read the covers very closely.

The 200 Gigaton Quad Turbolasers comes from the Episode 2 ICS.

THE DEFINITIVE GUIDE TO THE CRAFT OF STAR WARS: EPISODE I

THE DEFINITIVE GUIDE TO THE CRAFT FROM STAR WARS EPISODE II

THE DEFINITIVE GUIDE TO SPACESHIPS AND VEHICLES

THE SPACECRAFT AND VEHICLES OF THE ENTIRE STAR WARS SAGA

The Episode 1 and 2 ICS clearly state they are talking about the ships and vehicle seen in the movies.

The episode 3 ICS is not as blunt, but why call it the "REVENGE OF THE SITH INCREDIBLE CROSS-SECTIONS" if it as well was not intended to depict what was shown in the movies

The CCS is just all the ICS bound in one book as I recall. We can reasonably assume by Saga it means the six movies.

It's quite obvious that Saxton was also referring to said ships in general and not just how they were portrayed in the movies, as shown since the ICS mentions BDZ, which wasn't shown in the movies but is confirmed by many EU sources. Nitpicking a technicality about the movie title doesn't change that.

Where in the ICS does it say anything about durasteel strength? It doesn't, iirc.

Check page 22 of the Episode 2 ICS.

The ICS give firepower ratings, and since the ships can take at least a couple hit when their shields go down the armor must be able to withstand the the camera shy gigatons at least just barely logically speaking.

Actually, in ROTJ a star destroyer is one shotted after its shields fall, showing that turbolasers can one shot ships. This is confirmed in EU sources in which star destroyers often gets destroyed quickly enough that even Force users can only predict them a few seconds in advance, showing that turbolasers are powerful enough to one shot ships without much time passing.

Details?

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Proton_cannon
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:Acc ... Ryloth.jpg

Details?

The Republic forces lead by Mace Windo are traveling along a narrow path/road that their AT-ETs must travel in single file. The CIS hover tanks are on the other side of the gorge shooting at Mace's forces. The CIS could have destroyed Mace and his forces if they had used more then hand grenade level fire power.

The standard tactic in the real world is to disable the vehicle at the front of the caravan, and the rear.

I didn't claim that CIS hover tanks had kiloton level firepower.

1. They were trying to rescue the Jedi

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Second_B ... f_Geonosis

The Shield isn't up until well into the battle.

Iirc Mace Windu commented that it might have been a mistake to not bombard the planet from orbit...oh, but it's the second battle.

Even in the movies as you assumed I meant, there was easily room for the clones to use more fire power then they did.

Like what? The clones showed impressive firepower, as well as the ability to fight while in thick dust that probably also had toxic chemicals.

2. Didn't Mace Windu comment that he should have done that?

I don't recall Mace being at the second battle.

The second battle? Oh, actually based on pictures from the Wookieepedia article on it a Star Wars tank showed impressive, MOAB level firepower.

3. As you posted, there was a theater shield. Blasting the area around the shield would be blasting nothing other than terrain, because logically the droid army would be inside the shield.

A gigaton blast will cause the earth to shake, and do other not nice thing to things nearby, and the shield was not up until late in the battle.

Proof that a gigaton level blast would cause the Earth to shake by any significant amount?

And modern infantry often times use bushes as "cover"; does that mean that a bullet can't go through a bunch of leaves?

Bushes only provide protection if the guy trying to kill you can't see you. The Republic knew exactly where the CIS ships were at all time, and the CIS knew exactly where the Republic ships were.

To make matters worse the CIS ships were taken down by AT-ETs.

Asteroids can still cause turbolasers to go off prematurely, sparing the other side. Also, where's your source for AT-ETs taking out ships?

Maybe the fact that Star Wars consists of 12 million inhabited worlds, hyperdrive systems that allow for casual galactic trade, and the abililty to build the Death Star 2 to 60% completion in 6 months?

And how many of those planets can survive without importing the bare necessities? It's a plot point of several episodes that planets that aren't overpopulated need to import just about everything. It's really stupid in some cases, but canon.

When? Logically an established planet would be self sufficient, and if needed other planets could import in supplies; it's not like the Federation's going to be able to blockade Star Wars planets, not when their warp drive is too slow to even reach it.

How many of those planets are anything more then stone age peoples living in grass huts?

Given that the 12 million figure were those that were related to major Star Wars civilization (in that era the Empire) they almost certainly would have trade with the rest of the galaxy, and technological diffusion happens pretty quickly.

How many of those planets are people who can barely feed themselves, and have very little industry? Ryloth, a major home world fits this description.

About 1 million of those planets are likely self sufficient ones, which is more than enough given that Coruscant alone likely outproduces the entire Federation combined.

How much of a strain was put on the GFFA's economy by building the Death Stars?

Even if it took their entire GDP, that would still be an extremely impressive feat of engineering.

How many star destroyers could have been made out of one death star? Keep in mind that star destroyers are more then just steel hulls. You can't know because the Death Stars had only one unique reactor, and unique propulsion systems, and what the Death Stars have in common with Star Destroyers the death Star will only have maybe only a few of excluding turbolasers.

That's actually an interesting question; how many star destroyers could Star Wars produce given full military mobilization? The CIS, which was relatively small, had about 1 million (or was it a billion?) transport ships of impressive size?

Where did the steel to make the death stars come from?

Some mining companies in Star Wars actually mined billions of planets. Given hyperdrive's impressive speed and the huge amount of planets Star Wars has, getting durasteel is among the least of their problems.

Vs 1000 member worlds and warp drives too slow to allow for casual galactic trade.

You are misquoting Kirk. He was talking about human held worlds as I recall. By Picard's time there are 150 members of the UFP, and each of them would likely have more then one planet under their control, and humans/Earth would hold more then a 1000 worlds and growing.

1000 worlds is still very minuscule compared to over a million worlds. That's an enormous difference that would be difficult to overcome in a conventional war.

The 3 million clone trooper figure is clearly bullshit, because it simply isn't possible. Fighting a galactic war with 3 million troops is laughable.

Or the big bad clone war wasn't as big and bad as it is made out to be. A single planet produced most of the Republic's troops, and those troops are the clones. While I agree 3,000,000 seems way to small there are only 10,000 generals/Jedi to lead them, and at later dates they are using clones Boba Fett's apparent age to man ships. Star Wars often has surprisingly small numbers in it. Darkstar actually has a page on it loaded with quotes.

http://st-v-sw.net/STSWordersofmagnitude.html

Given that battle droids have numbers ranging from trillions to literally quintillions, the Clone Wars were indeed far larger than most.

The Yuuzhang Vong war inflicted over 300 trillion casualties. That would have exterminated the Federation over 300 times over.

No, even without hyperlanes hyperdrive is still many orders of magnitude faster than warp drive, giving Star Wars a MASSIVE logistical and mobility advantage.

Yet the Malevolence was out ran by Y-wings using only their slower then light drives. While a hyper-drive is always a faster then light drive system it can take longer or about the same amount of time to get somewhere as a slower then light drive because of limitations of the technology. In practice a hyper-drive can be slower then light speed even if you are still moving faster then light. Watch the Destroy the Malevolence trilogy.

What? Are you seriously suggesting that hyperdrive is slower than STL travel when even darkstar's low end claims put them at thousands of C, with more medium end claims being hundreds of thousands to millions of C?

Without hyper-lanes hyper-drives can be for all practical purposes slower then light drives, and there are other dangers of not having mapped hyper-lanes that can destroy your ship, and kill you.

Then explain how Obi Wan found Kamino, which wasn't in any hyperlane, while using hyperdrive if it's supposedly STL.

Yeah, the Federation has these cool treknologies that would help them a lot if the mass produced them and actually used them...too bad that they never do.

There is no known reason they could not if they wanted to, and seem to in the future as I recall

But the Federation doesn't use most of their fancy tech more than once. They're either morons or there's some technical limitation to making them.

That's making the false assumption that a Federation ship could even damage a star destroyer.

Why couldn't a UFP ship take on a star destroyer?

Perhaps because said star destroyers can take gigatons/teratons of tnt?

False, as official/canon sources show that Star Wars helmets have exstensive HUD displays.

And G-canon says that Stoom Trooper helmets are hard to see out of, and makes no mention of a hud. You're going to need to provide proof of this HUD.

Star Wars Helmets seem to provide little in the way of protection

Multiple EU sources show stormtroopers having HUDs. Wookieepedia search it. The G canon does not have to confirm EU; EU sources are canon as long as they aren't CONTRADICTED by G canon.

Except that the UFP's warp drive is too slow to ever get to some of the further away hyperlanes, wouldn't know how to find a hyperlane and wouldn't have the manpower or firepower to maintain control of them.

How fast do you think warp is?

A few thousand C? Star Wars hyperdrive is millions of C.

Why wouldn't the UFP be able to get a hyper-drive, have someone tell them how to use it, what it's limitations are, and give them maps of well known hyper-lanes? This isn't top secret stuff.

So you're conceding that the UFP would have to copy Star Wars tech in order to stand a chance against them?

Even if they can capture some random Star Wars vessel and reverse engineer it, they'd still need to have the industrial capability to produce hypermatter. Also, imperial star destroyer consume more energy in a single hyperspace jump than many nations do in their entire existence. Given the Federation's inferior power generation capabilities, it's doubtful that they could make hyperdrive work on bigger ships.

Even the fastest hyper-drive would not be able to get from one galaxy to another in any reasonable amount of time, and likely run out of fuel. The range of Star Wars ships seems to be in the tens of thousands to low hundred thousand light years.

What? You mean how Obi Wan easily travels to Kamino, which was in the outer rim?

Also, you still haven't explained how the UFP INVADES the Star Wars galaxy.

Clearly it would have to be some plot device like a wormhole. I seem to recall the UFP studying them, and wanting to use them as a form of FTL travel.

Even with a plot device wormhole the UFP would still need to somehow get to Star Wars planets, get past their planetary shields can defeat the vastly more powerful and numerous Star Wars ground troops. Then, they'd need to hold the planets from attack.

Uh, what? Proof?

Proof of what?

It is canon the UFP is very good at modifying their tech to meet their needs.

Or that there are weapons in Star Wars that ignore shields and easily go through armor?

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... sc&start=0

You'd still need to prove that the Federation can reverse engineer Star Wars tech or concede your point.

Right...because the Federation clearly actually mass produced them...oh, no, they didn't.

Given the fact things like black holes are just annoying to most trek ships, I doubt gravity weapons are normally much use in ship to ship combat, and most trek powers don't go around destroying stars and planets in times of war even though they could.

You want to claim the UFP can't easily make them the burden of proof is on you. I can prove the UFP can make them, that they outfit their ships with them, and that they should be able to take out a death Star.

Sorry but the level of wankage in this is disturbing. Are you seriously claiming that Federation ships can shrug off BLACK HOLES when Federation captains are reluctant to go within millions of KM of a neutron star, which BTW, a Star Wars civilian vessel went within 3000 km of without suffering any noticeable damage?

That's...wankage to the extreme.

The sun crusher can make a sun go nova. It was practically invulnerable to damage, even staying in a red giant for many years and not getting damaged iirc. Therefore, the sun crusher could blow up every Federation star system and the Federation can't do anything to stop it.

It doesn't matter how good the armor is. The pilot has to come out at some point. The Sun Crusher is only a fighter scale ship, and it's conventional weapons are just anti-fighter weapons.

The sun crusher could blow up a Federation star system, go back to a Star Wars base and THEN the pilot could get out.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Resonance_torpedo
According to Wookiepedia the torpedo is a chain reaction weapons, and only three were made. There isn't much reason a trek ship couldn't stop it. Sensor capabilities of Star Wars ships and planets is kind of sad.

How would Trek ships stop it? Do you have proof?

A changeling tried just what the Sun Crush was designed to do, and it was stopped.

...what?

Centerpoint station can not only tow stars and such, it can DESTROY them too from ACROSS THE GALAXY. Therefore, centerpoint station could casually blow up every Federation planet while a Federation task force would have to find Centerpoint station and then spend decades trying to get to it.

Provide quotes proving the needed range, and explain how they users of Centerpoint station will know where to target.

In LOTF: Fury, centerpoint station fired at a Galactic Alliance fleet while in the Corellian star system; the fleet was in a point midway between Coruscant and Corellia, aka a lot of space. Then, the commanders of Centerpoint Station were seriously considering blowing up Coruscant from there.

[Picard]

It's quite obvious that Saxton was also referring to said ships in general and not just how they were portrayed in the movies, as shown since the ICS mentions BDZ, which wasn't shown in the movies but is confirmed by many EU sources. Nitpicking a technicality about the movie title doesn't change that.

Saxton was cherrypicking EU sources, while constantly ignoring canon.

Actually, in ROTJ a star destroyer is one shotted after its shields fall, showing that turbolasers can one shot ships. This is confirmed in EU sources in which star destroyers often gets destroyed quickly enough that even Force users can only predict them a few seconds in advance, showing that turbolasers are powerful enough to one shot ships without much time passing.

HTL in canon are several megatons per shot... not too much problem to one-shot ships, especially if you have help from ship's own reactor.

Proof that a gigaton level blast would cause the Earth to shake by any significant amount?

Not "Earth" as planet, but "earth" as "ground".

When? Logically an established planet would be self sufficient, and if needed other planets could import in supplies; it's not like the Federation's going to be able to blockade Star Wars planets, not when their warp drive is too slow to even reach it.

Nope.
http://picard578.blogspot.com/2010/11/s ... -size.html
http://picard578.blogspot.com/2010/08/f ... drive.html

That's actually an interesting question; how many star destroyers could Star Wars produce given full military mobilization? The CIS, which was relatively small, had about 1 million (or was it a billion?) transport ships of impressive size?

Yet even EU Empire had 25 000 ISD's.
Plus:
http://picard578.blogspot.com/2010/08/s ... ished.html

1000 worlds is still very minuscule compared to over a million worlds. That's an enormous difference that would be difficult to overcome in a conventional war.

http://picard578.blogspot.com/2010/08/t ... ished.html

What? Are you seriously suggesting that hyperdrive is slower than STL travel when even darkstar's low end claims put them at thousands of C, with more medium end claims being hundreds of thousands to millions of C?

You did not understand what he meant.

Then explain how Obi Wan found Kamino, which wasn't in any hyperlane, while using hyperdrive if it's supposedly STL.

But the Federation doesn't use most of their fancy tech more than once. They're either morons or there's some technical limitation to making them.

Such as?

Perhaps because said star destroyers can take gigatons/teratons of tnt?

http://picard578.blogspot.com/2010/08/t ... power.html

Nope.

Multiple EU sources show stormtroopers having HUDs. Wookieepedia search it. The G canon does not have to confirm EU; EU sources are canon as long as they aren't CONTRADICTED by G canon.

Funny, Lucas said otherwise.
Plus:
http://picard578.blogspot.com/2010/08/canon.html

So you're conceding that the UFP would have to copy Star Wars tech in order to stand a chance against them?

Even if they can capture some random Star Wars vessel and reverse engineer it, they'd still need to have the industrial capability to produce hypermatter. Also, imperial star destroyer consume more energy in a single hyperspace jump than many nations do in their entire existence. Given the Federation's inferior power generation capabilities, it's doubtful that they could make hyperdrive work on bigger ships.

We know from G canon that SW ships are fusion-powered. ST ships are antimatter-powered.

What? You mean how Obi Wan easily travels to Kamino, which was in the outer rim?

In galaxy far smaller than Milky Way.

Even with a plot device wormhole the UFP would still need to somehow get to Star Wars planets, get past their planetary shields can defeat the vastly more powerful and numerous Star Wars ground troops. Then, they'd need to hold the planets from attack.

There is no way SW planetary shields are going to be stronger than ST planetary shields, except if we disregard G canon.

...what?

DS9.

[Khas]

More specifically, the episode "By Inferno's Light", where Changeling Bashir takes a missile armed with trilithium, tekasite, and protomatter, and nearly causes Bajor's sun to go supernova.

[Mike DiCenso]

Actually that was a bomb loaded aboard a runabout that Changeling Bashir hijacked. But yeah, he came awful close to delivering it, and destroying Bajor's sun just the same. Only Kira and Dax figuring out what he was doing with the trilithium, protomatter, and tekasite saved the day when they warped in with the Defiant and tractored beamed the runabout.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Sorry but the level of wankage in this is disturbing. Are you seriously claiming that Federation ships can shrug off BLACK HOLES when Federation captains are reluctant to go within millions of KM of a neutron star, which BTW, a Star Wars civilian vessel went within 3000 km of without suffering any noticeable damage?

That's...wankage to the extreme.

Actually, that is canon, like it or not.

* In "Tomorrow is Yesterday" [TOS, season 1], the E-1701 pulls away from a black hole, and is flung back in time 300 years as a result.

* In "Evolution" [TNG, season 3], the E-D rather casually sits near a neutron star and a red giant star. When the nanites cause the ship to go out of control, the shields withstand a rather high-velocity slamming into the hot matter stream flowing between the two stars.

* In "Allegiance" [TNG, season 3], which you were refering to, the E-D is within 20 million km of a pulsar, not an ordinary neutron star. If you take a gander at this video here, you will see in the first minute and 18 seconds that the high-energy, concentrated emission beams of the pulsar are hitting the E-D every half second. That's impressive that the E-D can sit there for at least 15 minutes and take that.

* In "Parallax" [VOY, season 1], Voyager actually flies up to the event horizon of a black hole with no damage suffered.

* In "Scientific Method" [VOY, season 4], Voyager is flown between two binary pulsars in order to get rid of some unwanted aliens. How close? Watch again through the magic of YouTube here starting from 1:10 onward and see for yourself. The ship gets within 1 million km and then point blank range between the pulsars with only a modest amount of damage.

* In Star Trek 2009, the Narada and Spock's ship are able to survive going through a black hole, and travel back in time to the mid-23rd century as a result.

So no, he's not actually wanking what happened. That is what happens.
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

[quote="StarWarsStarTrek]showing that turbolasers are powerful enough to one shot ships without much time passing.[/quote]

Or it shows how weak ISDs truly are...

I didn't claim that CIS hover tanks had kiloton level firepower.

But they would have to, because they are used against AT-TEs, which can destroy Trade Federation Capital ships, which, according to the ICS, throw around GTs of Firepower from their guns...

Also, where's your source for AT-ETs taking out ships?

A TCW episode of the first season, the 6th, "Downfall of a Droid", sees the AT-TEs laying in ambush on asteroids and heavily damaging the Separatists ships...

which is more than enough given that Coruscant alone likely outproduces the entire Federation combined.

Which you will now prove using sources from SW books or shows?
You see, stating things is one thing, providing evidence is another...

They're either morons or there's some technical limitation to making them.

But since they would be facing other morons led by "Spiritual" leaders, the playing field would be even...

Perhaps because said star destroyers can take gigatons/teratons of tnt?

This is where your arguments falls apart.
You are using the ICS numbers to prove the ICS is valid, and it doesn't work that way, and even contradicts your original challenge, which was to find events or facts in the movies that disproved the ICS numbers.
No movie has shown GT weapons, or even MT weapons being used, apart from the DS.
If you think they did, then by all means, explain it.
Vaporizing asteroids from 8 to 40 meters wide only requires low KT to high KT, not even MT.
And that would be the hoghest showing for SW weapons in the movies...

EU sources are canon as long as they aren't CONTRADICTED by G canon.

Well then, their HUDs are crappy as hell, since Stormtroopers can't shoot straight, can' detect enemies who are hiding nearby, etc...
And the ICS Firepower figures are contradicted by the movie and TCW showings, so do you accept these numbers as false then?

A few thousand C? Star Wars hyperdrive is millions of C.

The main website here has a list of many instances where Warp is a few hundred thousands of c.
Where's your evidence it is slower?
And where's your evidence of these millions of c for SW?

Given the Federation's inferior power generation capabilities, it's doubtful that they could make hyperdrive work on bigger ships.

Care to provide evidence of this?

a Star Wars civilian vessel went within 3000 km of without suffering any noticeable damage?

Which one?
When?
Mike D provided some examples of ST ships surviving black holes, even Voyager was caught in the event horizon of one for some time without suffering too much, so ST ships can indeed do what Picard says, to a limit.
Care you back up your statement?

[Lucky]

Sorry if this is a bit rushed.

I find typing my replies up on a text editor works well because it lets me come back later. I realize we all have lives out side of the internet.

It's quite obvious that Saxton was also referring to said ships in general and not just how they were portrayed in the movies, as shown since the ICS mentions BDZ, which wasn't shown in the movies but is confirmed by many EU sources. Nitpicking a technicality about the movie title doesn't change that.

Then it means Saxton screwed up, and did not do what he was suppose to, and because of that his work is not even C-canon. The book says it is a guide to the movies, and not on something that might not exist anywhere in Star Wars.

If he had noted that the armed ship was a later variant that would have solved the conflict, but the book portrays the ship that is picture as the variant seen in episode two, and that makes it S level canon at best.

The real world reason for many of the mistakes is that they did not have the finished visual effects/movie to work from, and a deadline that was before the VFXs would be done.

Actually, in ROTJ a star destroyer is one shotted after its shields fall, showing that turbolasers can one shot ships. This is confirmed in EU sources in which star destroyers often gets destroyed quickly enough that even Force users can only predict them a few seconds in advance, showing that turbolasers are powerful enough to one shot ships without much time passing.

We don't know if the shields were up or down on that ship, and everything we see says that shot was what is known as a golden BB. The shot caused a chain reaction that destroyed the SD. It normally takes several shots to destroy a ship even with it's shields down.

Before shields go down they tend to let damage through, and that means a ship will already be damaged and possibly on it's last legs by the time the shield is dropped.

None of the above supports or counters the claims in the ICS.

I didn't claim that CIS hover tanks had kiloton level firepower.

If a fighter like Slave-I, or the vehicles the clones use can have kiloton level fire power then it only makes sense that their enemies who think nothing of their troops well being would be more likely to use such fire power.

If Mace's troops had fire power anywhere near what the ICS claims they do then his men could have fired a single shot, and destroyed the droids shooting at them.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:Acc ... Ryloth.jpg
The picture at the address above shows Acclamators being shot down, and those black puffs of smoke are missed shots that explode as flack bursts if they miss. We can tell just from that picture we are not dealing with ICS level fire power.

I do suggest you watch the episodes of Star Wars: The Clone War I gave you the link to.

Iirc Mace Windu commented that it might have been a mistake to not bombard the planet from orbit...oh, but it's the second battle.

You can watch the episode at the site I linked to.

If you want to destroy factories fast putting troops on the ground miles away knowing the enemy has defenses ready and capable of stopping them is not a good way to do it fast.

Like what? The clones showed impressive firepower, as well as the ability to fight while in thick dust that probably also had toxic chemicals.

The droids were more then far enough away from the clones and very close together that a few hundred pound bombs would have saved a lot of clone lives, but in the movie we get the helicopter analog just shooting missiles/rockets that only take out one or two droids at a time. A few kilotons would have saved clone lives.

The second battle? Oh, actually based on pictures from the Wookieepedia article on it a Star Wars tank showed impressive, MOAB level firepower.

Could you provide a link to the page?

Wookiepedia is not the most reliable source of information. It tends to be useful for very general information, but gets major things wrong like the Base Delta Zero page. Last I checked it had a Victory SD possibly shooting at a asteroid, and claiming that that was a BDZ. >_<

Proof that a gigaton level blast would cause the Earth to shake by any significant amount?

I'm not the best person to answer this so if I get something wrong someone feel free to correct me.

First keep in mind that blaster, laser, and turbolaser blots tend to explode on impact, or shortly after tunneling a very short way into the target

The energy from the turbolaser being released into the ground as result it will cause the ground to shake. The blast will move through the ground as it does through the air. They can tell when someone is testing a nuke, where the nuke was tested, and how powerful it was.

A magnitude 9 earthquake is the equivalent of 475,063,712 tons of TNT exploding.

A gigaton is 1,000,000,000 tons of TNT

That means a 1 gigaton turbolaser will explode and release into the ground more energy then is released when there is a magnitude 9 earthquake.

Let's just say a single gigaton of TNT going off will make things nearby shake real good even if they are protected from anything above ground.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richter_ma ... magnitudes
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/learn/faq/?faqID=33

Asteroids can still cause turbolasers to go off prematurely, sparing the other side. Also, where's your source for AT-ETs taking out ships?

Down Fall of a droid as I recall.

As I recall an AT-ET's most powerful weapons are rated in the kiloton range, and the very much weaker anti-personal blasters were doing notable damage to the CIS ships that are suppose to be able to take a few gigatons to the naked hull.

I would suggest you watch Star Wars the Clone war on the link I provided. As far as I know it is legal.

When? Logically an established planet would be self sufficient, and if needed other planets could import in supplies; it's not like the Federation's going to be able to blockade Star Wars planets, not when their warp drive is too slow to even reach it.

While I agree that logically established planets should be self sufficient it is not always the case

Given that the 12 million figure were those that were related to major Star Wars civilization (in that era the Empire) they almost certainly would have trade with the rest of the galaxy, and technological diffusion happens pretty quickly.

I'm confused, 12 milloin of what? Are you talking about planets?
We know that there are planets that during the clone war were at a stone age tech level, but still knew what was going on off planet.

Controlling 12 million planets would just be a matter of sticking a prefabricated base on the rock.

About 1 million of those planets are likely self sufficient ones, which is more than enough given that Coruscant alone likely outproduces the entire Federation combined.

It is a plot point of several episode that many home worlds are not self sufficient even though they don't seem to be as populated as modern day Earth. It doesn't make sense to me, but it is canon.>_<

Coruscant is just one giant city. It realistically shouldn't be able to exist as I understand it, but that is a different topic. We see nothing that shows it can feed it's population, and there I see it needing to import everything save maybe water. If it exports something it is likely fertilizer.

Even if it took their entire GDP, that would still be an extremely impressive feat of engineering.

Something matched and possibly surpassed in the enterprise era by a group smaller then the UFP. The Star Trek universe is a scary place.
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Xindi_superweapon

It seems the ships are the sizes they are in trek because they are the size best fit for the job.

That's actually an interesting question; how many star destroyers could Star Wars produce given full military mobilization? The CIS, which was relatively small, had about 1 million (or was it a billion?) transport ships of impressive size?

What are the sources for those numbers?

Are you sure you are not mixing up the "neutral" Trade Federation with the CIS?

How long did it take to build all those ships?

Did you know the clone war was bankrupting the Republic?

Some mining companies in Star Wars actually mined billions of planets. Given hyperdrive's impressive speed and the huge amount of planets Star Wars has, getting durasteel is among the least of their problems.

The hyper-drive is actually limited to the hyper-lanes, or it slows down to the point of STL drives being as fast if not faster as seen in the Malevolence trilogy.

The Empire only control a small part of their galaxy.

What makes you think it wasn't all just recycled CIS stuff?

Durasteel is an alloy, and as I recall needs a rare metal call neutronium. The stuff isn't found just anywhere.

It's been a while since I read episode 4, but wasn't the Death Star made from simple steel?

1000 worlds is still very minuscule compared to over a million worlds. That's an enormous difference that would be difficult to overcome in a conventional war.

A thousand worlds for seemingly one member of the UFP during Kirk's time, and the number was still climbing for humans in the TGN/DS9/Voyager era.

In the TNG/DS9/Voyager era there are 150+ members of the UFP.

The UFP is very good at terraforming planets such as they did with Mars.

The numbers difference is not as big as you might think given the small size of the Star Wars galaxy, and the fact the Empire only takes up a small part of it.

Given that battle droids have numbers ranging from trillions to literally quintillions, the Clone Wars were indeed far larger than most.

Canon numbers are more like 100 battle droids to 1 clone trooper according to the Star Wars: the clone wars movie.

The Yuuzhang Vong war inflicted over 300 trillion casualties. That would have exterminated the Federation over 300 times over.

The Vong were only dangerous because of their Dovin basal defenses which are next to useless to a trek power who have very fine control over gravity to the point they find blacks to be mildly dangerous. I highly doubt Vong weapons could get through trek shields let alone the weak navigational deflector both of which are gravity based defenses.

Star Wars trek is not very good when it comes to gravity. It's mostly electromagnetic technology

What? Are you seriously suggesting that hyperdrive is slower than STL travel when even darkstar's low end claims put them at thousands of C, with more medium end claims being hundreds of thousands to millions of C?

The Malevolence was a fast ship, and it was not able to get to the place on the other side of a nebula faster then some Y-wings using Ion drives to go through the nebula. In practice a hyper-drive can be slower then a slower then light drive.

Note I said in practice. A hyper-drive will always be a faster then light drive system. It is only in narrow and specific areas that it can go at the speeds you are thinking of.

Do use that link I gave you, and watch the series

Then explain how Obi Wan found Kamino, which wasn't in any hyperlane, while using hyperdrive if it's supposedly STL.

Clearly there was a known rout to the place.

I never said a hyper-drive was a STL drive system. It will always let you move at faster then light speeds, but it will not always get you to where you want to go faster then light because of limitations of the system.

Do watch the series. It will answer many of your questions

But the Federation doesn't use most of their fancy tech more than once. They're either morons or there's some technical limitation to making them.

Could you please give some examples of what you mean?

Perhaps because said star destroyers can take gigatons/teratons of tnt?

First off some things can't be overcome with brute force such as trek shields. Laser are useless for example because photons are effected by gravity.

Secondly the asteroid taking off the bridge tower puts some nice upper limits on what a naked hull in Star wars can take. The numbers I've seen put it in the kiloton range. I would guess the hulls of a SD can take hits from blaster, lasers(the guns on things like X-wings) and turbolasers in the megaton range, and that their armor is ablative.

In down fall of a droid and all the in atmosphere fighting we have reason to think the clone War era ships are throwing around less then a megaton. Since Star Destroyers of the Imperial era are said to be much more powerful with their new solar ionisation reactors, I would guess megatons for weapons out put.

Multiple EU sources show stormtroopers having HUDs. Wookieepedia search it. The G canon does not have to confirm EU; EU sources are canon as long as they aren't CONTRADICTED by G canon.

Luke says he can't see a thing out of the helmet(or something to that effect), Clone troopers don't seem to have huds either, and I can't recall anyone have a HUD in Star wars when it comes to helmets. After a certain point lack of evidence is evidence of lack.

A few thousand C?

Please tell me you are not using Voyager as your source for warp speeds. Voyager was literally broken from episode one on.

Think about what the Enterprise actually does in the series and is shown to do.. A few thousand C does not make sense, and we are shown in episodes like "the chase" that they can go tens of hundreds of thousands of C.

Star Wars hyperdrive is millions of C.

And how do you get that speed?

So you're conceding that the UFP would have to copy Star Wars tech in order to stand a chance against them?

I'm asking if you think the Federation couldn't get common tech and information.

Even if they can capture some random Star Wars vessel and reverse engineer it, they'd still need to have the industrial capability to produce hypermatter.

Why would they need to capture a vessel? Ships are bought and sold to seemingly anyone with the money, anyone can be taught to fix one, and hyper-lane information is at worst a matter of paying a few credits.

Why would the UFP need this hyper-matter stuff? The Death Star ran on a fusion reactor, and Star Destroyers use Solar Ionization reactors (something that sounds like a fancy name for a fusion reactor).

Also, imperial star destroyer consume more energy in a single hyperspace jump than many nations do in their entire existence.

That looks like hyperbole like turn a planet to slag. It's also to vague to get any information from, and could run counter to other events.

Where does the quote come from, and what is the full context. It makes SDs sound like that are not very efficient.

Given the Federation's inferior power generation capabilities, it's doubtful that they could make hyperdrive work on bigger ships.

3 gigatons a second is not even a low end upper limit for the warp core.

Given that most ships in Star Wars are suppose to be drastically less powerful then Star Destroyers, I doubt the Feds would have a problem.

What? You mean how Obi Wan easily travels to Kamino, which was in the outer rim?

If you want to use the ICS's numbers you have to use all the numbers, and that means that the stupidly low ranges for the ships.

Acclamator: Range: 250,000 when fully fueled

Venator: Range: 60,000 effective range

Providence: Range: 40,000 effective range

Even with a plot device wormhole the UFP would still need to somehow get to Star Wars planets, get past their planetary shields can defeat the vastly more powerful and numerous Star Wars ground troops. Then, they'd need to hold the planets from attack.

If they can make the wormhole in the first place they can likely make one to go to a planet

Star Wars planets rarely have planetary shields. Even a rich and important planet like Alderaan did not have a shields.

A planetary shield in Star Wars is in truth just a theater shield covering a few kilometers. It would be child's play to just blow up a torpedo under the shield generator.

3,000,000 troops is able to fight a galaxy spanning war, and those were the the emperors best troop fighting the Ewkos, and Vader's troops in Ep 4 are not any better. Nothing in Star Wars says there are large, and competent armies.

Blasters are only better then muskets in the fact that they are not single shot weapons.

You'd still need to prove that the Federation can reverse engineer Star Wars tech or concede your point.

Given the UFP has never gotten their hands on any technologies from the Star Wars universe I can't prove it, but you can't prove the UFP can't for the same reason.

I can provide evidence that it is likely can reverse engineer Star Wars tech.

We know there are things that ignore, or easily drain star wars shields in Star wars.

We know at least one of those things is for sale on the black market.

We know you can buy shields in star wars, how they work is not really a secret, and that they have flaws.

We know the UFP was able to reversed engineered things they seemingly have never encountered before like for example phased polaron weapons in a short amount of time, and modify their existing tech to counter it. I'm sure there are even more off the wall silly examples.

Sorry but the level of wankage in this is disturbing. Are you seriously claiming that Federation ships can shrug off BLACK HOLES when Federation captains are reluctant to go within millions of KM of a neutron star, which BTW, a Star Wars civilian vessel went within 3000 km of without suffering any noticeable damage?

That's...wankage to the extreme.

It's not wank if it's done on screen.
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Black_hole
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Singularity
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Event_horizon
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Black_star

I think you are going to have to provide more information about the neutron star in question, and the state of the ship. Naming the episode it takes place in would be a good start.

Given Lando needed to make shield ships to protect even mighty Star destroyers from a mundane star I think you need to provide more information.

The sun crusher could blow up a Federation star system, go back to a Star Wars base and THEN the pilot could get out.

That assumes three things:

1) that the sun crusher is not N-canon. The end of Episode three brings into question the prototype death's existence.

2) that the sun crusher would not be spotted, and stopped. Why would the UFP not spot it, and stop it, or the torpedo?

3) that the sun crusher can even get to a trek system without hyper-lanes.

How would Trek ships stop it? Do you have proof?

Capture the tiny little sun crusher with a tractor beam, and shoot off it blasters, and shoot down it's torpedos if need be.

Trek powers can shoot torpedos down in their own universe, and their torpedos tend to move at high factions of C if not FTL.

...what?

A founder/changeling tried to destroy Bajor's star in a similar way you say the Sun Crush would work, but it was spotted, and stopped.

Look at the episode "By Inferno's Light".

In LOTF: Fury, centerpoint station fired at a Galactic Alliance fleet while in the Corellian star system; the fleet was in a point midway between Coruscant and Corellia, aka a lot of space. Then, the commanders of Centerpoint Station were seriously considering blowing up Coruscant from there.

That doesn't tell us the station has intergalactic range. It does not even tell us the station can target anywhere in the the Star Wars galaxy.

[Trinoya]

I do believe we may be overwhelming him a little bit. It's pretty obvious he doesn't have the posting time the rest of us have.

That said: STSW, might I suggest that you start a new thread, bow out of this one gracefully, and attempt to focus on one point at a time, rather than a large number of points. We all have a lot more experience and knowledge on this debate, resources, and what not, and I think you would benefit greatly from a more focused debate starting. It will also give you time to review the numerous sources we state since there is easily a few hours worth of evidence already presented in this thread alone.

I don't think anyone here will hold anything against you if you choose to bow out of this particular thread to create a more focused debate. I would suggest this in the other thread, but it seems to have become quite focused on galaxy size.


Just my two cents folks.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Ironically enough, most of his questions have already been separately addressed in their own respective threads. A good start would be for SWST to use the search function.