TCW CGI show and The State of the Debate

[Mike DiCenso]

I'm afraid capship turbolaser firepower is decidedly sub-kiloton. With gigajoule scale physical impacts being able to bring down shields and destroy ships as large as the Venator-class.

Well, in fairness, the turbolasers, at least as far as have been observed in the highest canon could be kiloton range (or equivalent to, if it operates on some kind of chain-reaction), maybe even low single-digit megaton based on the TESB asteroid popping scene. That an ISD Type-II could be far more powerful than an old Republic cruiser is possible, though it would be tough to argue for the orders of magnitude differences seen between TESB, and TCW. But otherwise, as I pointed out, if we went with TCW solely as our reference, then Star Trek utterly curbstomps the Empire in all but it's biggest ships and industrial output.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

So basically Kane is saying that since nuclear-scale atmospheric effects are not observed in some Trek incidents, we must dismiss all evidence where there actually is a lot of measurable energy involved - like "Sleeping Dogs". That runs pretty contrary to the rules that have been set up for versus debating.

There's still the more or less intended effect of Skin of Evil. Although I criticized its quality, there is no doubt that a single torpedo made a large explosion.

In addition, there are the torpedo and phaser explosions seen in TDiC as they hit the Founder's planet, and I found the early TNG episode "Code of Honor", where the E-D fires a series of torpedoes into the upper atmosphere of a planet and we see fairly visible explosions, though those are "inaccurate" compared to what we should see. Even still, one can make a mounting case for Trek firepower on that basis as compared to Wars.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

I'm afraid capship turbolaser firepower is decidedly sub-kiloton. With gigajoule scale physical impacts being able to bring down shields and destroy ships as large as the Venator-class.

Well, in fairness, the turbolasers, at least as far as have been observed in the highest canon could be kiloton range (or equivalent to, if it operates on some kind of chain-reaction), maybe even low single-digit megaton based on the TESB asteroid popping scene.

If we assume excess of energy, larger asteroids and perhaps denser composition, iirc.
That from cannons that could easily be medium TLs (contrary to popular SDN typical belief that they're PD guns).

In comparison, the main weapons of UFP ships, torpedoes, have shown to be far more potent against asteroids, lower end against lower end (same for the other side of the spectrum).

Now, it's also evident that the ISD's crew wouldn't waste more energy than needed to surely vape an asteroid of a given size.

Only the EU features megaton level explosions, including a large one seen from orbit (the one with PACHOOWW!! thing), but it also has cases of clear terajoule firepower, plus that piece from Slave ship, with turbolaser recoil systems capable of dealing with explosions in the giga-tonnage range.

That an ISD Type-II could be far more powerful than an old Republic cruiser is possible, though it would be tough to argue for the orders of magnitude differences seen between TESB, and TCW. But otherwise, as I pointed out, if we went with TCW solely as our reference, then Star Trek utterly curbstomps the Empire in all but it's biggest ships and industrial output.
-Mike

Yeah but TCW really is full of it when it decides to be retarded. The Senate that's underguarded (what? six guys tops?), clonetroopers who can't hit droids standing out in the open ten meters away (while we see faaaar better accuracy in ROTS alone), a shielded warship damaged by suicide vulture droids moving at toddler speed?
Or even AAT tanks that can't even break mere foliage (first episode with the Toydarian dude), or that C-9979 that's screwed up, size wise.

Sorry, but I'll pass, and I'm sure that many here will do the same very soon. TCWS is almost like the exact opposite of the cartoon Clone Wars.

As I said, dialogue is all that's really reliable, with visuals just giving a rough idea of what things look like.

In addition, there are the torpedo and phaser explosions seen in TDiC as they hit the Founder's planet, and I found the early TNG episode "Code of Honor", where the E-D fires a series of torpedoes into the upper atmosphere of a planet and we see fairly visible explosions, though those are "inaccurate" compared to what we should see. Even still, one can make a mounting case for Trek firepower on that basis as compared to Wars.
-Mike

There?

[Mike DiCenso]

Well, in fairness, the turbolasers, at least as far as have been observed in the highest canon could be kiloton range (or equivalent to, if it operates on some kind of chain-reaction), maybe even low single-digit megaton based on the TESB asteroid popping scene.

If we assume excess of energy, larger asteroids and perhaps denser composition, iirc.
That from cannons that could easily be medium TLs (contrary to popular SDN typical belief that they're PD guns).

In comparison, the main weapons of UFP ships, torpedoes, have shown to be far more potent against asteroids, lower end against lower end (same for the other side of the spectrum).

Well, yes. Remember I did do the calcs a while back on the Strek-vs-Swars along with others who worked out that the TL bolts' width constrain the diameter of the asteroids to about a few meters wide on their long axis. Here at SFJ, we also worked out the locations of some of the TLs, as you may recall, tracing that last one back to the ISD's trench notch where the model happens to have a heavy gun turret. With the other locations, you might be able to make a case one way or the other since the model only has holes, but few visible guns in that location that don't line up with the bolts starting locations anyway. Being fair and assuming soild elemental iron asteroids that are perfectly spherical you can get a few kilotons of firepower. However, the asteroids aren't perfect spheres, they're lumpy, and you can probably knock that down by a decent percentage.

Now, it's also evident that the ISD's crew wouldn't waste more energy than needed to surely vape an asteroid of a given size.

Possible, or it's possible they're using every amount possible to maintain margins of safety in ensuring they destroy the asteroids. It's also highly telling about their shields and armor that they even have to consider using their weapons to open a pathway through a group of asteroids of single digit meters size. I mean, what happened to those petaton dissipation rates?

Only the EU features megaton level explosions, including a large one seen from orbit (the one with PACHOOWW!! thing), but it also has cases of clear terajoule firepower, plus that piece from Slave ship, with turbolaser recoil systems capable of dealing with explosions in the giga-tonnage range.

That was seen from low orbit and even then the explosions weren't that impressive. At best single digit megaton range. But certainly nothing like the insane gigatons and petatons of firepower certain people claim we should be seeing.

That an ISD Type-II could be far more powerful than an old Republic cruiser is possible, though it would be tough to argue for the orders of magnitude differences seen between TESB, and TCW. But otherwise, as I pointed out, if we went with TCW solely as our reference, then Star Trek utterly curbstomps the Empire in all but it's biggest ships and industrial output.
-Mike

Yeah but TCW really is full of it when it decides to be retarded. The Senate that's underguarded (what? six guys tops?), clonetroopers who can't hit droids standing out in the open ten meters away (while we see faaaar better accuracy in ROTS alone), a shielded warship damaged by suicide vulture droids moving at toddler speed?
Or even AAT tanks that can't even break mere foliage (first episode with the Toydarian dude), or that C-9979 that's screwed up, size wise.

Sorry, but I'll pass, and I'm sure that many here will do the same very soon. TCWS is almost like the exact opposite of the cartoon Clone Wars.

As I said, dialogue is all that's really reliable, with visuals just giving a rough idea of what things look like.

Look, there are some outliers in TCW, but the entirety of the series cannot be discarded simply because we don't like it, and the series is showing us a remarkably consistant low-range, low-power SW firepower, and it's canon status overrides higher range and energetic examples from the EU. The only thing that can override TCW is the movies, which is why for fairness' sake I bring up the TESB scene. Because otherwise the debate flip-flops to where Trek has a clearly decisive firepower advantage, that while not quite as bad as the ICS-Trek one was, it still is pretty bad, and were it not for superior SW industrial might and hyperdrive, the debate would be over. The hypedrive advantage it looks like, though, could be nullified since it does require special lanes and navigational information to obtain the high speeds seen as it does for warp drive. As far as the first Clone Wars show goes, it was mostly Jedi Wank, not tech wank. In one episode the Seperatists actually wasted time and resources building a big stomping machine rather than just using nukes or orbital bombardment or hyper velocity KE.

In addition, there are the torpedo and phaser explosions seen in TDiC as they hit the Founder's planet, and I found the early TNG episode "Code of Honor", where the E-D fires a series of torpedoes into the upper atmosphere of a planet and we see fairly visible explosions, though those are "inaccurate" compared to what we should see. Even still, one can make a mounting case for Trek firepower on that basis as compared to Wars.
-Mike

There?

Yes, that's it. The dialog stated that the torpedoes were set to produce a "display blast" at 1,000 meters altitude, which would make their yield stupid powerful, though not quite even "Skin of Evil" much less TDiC range.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

Well, in fairness, the turbolasers, at least as far as have been observed in the highest canon could be kiloton range (or equivalent to, if it operates on some kind of chain-reaction), maybe even low single-digit megaton based on the TESB asteroid popping scene.

If we assume excess of energy, larger asteroids and perhaps denser composition, iirc.
That from cannons that could easily be medium TLs (contrary to popular SDN typical belief that they're PD guns).

In comparison, the main weapons of UFP ships, torpedoes, have shown to be far more potent against asteroids, lower end against lower end (same for the other side of the spectrum).

Well, yes. Remember I did do the calcs a while back on the Strek-vs-Swars along with others who worked out that the TL bolts' width constrain the diameter of the asteroids to about a few meters wide on their long axis. Here at SFJ, we also worked out the locations of some of the TLs, as you may recall, tracing that last one back to the ISD's trench notch where the model happens to have a heavy gun turret. With the other locations, you might be able to make a case one way or the other since the model only has holes, but few visible guns in that location that don't line up with the bolts starting locations anyway. Being fair and assuming soild elemental iron asteroids that are perfectly spherical you can get a few kilotons of firepower. However, the asteroids aren't perfect spheres, they're lumpy, and you can probably knock that down by a decent percentage.

Perhaps such a thread, about the ISD vaping asteroids, should be redone here, properly.

Now, it's also evident that the ISD's crew wouldn't waste more energy than needed to surely vape an asteroid of a given size.

Possible, or it's possible they're using every amount possible to maintain margins of safety in ensuring they destroy the asteroids. It's also highly telling about their shields and armor that they even have to consider using their weapons to open a pathway through a group of asteroids of single digit meters size. I mean, what happened to those petaton dissipation rates?

Yes, that's a thing; although this same ship's shields managed to vape an asteroid on contact, and the asteroid wasn't moving fast enough to be responsible of its vaporization.
If only a fraction of the shield surface wasn't responsible of that feat, then the whole shield could be a great many times worth that.

Only the EU features megaton level explosions, including a large one seen from orbit (the one with PACHOOWW!! thing), but it also has cases of clear terajoule firepower, plus that piece from Slave ship, with turbolaser recoil systems capable of dealing with explosions in the giga-tonnage range.

That was seen from low orbit and even then the explosions weren't that impressive. At best single digit megaton range. But certainly nothing like the insane gigatons and petatons of firepower certain people claim we should be seeing.

Actually, having put my elite skills at work, I managed to cobble these pieces of data, mix of the original comics scan, a shot of Suez Canal in Googul Urf (establishing the gap between two shores as 32 km wide) and our dear planet in high resolution, all in photoshp'z. Admire:

• • • • 

And then the cropped and zoomed window, which shows how the fireball is as wide as that 32 km wide gap in the Suez Canal, between Ain Sukhna (western shore) and Ras Sudar (eastern shore).
As talented people also happen to be lucky from time to time (^-^), that aperture happens to be three pixels wide, with the middle pixel being darker. The explosion is also three pixels wide, the middle pixel being lighter.
Basically, the fireball's width is at the very least a third of that aperture, 10.66 km. In the NWEC, that's more than 160 megatons for a ground contact fireball (requires less energy to spread sideways).
Considering that the explosion fades either sides, over both adjacent pixels, it could go up as 2/3 of the golf aperture, or 21.33 km wide. That's between 900~910 megatons.

Look, there are some outliers in TCW, but the entirety of the series cannot be discarded simply because we don't like it, and the series is showing us a remarkably consistant low-range, low-power SW firepower, and it's canon status overrides higher range and energetic examples from the EU. The only thing that can override TCW is the movies, which is why for fairness' sake I bring up the TESB scene. Because otherwise the debate flip-flops to where Trek has a clearly decisive firepower advantage, that while not quite as bad as the ICS-Trek one was, it still is pretty bad, and were it not for superior SW industrial might and hyperdrive, the debate would be over. The hypedrive advantage it looks like, though, could be nullified since it does require special lanes and navigational information to obtain the high speeds seen as it does for warp drive. As far as the first Clone Wars show goes, it was mostly Jedi Wank, not tech wank. In one episode the Seperatists actually wasted time and resources building a big stomping machine rather than just using nukes or orbital bombardment or hyper velocity KE.

The same CGI show has a Republican cruiser that both loses its left reactor during reentry, but hits the ground at a considerable speed and hard angle and suffers no damage.
It's the show that also has a Venator, in the first half of season 1, seen slowing down rather fast.

It is a kiddified retelling of history, a show wherein enemy generals behave like fools and sunday morning cartoon vilains, and where B1s are all of sudden very talkative and even more stupid than they already were.
A show for which we're supposed to think its authors watched the scene about the clonetroopers missing the B1s ten meters away and said yeah, that rocks? When ROTS has shown way better accuracy? When TESB had Rebel troopers firing in the icy distance with their carbines? With AT-ATs in the distance barely missing the snowspeeders? When the Millenium Falcon's small auto-sentry/defense blaster did a better job as a laying down supressing fire and killing several snowtroopers? With the Tuskens ace-shooting bolides flying at supersonic speeds, several hundreds of meters away, in TPM?

Or a supposedly fast ship can't even circle a nebula in hyperspace faster than small fighters flying at a molasse speed?

Admit it, you would react the same way if a Trek CGI show did nerf everything in the same way. You'd get ships unable to slag an entire city with a sustained bombardment, phasers missing 90% of the time, warp speeds being pulled down to stupid speeds such as a ship going through a Dyson sphere would reach the other side sooner than a similar ship circling it at warp 9.8, etc.

Only ranges and infantry scale or ground/air crafts firepower have been roughly in line with what we saw in the movies.

It's not a question of pulling down the comedy about Star Wars' teratons or so, since that's done at length, without the CGI show, as it solely relied on myth and wank.
Here, it's a question of making sense. An universe that is colonized at a Galactic scale by large starships which can enter or leave atmosphere without trouble (couple of kilotons just to move at a few gees), there are limits to how low-tech their power generation abilities can be.

It's just like if Luke Skywalker gave his nephews a CGI cartoon to watch, written in Basic, made by a certain Jiörg Wukaas, for the sake of both educating and entertaining them while he's having some business with Mrs. Jade.

Yes, that's it. The dialog stated that the torpedoes were set to produce a "display blast" at 1,000 meters altitude, which would make their yield stupid powerful, though not quite even "Skin of Evil" much less TDiC range.
-Mike

I don't really understand how a "display blast" would require a high yield whatsoever.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Two notes about the ISD's shot at that planet:

1. The bolt came at an angle that is out of sight of the heavy turbolasers imho.

2. The yellow spot could be the flash. I treated it as a fireball, but this is not a sure thing.

[Kane Starkiller]

Interesting thing is that even accepting that Empire is technologically inferior to Federation that would not be the end of the discussion, in fact it would open up in my opinion an even more interesting discussion.
Empire/Republic has roughly 1000:1 advantage in number of worlds (10^5-10^6)(150-1000) and some of it's planets have population likely rivaling the population of the entire Federation. So if the Empire can construct things like Death Star, SSD or ISDs with it's inferior technology through "brute force" what could it do with superior technology of the Alpha Quadrant?

Assuming that Imperial leadership has a modicum of intelligence they wouldn't attack a civilization that, presumably, has ships which outgun theirs 10:1 or more. Making deals with Ferengi, giving them rights to open business all over the Empire and it's million worlds in exchange for replicators, civilian grade teleporters etc. would be a much wiser course of action.
The Empire, under this scenario, would be China on steroids. Additionally having Romulan Empire play Russia to Empire's China for example and selling them their versions of S-300, Su-27 and Sovremeny destroyers.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Interesting thing is that even accepting that Empire is technologically inferior to Federation that would not be the end of the discussion, in fact it would open up in my opinion an even more interesting discussion.
Empire/Republic has roughly 1000:1 advantage in number of worlds (10^5-10^6)(150-1000) and some of it's planets have population likely rivaling the population of the entire Federation.

I would use the figure 600:1 myself for the "modern" Trek era - the 100,000 worlds that were part of the Old Republic roughly corresponding to the 150 members of the UFP, the million worlds of the Empire corresponding roughly to the extended holdings of those members.

So if the Empire can construct things like Death Star, SSD or ISDs with it's inferior technology through "brute force" what could it do with superior technology of the Alpha Quadrant?

Assuming that Imperial leadership has a modicum of intelligence they wouldn't attack a civilization that, presumably, has ships which outgun theirs 10:1 or more. Making deals with Ferengi, giving them rights to open business all over the Empire and it's million worlds in exchange for replicators, civilian grade teleporters etc. would be a much wiser course of action.
The Empire, under this scenario, would be China on steroids. Additionally having Romulan Empire play Russia to Empire's China for example and selling them their versions of S-300, Su-27 and Sovremeny destroyers.

In some ways, yes, but even when we consider, say, the situation of China and Britain in the 19th century, China's population was substantially less than a hundred times that of England. Only a few dozen times, in fact.

The question is which China is the Empire more like; the old imperial China struggling and failing to curb the influence of invasive mercantile types backed by superior military technology, or more like the PRC, which manages a remarkable amount of control over its own population and economy in spite of such influences, and does a much better job at acquiring new technologies?

[Kane Starkiller]

Old Imperial China was completely helpless against colonial invaders, at best they could repel them but Chinese navy was nonexistent and Britain was in no danger of retaliation. Then there were issues of transportation and communications which further made unifying China difficult.
Communications across Galactic Empire is nearly instantaneous, just like 21st century China, and it is relatively easy to travel from core worlds to the outer rim, again analogous to today's China.
But most importantly Empire can hit back at any aggressive powers, Ferengi won't be eager to mimic the policies of British Empire in 19th century when faced with the prospect of Ferenginar being blown up by Death Star.

[l33telboi]

Interesting thing is that even accepting that Empire is technologically inferior to Federation that would not be the end of the discussion, in fact it would open up in my opinion an even more interesting discussion...

More likely the Empire is going to see a mass exodus of people from its worlds to worlds in the Milky Way. Most likely entire worlds that are down on their luck are going to start allying themselves with factions from the Milky Way. The Empire did fine because people weren't really given the option of moving somewhere where they didn't encounter the omni-present Empire. And I'm not just talking about people leaving for the Federation either, there are plenty of places to go.

I doubt a government like the Empire could exist if there was suddenly a new galaxy out there, where the various personal freedoms hadn't been clamped down on. The rebel alliance alone would flourish with new trading partners and safe havens.

[2046]

Pardon the extended delay in getting to the rest.

Of course these are not the only examples of atmospheric battle. "Once more unto the breach" comes to mind. This one has it all: ultra low ranges requiring them to skim the building on the ground, lousy accuracy and zero kiloton level events.

Zero kiloton? What about the mushroom cloud visible at the start of the second attack, and perhaps visible past the fire at the last moments of the first?

Further, if you're going to make claims based on this, I'd love to hear more about how you want to deal with the inconsistencies of your view. For instance, you're apparently treating this like an Earth-normal atmosphere, yet you're ignoring the fact that two Klingon Birds of Prey moving at Mach 15 or so failed to so much as kick up any dust during their low-altitude surface-skimming pass of the ground base, and there's not even any obvious effect on the fireballs they created, unless it's so fast we can't see it strip most of the mass from the area.

So why should we treat this atmosphere like it's Earth-normal, when it surely is not?

In any case, this demonstrates the point I made about shields. You claim, ex nihilo, that shields are energy reflectors, yet we have evidence (including direct statements) that they are energy absorbers.

This also demonstrates the oddities of Trek beam weapons. A huge multi-kilometer ground installation has a massive starship-sized tower blown to high-velocity bits at close range, with little thermal effect or even any apparent Mach shockwave effect. Soon after, a 300m firing distance is used for the base attack when even in blast-free space photon torpedo detonations are a threat at ranges measured in kilometers.

You go make sense of that and come back to me when you have. Until then, don't make baseless claims.

I wonder what excuses you'll have lined up for that one.

Aren't you just the cutest little thing?

Regarding the Ep3 novelization small town reference:

It said vaporized the meaning of which is pretty clear: turn to vapor. Hiroshima was not vaporized, not even close. Need I remind you that Hiroshima Peace Memorial, which was 150m from ground zero, still stands.

None of that gives us any reason to assume a heat-caused phase-change vaporization by turbolaser is meant any more than a heat-caused phase-change vaporization of the later fighter by fighter blasters is meant.

As anyone knows, the term "vaporize" has meanings other than a phase change brought about by heat. Not only is there physical vaporization (e.g. a spray bottle), but for decades the term has been used to refer to nuclear weapons and other large explosive weapon destruction effects.

Just looking at a dictionary, one can see that this connotation is, in fact, a denotative meaning. Hell, note the example of a tank shell . . . tank shells do not vaporize tanks, or even come close.

Thus, if we take the term "vaporize" and take it "literally", we can in fact have a vaporization sans phase change or even disassembly into a particulate cloud.

That is, after all, the popular expression. Wasn't Hiroshima vaporized by that standard? Why yes, most people (even PBS) seem to suggest it was.

Sorry. No ultra-high-wanked lower-limit for you.

There is a 10m asteroid that gets vaporized as it impacts the shields of one of the ISDs in Empire Strikes Back. That's 4 kilotons imparted on the asteroid by shields.

Your calculation is backwards and based on false assumptions. The Docking Bay Asteroid did not strike the ship, and even if it had you would be stretching by swapping things around the way you do.

I asked for you to provide evidence of Wong/Saxtonian yields. You responded with a bunch of red herrings about Star Trek, including a false claim that only Trekkies have ever argued weapon ranges. And when I reply to that, you throw up a new smokescreen about equating you with a book? What the hell is that even supposed to mean?

I realize you're having profound difficulties, here, but can you get back on some semblance of topic?

Defending ICS was not my intention here merely exposing your groundless implication that by eliminating ICS the debate is over.

If Wong/Saxtonian yields are not present anywhere in the canon, they do not exist. My challenge to you was to show that such yields do exist. You have failed to meet this challenge.

If an Intrepid is forced to enter the atmosphere in pursuit of Equinox that obviously casts doubt on any incident where character claimed they were engaging ships at thousands of tens of thousands of km.

Voyager was not forced to do anything. Janeway ordered pursuit through the atmosphere. Her reasons are her own . . . as seen in the episode and expounded upon therein, her mental stability was in doubt at the time. You have no case here.

By the way, you should also drop the galaxy size red herring of yours, because you are making a fool of yourself. Not that this is unprecedented, mind you, but I'm just trying to be helpful here.

Too bad I'm right about the size and all you have are insults.

Cute, given standard Warsie tactics. In any case, however, the simple fact is that you are dead wrong. Multiple pieces of evidence in Star Wars all point to a Galactic Republic/Empire that does not constitute the whole of the galaxy, and the galaxy itself is not known to be larger than our own.

And as I've noted previously, astronomers use the average size of local galaxies as a benchmark when looking at faraway galaxies . . . thus my use of the local galaxies as a guide is not only proper, it was an inadvertent copying of the greats. A modest-sized galaxy with no other referents simply will not be the size you seek, no matter where in the universe you look.

Concede.

[Mr. Oragahn]

PEPCON blast...

The entire Iraqi army vaporized.

[Mr. Oragahn]

There is a 10m asteroid that gets vaporized as it impacts the shields of one of the ISDs in Empire Strikes Back. That's 4 kilotons imparted on the asteroid by shields.

Your calculation is backwards and based on false assumptions. The Docking Bay Asteroid did not strike the ship, and even if it had you would be stretching by swapping things around the way you do.

Nice page. I never looked at this one in details because I simply was fucking lazy, but there's always something that I pushed to the next day, in that I always wanted to know why we didn't see any shadow cast over the hull, considering that shields are hull hugging. Any asteroid striking such shields, considering the origin of light, would have cast a shadow somewhere close to the ventral ridge, between the reactor dome and the bay.

[Kane Starkiller]

There is a 10m asteroid that gets vaporized as it impacts the shields of one of the ISDs in Empire Strikes Back. That's 4 kilotons imparted on the asteroid by shields.

Your calculation is backwards and based on false assumptions. The Docking Bay Asteroid did not strike the ship, and even if it had you would be stretching by swapping things around the way you do.

LOL awesome stuff. Now I see why the delay in the reply, I bet you went over and over the scene frame by frame until you finally saw something you thought you can latch onto.
This is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about when I said that ICS is the least of the problems.
You don't analyze SW, you desperately search for a GOTCHA! moment around which you can construct long winded but ultimately incorrect claims.
You have no evidence that the flash begins on the bottom of the asteroid, in the second frame half of the asteroid is already glowing white-blue. What we do see is that the upper portion facing us still isn't vaporized. Considering that asteroid composition isn't necessarily perfectly homogenous some parts would be vaporized before others.
Naturally in your desperate attempt to find some excuse as to why we should dismiss yet another piece of evidence, you don't see the forest from the trees. The asteroid is moving towards the ISD at a certain rate and is then stopped cold. Something stopped it and that something would be the huge starship above it.
Now, don't get me wrong, I understand that you already invested way too much thought, time and energy into this to simply back down but if this is the caliber of argument you come up with I wouldn't expect that ultimate victory in SWvsST debate just yet.

[Mr. Oragahn]

There is a 10m asteroid that gets vaporized as it impacts the shields of one of the ISDs in Empire Strikes Back. That's 4 kilotons imparted on the asteroid by shields.

Your calculation is backwards and based on false assumptions. The Docking Bay Asteroid did not strike the ship, and even if it had you would be stretching by swapping things around the way you do.

LOL awesome stuff. Now I see why the delay in the reply, I bet you went over and over the scene frame by frame until you finally saw something you thought you can latch onto.
This is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about when I said that ICS is the least of the problems.
You don't analyze SW, you desperately search for a GOTCHA! moment around which you can construct long winded but ultimately incorrect claims.
You have no evidence that the flash begins on the bottom of the asteroid, in the second frame half of the asteroid is already glowing white-blue. What we do see is that the upper portion facing us still isn't vaporized. Considering that asteroid composition isn't necessarily perfectly homogenous some parts would be vaporized before others.
Naturally in your desperate attempt to find some excuse as to why we should dismiss yet another piece of evidence, you don't see the forest from the trees. The asteroid is moving towards the ISD at a certain rate and is then stopped cold. Something stopped it and that something would be the huge starship above it.
Now, don't get me wrong, I understand that you already invested way too much thought, time and energy into this to simply back down but if this is the caliber of argument you come up with I wouldn't expect that ultimate victory in SWvsST debate just yet.

What is desperate is talking nonsense to dodge the merest fact; that the part of the asteroid that would vaporize first would be the one that touches the shield, ergo the upper part.
On his pictures, the flash occurs on the lower part.
That said, asteroids don't vaporize magically, so it can be a TL that shot at it.

Now I didn't get into that event in details because I know it's dated effects and I'm rather sure that the intent was to show an asteroid hitting the ship and being vaporized.
Nowadays, shadows are automatically computer, but back then, it was a real hassle.