To what extent is continuity jettisoned in Enterprise?

[Mike DiCenso]

I can't justify anything in Enterprise, since continuity is completely jettisoned, (with regards to TOS)

I have read such sentiments again and again.

But I haven't noticed an unsually strong violence of continuity in comparison to other Star Trek serieses.

To what extent is continuity jettisoned in Enterprise?

What exactly conflict with the earlier shooted serieses, which are set in a later timeline?

I'll repost my last response from the thread the OP is taken from:

I'm talking about completely ignoring everything TOS said about starfleet ships from 100 years ago, including them being crude, atomic powered, and having no visual ship-to-ship communication ("Balance of Terror"). Enterprise completely ignores this, and gives us a ship that looks more advanced than the E-D in TNG.

Even in Kirk's time, viewers were sticking out of consoles on goosenecks, and data was printed on regular paper when regurgitated from the computer.

The NX-01 is not more advanced looking than the E-D. Far from it. The NX-01's look is much closer to the TOS-movie era than to TNG. The interior of the ship is much more cramped and submarine-like than any capital ship seen in Trek so far. The NX-01 also lacks things the E-D crew would take for granted: Spacious and luxurious interior accomadations; touch pad displays; computer voice activated systems; holodecks and holographic displays.

Also, the statement "nor was there any ship-to-ship visual communication" can be taken a number of different ways. It can mean that there was no capability for such. Or it can mean that one side or both in the conflict chose not to communicate with each other. Given what ST:ENT has established, the Romulans intentionally did not communicate using visual ship-to-ship means when dealing with Earth or other stellar spacefaring powers.

As you posted here already with BoT quote, Wayne, we know that the weapons, not the ships were supposed to be atomic, but that really isn't any issue since the spatial torpedoes do appear to be nuclear weapons of some sort, and the NX class of starships appear to be the only ones carrying photonic torpedoes.

In TOS, the data was both visual (on viewscreens) as well as on paper, and could be brought up with the simple wave of a hand (e.g. Spock bringing up information on the Talos star system in "The Cage"). And really, the simple plasma displays of the NX-01 look fairly crude compared to even the 1960's athestics of TOS.
-Mike

[Nonamer]

Balance of Terror is one of the most important episodes in TOS and the cloak device is one of the most crucial plot devices in it. Through dirt at critical historical events doesn't bode well for the whole series.

Sure, it is a good episode.

But why is it "one of the most important episodes in TOS"?

There are no far-ranging incidents, without which the rest of Star Trek would be ununderstandable.

You could have never seen this episode and your understanding of Star Trek wouldn't have chanced drastically.

You could have said that about any show for any series, if you were told what was going on. BOT was a critical part of ST history because it introduced the Romulans in ST. Altering aspects of that episode indicates that the producers and writers never cared about continuity in the first place.

[SailorSaturn13]

Romulans with warp drive

Always had. Their ENERGY cores were substandard... before invention of artifficial black holes.

Chaulk it up to Cochran's influence from seeing the E-E and working on a design the best he could with his more limited knowledge of warp.


The NX-01 resembles, quite strikingly, late 24th century ships, e.g., the Akira.

To me, it is an issue of Warp core size.
NX had small core (relatively) but could only make warp 5. So it is simple:
- NX ships were built aesthetically
ENT - small core size
- TOS - somewhere in-between they discovered they COULD go faster than that, by by a price of a overblown warp core and nacelles. They sacrifices aesthetics for speed and range.
TOS - big cores.
- Later as tech improved they were able to reduce core sizes again (just compare E-D and Voyager!)
They then returned to more aestetic design of ENT.
TNG - mid to small core size


and note, with all trek materlias being same thing (life show0 we cannot really throw it away. We can ONLY deal with contradictions case-on-case.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Note for the record that in TOS, "impulse" seems to result in FTL travel sometimes. Saying that "their power was simple impulse" accordingly doesn't rule out FTL capabilities, especially if they're really talking about fusion vs antimatter reactors.

[Who is like God arbour]

You could have said that about any show for any series, if you were told what was going on. BOT was a critical part of ST history because it introduced the Romulans in ST. Altering aspects of that episode indicates that the producers and writers never cared about continuity in the first place.

And they was reintroduced in TNG "The neutral zone".

The "new" Romulans were different than the TOS Romulans; new look, new character, new ships.

And then, they was "reintroduced" in Enterprise.

I don't see the relevance.






I think, the Romulans from TNG and Enterprise have more in common, than the TOS Romulans with the TNG and Enterprise Romulans.

And there was more TNG episodes concerning Romulans, than TOS episodes.

[Kazeite]

If they (Starfleet - not the UFP)

What difference does it make?

would have had a better understanding of the Klingons, they could have had established better diplomatic contacts.

Indubitably, but that wasn't my point. My point was that UFP relation with Klingons (as of 2154) are bad not because of bad FC - it's because of later actions, disconnected from FC. Even perfect diplomatic relations can be ruined.

Sure, it is easier to throw the whole Enterprise series away because there are some inconsistencies.

I don't want to throw away the whole ENT because there are "some" inconsistencies - I want to throw it away because I think there are many inconsistencies, far too many to rationalize, and I don't like retconning older stuff.

[Who is like God arbour]

If they (Starfleet - not the UFP)

What difference does it make?

It was only for the protocol. At that time, there was still no UFP.
But it is not really relevant.

would have had a better understanding of the Klingons, they could have had established better diplomatic contacts.

Indubitably, but that wasn't my point. My point was that UFP relation with Klingons (as of 2154) are bad not because of bad FC - it's because of later actions, disconnected from FC. Even perfect diplomatic relations can be ruined.

Ok. First Contact is a diplomatical business. The relations to other races is also a diplomatical business. If you got in a war, your diplomatic has screwed up. That would be an ideal starting to revise your diplomatical protocols and the protocols for First Contacts too.
But in the situation, in which Picard was, you wouldn't want to explain all the finer details of UFP history, diplomatic protocols and the sense or nonsense of surveillance before a first contact. Therefore he could have given a simplified explanation, which would satisfy the chancelor.

Sure, it is easier to throw the whole Enterprise series away because there are some inconsistencies.

I don't want to throw away the whole ENT because there are "some" inconsistencies - I want to throw it away because I think there are many inconsistencies, far too many to rationalize, and I don't like retconning older stuff.

That's exactly, what I want to determine in this thread. But till now, there aren't so many inconsistencies, which can't be explained.

The problem is maybe not Enterprise but the deadlocked and prejudicial appreciation of TOS, which could also be interpreted different and have to be interpreted different in light of Enterprise. But one have to have an open mind.

As I said, till now, there are only a few minor inconsistencies. Nothing which would in my opinion justify to throw the whole Enterprise series away. IN TNG, DS9 oder Voyager are as many if not more inconsistencies to TOS.

[Kazeite]

Ok. First Contact is a diplomatical business. The relations to other races is also a diplomatical business. If you got in a war, your diplomatic has screwed up.

But not because of bad First Contact with the Klingons :)

It seems to me that we're going in the circles here. I go, like "FC had nothing whatsoever with deteriorating diplomatic relations", and you go like, "but FC is a diplomatic business!" Yes it is, but that's beside the point. You're trying to show connection where none exists. FC with Klingons shown in "Broken Bow" goes contrary to the Picards words.

But in the situation, in which Picard was, you wouldn't want to explain all the finer details of UFP history,(...)

I would've used example adequate to the situation, instead of changing "FC with Klingons wasn't so bad, but we screwed up later" to "FC with Klingons was so bad they started fighting with us!"

The problem is maybe not Enterprise but the deadlocked and prejudicial appreciation of TOS, which could also be interpreted different and have to be interpreted different in light of Enterprise. But one have to have an open mind.

I did had an open mind, but faced with rising pile of inconsistencies I simply

As I said, till now, there are only a few minor inconsistencies.

Would you call cloaking device inconsistency "minor"? I wouldn't. Similiary, Earth Starfleet apparently has detailed info on Borg, and somehow, 200 years later, there's no info about race of cybernetic humanoids which used nanobots. Is that also a minor inconsistency? And how come NX-01 design follows Akira class design so closely? Is that also a minor inconsistency?

[Who is like God arbour]

But in the situation, in which Picard was, you wouldn't want to explain all the finer details of UFP history,(...)

I would've used example adequate to the situation, instead of changing "FC with Klingons wasn't so bad, but we screwed up later" to "FC with Klingons was so bad they started fighting with us!"

Is it impossible, that Picard would have decided otherwise?
Could it be, that he have thought, that such an example would give a better justification for the surveillance?
All you have, is a quote.

As I said, till now, there are only a few minor inconsistencies.

Would you call cloaking device inconsistency "minor"? I wouldn't. Similiary, Earth Starfleet apparently has detailed info on Borg, and somehow, 200 years later, there's no info about race of cybernetic humanoids which used nanobots. Is that also a minor inconsistency? And how come NX-01 design follows Akira class design so closely? Is that also a minor inconsistency?

Concerning cloacking device:
I refer to

Just a point of order here; the Romulan cloaks of "Minefield" were quite nicely retconned in the 4th season into being holographic in nature. So what Spock is saying in BoT, is correct, from that certain perspective. The remaining issue is the Suliban cloaks. But those particular cloaks are part of the Temporal Cold War, and may have either disappeared as a result of the events in "Stormfront, Part II", or knowledge of their existance suppressed by the nascent Section 31.

The latter could be the same with the borg or

The usual idea on the Borg was that they were simply an unknown "species" and marked as uber-top-secret, but then largely forgotten. After all, if the subspace beacon thing was only going to arrive hundreds of years later, and with decades being assumed for such a voyage at best, then it's possible that the information simply had not been disseminated.

Concerning the design of the NX-01:
Maybe the NX-01 design doesn't follow Akira class design so closely but the Akira class design follows the NX-01 design so closely.

[Kazeite]

Is it impossible, that Picard would have decided otherwise?

So now you want to argue that Picard is what, a liar? I don't like Picard, but I don't believe that he's a fool.

Concerning cloacking device:

Um... no, Romulan cloaks weren't retconned in 4th season, from what I recall - no Romulan ship seen in 4th season had any sort of cloaking device. And even if I remember incorrectly, then it still leaves us with two other working stealth devices... and it doesn't make sense why would anyone supress such information.

No to mention, if Suliban cloaks are indeed parts of TCW, then this explanation actually invalidates large parts of ENT as the source of the viable information, instead of explaining this inconsistency.

The latter could be the same with the borg or

Except that Starfleet met later with survivors from Borg and even sent a research ship in 2355 for the express purpose of finding them. And with Data on board, and this information being 200 years old, and considering that we've actually witnessed how Enterprise-D computers hold informations from even earlier eras, I don't believe that it would've been "largely forgotten".

(See, guys? I disagree with Darkstar! So, nyah! :) )

Maybe the NX-01 design doesn't follow Akira class design so closely but the Akira class design follows the NX-01 design so closely.

Maybe, but it doesn't change anything. Ship built in 1900 isn't going to look like ship built in 1800 with some new fancy engine; ship built in 2000 isn't going to look like ship built in 1900, either.

I have no problem with ships being vaguely similiar to each other, like Ambassador class having two nacelles, saucer connected with engineering hull, with deflector dish in the front and shuttlebay in the back, just like on Constitution class - no, the trouble is that NX directly copies elements from Akira (or vice-versa). I would have no problem with NX being vaguely Akira-like, just like I have no problem with Ambassador or Galaxy vaguely resembling Constitution, but when I see one detail on NX and see another, exactly like it on the Akira...

[Nonamer]

You could have said that about any show for any series, if you were told what was going on. BOT was a critical part of ST history because it introduced the Romulans in ST. Altering aspects of that episode indicates that the producers and writers never cared about continuity in the first place.

And they was reintroduced in TNG "The neutral zone".

The "new" Romulans were different than the TOS Romulans; new look, new character, new ships.

And then, they was "reintroduced" in Enterprise.

I don't see the relevance.






I think, the Romulans from TNG and Enterprise have more in common, than the TOS Romulans with the TNG and Enterprise Romulans.

And there was more TNG episodes concerning Romulans, than TOS episodes.

But would there even be Romulans without the episode BOT?

Perhaps you can always justify this one way or the other, but I don't you can simply ignore a fairly important even in ST. One thing I can say for sure, if you saw BOT first, you would have never created the events in ENT that relates to cloaking devices.

[Who is like God arbour]

But would there even be Romulans without the episode Balance of Terror?

Look at the first introductions of the Ferengis (TNG episode "The Last Outpost") or the Cardassians (TNG episode "The Wounded"). And look, how these races have developed.

Look at the appearance and characterisation of the Klingons in TOS and TNG.

That are inconsistencies too. (The latter was not solved until Enterprise.)
C'est la vie. The show must go on.



In TOS, the Romulan appeared three times ("Balance of Terror", "The Deadly Years", "The Enterprise Incident"). If they would have never appeared again after TOS, it would be totally irrelevant. As far as I know, at first, it wasn't planed to have the Romulans in TNG at all. But then they have needed a new great enemy and have watched TOS. They could have as easily decided, to create a new race and let the Romulans buried in oblivion.

In TNG, they have appeared 23 times ("The Neutral Zone", "Contagion", "The Enemy", "The Defector", "Tin Man", "Future Imperfect", "Data's Day", "The Drumhead", "The Mind's Eye", "Redemption", "Redemption II", "Unification I", "Unification II", "The Next Phase", "Face of the Enemy", "Birthright, Part I", "Birthright, Part II", "The Chase", "Timescape", "Gambit, Part I", "Gambit, Part II", "The Pegasus", "All Good Things...") I think, that TNG was more important for the characterisation of the Romulans, than TOS.

And I think, that the Romulans from Enterprise have more similarities with the TNG Romulans, than with the TOS Romulans.

So now you want to argue that Picard is what, a liar? I don't like Picard, but I don't believe that he's a fool.

I have said from the very first, that what Picard has said, doesn't have to be the exactly trueness:

He has not said, that the Klingons have just developed the warp drive. And there was really a war between the Klingons and the UFP because of cultural diversity. Sure, it was not immediate after the first contact in the first Enterprise episode but the threat of war was always there. This war could have maybe avoided, if the Klingons and the UFP had better understanded each other. Thus the decision to surveillance before making contact. And I doubt, that Picard wanted to give a lesson in UFP history. I think, he has simplified the reasons for the decision. A civilisation, who has just developed warp drive, shouldn't be a real military threat to the UFP. But a civilisation, who has the warp drive already in common use and with which a first contact was made could be such a thread.

There was a war because cultural diversity, which could have avoided, if the Klingons and the UFP had better understanded each other. But it wasn't immediate after the first contact.
The surveillance, he has spoken of, is necessary to learn to understand the other culture, regardless if it has just developed the warp drive or has it in common use already.
The war was only an exemplary reason to justify the necessary of the surveillance. But to simplify the explanation, he has not mentioned, that the war was not immediate after the first contact.

I wouldn't say, that it is necessary a lie, if he has no real intention to deceive or harm his interlocutor.
And he is Captain of a star ship. He has its mission. And if the mission demand a little deception or the retention of informations, he would do it, especially if there is no harm done.

Um... no, Romulan cloaks weren't retconned in 4th season, from what I recall - no Romulan ship seen in 4th season had any sort of cloaking device. And even if I remember incorrectly, then it still leaves us with two other working stealth devices... and it doesn't make sense why would anyone supress such information.

I think, it would make sense to supress such information. After the Xindi-incident, the mood on Earth was xenophobic. Maybe someone has decided, that it would be not good, if men on earth would know, that there are other dangerous races.

No to mention, if Suliban cloaks are indeed parts of TCW, then this explanation actually invalidates large parts of ENT as the source of the viable information, instead of explaining this inconsistency.

I think, that the happenings of some events shown in Enterprise in relation to the temporal war are highly dubios. But there are enough events, which aren't related to the temporal war.
If you doubt the whole Enterprise series because temporal wobbliness, you have nothing in the whole Star Trek as a source of viable informations.

Except that Starfleet met later with survivors from Borg and even sent a research ship in 2355 for the express purpose of finding them. And with Data on board, and this information being 200 years old, and considering that we've actually witnessed how Enterprise-D computers hold informations from even earlier eras, I don't believe that it would've been "largely forgotten".

The Enterprise-D computers hold only the information, which are saved in it. Sometimes, it access some kind of UFP sub space internet database to get information.
But nevertheless, sometimes, informations get lost or you would have to know, what you are searching respectively where to search. [TNG- episode: "Up The Long Ladder"]

(See, guys? I disagree with Darkstar! So, nyah! :) )

I don't see the relevance of this statement.

Maybe, but it doesn't change anything. Ship built in 1900 isn't going to look like ship built in 1800 with some new fancy engine; ship built in 2000 isn't going to look like ship built in 1900, either.

I have no problem with ships being vaguely similiar to each other, like Ambassador class having two nacelles, saucer connected with engineering hull, with deflector dish in the front and shuttlebay in the back, just like on Constitution class - no, the trouble is that NX directly copies elements from Akira (or vice-versa). I would have no problem with NX being vaguely Akira-like, just like I have no problem with Ambassador or Galaxy vaguely resembling Constitution, but when I see one detail on NX and see another, exactly like it on the Akira

Does look the NX or some details of it really exactly like the Akira or some details of it?
Maybe you could provide images to compare both appearances.
I would want to know, that not only the hull configurations looks similiar but relevant details, which really shouldn't look similiar.

[SailorSaturn13]

Except that Starfleet met later with survivors from Borg and even sent a research ship in 2355 for the express purpose of finding them. And with Data on board, and this information being 200 years old, and considering that we've actually witnessed how Enterprise-D computers hold informations from even earlier eras, I don't believe that it would've been "largely forgotten".

And some information may be inaccessible unless a special code is inserted. Remember Omega directive? Only captains and above know it, and even they aren't allowed to share it. Maybe Borg info was "Admiral leval". And yes, there WAS prior knowledge of the borg. Hansens(7 of 9's parents) KNEW what basically to expect from them. And Guinan fled from them and was rescued by E-B. So yes, info was there , but most likely supressed.

[Kazeite]

(...) A civilisation, who has just developed warp drive, shouldn't be a real military threat to the UFP. But a civilisation, who has the warp drive already in common use and with which a first contact was made could be such a thread.

So... this makes Picard analogy even more incorrect, wouldn't you say?

I wouldn't say, that it is necessary a lie, if he has no real intention to deceive or harm his interlocutor.
And he is Captain of a star ship. He has its mission. And if the mission demand a little deception or the retention of informations, he would do it, especially if there is no harm done.

So, basically, "he may not be a liar, or he may be a liar, but there was no harm in lying". On the contrary - this very episode specifically shows us that Picard witheld informations about Riker, which nearly cost him his life and whole mission.

I think, it would make sense to supress such information.

What? Starfleet has decided to keep valuable intel from their own officers because general population of Earth was xenophobic? It doesn't make any sense.

If you doubt the whole Enterprise series because temporal wobbliness,(...)

I specifically said "large parts of ENT". Not "whole ENT".

The Enterprise-D computers hold only the information, which are saved in it. Sometimes, it access some kind of UFP sub space internet database to get information.

There's no problem - between "Q-Who" and "Best of Both Worlds" there was ample amount of time to dig trough entire archives.

But nevertheless, sometimes, informations get lost or you would have to know, what you are searching respectively where to search. [TNG- episode: "Up The Long Ladder"]

What? But Picard actually found some info about Mariposa...

Does look the NX or some details of it really exactly like the Akira or some details of it?

Yes. My favourite parts are shuttlebay doors from Akira, which are also present on NX-01 but seem so serve no purpose whatsoever (since on NX-01 shuttlebay is elsewhere).

Maybe you could provide images to compare both appearances.

Or maybe you could run simple Google search. It's not complicated.
There's also article by Bernd Schneider outlining basic problems with NX-01 design.

And some information may be inaccessible unless a special code is inserted. Remember Omega directive?

So, what, Omega Directive protecting the information about the most powerful weapon/energy source was accessible by captains, but info about potentially hostile advanced alien race would be accesible only by admirals? That doesn't make sense.

[Mike DiCenso]

The other side of that article is Doug Drexler's response, though the retro examples he cites are only seperated by some 50-65 years, while the Akira and NX are 115 years apart.
-Mike