Star Wars: Fighters vs Capital Ships revisited

[Mike DiCenso]

Mike DiCenso wrote:
Wasn't just because of Han's say-so. Lando had to have done some impressive stuff.

Gandalf wrote:
hardly something to offer a General's commision on. Nor did it show a particular grasp of military tactics seeing as he employed a trick to win the day.

Here's the Wookiepedia quote:

"Calrissian began the battle by hiding his vessel in the ice ring of Taanab's moon, and lying in wait for the pirates. When the pirates were close enough, he intercepted them, ejecting his ship's cargo – a full load of electrified Conner nets – in the midst of the pirate fleet. While most of the pirate vessels were entangled and disabled by the drifting nets, Calrissian used his tractor beams to bash their ships with heavy chunks of ice from the moon's ring. Finally, Calrissian rallied the Taanab fleet, leading them to a decisive and swift victory. Calrissian himself was credited with nineteen kills."

I'd say that this shows that Lando is an excellent improvisational tactician.

Gandalf wrote:
I said he spent a year looking for Han and hanging out at the palace not that he spent the whole year there.

So you don't know really know long Lando and Chewie spent looking for Han and "hanging out" at the palace?
-Mike

[Gandalf]

Here's the Wookiepedia quote:

"Calrissian began the battle by hiding his vessel in the ice ring of Taanab's moon, and lying in wait for the pirates. When the pirates were close enough, he intercepted them, ejecting his ship's cargo – a full load of electrified Conner nets – in the midst of the pirate fleet. While most of the pirate vessels were entangled and disabled by the drifting nets, Calrissian used his tractor beams to bash their ships with heavy chunks of ice from the moon's ring. Finally, Calrissian rallied the Taanab fleet, leading them to a decisive and swift victory. Calrissian himself was credited with nineteen kills."

I'd say that this shows that Lando is an excellent improvisational tactician.

If it weren't for the nets he would have got his ass kicked. He employed a trick that just happened to save the day. I hate to break it to you but real military officers to not rely on tricks to win the day.

So you don't know really know long Lando and Chewie spent looking for Han and "hanging out" at the palace?
-Mike

It's accepted that there was a year in between ESB and ROTJ.

[Dragoon]

If it weren't for the nets he would have got his ass kicked. He employed a trick that just happened to save the day. I hate to break it to you but real military officers to not rely on tricks to win the day.

I would like to refer you to intelligence operations during World War II, especailly the dummy army "commanded" by Patton prior to the D-Day invasions.

In war, people use tricks to outsmart and fool the enemy. Tricks win the day. Information and outsmarting your enemy are half the battle.

It's accepted that there was a year in between ESB and ROTJ.

That doesn't tell us how long they were looking for Han.


Besides, to say that "Lando doesn't know what he's talking about" is a complete cop-out.

[Gandalf]

I would like to refer you to intelligence operations during World War II, especailly the dummy army "commanded" by Patton prior to the D-Day invasions.

In war, people use tricks to outsmart and fool the enemy. Tricks win the day. Information and outsmarting your enemy are half the battle.

Just because he had the saavy to out wit a bunch of pirates doesn't mean he has the where with all to make a good General. In point of fact the Alliance would have lost if it weren't for the efforts on the planet and Landos "brilliance" would have gotten them all killed.

That doesn't tell us how long they were looking for Han.

Have you got a better explaination?

Besides, to say that "Lando doesn't know what he's talking about" is a complete cop-out.

BS, if it fits the facts then the theory is sound.

[Dragoon]

BS, if it fits the facts then the theory is sound.

It doesn't fit the facts! You're trying to make the facts fit your theory. There is no indication that Lando doesn't know what he's doing. He makes several good calls, makes gambles that pay off and successfully leads an attack against teh Death Star. You are basing the entire idea of Lando not knowing what he's talking about on conjecture. It's true, he could've just not know what he's doing, but it's equally valid that he would have been briefed and understood the ships that he would be facing and the ships he had on his side.

[Gandalf]

It doesn't fit the facts! You're trying to make the facts fit your theory. There is no indication that Lando doesn't know what he's doing. He makes several good calls, makes gambles that pay off and successfully leads an attack against teh Death Star. You are basing the entire idea of Lando not knowing what he's talking about on conjecture. It's true, he could've just not know what he's doing, but it's equally valid that he would have been briefed and understood the ships that he would be facing and the ships he had on his side.

The only reason why the Death Star got destroyed was pure simple luck. If it wasn't for the Ewoks worshipping C3-PO the strike team would have been eaten. And Lando's tactic of engaging the Stardestroyers at point blank range would have resulted in the Alliance's destruction. Sure they would have taken out a bunch of Imperials with them but they would have been toast.

[Mr. Oragahn]

I'd like to see this as well. Considering the yields supported by the ICS and the uber armor underneath the super shields, starfighters and bombers would be utterly pointless, not only because their yields wouldn't be enough, even shields down, but also cause it would be much faster for the assaulting capital ship to just fire a few more bolts.

I've already supplied a perfectly logical argument that is consistant with the establised facts in the Star Wars universe.

You've said that fighters and bombers only attack unshielded ships which have suffered heavy bombardment from other capital ships.
This point adress I did.
First, the lack of logic of relying on fighters to finish off the job that the capital ships could do much faster without requirement all the logistic to maintain fighters and bombers.
Secondly, the problem being that your friends, and the ICS, tend to believe that even a ship's hull is uber strong, well enough to resist gigaton/teraton shots before failing. Are you going to argue that those various missiles and torpedoes are in that range now?
Thirdly, there's the ROTJ reference of Lando asking his squadron to divert the enemy starfighetrs' fire from the rebel capital ships. An order that would be pointless at the start of a battle if the said snubfighters were not dangerous to rebel capships.

Your words reveal more faith in the writings you adore than anything else.

And what school of thought shall we follow then?

Anything that has more to do with a school than a church.

It's well established in the EU that fighters can take down capships. If we are allowed to disregard the EU in this regard, we can certainly disregard the ICS too, since it too is just a piece of the EU.

Stackpoles novels are based on game mechanics which are not included in the canon system.

And? What if Zahn based all of his stories on Ab Fab?
Where the inspiration comes from is irrelevant. Backstage stuff and all. The novels exist, their content exists and is declared canon.
It's funny how your group becomes so radical that you're actually dismissing entire pans of the EU just to suit your views.

I'd also like to note: Why would they need to draw fire away from the cruisers if fighters can't hurt them?

Just because Lando is a General doesn't mean that he actually knows that much about the capability of Alliance cruisers. He was a smuggler/con-man/administrator of Cloud City not an expert on military hardware. In fact he spent the year previous to the attack looking for Han/hanging out in Jabba's palace. Hardly the enviroment for studying up on military hardware. He got the job leading the fighters on the strength of Solo's recommendation not based on his military knowledge.

This has to be some of the most absurd commments ever. He's a general. He has to know at least the very basic, like what can pose a menace to what. If he doesn't know that, there's no point putting him as a battle general.

See, I can agree that the whole medical frigate deal is a bit vague, just like the rest of cases where fighters start to damage parts of ISDs. We don't know what dropped the shields, and we don't need a bridge scene, like Dragoon suggests.
But your point about Lando's position and knowledge in that case is pathetic, really. It's dramatic that you feel to reach that level of asinine claims to defend a position that had already been proved as relying on cherry picking.

Actually that whole scene reveals both Lando's and Ackbars ignorance of military tactics both past and present. During the opening battle in ROTS, Republic and CIS forces are observed fighting at "knife range", in fact there is a shot of a Venator boarding a Trade Federation Battleship. Clearly these tactics had existed previously and a General and an Admiral should have been aware of there use and trained in them.

The main difference here is that Lando suggested the knife range fight to increase the rebels' chances of survival.
The point being to merge with the imperial fleet and use their ships as shields to forbid the DS from getting a lock on them.

It is also Lando who knows his own concussion missiles are strong enough to take out the Death Star's main reactor even when Wedge's proton torpedos are insufficient.

I see nothing out of the ordinary there, it's well known that concussion missiles are designed to take out armoured targets while proton torpedos are designed for unarmoured targets. Lando could simply have been briefed on what weapons would be most useful against the Death Star's reactor prior to the attack but not have had time for a general work up of Alliance capabilities.

And of course given the reins of the Alliance's snubfighter squadrons against pilots who've been fighting for years. Sure. Lando clearly got help from Solo there, but no matter the hand, if he wasn't up to the necessary requirements as a leader, the Alliance would have simply not put him in charge.

I think it's fairly clear from the battle in ROTJ alone that General Calrissian knows the capabilities of Rebellion and Imperial military hardware, and has a grasp of military strategy. I would say he is established in the canon as an expert.

I'd say he knows as much as any amateur.

Sure. I mean, he's a smuggler who probably survived for years against all sorts of imperial patrols, bounty hunters and pirates in space. He's been shown having his own private army as an administrator, he's a fine gunman. He's the one coming with the good ideas during the battle, and that makes him an amateur.
That's very desperate from you.

Battle of Taanab, hardly something to offer a General's commision on. Nor did it show a particular grasp of military tactics seeing as he employed a trick to win the day.

I think this is just insane. You post a link to an EU event where Lando actually shows a definitive proof of well planned plan and strategy to take out a large part of an enemy fleet with his own ship, and then join the local force to finish it, and you say it doesn't prove anything.
That's exactly the kind of intelligence a cunning general should display, but I guess that as long as it doesn't not involve capital ships, it's not good enough for you.
Sure.

If it weren't for the nets he would have got his ass kicked. He employed a trick that just happened to save the day. I hate to break it to you but real military officers to not rely on tricks to win the day.

Tricks are nothing more than one shot tactics for most of them, that sometimes can be reused. I think Thrawn did use a couple of tricks, like cloaking fighters in a cargo ship at Sluis Van, or using cloaked asteroids and a cloaked armed ship under Coruscant shields.
Oh, I see, Thrawn is T3H general with the white costume and the big fat warships, and he babbles crap about art and warfare, like Sun Tzu meets Picasso, so that makes his tricks valid.
:rolleyes:

It's accepted that there was a year in between ESB and ROTJ.

Shadows of the Empire.

The only reason why the Death Star got destroyed was pure simple luck. If it wasn't for the Ewoks worshipping C3-PO the strike team would have been eaten. And Lando's tactic of engaging the Stardestroyers at point blank range would have resulted in the Alliance's destruction. Sure they would have taken out a bunch of Imperials with them but they would have been toast.

In case you didn't watch the film, it was the best thing to do to buy Solo some precious time, when you had a battle station on your tail instagibbing your main ships.

Now, am I the only interested in The Phantom Menace's space battle or what??

[Gandalf]

You've said that fighters and bombers only attack unshielded ships which have suffered heavy bombardment from other capital ships.
This point adress I did.
First, the lack of logic of relying on fighters to finish off the job that the capital ships could do much faster without requirement all the logistic to maintain fighters and bombers.
Secondly, the problem being that your friends, and the ICS, tend to believe that even a ship's hull is uber strong, well enough to resist gigaton/teraton shots before failing. Are you going to argue that those various missiles and torpedoes are in that range now?

Missiles and torpedoes are established as being in the megaton range from the ICS and larger (Slave I missiles and mines) I said that they could be used to attack weak points on a ship, sensors, landing bays, exposed weapons turrets.

Thirdly, there's the ROTJ reference of Lando asking his squadron to divert the enemy starfighetrs' fire from the rebel capital ships. An order that would be pointless at the start of a battle if the said snubfighters were not dangerous to rebel capships.

I have repeatadly pointed out that at no time do we see a TIE engage a capital ship.

Anything that has more to do with a school than a church.

Right a series of books written by a sciencetist with solid logic, reasoning and methodalogy on his side. What exactly are you and your chorts bringing to the table?

And? What if Zahn based all of his stories on Ab Fab?
Where the inspiration comes from is irrelevant. Backstage stuff and all. The novel exist, their content exist and is declared canon.
It's funny how your group becomes so radical that you're actually dismissing entire pans of the EU just to suit your views.

And where conflict exists in the canon we take the higher canon IE: the movies which the ICS is based on and discard the rest.

This has to be some of the most absurd commments ever. He's a general. He has to know at least the very basic, like what can pose a menace to what. If he doesn't know that, there's no point putting him as a battle general.

It's obvious that the Alliance is posting hero's to the rank of General for the purposes of moral issues. And even their highest Admiral was unaware of a tactic first used by the Republic 20 years prior at the Battle of Courascant in which the Republic engaged the forces of the CIS at point blank range. And Ackbar was supposed to be privy to all of the Empires tactical information.

See, I can agree that the whole medical frigate deal is a bit vague, just like the rest of cases where fighters start to damage parts of ISDs. We don't know what dropped the shields, and we don't need a bridge scene, like Dragoon suggests.
But your point about Lando's position and knowledge in that case is pathetic, really. It's dramatic that you feel to reach that level of asinine claims to defend a position that had already been proved as relying on cherry picking.

And I see you have yet to provoid an anternative methodology for looking at the Star Wars universe. At least using the ICS has solid science behind it. And discarding prior canon where it conflicts with higher canon makes sense rather than just including flawed material because everything is valid is somehow a better way of looking at things.

The main difference here is that Lando suggested the knife range fight to increase the rebels' chances of survival.
The point being to merge with the imperial fleet and use their ships as shields to forbid the DS from getting a lock on them.

And they still would have lost if it weren't for luck. Ackbar suggested a far more sensible strategy.

And of course given the reins of the Alliance's snubfighter squadrons against pilots who've been fighting for years. Sure. Lando clearly got help from Solo there, but no matter the hand, if he wasn't up to the necessary requirements as a leader, the Alliance would have simply not put him in charge.

The thing is the Alliance has a history of pputting amateurs in the thick of things, Solo, Lando, Luke.

Sure. I mean, he's a smuggler who probably survived for years against all sorts of imperial patrols, bounty hunters and pirates in space. He's been shown having his own private army as an administrator, he's a fine gunman. He's the one coming with the good ideas during the battle, and that makes him an amateur.
That's very desperate from you.

By all means demonstrate how any of that qualifies one to become a General.

I think this is just insane. You post a link to an EU event where Lando actually shows a definitive proof of well planned plan and strategy to take out a large part of an enemy fleet with his own ship, and then join the local force to finish it, and you say it doesn't prove anything.
That's exactly the kind of intelligence a cunning general should display, but I guess that as long as it doesn't not involve capital ships, it's not good enough for you.
Sure.

My point is that he is ignorant of the capabilities of his fighters when compared to capital ships.

Tricks are nothing more than one shot tactics for most of them, that sometimes can be reused. I think Thrawn did use a couple of tricks, like cloaking fighters in a cargo ship at Sluis Van, or using cloaked asteroids and a cloaked armed ship under Coruscant shields.
Oh, I see, Thrawn is T3H general with the white costume and the big fat warships, and he babbles crap about art and warfare, like Sun Tzu meets Picasso, so that makes his tricks valid.
:rolleyes:

I have never expressed my opinion on Thrawn one way or the other so your just throwing out red herrings.

Shadows of the Empire.

I'm afraid I'm not familiar with that one.

In case you didn't watch the film, it was the best thing to do to buy Solo some precious time, when you had a battle station on your tail instagibbing your main ships.

Yeah and if the shield hadn't gone down it would have gotten them all killed.

Now, am I the only interested in The Phantom Menace's space battle or what??

There was nothing in that battle to indicate that fighters could take down capital ships save for Anakin getting extremely lucky.

[watchdog]

I was first introduced to this tactic in various comics, and later found out that the tactic was also used in some of the novels (even more surprising is the scene from ROTJ immedeatly after Adm. Ackbar says to concentrate all fire on the SSD, Did I feel vindicated). Mr. Wong when I brought this to his attention tried to tell me that it was contradicted by canon per the events in TPM (My response; see above on ROTJ), and the thing about the video games. It's only contradicted by canon if you believe that the ships are exactly as powerful as he says they are, I dont.

There is nothing in ROTJ that indicates a fighter torpedo volley whats so ever.

I would partially agree with this, when the A-wings dive for the shield domes they are firing something, it did not look like lasers nor did it look like torps (although the very last shot fired was a torpedo of some sort). The factor here is that they displayed the focused fire tactic that I'm so interested in, massing several shots at one point to compromise the shields. I suppose it would be easy to see just about anything in the event, but I think it's pretty interesting that the incident is similar to a tactic that has mostly only been seen in the comics and novels.

As for the game play bit, fine games are not admissable, but the stories that frame the games have been entered into the official EU, and it is actually irrelivant what the novels were based on, they are official. Unless your name is George Lucas you can't simply dismiss the events of these novels when they become inconvienient to your world view, you need to find a real way of disproving the events rather than this cheap cop-out . Otherwise you need to discount EVERYTHING from those novels, while I'm sure that ignoring the events of the X-wing squadrons would be helpful to this debate, it can't be ignored without a real valid reason.

[Dragoon]

Missiles and torpedoes are established as being in the megaton range from the ICS and larger (Slave I missiles and mines) I said that they could be used to attack weak points on a ship, sensors, landing bays, exposed weapons turrets.

Saxton actually based Slave I's firepower off of a comic book.

[Gandalf]

Saxton actually based Slave I's firepower off of a comic book.

And why would he do that? That makes no sense considering he was contracted to write a book detailing the firepower and energy seen in AOTC.

[Dragoon]

Saxton actually based Slave I's firepower off of a comic book.

And why would he do that? That makes no sense considering he was contracted to write a book detailing the firepower and energy seen in AOTC.

You'd have to ask him.

[watchdog]

The claim was that he did not have any frames from the then unfinished movie to go off of so he used the comics, I have the comics and I still dont know what he based his numbers off of (the comics dont show what he claims either).

[Dragoon]

So, it actually DOESN'T override anything. It's on the same level of canon as the books anyway, so how you could claim it overrides them is beyond me.

[Nonamer]

Saxton actually based Slave I's firepower off of a comic book.

And why would he do that? That makes no sense considering he was contracted to write a book detailing the firepower and energy seen in AOTC.

Going by the SW:TC, a significant percentage of his work is based off of comic books and concept art. We've discussed some of his work regarding scaling the DS before on this board, and it turned out some of his estimates came from concept art. He has a very loose definition of canon apparently.