Federation territory

[Cocytus]

Does "Caretaker" really say "sustainable"?

Yes, it does. "Relativity" says top cruising speed. But "cruise" is really the operative term here. A cruise speed is the speed that optimizes engine performance, maximizing fuel efficiency and the distance one can travel before needing to refuel. It should also be the optimum tolerance of the engine components i.e. the speed they can go before the components' lifespans start to dramatically decline.

That's been my whole issue heretofore. Lieutenant Stadi is the ship's helmsman, so she should be intimitely familiar with its speed capabilities, as should Janeway, its captain. Warp 9.975 for an Intrepid class IS like 65 mph for your typical sedan. It strikes a balance between maintenance downtime and refueling downtime. For the damaged, not-up-to-spec Voyager, that speed was obviously much lower. An undamaged Intrepid (like the Bellerophon from "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges...see Mike Dicenso's earlier post) should perform much better.

[Mith]

Note that a race car CANNOT survive a typical race without multiple pit stops (i.e. needs maintenance each 2 km), whereas a regular car can go much greater distances before check (>2000 km).

But if the regular car always travelled at, or near, its top speed, like the race car does, it would definitly need more maintenance then once every 2000 km.

Even if Voyager is more akin to a regular car then to a racecar, it will still not be able to run at it's maximum speeds for long.

We need to find out what is meant by "top cruising speed".
Does "Caretaker" really say "sustainable"?
I thought Warp 9.975 was always mentioned as "maximum" or "top" cruising speed...

Warp speeds seems to be based on three settings from what I've seen. Normal cruising speeds is what a starships moves at when making long space travels (moving across territory, exploration, and the like). The starships are probably designed to go thus far with that much fuel for a reasonable amount of time before refilling. Take the Equinox as an example. While the Voyager had seemed to suffer nearly no apparent damage that couldn't be patched up, the Equinox was a wreck. That's because the ship was just a small science vessel meant for short range trips, not for 5+ years travel through hostile territory. It was so bad that even Starfleet officers were willing to lie, murder, and con their way back home. The Equinox had a max warp speed of warp 8, but there was no way they could have kept that up for long durations. They were probably moving at something closer to Warp 5 or Warp 6, very possibly less given the fact that their ship had less in the way of resources as the Voyager.

So when it comes to the Voyager taking so long, it's more of a fuel issue, rather than that of a cap on warp speed limits. The Voyager was meant to be a scout ship, which might have to occasionally respond to hostile threats (thus, a decent level of antimatter and resources) and react to hostility in a short time (hence the idea of it being fast). So in all likelyhood, despite the fact that the Voyager had a higher top speed than most other ships, even per say the Galaxy or Nebula class, said ships probably would have made it back in a shorter time simply due to their ability to sustain long travels and the level of redundancy placed on those ships, unlike those in something designed for scouting or scientific operations. Same with the Defiant class; any crew would have been in worse shape simply due to the fact that the Defiant is not meant for those types of missions. Her weapons, warp nacelles, and life support systems would be hard to replace, or require constant attention. The ship herself would probably be forced to travel at slower speeds than the Voyager, simply due to the limitations of her design.

[Who is like God arbour]

Does "Caretaker" really say "sustainable"?

Yes, it does. "Relativity" says top cruising speed. But "cruise" is really the operative term here. A cruise speed is the speed that optimizes engine performance, maximizing fuel efficiency and the distance one can travel before needing to refuel. It should also be the optimum tolerance of the engine components i.e. the speed they can go before the components' lifespans start to dramatically decline.

That's been my whole issue heretofore. Lieutenant Stadi is the ship's helmsman, so she should be intimitely familiar with its speed capabilities, as should Janeway, its captain. Warp 9.975 for an Intrepid class IS like 65 mph for your typical sedan. It strikes a balance between maintenance downtime and refueling downtime. For the damaged, not-up-to-spec Voyager, that speed was obviously much lower. An undamaged Intrepid (like the Bellerophon from "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges...see Mike Dicenso's earlier post) should perform much better.

One could assume, that the technical specifications for a ship are made under the assumption, that it will get a thoroughly checkup in certain intervals.

Under this assumption, one would conclude, that the mentioned »sustainable cruise velocity« or »top cruising speed« of warp factor 9.975 for the Voyager is only valid as long as the Voyager gets her regular checkup at a starbase.

Knowing, that this is nearly impossible in the Delta Quadrant, would plausible explain, why the crew of the Voyager has decided to not operate the Voyager at full capacity.

The example with the cars is not bad. Surly, one could drive a typical Sedan with 65 mph and, if one is in a hurry, with even higher speeds. But it's nevertheless necessary to bring it in a garage for a checkup every one or two years, where worn out parts are found and replaced. If one knows, that this is impossible, but the Sedan is needed for several years to cover a great distance, one would decide, if one is a sensible person, to drive the Sedan outmost gently, even if that means to choose a speed far lower than 65 mph.

[Roondar]

Besides, there are many ways to interpret that statement.

Earlier ships (such as the E-D) clearly where not capable of flying about warp 9.6-7+ for very long at all. When they did they almost immediately started shaking and buckling etc.

Voyager could simply be capable of holding on to those speed levels for a longer stretch without tearing itself apart. If your previous best effort for 9.6-7+ lasted all of a couple of minutes to an hour, tops even a ship that makes 9.975 for four-five hours will seem like it can sustain that speed for an awfully long time. Remember, no one ever stated just how long they could fly at that speed!

(One sidenote is that we don't even know just how fast 9.975 is - the best we've ever heard was Tom's '4 billion miles a second' statement but that referred warp 9.9, not 9.975)

It's all about the semantics :)

[Mith]

Does "Caretaker" really say "sustainable"?

Yes, it does. "Relativity" says top cruising speed. But "cruise" is really the operative term here. A cruise speed is the speed that optimizes engine performance, maximizing fuel efficiency and the distance one can travel before needing to refuel. It should also be the optimum tolerance of the engine components i.e. the speed they can go before the components' lifespans start to dramatically decline.

That's been my whole issue heretofore. Lieutenant Stadi is the ship's helmsman, so she should be intimitely familiar with its speed capabilities, as should Janeway, its captain. Warp 9.975 for an Intrepid class IS like 65 mph for your typical sedan. It strikes a balance between maintenance downtime and refueling downtime. For the damaged, not-up-to-spec Voyager, that speed was obviously much lower. An undamaged Intrepid (like the Bellerophon from "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges...see Mike Dicenso's earlier post) should perform much better.

Actually, since Voyager is a scout ship, her fuel supply wouldn't be as large as other starships, nor would her equipment be as durable as those designed to make such trips. The Galaxy would have had much larger, and much more dedicated systems to fuel, where as the Voyager would not, simply due to design.

And then look at all the wear and tear that the Voyager went through. In one episode she was starting to gain microfractures in her hulls, which would have been enough for Picard to order the Enterprise back to space dock for repairs, such as in the cases where the ship was exposed to structual integrity damage, or the like. The Voyager however, would have had to stop, or at least reduce speed before they could continue on their way (unless they were to generate a force field over the area and repair it then.

All in all, when you're looking at the massive damage that the starship took, it's a miracle it would have made it back at all. Of course, in order for this to work, we'd have to presume that the crew would have to of assumed that they would encounter trouble on the way, or they would all be idiots.

EDIT: According to some *rough* calculations, the distance from Bajor to Romulas is about 110 lightyears, at most it should have taken no more than 14-15 years for Voyager to reach Federation space at those speeds. This bullcrap of it taking seventy five is next to abusrd. The only thing I can think of is the space consomption rates. According to Alpha Wiki, the Intrepid class is supposed to be refueld every three years. That might account for the time difference. Surely a UFP ship can refuel itself, but the process would not be as refined as a dedicated facility, not to mention damage to the nacelles and the hull; greatly reducing the speeds at which Voyager could travel.

[Cocytus]

Actually, since Voyager is a scout ship, her fuel supply wouldn't be as large as other starships, nor would her equipment be as durable as those designed to make such trips. The Galaxy would have had much larger, and much more dedicated systems to fuel, where as the Voyager would not, simply due to design.

I've spoken to the fuel issue in previous posts, and you're correct to note that Voyager should have to refuel fairly frequently, even though they shouldn't have much trouble doing so. As far as the durability of her engine equipment, if the ship is designed to make warp 9.975 for extended periods, her equipment should be durable enough to sustain that. Her living accomodations, amenities, etc should be inferior to the Galaxy's, since she isn't designed to operate on her own for extended periods. Her engines, SIF, sensors (we know she had the best at the time of her launch, as per "Relativity") should be more durable/sophisticated than a Galaxy's.

Since Voyager is designed for sustained high warp, and warp factors increase exponentially at the high end of the warp scale, we should reasonably expect an Intrepid to put as much wear on her engines with a few days of high warp as a Galaxy would with a few years of standard warp, without having to be serviced every few days. That's why Voyager's engines should be more durable.

And then look at all the wear and tear that the Voyager went through. In one episode she was starting to gain microfractures in her hulls, which would have been enough for Picard to order the Enterprise back to space dock for repairs, such as in the cases where the ship was exposed to structual integrity damage, or the like. The Voyager however, would have had to stop, or at least reduce speed before they could continue on their way (unless they were to generate a force field over the area and repair it then.

Absolutely. I mentioned the warpcore microfracture the ship sustained in the transfer to the delta quandrant in "Caretaker" and there are numerous other examples of the ship getting beaten half to death ("Alliances," "The Killing Game," "Equinox" etc) It's speed capabilities started out drastically reduced, and they only got worse.

I don't really know the ability of starships to repair themselves. I tend to consider their ability to do so fairly high, but there must be a practical limit, or there'd be no need for starbases. As far as routine maintenance goes, I expect starships to be able to handle that on their own. Servicing the warp coils appears to be within their capability, even if it is something they would rather have done at a starbase. But I expect servicing the warpcore absolutely must be done at a starbase. They can tweak it (reposition the dilithium articulation frame, make minor efficiency adjustments, as in "Galaxy's Child") but repairs to the actual casing or reactant injectors probably cannot be performed by the ship itself. And every time they erect a force field or shore up a repair with the SIF, that's less energy available for the engines.

This bullcrap of it taking seventy five is next to absurd.

A 75 year transgalactic estimate for an undamaged Intrepid is absurd, I agree. For an undamaged ship, the only limitation is supplies (food, replacement parts, etc.)

[Roondar]

A 75 year transgalactic estimate for an undamaged Intrepid is absurd, I agree. For an undamaged ship, the only limitation is supplies (food, replacement parts, etc.)

For Federation (well, most of Star Trek actually) ships this means the only real limitation becomes one of energy. Everything else they pull out of the replicators.

And before we get into that discussion - if Replicators really only re-sequenced readily available 'matter-slush' then Voyager has some seriously odd stuff in 'slush form' that managed to last for some seven years. Despite constant usage. For a ship on a month-long mission.

Including, but not limited to base materials for: gold, jewels/glass, just about all other metals and composites you can think of, hull plating (in great quantities), plastics, organic materials of all sorts, glass, various rare gases, etc.

Note they never once tried to replenish base materials for the replicators. Just energy seemed to do the trick.

[Flectarn]

hmm... perhaps the voyager discussion should be split out to it's own thread?

[Mith]

Actually, since Voyager is a scout ship, her fuel supply wouldn't be as large as other starships, nor would her equipment be as durable as those designed to make such trips. The Galaxy would have had much larger, and much more dedicated systems to fuel, where as the Voyager would not, simply due to design.

I've spoken to the fuel issue in previous posts, and you're correct to note that Voyager should have to refuel fairly frequently, even though they shouldn't have much trouble doing so. As far as the durability of her engine equipment, if the ship is designed to make warp 9.975 for extended periods, her equipment should be durable enough to sustain that. Her living accomodations, amenities, etc should be inferior to the Galaxy's, since she isn't designed to operate on her own for extended periods. Her engines, SIF, sensors (we know she had the best at the time of her launch, as per "Relativity") should be more durable/sophisticated than a Galaxy's.

Since Voyager is designed for sustained high warp, and warp factors increase exponentially at the high end of the warp scale, we should reasonably expect an Intrepid to put as much wear on her engines with a few days of high warp as a Galaxy would with a few years of standard warp, without having to be serviced every few days. That's why Voyager's engines should be more durable.

Not per say, Voyager's systems are more sophisticated, but it wasn't designed to go as long without a starbase as a Galaxy class is (the GCS is pretty much a flying city unto itself), not to mention the increased power of the Galaxy means that the ship would sustain less damage. The GCS's refuel expectency is probably less frequent due to its nature (explorer vs scout ship).

It's all about the intent of the design.

Absolutely. I mentioned the warpcore microfracture the ship sustained in the transfer to the delta quandrant in "Caretaker" and there are numerous other examples of the ship getting beaten half to death ("Alliances," "The Killing Game," "Equinox" etc) It's speed capabilities started out drastically reduced, and they only got worse.

I don't really know the ability of starships to repair themselves. I tend to consider their ability to do so fairly high, but there must be a practical limit, or there'd be no need for starbases. As far as routine maintenance goes, I expect starships to be able to handle that on their own. Servicing the warp coils appears to be within their capability, even if it is something they would rather have done at a starbase. But I expect servicing the warpcore absolutely must be done at a starbase. They can tweak it (reposition the dilithium articulation frame, make minor efficiency adjustments, as in "Galaxy's Child") but repairs to the actual casing or reactant injectors probably cannot be performed by the ship itself. And every time they erect a force field or shore up a repair with the SIF, that's less energy available for the engines.

That fracture is probably what really hit Voyager pretty hard. Despite the fact that she is supposed to either have a second, or back-up core, she doesn't seem to ever use it (likely destroyed when the Caretaker brought them there). This seems to suggest that their warpcores are pretty hard to replace, and that without them, a ship is pretty much fucked in terms of FTL. Surely they seemed to work around it, but it probably reduced the ability at which the ship could stay at warp (I think many episodes gave us the image of Voyager being at impulse, when she should have logically have been at warp), so perhaps after so and so hours, the ship was forced to drop out of warp in order to let the core cool down, in order to avoid further damage (sometimes wear and tear were nessecary, which may partially explain why Voyager never actually made it to the Beta Quadrant).

A 75 year transgalactic estimate for an undamaged Intrepid is absurd, I agree. For an undamaged ship, the only limitation is supplies (food, replacement parts, etc.)

By the estimations for Voyager's claim on warp speeds, it would take over four months for it to travel from Bajor to Romulas, which is stated to take only a week (at most), and from Romulas to Earth would take over two months, which just conflicts with what we see in Star Trek. For the most part, the UFP can be passed through in about 1-2 weeks time, depending on how fast the ship is going. Ships moving at slower warps would need months at most.

[Mith]

A 75 year transgalactic estimate for an undamaged Intrepid is absurd, I agree. For an undamaged ship, the only limitation is supplies (food, replacement parts, etc.)

For Federation (well, most of Star Trek actually) ships this means the only real limitation becomes one of energy. Everything else they pull out of the replicators.

And before we get into that discussion - if Replicators really only re-sequenced readily available 'matter-slush' then Voyager has some seriously odd stuff in 'slush form' that managed to last for some seven years. Despite constant usage. For a ship on a month-long mission.

Including, but not limited to base materials for: gold, jewels/glass, just about all other metals and composites you can think of, hull plating (in great quantities), plastics, organic materials of all sorts, glass, various rare gases, etc.

Note they never once tried to replenish base materials for the replicators. Just energy seemed to do the trick.

Logically, I would think they could use their own waste to make new food, since the replicator just takes matter and alters it into something else. That would mean as long as Lt. Paris can take a shit, he can also eat.

[Cocytus]

And before we get into that discussion - if Replicators really only re-sequenced readily available 'matter-slush' then Voyager had some seriously odd stuff in 'slush form' that managed to last for some seven years. Despite constant usage. For a ship on a month-long mission.

Including, but not limited to base materials for: gold, jewels/glass, just about all other metals and composites you can think of, hull plating (in great quantities0, plastics, organic materials of all sorts, glass, various rare gases, etc.

I think Voyager's use of its replicators was well controlled, actually. They assigned replicator rations, which as far as I know no other crew has ever done. Neelix's kitchen took a lot of the strain off the replicators, as did the airponics bay.

The replicators and the transporters are two highly interrelated pieces of technology. Both convert matter into energy and back according to specific patterns. Human beings consist of, and require, remarkably few basic elements. There are 118 elements we know of, of which humans consist of, and require, about 20. http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/20 ... .Bc.r.html

The replicators also produce basic tools like tricorders, phasers, medical tools, etc. Glass can be created from all the elements listed above. It breaks down into basically silicon, carbon, oxygen and sodium, with traces of aluminum and potassium. Plastics basically break down into carbon and hydrogen. (PVC includes chlorine in its chemical makeup) Complex alloys would require additional elements. Steel is basically carbon and iron, but certain formulations include vanadium, molybdenum, chromium, nickel and manganese. Presumably tritanium and duranium are formulations that use titanium, so that would have to be included as well. Of course fusion, which is exothermic until iron is created, can provide an emergency store of these basic elements as well.

Anyway, all that said the replicators should be able to function as long as Voyager can keep them supplied with the relatively few raw elements they require. The simple tools we know they can produce all draw from a pretty limited library of elements. And food is really easy, especially since the replicators don't care too much about consistency and taste (hence many characters' dislike for replicated fare: Major Kira, Counselor Troi, Michael Eddington, Tom Paris, etc.)

[Mike DiCenso]

Some of the quotes concerning Voyager's speed (remember folks, Chakoteya's Transcripts is your friend):



"The Caretaker"

STADI: That's our ship. That's Voyager. Intrepid class. Sustainable cruise velocity of warp factor 9.975. Fifteen decks. Crew complement of 141. Bio-neural circuitry.


"Relativity"

JANEWAY: Seven hundred thousand metric tons, fifteen decks, and computer systems augmented with bio-neural circuitry, top cruising speed warp nine point nine seven five.


Quotes concerning shaving time off of Voyager's journey home with the obtaining of improved navigational data about the Delta Quadrant:



"Year of Hell, Part I"

JANEWAY: Ensign Kim and Seven of Nine have merged Starfleet and Borg ingenuity to create this new technology, and I'm sure I speak for the entire crew when I say, thank you. Now, how the hell does it work?

SEVEN: Astrometric sensors measure the radiative flux of up to three billion stars simultaneously. The computer then calculates our position relative to the centre of the galaxy.

KIM: This mapping technology is ten times more accurate than what we've been using. Seven, will you do the honours? We've plotted a new course home.

SEVEN: By my estimates the trajectory will eliminate five years from your journey.


"Hope and Fear"

ADMIRAL HAYES [on monitor]: Apologies from everyone at Starfleet Command. We've had our best people working around the clock, trying to find a wormhole, a new means of propulsion, anything to get you home. But despite our best efforts. I know it's not what you were hoping, but we've sent you all the data we've collected on the Delta Quadrant. With any luck, you'll find at least some part of it useful. . .Maybe enough to shave a few years off your journey. Safe journey. We hope to see you soon.


"Q2"

Q: Oh, before I leave. (gives her a PADD) I did a little homework for you. Consider it a thank you for everything you did for Junior.

JANEWAY: Not that I don't appreciate it, but this will only take a few years off our journey . Why not send us all the way?


Consider how much alone all three of those navigational events shave off Voyager's journey without so much as a wormhole or wild new FTL drive like slipstream. Compare this to her sister ship, the Bellerophon, which traversed at minimum hundreds of light years in one week's time or less. Or the E-D in "The Chase", which traversed around 40,000 light years in several days, to a few weeks at most.
-Mike

[Mith]

Then I guess part of the issue is also the time it would take to navigate through the area, considering how much a course adjustment helps them. Sadly, one would think they'd have a better idea of how to get to Earth simpoly by aiming their ship in that general direction.

Then again, that doesn't count for local dangers or planetary bodies, as well as territory from other species.

[Mike DiCenso]

I found the first part of "Year of Hell" at YouTube, which allows you to see the relatively small area where the course change was made that alone was enough to shave off 5 years from the trip. Pay close attention to the galaxy map graphic scenes, particularly at about 4:14 when it zooms in to show the area where the course was actually further refined. They aren't simply straightening out the ship's path around the center of the galaxy as some have claimed.

This is further supported by Q's gift in "Q2", which occurs well after the ship has passed the galaxy's center having "rounded the bend" so to speak, and is only some 30,000 ly from Earth and the Alpha Quadrant. Also interesting is that Admiral Hayes in "Hope and Fear" would have probably known about Voyager's trajectory improvement in the previous events of "Year of Hell", so this was done presumably with the hope of further refining the wayward ship's trajectory. So if there had been no room for further course improvement after Year of Hell, then neither Hayes, nor especially Q would have bothered with it.

Also important to note is that Voyager is still in the same condition more or less that it was following the events of "The Caretaker", so this is not simply a matter of the ship getting more fuel or suddenly having her engines repaired or anything like that. If we take "a few years" to mean at least 2 years, then Voyager has about 9 years shaved off this way. If, however, up to five years, then 15 years total.

Thus the Voyager Equation, if you will, is one that is much more complicated than previously realized.
-Mike

[Cocytus]

Part of the equation should concern the galaxy's own rotation about its core. The sun is only about 28,000 LY from the core, moving at about 492,000 mph completing one circuit in some 250,000,000 years. As the galaxy rotates, objects can be expected to cross Voyager's path with some regularity, increasing in frequency as Voyager nears the dense galactic core. Knowing what's in front of it, and what will be in front of it, helps Voyager make course corrections which minimize the amount of detour. Thus, improved accuracy and range in the sensors, and Q's reconnaissance, shave time off.

I wouldn't expect Voyager to go through the core even with advanced sensor. She'd have to contend with dense star clusters and supermassive black holes.